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How loud is a cleric when he is presenting his holy symbol and casting a bless spell?
How loud is a wizard when he is casting a bull strength spell?
How loud is a Bard when he is using his Inspire courage ability (assuming oratory or an instrument)?
Can they be heard on the other side of a wooden door?
Can they be heard down a hall?
I am curious because people often ask if their characters can "buff" before kicking in the door.
What do you all think?
Thanks
How loud is a cleric when he is presenting his holy symbol and casting a bless spell?
How loud is a wizard when he is casting a bull strength spell?
I've always ruled that it is the same as talking. The rules say: "A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice."
How loud is a Bard when he is using his Inspire courage ability (assuming oratory or an instrument)?
An ally must be able to see or hear (as chosen by the bard) the performance. Nothing says a bard can't perform softly, but that also reduces the range that an ally can benefit. For convenience, I typically just assume it is as loud as casting a spell and I haven't heard any complaints yet.
Can they be heard on the other side of a wooden door?
Yes. To hear talking (such as casting a spell) is a DC0 perception check. A closed door increases the DC by 5.
Can they be heard down a hall?
Yes. The DC increases with distance +1 per 10'.
I am curious because people often ask if their characters can "buff" before kicking in the door.
What do you all think?
I give the monsters/NPC a chance to hear. So, typically a DC5 perception check to hear a spell cast on the other side of closed door. I'll usually impose the 'distracted' circumstance modifier as most monsters or NPCs will not be waiting and listening quietly, so that makes it a mere DC10. If they do it at the end of a 50' hall, the difficulty is still only DC15, quite likely. PC need to buff a distance from the door to be safe. And don't forget that time is ticking away as they move forward.
Of course this doesn't give the monster/NPC telepathic powers. They enemy will only know someone is outside casting a spell. They still don't know how many or any other details.
Also when the enemy moves behind the closed the door in reaction the PCs deserve a check to hear them move (or talk/cast spells) too.
Hmm...What if the caster cast defensively? The definition states
Casting Defensively: If you want to cast a spell without provoking any attacks of opportunity, you must make a concentration check (DC 15 + double the level of the spell you're casting) to succeed. You lose the spell if you fail.
It seems to me that Casting Defensively to avoid an AoO might be interpreted as "keeping it on the down low", "hush-hush","On the QT", etc.
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Every group I've ever been in since 3E has always ruled it to be as loud as "a battle": Listen/Perception DC -10.
Or, as one of my favorite DMs demonstrated when an invisible NPC cast a verbal spell, "VERBAL COMPONENT!"
The rules state:
"A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice."
Whether it's SHOUTING level or not, I would think a "strong voice" is at the very least "speaking to a roomful of people" loud, which is louder than normal every day interpersonal speech...except in the case of a!+@~%$s.
So DC of -10 seems more appropriate than a DC of 0 (ie, a conversation).
Hmm...What if the caster cast defensively? The definition states
Casting Defensively: If you want to cast a spell without provoking any attacks of opportunity, you must make a concentration check (DC 15 + double the level of the spell you're casting) to succeed. You lose the spell if you fail.It seems to me that Casting Defensively to avoid an AoO might be interpreted as "keeping it on the down low", "hush-hush","On the QT", etc.
I never thought about it that way. I've always interpreted casting defensively as casting in manner that doesn't let your guard down thus provoking an AoO. i.e. it's not that anyone doesn't notice you're speaking in loud voice, but rather you cast in manner that is not reckless.
I would be a little hesitant to allow it, because I can image the slippery slope of "casting defensively" while invisible or while talking with an NPC to keep him from noticing your trying to put a spell on him. It also steps on Silent Spell a bit.
Casting Defensively does nothing to reduce or eliminate the verbal component. All it does is prevent AoOs. Also I should note that as far as I can tell, swift action spells (which don't provoke) almost universally have verbal but not somatic components. Which goes hand-in-hand with the logical assumption the the motions of the S components have much more to do w/ provoking than speaking in a strong voice. Not that I think casting defensively should remove S components, either, mind you.
Stop trying to buff spellcasters. Seriously, cut it the hell out...
Strong does not necessarily mean loud. You can have a strong whisper, for example. I've always interpreted it as meaning you cannot falter, mumble, or stutter in your words--you must be clear.
Strong does not necessarily mean loud. You can have a strong whisper, for example. I've always interpreted it as meaning you cannot falter, mumble, or stutter in your words--you must be clear.
Yeah, it seems to me that it's more intended that you're able to speak clearly - not gagged or choking. No Klatu Barada Ni*coughcoughcough* allowed.
Strong does not necessarily mean loud. You can have a strong whisper, for example. I've always interpreted it as meaning you cannot falter, mumble, or stutter in your words--you must be clear.
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You have to shout the name of your attacks at the top of your lungs, just like "POWER ATTACK!" and "SMITE EVIL!"
Strong does not necessarily mean loud. You can have a strong whisper, for example. I've always interpreted it as meaning you cannot falter, mumble, or stutter in your words--you must be clear.
That would be more "articulate" or "clear," other adjectives commonly used to describe speech but not used in the Verbal description. "Strong" I think is an indication that it has significant volume so that people a fair distance away can hear you.
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Here's one guy's view of what the term means in real life: link.
In game terms, I think of it as louder than needed to make out the details of conversation (DC 0). I don't think of it in the realm of the sound of battle, which can include screams and the clash of metal on metal (DC -10). DC -5 sounds about right to me.
With the rules being silent on the topic other than those guidelines, I think anything between 0 and -10 are reasonable interpretations. A strong whisper...no.
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I always figured the verbal component for the charisma based casters like Bard and Sorcerer is made very loudly. They're drawing upon their deep well of personal charisma to vocalize or sing out in a dramatic and intimidating manner. I mean lets face it, with all that charisma they're the most entertaining to see in action. Unless of course you're on the bad end of their spell. ;)
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If you allow a bard to use inspire courage quietly, then you should force his allies to make Perception checks as well as the enemies. Not a bad balancing factor, really.
I've always treated Verbal components as being Sounds of Battle-level. It meshes with my fantasy tropes of haughty wizards boldly shouting "DOLAR IGNOMITO PETRODEUS", and I don't see any compelling reason to make them inherently stealthier attackers than sword-swingers even aside from that. They already have access to feats like Silent Spell, after all, but fighters never gain access to a feat like Silent Strike which allows them to strike an enemy soundlessly.
Heck, right now I'm having a squabble with a player about him stealthing and then Concentrating to call bolts from call lightning. He wants to remain undetected the whole time he's attacking. He has a compelling argument -- he doesn't have to move or make a sound -- but it feels contrary to my sense of balance, even if I can whip out "you can't stealth while attacking for some arbitrary reason."
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Much depends of course on whether or not your PC is based on BRIAN BLESSED.
I imagine they can be as quiet as a whisper if so desired. You're not talking to anyone in particular. Just intoning something to the universe.
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I guess there will be lots of opinions about what a "strong" voice means.
As for my own opinion, I do not think a strong voice can be a whisper. I like the idea that it is "details of a conversation" perhaps a little louder level noise.
Most Spell casters i have seen in movies TV series speak fairly loudly when saying the magic words "verbal components" of their spells.
In movies/ television I can think of Gandalf, Zedicus Zul Zorander, Harry Potter, etc, they all with only a few exceptions spoke quite loudly when invoking the magic of their spells.
Thank you all for your thoughts, You have given me a place to start with perception checks.
Thanks
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I guess there will be lots of opinions about what a "strong" voice means.
As for my own opinion, I do not think a strong voice can be a whisper. I like the idea that it is "details of a conversation" perhaps a little louder level noise.
Most Spell casters i have seen in movies TV series speak fairly loudly when saying the magic words "verbal components" of their spells.
In movies/ television I can think of Gandalf, Zedicus Zul Zorander, Harry Potter, etc, they all with only a few exceptions spoke quite loudly when invoking the magic of their spells.
Thank you all for your thoughts, You have given me a place to start with perception checks.
Thanks
What if it's a subtle spell, like invisibility?
Having to scream "I'M GOING INVISIBLE NOW!!!" seems counter productive.
Just a thought. ;-)
Nothing about the invisibility spell suggests the casting of it should differ from how other spells are cast.
If you want to be subtle with your invisibility cast it before you run into whatever you are afraid will see you.
If you are in the middle of combat already, the foe is going to figure out what happened whether you shout it or whisper it.
A stage magician going invisible isn't going to hide the casting - then its all part of the dramatic act - now you see me, now you don't.
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Strong does not necessarily mean loud. You can have a strong whisper, for example. I've always interpreted it as meaning you cannot falter, mumble, or stutter in your words--you must be clear.
Yes : that's why it's not written "loud voice" but "strong voice".
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I think what many of you are describing is what modern actors call "resonance", a talent cultivated by actors with great presence (especially stage actors) so that they may project their voices even when speaking quietly. An audience member in the back of the room can hear Patrick Stewart when he whispers, for example.
This idea lends itself to the idea that in magic, one speaks deliberately and with a Force of Will, uttering what they will into existence. (At least, that's how I'm imagining it). Similarly, the principle with the use of wands is to point and deliberate in an act of Will "THIS thing right HERE!"
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Nothing about the invisibility spell suggests the casting of it should differ from how other spells are cast.
If you want to be subtle with your invisibility cast it before you run into whatever you are afraid will see you.
If you are in the middle of combat already, the foe is going to figure out what happened whether you shout it or whisper it.
A stage magician going invisible isn't going to hide the casting - then its all part of the dramatic act - now you see me, now you don't.
Invisibility may or may not be a good example. The point is that certain spells are designed to be subtle and screaming out incantations is counter indicated.
How about Suggestion and/or charm person as an example.
"These aren't the droids you're looking for."
Vs.
"THESE AREN'T THE DROIDS YOU'RE LOOKING FOR!!"
Both are spoken with conviction, but the latter would make bystanders stare which would defeat the intent of the spell.
DC 0 to hear the details of a conversation. I like that as a starting point, since that's how loud I imagine spellcasting needs to be. Sure, I can shout spells for a DC -10 if I'm excited, but DC 0 sounds good in general.
+5 for the door, possibly a +10 if it's a heavy metal door.
+5 for the enemies being distracted
+1/10ft, so probably +2 for distance, on average.
So a DC 12 perception check for an enemy to hear you buffing before entering? Here's what I would do as a DM if I cared to enforce this. If the goblin or whatever doesn't hear you, then he's still unaware and you can continue prepping or you can open the door and burst in as your surprise round (obviously, whoever opens the door doesn't get to move in more than 5 ft, since opening the door was their surprise action). If he hears you, casting the spell IS your surprise round, and we roll initiative. The goblin, if he goes first, will probably spend his turn getting some cover, higher ground, or drawing his weapon.
I know that was off of the main topic, but I think it was still relevant.
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What if it's a subtle spell, like invisibility?
Having to scream "I'M GOING INVISIBLE NOW!!!" seems counter productive.
Just a thought. ;-)
Also why the Ventriloquism spell is useless without Silent Spell. "Hey! Listen to that noise over there!"
Re: bardic performance, the answer is Message; whisper your heroic ditties to 1 ally/ level!
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I think what many of you are describing is what modern actors call "resonance", a talent cultivated by actors with great presence (especially stage actors) so that they may project their voices even when speaking quietly. An audience member in the back of the room can hear Patrick Stewart when he whispers, for example.
This idea lends itself to the idea that in magic, one speaks deliberately and with a Force of Will, uttering what they will into existence. (At least, that's how I'm imagining it). Similarly, the principle with the use of wands is to point and deliberate in an act of Will "THIS thing right HERE!"
This is how I've always thought of it. Strong does not always equal loud. It seems to me that "strong" is speaking in a way that cannot be misconstrued by the laws of Physics when you tell them to shut up and go sit in the corner.
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Strong does not necessarily mean loud. You can have a strong whisper, for example....
Nope, don't need to add anything.
Edit: Is there anything you can't read to minimize weaknesses for players? It is remarkable.
I believe there are some goose/gander references to make here for GM evilness.
What if it's a subtle spell, like invisibility?
Having to scream "I'M GOING INVISIBLE NOW!!!" seems counter productive.
Just a thought. ;-)
Not at all. You scream I'm going invisible and then you're invisible. Until you move everyone knows where you are, both before and after being invisible. They do however have a 50% miss chance vs you, and loose their dex to AC, etc. Saying it softly versus loudly makes no difference mid-battle. The only time it matters is if you're far away and trying to avoid being caught. And then, there is still the silent metamagic feat or rod. You did remember to buy metamagic rods right? Every wizard has one.
I do find it weird that people are taking strong to mean something other than at least conversation loud. I would say at minimum it has to be as loud as your regular speaking voice, and would had a perception DC of 0, +1 for every 10 ft away, other modifiers, etc.
For point of reference, any time you've heard a stage magician say "Al akazaam!"
That's a verbal component in a strong voice.
Here's one guy's view of what the term means in real life: link.
Heh, when I think of a strong voice, I think of Phil Davison :D
But yeah, -5 seems reasonable, too. Just definitely not DC 0.
Spell Components: To cast a spell with a verbal (V) component, your character must speak in a firm voice.
Verbal (V): A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice.
So, in the developper's mind, those two must have the same meaning. Neither Firm nor Strong mean Loud. It is more similar to Steady, Resolute, ...
As a read it, you could even whisper it, as long as you prononce it with a firm voice. Merlin anyone ? (the series that ended a few months ago).
Always treated it as a clear strong voice.
Not a whisper, not a shout.
Clear, firm, normal talking voice.
In a normal room, everyone can hear you, and would turn to look at you.
In a battle field, you might get ignored, as the clang of steel, and the warrior/barbarian, battle cry's get shouted all over the place. The cry's of pain & death echo around, as people get injured and dyeing. === walking around in a red robe and pointy hat, in a battle field would negate the getting ignored part tho :)===
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It depends on the GM really.
One GM of mine would allow spells to be cast in front of people covertly. The idea was that outside of combat a spellcaster could take more time to cast a spell and hide the components more easily. In this case, it wasn't a Perception check but a Spellcraft check. If they couldn't identify the spell, they didn't realize you were casting one. Things were treated differently in combat because the spellcaster doesn't have time to be subtle and is more obvious in casting spells. Essentially, the casting time was considered a minimum and taking longer outside of combat allowed for components to be used more covertly.
He also allowed my spellcaster to cast spells while hidden by rolling a Stealth check with a -10 to my roll.
Another GM ruled that spellcasting was always obvious, even with a full compliment of Metamagic feats that removed vocal and somatic components. Enemies didn't need any type of check to identify that you were casting a spell, only to identify the spell you were casting.
One GM of mine would allow spells to be cast in front of people covertly. The idea was that outside of combat a spellcaster could take more time to cast a spell and hide the components more easily. In this case, it wasn't a Perception check but a Spellcraft check. If they couldn't identify the spell, they didn't realize you were casting one. Things were treated differently in combat because the spellcaster doesn't have time to be subtle and is more obvious in casting spells.
Yes ! Even if you're a dick in bluff, just mixing verbal component with normal speaking ("In the Feslerin tribe language, we used to talk about 'GARIN TESSELARIO' when we wanted to ...") is enough to hide that you're casting a spell. Of course, anyone can tell that you are lying or hiding something (you're a dick in bluff and you're likely to have dumped charisma, remember ?), but no one without spellcraft will notice that you're casting a spell, because they can't recognize that it is a verbal component.
Well, you also have to deal with the gestual component, but you can do almost the same anyway...
I think that too many of you think that anyone in the world know how magic works (components, targets, ...). Spellcraft is a trained only skill (and almost no one invest in it except casters) and knowledge arcana is never a DC 10 skill check.
Always treated it as a clear strong voice.
Not a whisper, not a shout.
Clear, firm, normal talking voice.
In a normal room, everyone can hear you, and would turn to look at you.
In a battle field, you might get ignored, as the clang of steel, and the warrior/barbarian, battle cry's get shouted all over the place. The cry's of pain & death echo around, as people get injured and dyeing. === walking around in a red robe and pointy hat, in a battle field would negate the getting ignored part tho :)===
This is how my groups have done the verbal component. I get trying to find way to tweak a rule or something in your favor, but reading strong or firm as 'it can be a whisper' is a stretch.
This is how my groups have done the verbal component. I get trying to find way to tweak a rule or something in your favor, but reading strong or firm as 'it can be a whisper' is a stretch
Except that you can be firm and whisper : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXbacXgHItA
I must remember to firmly and strongly but silently mouth the verbal component. Or I could buy the silent spell doohicky.
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It should be noted that AoO from casting spells probably do not come from someone recognizing you are casting a spell, but from you taking your focus from defending yourself in order to cast a spell. The concentration check to cast defensively means that you putting your focus on two things at once.
An ingenious GM would stop telling his players that the enemies are casting spells. Instead, he just mentions that the guy in the back states some clear syllables and makes some motions. If the spell has visual and obvious effects, those could be described as well, but otherwise just let your players become paranoid enough to start taking ranks in Spellcraft. Double points if you have non-spellcasters do it just to draw the parties attention away from actual spellcasters.
My point: While casting spells can be considered obvious, not all spells have obvious effects and should require successful Spellcraft checks to identify. Stop giving away that your enemy just cast a buff on themselves versus a subtle spell like damp powder on your gunslinger's gun.
To actually answer the question: No actual answer can be found in the rulebooks and has been debated to death. I personally recommend a range of Perception DCs from -10 to 10, set by the GM and based on the situation and conditions.
You can see an example of what my GM did above. If you want, you could have someone do a concentration check out of combat to try and be subtle, which doesn't seem unreasonable to me but isn't based on any actual rule in a book.
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Spell Components: To cast a spell with a verbal (V) component, your character must speak in a firm voice.Verbal (V): A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice.So, in the developper's mind, those two must have the same meaning. Neither Firm nor Strong mean Loud. It is more similar to Steady, Resolute, ...
...Dude.
A strong voice isn't a whisper. If I said "He spoke in a strong voice" you aren't reasonably going to ask me if he whispered.
A firm voice isn't a whisper. If I said "He spoke firmly" you aren't reasonably going to ask me if he whispered.
You have to be looking for reason to get around what it is actually saying to believe that "Whisper" means the same as "Strong" or "Firm"
Which is what many of us think is the underlying problem.
Read the rules for intent, not as you wish they could be interpreted to get the most benefit.
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I will make a note that outside sources referring to spellcasters tend to display them as 'singing' or babbling 'speak with tongues' style.
And the verbal component for invisibility isn't nearly as bad when you don't cast it right in front of the guy.
For divine spells, I've always viewed them as the opposite of subtle. Incurring the power of a divinity tends to be impressive. Either its shouts of 'FEEL THE PURGING FLAME OF PELOR!' or even stuff like long drawn out prayers spoken rapidly.
I do admit that I tend to play the verbal component of my sleep spell on my PFS character as him pointing at the enemy and intoning in a bad transylvanian accent, "SLEEEEP!"
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As I said earlier, the magician's "presto" and "al a kazaam" are a strong, clear voice. As corny as it is, it is the best explanation of what a verbal component needs to be. It isn't ever screamed or yelled, as far as I've seen. Whispering it would be weird.
Honestly, people, if volume didn't matter, why say anything about it in the rules? Volume was very probably an intended balancing factor in the rules. If you're coming to argue that point, you'd best have a very strong, clear argument.
Obviously you need to defer to your GM, because some people are going to try and weasel different meanings out of it. The more that happens, the more important the GM's ruling is.