I realize that a character built around sundering is not popular due to the destruction of loot but I wanted to get some general advice on this concept.
Reign of Winter adventure path
Human Paladin multi-classed into Fighter for feats and weapon training
Blood of Giants trait (+1 to CMB for Sunder)
Power Attack
Improved Sunder
Greater Sunder
Weapon Focus--Warhammer
Weapon Specialization--Warhammer
Weapon Training--Hammers
Possible use of the Warhammer as a holy symbol of Torag
PRD materials only.
Any great suggestions for improving this concept beyond Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization?
Thank you, one and all.
I'm guessing "PRD materials only" means no 3rd party stuff? Or do you mean core only?
If it's the first then I'd take the Smashing Style feat to gain a free Trip/Bull Rush with your sunder attempts.
Don't forget to get an Adamantine weapon as soon as possible.
Oh. Oops. Forgot to put in the Adamantine part. And yes, PRD only means no third party stuff. If we don't have a physical copy of the book, the GM likes to be able to pull up the PRD on his cell phone. Saves a lot of argument due to interpretation that way.
Two-Handed Weapon Trick for Crush Armor.
All 4 of the Cleave feats: so as one standard action you can Cleave/Sunder their weapon, and then their shield, and then their armor... always applying the excess damage to them via Great Sunder... finally Cleave/Attack their body.
At least 2 of the Vital Strike feats, because Weapon Trick allows you to use Vital Strike with Cleave!
If you have a good Intimidate bonus, try squeezing in Cornugon Smash and Hurtful, and put the Cruel enchantment on your weapon to make them Shaken (for free) with Cornugon Smash, hit them (for free) via Hurtful with your Cruel weapon making them Sickened, and if any of this was a Sunder to their armor, they are Fatigued from Weapon Trick/Crush Armor.
This only gets better with a reach weapon.
Hmmm. Interesting concept at least. However, I copied and pasted this directly from the PRD covering the Core Rulebook.
Cleave (Combat)
You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
But this says to make an attack against a FOE. How do you justify the weapon/shield/armor as being a foe? Most people I know would tell you it only applies to their body.
Cleaving Finish says "target"...
Prerequisites: Str 13, Cleave, Power Attack.
Benefit: If you make a melee attack, and your target drops to 0 or fewer hit points as a result of your attack, you can make another melee attack using your highest base attack bonus against another opponent within reach. You can make only one extra attack per round with this feat.
And honestly, it's a concept that I found somewhere in these forums, it is not an original of mine.
It just is awesome if it works, however it leaves zero useable loot when you are done with the person.
VoodistMonk wrote: Cleaving Finish says "target"...
Prerequisites: Str 13, Cleave, Power Attack.
Benefit: If you make a melee attack, and your target drops to 0 or fewer hit points as a result of your attack, you can make another melee attack using your highest base attack bonus against another opponent within reach. You can make only one extra attack per round with this feat.
And honestly, it's a concept that I found somewhere in these forums, it is not an original of mine.
It just is awesome if it works, however it leaves zero useable loot when you are done with the person.
I agree it would work great provided that I accept the fact that I'm destroying all of the loot. It would even work great if I was sundering a holy symbol, spell component pouch or spellbook. I'm just not sold on using cleave in conjunction with sunder. Even in your posting above, it still says MELEE ATTACK. But sundering works under the CMB/CMD rules. While CMB vs. CMD can be substituted for a melee attack, is it a melee attack by it's own right? I admit I'm still new to pathfinder but I'm not sure sundering qualifies for cleave in general.
The following is copied from PRD:
Sunder
You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack. If you do not have the Improved Sunder feat, or a similar ability, attempting to sunder an item provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
If your attack is successful, you deal damage to the item normally. Damage that exceeds the object's Hardness is subtracted from its hit points. If an object has equal to or less than half its total hit points remaining, it gains the broken condition (see Conditions). If the damage you deal would reduce the object to less than 0 hit points, you can choose to destroy it. If you do not choose to destroy it, the object is left with only 1 hit point and the broken condition.
I think a Sundering build would really benefit from a customized magic item.
Take Master Craftsman, and take Craft Magic Arms and Armor. Maybe take Craft Wondrous Item, too: ask your GM.
Your magic item will be an Adamantine Earthbreaker that combines the Shatterspike and 'of the Titans dweomers.
The rules for this are described in crafting magic items, paritial enchantments, and combining enchantments .
Get yourself an Earthbreaker: 40gp
made out of Adanamtine: + 3000
Enchant it to +1: +2000
Add the Shatterspike Enchantment: a Shatterspike is a +1 longsword that does an extra +3 Attack and Damagem when used to Sunder by someone with Improved Sunder. The marked price is 4315. 15gp for a longsword, 300 for Masterwork, 2000 for +1, so that means that +3 for Sundering part costs 2000gp. At this point, it's just a Shatterspike but on an Adamantine Earthbreaker instead of a masterwork longsword.
Add the 'of the Titans Enchantment: A Maul of the Titans is a +3 Greatclub that does triple damage vs. inanimate objects. It costs 25,305gp. 5 for a Greatclub, 300 for Masterwork, 18000 for +3, making that triple damage thing cost 7000gp.
Combining enchantments is legal, but adding the new enchantment costs and extra 50%. So adding the 'of the Titans costs 10500gp, unless you add that first. Adding the Shatterspike Enchantment 2nd instead of first costs 3000gp instead of 2000, then.
Technically, both magic items have special flaws an limitations, so the real price of the enchantments should be 10/9 the listed price unless you include special flaws and limitations, too. Otherwise, the Shatterspike should cost 2222gp, 2sp, and 3cp, and the 'of the Titans enchantment should cost 7777gp, 7sp, and 8cp, because sure, the authors totally follow their own rules when pricing these items.
Anyway, having the proper tool for the job will give you a great force multiplier.
An Earthbreaker is more in keeping with the theme, but an Excecutioner's Axe does more damage. It is an Exotic Weapon, too.
Toolbag wrote: Oh. Oops. Forgot to put in the Adamantine part. And yes, PRD only means no third party stuff. If we don't have a physical copy of the book, the GM likes to be able to pull up the PRD on his cell phone. Saves a lot of argument due to interpretation that way. Too bad you can't take any 3.5 Feats.
Well, if you enjoy Sundering, there's little better you can do than play a Steel-Breaker Brawler, have you considered that?
VoodistMonk wrote: All 4 of the Cleave feats: so as one standard action you can Cleave/Sunder their weapon, and then their shield, and then their armor... always applying the excess damage to them via Great Sunder... finally Cleave/Attack their body. Since we are already talking about taking Great Sunder, we are also taking Power Attack. If we are taking Power Attack, Cleave Feats make a whole lot of sense.
VoodistMonk wrote: At least 2 of the Vital Strike feats, because Weapon Trick allows you to use Vital Strike with Cleave! Definetly, Vital Strike Feats, too, combines with 1 big weapon.
Also, Furious Focus.
How about Felling Smash and Pushing Assault while you are at it?
There are those Half Orc Follow Through Feats. If you are going to be a Half Orc, your GM might allow that Butchering Axe to work with your Weapon Familiarity, since the description of it says it is an orcish weapon, but technically, it does not have "Orc" in its's name, so technically not. But it doesn't hurt to ask your GM. Of course, you might as well ask the GM if Dwarf Weapon Familiarity will allow you to use the Butchering Axe, since it's an Axe
VoodistMonk wrote: If you have a good Intimidate bonus, try squeezing in Cornugon Smash and Hurtful, and put the Cruel enchantment on your weapon to make them Shaken (for free) with Cornugon Smash, hit them (for free) via Hurtful with your Cruel weapon making them Sickened, and if any of this was a Sunder to their armor, they are Fatigued from Weapon Trick/Crush Armor. If the OP is sticking with Paladin, he will surely have a lovely Intimidate Bonus since Paladins and Intimidate are both Charisma Based.
If I were him, though, I'd consider being a Fighter, at least mostly. The 2 handed Fighter abilities go especially well with Sundering.
That being said, I really like the Paladin Spell Swift Girding. I also like Broken Wing Gambit, so the Holy Tactician Paladin Archetype is cool. So is Inquisitor. Solo Tactics + Bane: yummy.
VoodistMonk wrote: Cleaving Finish says "target"... You are a bad person. You are going to corrupt me.
IF it actually works, it is smooth as silk, destroying one target at a time (and all its gear at as a standard action)...
1. Weapon is destroyed, excess damage goes to the wielder...
2. Shield is destroyed, excess damage goes to the wielder...
3. Armor is destroyed, excess damage goes to the wielder...
4. Last, attack the wielder with full damage. This is actually #3. if they didn't have a shield.
With Intimidate/Cornugon Smash/Hurtful options and a Cruel weapon: they are beaten bloody, completely disarmed/naked, Sickened and Fatigued...
If you start with a reach weapon and the Cleave feats, it all makes sense. Work into Vital Strike for when Cleave isn't an option. Grab Weapon Trick, oh $#!+, now Vital Strike and Cleave work together, nice!
Cornugon Smash and Hurtful are super helpful with reach and a good Intimidate check...
Suddenly I want to Sunder, and LOOK WHAT I CAN DO as soon as you pick up Great Sunder AND Weapon Trick...
I, personally/literally, right meow, have an NPC character using this exact example as a 2H-Fighter archetype Fighter, Centaur as an NPC in my Kingmaker campaign... currently.
Actually, the Earth Breaker wouldn't be bad but for one thing. The warhammer is the favored weapon of Torag and is therefore eligible for the possibility of using it as a holy symbol which would allow channeling/smiting through the warhammer. Blah, blah, blah...you get the idea even if I'm not stating it very well.
Toolbag wrote: Actually, the Earth Breaker wouldn't be bad but for one thing. The warhammer is the favored weapon of Torag and is therefore eligible for the possibility of using it as a holy symbol which would allow channeling/smiting through the warhammer. Blah, blah, blah...you get the idea even if I'm not stating it very well. Well, the enchantment package would work with Warhammer, too. Which to choose is a sticky wicket: Earthbreakers do more damage. Warhammer will let you channel energy through your deity's preferred weapon. I guess your GM if Earthbreaker counts as a Warhammer enough for your Deity. Or you can ask him about Deities in his campaign that use Earthbreakers.
If you could figure out how to grow sufficiently big, your could base your Platform on a Mattock of the Titans, and combine the above enchantments from there. But I don't even know how your GM would adjudicate that.
Yeah. I think we're in agreement. I will look into the Shatterspike enchantment but I think it will all come down to personal preference. My original intent was the warhammer because it is the favored weapon of Torag. But at the same time, there really aren't that many undead in the Reign of Winter adventure path so the hammer as a channeling/smiting holy symbol might not be that effective.
IF you don't want to destroy the loot, you either need to have a GM who is willing to provide "extra loot" to make up for it, or a method of repair. That usually means a caster who has make whole/greater make whole, but for some stuff you can get away with mending and a day off to cast it enough.
Remember, you can CHOOSE to destroy the item or just leave it at 1hp. Sure you don't get the flow thru damage from Greater Sunder, but you also don't technically LOSE the loot.
Ninjamancer wrote: IF you don't want to destroy the loot, you either need to have a GM who is willing to provide "extra loot" to make up for it, or a method of repair. That usually means a caster who has make whole/greater make whole, but for some stuff you can get away with mending and a day off to cast it enough.
Remember, you can CHOOSE to destroy the item or just leave it at 1hp. Sure you don't get the flow thru damage from Greater Sunder, but you also don't technically LOSE the loot.
Like a Fabricate Spell or Lyre of Building.
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