|
Arcane bond + being attacked by a construct with a gun? Weirder things have happened, even at 1st level. (Wood golem dual wielding shields?)
You learn all possible spells because you never know.
damp ammo only stops one round of attack, so golem just charges and smashes you or something.
Seems like you would make a pit, or grease, or mirror image, or some other thing
Probably.
But next week your facing another odd circumstance, the week after another and so on. A good game master is going to throw stuff at you outside your comfort zone.
Unless your playing Schrodinger's wizard at the table. (A PRC I would be amused to see outside of half-elven oracles/sorcerers)
|
|
You may issue your apology any time.To reasonably be able to cast all core wizard spells at level 20 you need to set aside 115,910gp. Have fun with that number.
:)
Citation on that amount cause it's crap.
That would require 115 spells with 1k in expensive components, or 11 spells with 10k in expensive components.That is 45 spells, of which only 30 explicitly have material costs over 250 gp.
It is also a 3.5 reference. I'm not sure how many have had component cost updated.
First off, the specific number of spells is irrelevant, AS called Peter out based off his listed total price. Which is correct, as my link demonstrates.
Secondly, you bothered to make a claim about it being 3.5 without checking? Why would this make any sense? The man used Pathfinder to provide these numbers. Shadowsoul's point about symbols only increases the total value. On the other hand, a minor oversight hardly dismisses the work that went into generating the value. The missing spells and underrated costs only strengthens the argument against the Shrowiz and further buries Abraham's spurious claim.
Neither person was entirely correct, or entirely wrong. There are, in fact, far few than 100 spells with significant cost, but 2/3 of those spells have costs above 250 instead of below.
The post itself is listed in a sub-forum devoted to 3E D&D, not Pathfinder.
I shouldn't let myself get sucked into this, but I'm just amazed that no one has brought up the classic trio for dealing with casters--Dimensional Anchor (no save), Silence cast on something held by an ally who moves into close range (no save), and grapple attacks for the attempted pin. It's hardly an infallible trio, but it is the bare minimum starting point a caster should expect to face from opponentsParanoid wizards plan for those specific counters. The solutions vary but do exist. My personal favorite is the 6 permanently summoned Elder Negative Energy Elementals my conjurer gets as a class ability. Yay, you caught me. Have you met my friends?
Your non-Core Rule friends are...nice. Mind you, I'm not entirely sure how you got 6 creatures off the 8th level Summon Monster list with a Summon Monster IX, but I admit I've never played conjurers at that level and assume there probably ARE feats/abilities that'll get you more than the 5 I can easily envision from just the Superior Summoning feat and a Greater Rod of Empower Spell. Still, if we're talking about a 20th level conjurer, that does open up more attacker options (I was sticking to the low level stuff before). Just before the Silenced grappler moves in, you can clear away the riff-raff with a Holy Word or two (or after, as Silence does not block the banishing effect of that spell).
Naturally, yes, I know there are counters. I like playing wizards myself and when I'm playing the paranoid type, they futilely try to prepare these counters. They invariably take the feat Silence Spell, because rods cannot always be counted upon (e.g., if you're paralyzed or grappled). There are, in fact, counters to any single attack that can be used, but it doesn't really matter. No wizard with standard WBL will have them ALL ready to hand. And even when they are ready to hand, they aren't always guaranteed. A contingent Teleport, even when it goes off and isn't somehow blocked, can still sometimes take you somewhere you don't want to go. Dispel Magic doesn't always work. Break Enchantment is good, but not universal. Precast Wishes don't automatically counter all high level magics (such as the Imprisonment spells mentioned earlier in the thread) and also count heavily against your character's WBL. If your wizard is turned into an undead creature (via a swarm of shadows or an evil spell), your wizard's prepared clone will never wake up, even if we assume that Clone spells do work to bring back the dead (I actually think they normally do, but I admit it's a grey area looking at RAW). A ranged Plane Shift spell is fairly unlikely to work on a powerful wizard (as Will save negates), but unless you can guarantee that you will never ever fail a will save, it can put you in a magic dead prison plane (something that can actually be created with a spell) containing non-magic-using guards that your PC will have little chance of escaping (and your summoned creatures won't be there to keep you company).
Meanwhile, while the super-paranoid wouldbe Schrodinger wizard is devoting this much time and effort to personal defense, other wizards are actually getting things done.
So for those who wanted to know how much it would cost for a wizard to cast all the spells, here you go:
Core Rule Book:
Spell Cost *non-wizard
Analyze Dweamer 1500
Animate Dead 25 per HD
Arcane Lock 25
Astral Projection 1000
Atonement* 500 +2500
Augury* 50
Awaken* 2000
Binding 500 100
Bless Water 25
Circle of Death 500
Cloak of Chaos 500
Clone 1500
Commune* 500
Concencrate* 25
Contingency 1500
Continual Flame 50
Create Undead 50 per HD
Curse Water* 25
Desecrate* 25
Destruction* 500
Divination* 25
False Vision 250
Fire Trap 25
Forbiddance* 1500 +1500 per 60ft cube
Force Cage 500
Gate 10000
Glyph of Warding 200
GoW, Greater 400
Hallow* 1000 +1000 per level
Holy Aura* 500
Illusory Script 50
Instant Summons 1000
Legend Lore 450
Limited Wish 1500
Mage's Magnificent Mansion 5
Mages Sword 250
Magic Jar 100
Magic Mouth 10
Miracle* 25000
Mnemonic Enhancer 50
Nondetection 50
Permanency 22500
Phantom Trap 50
Planar Ally* 1250
PA, Greater 2500 +1000 per HD per day
PA, Lesser* 500
Programmed Image 25
Project Image 5
Prot from Spells 1500
Raise Dead 5000
Reincarnate* 1000
Repulsion 50
Restoration* 1000
Restoration, Greater* 5000
Resurection* 10000
Scrying 1000
Secure Chest 5050
Sepia Snake Sigil 500
Shape Change 1500
Shield of Law* 500
Shield Other* 50
Simulacrum 500 per HD
Soul Bind 1000
Stone Sking 250
Symbol of Death 10000
Symbol of Fear 1000
Symbol of Insanity 5000
Symbol of Pain 1000
Symbol of persuasion 5000
Symbol of Sleep 1000
Symbol of Stunning 5000
Symbol of Weakness 5000
Sympathy 1500
Teleportation Circle 1000
Temporal Stasis 5000
Trap the Soul 1000
True Resurection* 25000
True Seeing 250
Undeath to Death 500
Unhallow* 1000 +1000 per level
Unholy Aura* 500
Wall of Iron 50
Wish 25000
Total:
Wizard Spells - 128,220
Non-Wizard Spells - 80,075
Advanced Players Guide
Acid Pit 10
Create Pit 10
Create Treasure Map 100
Detonate 50
Elude Time 500
Nap Stack 100
Resurgent Transformation 100
Sacred Bond 100
Sleepwalk 100
Spite 250
Stumble Gap 10
Threefold Aspect 5
Transmorgrify 1000
Treasure Stitching 100
Universal Formula 100
Unwilling Shield 250
Wall of Supression 1000
Total
Wizard - 2,030
Non-Wizard - 1,755
Ultimate Combat
Spell Cost
Arcane Cannon 5000
Fabricate Bullets 2
Nondetection, Communal 25 per target
Pellet Blast 100
Stoneskin, Communal 100
Symbol of Striking 300
Telekinetic Assembly 10
Wealth of Blades 2000
Total
Wizard - 7,537
Non-Wizard - 0
Ultimate Magic
Spell Cost
Acidic Spray 10
Call Construct 5000
Circle of Clarity 100
Conjure Black Pudding 10
Create Demiplane, Lesser 500
Create Demiplane 500
Create Demiplane, Greater 500
Circle of Magic Negation 250
Cursed Earth 10000
Holy Ice 25
Malicious Spite 150
Masterwork Transformation 300
Orb of the Void 50
Raise Animal Companion 1000
Restore Eidolon 1000
Sanctify Corpse 500
Simulacrum, Lesser 50
Symbol of Healing 500
Symbol of Mirroring 100
Symbol of Revelation 1000
Symbol of Scrying 1000
Symbol of Sealing 5000
Symbol of Slowing 1000
Synmbol of Strife 15000
Symbol of Vulnerability 15000
Temporary Resurrection 500
Transmute Blood to Acid 10
Unbreakable Construct 100
Unholy Ice 25
Total
Wizard - 56,130
Non-Wizard - 3,050
Combined Totals:
All Wizard Spells - 193,917
All Non-Wizard Spells - 84,880
All Spells - 278,797
+5 for a Spell Component Pouch to cover all the rest. :)
Edit:
Notes
1) This list does not include the +gp costs of any of the spells listed.
2) This list does not include the cost of learning spells or buying/creating scrolls.
Edit 2:
Spell cost errors corrected.
Add 77,000 to the total costs for the assumption that all +gp per HD, Level spells are cast at 20. Note that some spells would still increase the cost because they are +gp per target or per range increase.
Neither person was entirely correct, or entirely wrong. There are, in fact, far few than 100 spells with significant cost, but 2/3 of those spells have costs above 250 instead of below.
The post itself is listed in a sub-forum devoted to 3E D&D, not Pathfinder.
I never said there were 100 spells with significant cost. I never made any claims to that effect. I posted a number - which was wrong not because it was too high, but because it was too low.
I had my number called 'crap' and had 'shinanigans' declared on me without either of you bothering to do even a cursory back check of the information. You both made superfluous claims which were demonstrably wrong. Why is this hard to own up to?
Edit: Minor corrections in light of the fact that I confused Abraham Spalding and Artanthos.
Neither person was entirely correct, or entirely wrong. There are, in fact, far few than 100 spells with significant cost, but 2/3 of those spells have costs above 250 instead of below.
The post itself is listed in a sub-forum devoted to 3E D&D, not Pathfinder.
I never said there were 100 spells with significant cost. You did. I never made any claims to that effect. I posted a number - which was wrong not because it was too high, but because it was too low.
You called my number 'crap' and declared 'shinanigans' on me without bothering to do even a cursory back check of the information. You made superfluous claims which were demonstrably wrong. Why is this hard to own up to?
Minor point of order, Abraham Spalding did that. Artanthos defended Abraham when I pointed out Spalding was incorrect. Art was misreading, I think, that Spalding's main argument was about 100 spells having 1k gp costs, when it was in fact, about the total.
bookrat
Your totals assume minimum hit dice when cast on something, yes? E.g. Animate dead, binding, ect? I ask, because the cost for many of these spells is based on hit dice. Trap the soul is 1,000 per hit die, not 1,000, binding is 500 per hit die (and so forth).
My total assumes you are casting spells on 20HD opponents (at 20th level) - which might be generous to the wizard.
|
So for those who wanted to know how much it would cost for a wizard to cast all the spells, here you go:
Core Rule Book:
Spell Cost *non-wizard
Analyze Dweamer 1500
Animate Dead 25 per HD
Arcane Lock 25
Astral Projection 1000
Atonement* 500 +2500
Augury* 50
Awaken* 2000
Binding 500 100
Bless Water 25
Circle of Death 500
Cloak of Chaos 500
Clone 1500
Commune* 500
Concencrate* 25
Contingency 1500
Continual Flame 50
Create Undead 50 per HD
Curse Water* 25
Desecrate* 25
Destruction* 500
Divination* 25
False Vision 250
Fire Trap 25
Forbiddance* 1500 +1500 per 60ft cube
Force Cage 500
Gate 10000
Glyph of Warding 200
GoW, Greater 400
Hallow* 1000 +1000 per level
Holy Aura* 500
Illusory Script 50
Instant Summons 1000
Legend Lore 450
Limited Wish 1500
Mage's Magnificent Mansion 5
Mages Sword 250
Magic Jar 100
Magic Mouth 10
Miracle* 25000
Mnemonic Enhancer 50
Nondetection 50
Permanency 22500
Phantom Trap 50
Planar Ally* 1250
PA, Greater 2500 +1000 per HD per day
PA, Lesser* 500
Programmed Image 25
Project Image 5
Prot from Spells 1500
Raise Dead 5000
Reincarnate* 1000
Repulsion 50
Restoration* 1000
Restoration, Greater* 5000
Resurection* 10000
Scrying 1000
Secure Chest 5050
Sepia Snake Sigil 500
Shape Change 1500
Shield of Law* 500
Shield Other* 50
Simulacrum 500 per HD
Soul Bind 1000
Stone Sking 250
Symbol of Death 5000
Symbol of Fear 1000
Symbol of Insanity 5000
Symbol of Pain 1000
Symbol of persuasion 5000
Symbol of Sleep 1000
Symbol of Stunning 5000
Symbol of Weakness 5000
Sympathy 1500
Teleportation Circle 1000
Temporal Stasis 5000
Trap the Soul 1000
True Resurection* 25000
True Seeing 250
Undeath to Death 500
Unhallow* 1000 +1000 per level
Unholy Aura* 500
Wall of Iron 50
Wish 25000
Total:
Wizard Spells - 123,220
Non-Wizard Spells - 80,075...
Your Symbol prices are incorrect.
Summoned Monsters can't enter or strike into an AMF, either.
The 'wizard hat trick' only works with DM fiat.
1, Shrink Item doesn't encompass enough volume until extremely high levels to pull the trick off, at least without a Widen Spell.
2, assuming your new emnation-interrupting enclosure is going to settle down perfectly around you, and not crash down on your shoulder, fall over behind you (wizard hats point backwards, remember?) is a huge stretch of the imagination.
3) The fighter/AMF wielder will likely get an AoO to either catch the enclosure as it expands and drops, or simply lever it aside.
4) You're probably going to use Polymorph Any Object, if only for the duration.
5) It's susceptible to random dispelling, which could be really annoying.
Ravingdork, a Contingency only responds to effects...it has no way of telling if you were rendered unconscious 'against your will'. Or, to put it another way, why would it not trigger if you committed suicide before something terrible happened to you (like, an unrecoverable body)? You're asking the spell to make a judgement call, which requires intelligence...something the spell does not have.
You have, in effect, a condition to the conditional trigger, which I'm pretty sure is not allowed for the spell. The spell has no way of judging your intent if something happens to you.
Secondly, it has absolutely no way of telling what the 'nearest temple to your god' is. It's not a divination spell, and it's not intelligent. It goes off with a defined target at the moment of being triggered...as if you are casting it at that moment, NOT as if you cast it with a target days before. Only Word of Recall auto-ports you to a pre-programmed location...it's the unique nature of that spell. Teleport does NOT have that wording, nor does Contingency modify it.
In other words, RD, that wording and the spell attached to it both do not work...which is fairly standard for how people use Contingency.
==+Aelryinth
|
What Ravingdork speaks of is true. You can block an anti-magic field using the shrink-item trick on, for instance, a teepee, or any construction that would provide you with a full cover enclosure. It is in fact a really good trick, also it is completely legal.-Nearyn
You finding a GM who allows it isn't the same thing as it being legal.
By this logic, many spells are powerless against anyone wearing a burka...
|
|
Your non-Core Rule friends are...nice. Mind you, I'm not entirely sure how you got 6 creatures off the 8th level Summon Monster list with a Summon Monster IX, but I admit I've never played conjurers at that level and assume there probably ARE be feats that'll get you more than the 5 I can easily envision from just the Superior Summoning feat and a Greater Rod of Empower Spell. Still, if we're talking about a 20th level conjurer, that does open up more attacker options (I was sticking to the low level stuff before). Just before the Silenced grappler moves in, you can clear away the riff-raff with a Holy Word or two (or after, as Silence does not block the banishing effect of that spell).
Most of the arguments and tactics involve really high level resources, so I build at level 20 for this type of argument. Low level, the melee wins on the charge + grapple. Even without the feat, he'll just eat the AoO.
While not in the Beastiary I or CRB, the negative energy elementals are Paizo monsters. If we start excluding published material, we can shape how effective any given class is by careful selection of which material is and is not permitted.
Eldritch Heritage can be used to increase the number of certain summons.
The number is set ahead of time with the assumption I can just recast the spell until I get a maximum summon. Once in place, the duration is permanent until I decide otherwise.
bookrat
Your totals assume minimum hit dice when cast on something, yes? E.g. Animate dead, binding, ect? I ask, because the cost for many of these spells is based on hit dice. Trap the soul is 1,000 per hit die, not 1,000, binding is 500 per hit die (and so forth).
My total assumes you are casting spells on 20HD opponents (at 20th level) - which might be generous to the wizard.
Correct. I did not add any of the +gp per HD, Level, or anything like that.
Your Symbol prices are incorrect.
Only Symbol of Death was wrong, according to my physical copy of the books, the PFSRD website, and the PRD website.
Symbol of Death is the only symbol that reads, "x gp each" rather than "total of x gp."
What Ravingdork speaks of is true. You can block an anti-magic field using the shrink-item trick on, for instance, a teepee, or any construction that would provide you with a full cover enclosure. It is in fact a really good trick, also it is completely legal.-Nearyn
You finding a GM who allows it isn't the same thing as it being legal.
By this logic, many spells are powerless against anyone wearing a burka...
Ciretose, the 'hat trick' consists of shrinking an enclosure of some sort, something rigid/thick enough to block an emnation or interrupt line of effect, and turning it into a hat. While Shrink Item is often cited here, Shrink Item doesn't affect a large enough volume to do this without Widen. Polymorph Any Object will, and with effectively permanent duration, is a better example.
A sturdy tent is usually considered sufficient to block line of effect, for instance. A robe, as an item of clothing, is not.
Effective deployment is, however, a question.
==Aelryinth
The 'wizard hat trick' only works with DM fiat.
How utterly, completely thigh-slappingly hilarious, that you then go on to make a list of points about the suggested trick, and two out of five points are DM-fiat. ;)
1, Shrink Item doesn't encompass enough volume until extremely high levels to pull the trick off, at least without a Widen Spell.
At what level exactly do you expect to be fighting someone with an anti-magic field active? Anti-Magic field is a 6th level spell, so available at level 11. At level 11 you can shrink an item 24 cubic feet in size. That should be enough for our purpose.
2, assuming your new emnation-interrupting enclosure is going to settle down perfectly around you, and not crash down on your shoulder, fall over behind you (wizard hats point backwards, remember?) is a huge stretch of the imagination.
DM-fiat
3) The fighter/AMF wielder will likely get an AoO to either catch the enclosure as it expands and drops, or simply lever it aside.
DM-fiat
4) You're probably going to use Polymorph Any Object, if only for the duration.
Possibly, but it is not necessary.
5) It's susceptible to random dispelling, which could be really annoying.
And immensely funny. Nevertheless, this does not actually have any relevance as to whether or not it can be done.
-Nearyn
Yeah, my bad guys. I was making that list last night and just trying to finish it. I left a couple of the symbols off - and misread symbol of death - along with some other little things.
The total cost is actually higher than I originally posted (unless I missed something else - which is entirely possible and only drags up the total).
New total is 141,000gp minimum then - which doesn't include the costs of permanency. Also doesn't pay for the minor costs associated with binding.
That sounds closer... I did my own run up around here at some point right after beta iirc.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ravingdork, a Contingency only responds to effects...it has no way of telling if you were rendered unconscious 'against your will'. Or, to put it another way, why would it not trigger if you committed suicide before something terrible happened to you (like, an unrecoverable body)? You're asking the spell to make a judgement call, which requires intelligence...something the spell does not have.
You have, in effect, a condition to the conditional trigger, which I'm pretty sure is not allowed for the spell. The spell has no way of judging your intent if something happens to you.
Secondly, it has absolutely no way of telling what the 'nearest temple to your god' is. It's not a divination spell, and it's not intelligent. It goes off with a defined target at the moment of being triggered...as if you are casting it at that moment, NOT as if you cast it with a target days before. Only Word of Recall auto-ports you to a pre-programmed location...it's the unique nature of that spell. Teleport does NOT have that wording, nor does Contingency modify it.
In other words, RD, that wording and the spell attached to it both do not work...which is fairly standard for how people use Contingency.
==+Aelryinth
You're technically correct, but I think you may perhaps be a bit too restrictive in the overall intent of the spell. The very nature of Contingency necessitates the spell to make a "judgment call". It can be explained away by whatever fluff seems most appropriate, but at the end of the day, it's meant to allow a Wizard to pre-cast a spell to take effect when certain conditions are met. At its simplest level, "it's magic" works.
I see many players who assume a default position of "The players are always trying to put something over on the GM", which is kind of unfortunate. I recognize that comics like "Knights of the Dinner Table" are funny because they play on exaggerated stereotypes of RPG players, but it becomes problematic when people start assuming those...
We're talking about Schroedinger's Wizard, who by definition are going to grab every single bit of power out of a spell that they can.
And Contingency wording and power is one of the main power points of abuse by these people.
Contingency responds to something that happens to you. "WHen I am incapacitated, cast Heal on me," works just fine...condition, trigger. "Cast Heal on me when I am incapacitated against my will" is forcing an opinion and judgement.
The spell is not intelligent, it responds to x happening, but it can't issue an opinion.
A favorite one I see is "When a hostile creature comes within 50' of me, cast X."
Excuse me, when did Contingency get a Detect Hostile Intent, 50'?
What if there's a temple to your deity 20 miles away you've never been to? How does the teleport know to go there? What if the temple you do know is out of range? What does the teleport do?
It's these kinds of shenanigans which Schroedinger Wizards love to put out, and just assume that all of their legalese is going to work. Contingency doesn't know if you fell asleep against your will or were forced to. It knows you have the 'sleep' condition, are incapacitated, and it's time to trigger.
However, unless it's something that does not need direction (cast Heal on me), you have a problem. For instance, "Cast Fireball on the last creature to deal me hit point damage," probably won't work - you need to name a target at the instant of casting, and you must be able to perceive that target. An invisible, concealed attacker, or one at range, will not be subjected to the 'autofire fireball', as the spell has no way to sense something that you do not. "Cast Fireball on the last creature to injure me," means you could cast it at a mosquito.
Contingency is strong, but it's nowhere near as abusable as most wizards seem to think.
The best use of Contingent Teleport is "When I say "Vleem" activate teleport," which is basically a free action spell on your turn, but certainly won't stop you from being one turn ganked, or whisk away your dead body.
===Aelryinth
What Ravingdork speaks of is true. You can block an anti-magic field using the shrink-item trick on, for instance, a teepee, or any construction that would provide you with a full cover enclosure. It is in fact a really good trick, also it is completely legal.-Nearyn
You finding a GM who allows it isn't the same thing as it being legal.
By this logic, many spells are powerless against anyone wearing a burka...
Cute...
Making snarky comments does not make a perfectly legal trick, any less legal :) Maybe look into what is being discussed a little bit more than not-at-all, and -then- respond?
By this logic, many spells are powerless against anyone wearing a burka
"You finding a GM who allows it isn't the same thing as it being legal" ;)
-Nearyn
|
|
What Ravingdork speaks of is true. You can block an anti-magic field using the shrink-item trick on, for instance, a teepee, or any construction that would provide you with a full cover enclosure. It is in fact a really good trick, also it is completely legal.-Nearyn
You finding a GM who allows it isn't the same thing as it being legal.
By this logic, many spells are powerless against anyone wearing a burka...
Ciretose, the 'hat trick' consists of shrinking an enclosure of some sort, something rigid/thick enough to block an emnation or interrupt line of effect, and turning it into a hat. While Shrink Item is often cited here, Shrink Item doesn't affect a large enough volume to do this without Widen. Polymorph Any Object will, and with effectively permanent duration, is a better example.
A sturdy tent is usually considered sufficient to block line of effect, for instance. A robe, as an item of clothing, is not.
Effective deployment is, however, a question.
==Aelryinth
However the hat is activated because you are already within the radius of the spell. This would mean every building in a dead magic zone is not effected by the dead magic zone.
Which is absurd. And a fine example of why much of the "Broken" is a result of user not rules.
Nearyn, you aren't doing the math.
An 'enclosure' would have to surround you completely. It has to be taller then you, wider then you, and longer then you.
For an average human male, it would nominally have to encompass the square upon which he stands. We can 'thin' that a bit, but we're looking at 7' tall, 4' wide, and 3' deep, giving it at least some room to fall down and expand.
That's 84 cubic feet, waaaaaaay outside the bounds of Shrink Item.
Even going 6x3x3 is 54 feet, still waaaaay outside the bounds...and you'd have to duck once it was up.
You MIGHT be trying to say 'the volume of the components, not the volume they enclose'. But that's not how the spell works. Shrinking a carnival tent requires a huge AoE. Shrinking that carnival tent rolled up and stacked together on a pallet requires considerably less. Since we are putting up an enclosure, the entire volume has to be calculated.
==Aelryinth
Ciretose, a dead magic zone is a zone. It affects everything in the zone.
An AMF is an 'emnation'. It's like a shining light bulb of anti-magic. If you can form a shadow against the center of effect, you are covered...it's not a zone.
==Aelryinth
|
|
Cute...
As opposed to the person arguing that a shruken hat becomes a tee-pee and that dead magic zones don't work inside of Tee-pee hat.
I am the one being "cute" in this discussion.
Interesting.
If you have a GM who prefers cute to reasonable, you will have a very different game. If you enjoy it, bless you and continue to do so. But don't try to sell it as gospel.
What Ravingdork speaks of is true. You can block an anti-magic field using the shrink-item trick on, for instance, a teepee, or any construction that would provide you with a full cover enclosure. It is in fact a really good trick, also it is completely legal.-Nearyn
You finding a GM who allows it isn't the same thing as it being legal.
By this logic, many spells are powerless against anyone wearing a burka...
Ciretose, the 'hat trick' consists of shrinking an enclosure of some sort, something rigid/thick enough to block an emnation or interrupt line of effect, and turning it into a hat. While Shrink Item is often cited here, Shrink Item doesn't affect a large enough volume to do this without Widen. Polymorph Any Object will, and with effectively permanent duration, is a better example.
A sturdy tent is usually considered sufficient to block line of effect, for instance. A robe, as an item of clothing, is not.
Effective deployment is, however, a question.
==Aelryinth
However the hat is activated because you are already within the radius of the spell. This would mean every building in a dead magic zone is not effected by the dead magic zone.
Which is absurd. And a fine example of why much of the "Broken" is a result of user not rules.
Dead magic zones is not an emanation effect. Anti-Magic field, is. :)
-Nearyn
|
|
Ravingdork, a Contingency only responds to effects...it has no way of telling if you were rendered unconscious 'against your will'.
My wizard does not eat, drink, breathe or sleep.
It is safe to assume any loss of consciousness in involuntary.
Silly mortal. If I can alter time and space why should I allow myself such petty weaknesses.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To be clear Aelryinth you are not counting all the empty space inside the cone right? Cause I'm not seeing a teepee with 3 foot thick walls.
If we assume a 6 foot tall cone with a diameter of 5 feet with walls a generous half inch thick should eat up about 2.126 cubic feet. All the spell cares about is how much actual material is there, not how much area it covers.
I figured I would add in on this debate. Before I do that though, allow me to post a link to a website that should give you a fairly good idea about tipis and their constructions, which makes the notion of using the shrink item spell on them to have a tipi resting on your head for a spontaneous full-cover in the case of an antimagic field fairly...impractical.
http://www.tipi.com/ourtipis.html
Now, if I am not mistaken, a 15th level Tetori monk that managed to sneak up on ANY spellcaster will win the majority of the time. The Tetori's Inescapable Grasp ability shuts down the spellcaster's ability to get out of his grapple. Furthermore, once the spellcaster is helpless, the contingency spell might kick in but it is nullified by the Inescapable Grasp. Contingency only works once. If it is nullified at the time, the spell does not try again. So the Tetori monk begins to break bones, jaws, repeatedly stunning the spellcaster, and so forth. Not much the spellcaster can do since most actions would require him/her to beat the Tetori monk's CMD, which would be incredibly difficult unless a natural 20 is rolled.
A rogue of equal level can also hose a spellcaster. A fairly well built rogue can (a) steal spell components from the spellcaster, and (b) utilize the Use Magic Device skill to "cast" a dimensional anchor spell from a scroll at the spellcaster while his hirelings proceed to beat down the spellcaster, including breaking fingers and the jaw. Or the rogue can slip in a cursed item on the spellcaster's person that functions as if a dimensional barrier was active on the wearer.
Those are just some circumstances in which unless the spellcaster has allies with him/her at the time, said spellcaster is doomed, albeit not necessarily concluding with his/her death. Even a simple feeblemind spell will drop a spellcaster in his/her tracks on a failed save.
My point is thus: a spellcaster *might* have the relevant spell that could aid him/her in a given hostile situation - the equally paranoid aggressor would have the means to either negate the effectiveness of said spell or altered the circumstances in which said spell is not of use. Attacking the spellcaster when he/she is asleep and similar situations.
It is literally a Catch-22.
Bob the spellcaster: "I have just the spell for this situation!"
Asmodeus: "Of course, I prepared for that. Additionally, if you flee or attack me, everyone you cared about will be dead. Now, what was that you said about reneging on this contract you signed with your own blood, hm?"
Game over.
CB out.
p.s., by the same token, any other character concept or build that requires optimal conditions and favourable circumstances at any given moment will not have such good luck all the time, and I highly doubt it would even reach an equilibrium of 50% - half the time you're lucky, half the time you're not. If your DM/GM wants to run a story in which the player characters ALWAYS win, no matter the circumstances, then happy gaming to you. :)
Nearyn, you aren't doing the math.
An 'enclosure' would have to surround you completely. It has to be taller then you, wider then you, and longer then you.
For an average human male, it would nominally have to encompass the square upon which he stands. We can 'thin' that a bit, but we're looking at 7' tall, 4' wide, and 3' deep, giving it at least some room to fall down and expand.
That's 84 cubic feet, waaaaaaay outside the bounds of Shrink Item.
Even going 6x3x3 is 54 feet, still waaaaay outside the bounds...and you'd have to duck once it was up.
You MIGHT be trying to say 'the volume of the components, not the volume they enclose'. But that's not how the spell works. Shrinking a carnival tent requires a huge AoE. Shrinking that carnival tent rolled up and stacked together on a pallet requires considerably less. Since we are putting up an enclosure, the entire volume has to be calculated.
==Aelryinth
I disagree Aelryinth. The spell's target specifically state that it is one touched object of up to 2 cu ft/level. So I should not have to count the area inside your tent. Maybe you would tell us, why you believe the rules say it should?
-Nearyn
Not to mention how the hat must be both thick enough to be a "Solid" barrier with a weave that wouldn't expand to have gaps when enlarged.
Which is why most GM's would just say "Dude...seriously, stop being that guy."
But YMMV, and if you enjoy it at your table, carry on.
I don't agree with your generalization and speculation across whatever must constitute "most GM's" to you, but I will agree to disagree, and maintain that I am reading the rules correctly, and that the pointy-hat-trick is quite legal.
-Nearyn
|
|
Now, if I am not mistaken, a 15th level Tetori monk that managed to sneak up on ANY spellcaster will win the majority of the time.
Absolutely
A rogue of equal level can also hose a spellcaster. A fairly well built rogue can (a) steal spell components from the spellcaster, and (b) utilize the Use Magic Device skill to "cast" a dimensional anchor spell from a scroll at the spellcaster
Any class can. My fighter has UMD.
while his hirelings proceed to beat down the spellcaster, including breaking fingers and the jaw.
Not supported by the rules.
Or the rogue can slip in a cursed item on the spellcaster's person that functions as if a dimensional barrier was active on the wearer.
Delving very deeply into custom magic item rules. In this case we can assume the wizard has access to the same level of magic item customization.
Those are just some circumstances in which unless the spellcaster has allies with him/her at the time, said spellcaster is doomed, albeit not necessarily concluding with his/her death.
I've already defined my wizard as a level 20 conjurer. Allies are permanently summoned.....
Even a simple feeblemind spell will drop a spellcaster in his/her tracks on a failed save.
Mind Blank > Feeblemind. Any paranoid wizard has the spell up 24/7.
My point is thus: a spellcaster *might* have the relevant spell that could aid him/her in a given hostile situation - the equally paranoid...
I'm not disagreeing, but some of your answers either have standard counters or delve deeply in house rule territory.
Not to mention how the hat must be both thick enough to be a "Solid" barrier with a weave that wouldn't expand to have gaps when enlarged.
Which is why most GM's would just say "Dude...seriously, stop being that guy."
But YMMV, and if you enjoy it at your table, carry on.
Had a GM once give a colossal giant an adamantine sword. We killed the giant GM said the sword was worth about the same as a medium adamantine sword since the price of special materials didn't increase with the size increase. I figured out how many cubic feet of adamantine I had and the proceeded to melt it down and used it to make a metal teepee like what is dicussed here. Since shrink item handles turning it clothe-like for me it was even fairly floppy when shrunk. IIRC the hat was rediculously small for my character due to just how small shrink item made it.
|
The 'wizard hat trick' only works with DM fiat.
1, Shrink Item doesn't encompass enough volume until extremely high levels to pull the trick off, at least without a Widen Spell.
2, assuming your new emnation-interrupting enclosure is going to settle down perfectly around you, and not crash down on your shoulder, fall over behind you (wizard hats point backwards, remember?) is a huge stretch of the imagination.
3) The fighter/AMF wielder will likely get an AoO to either catch the enclosure as it expands and drops, or simply lever it aside.
4) You're probably going to use Polymorph Any Object, if only for the duration.
5) It's susceptible to random dispelling, which could be really annoying.
1) Since your not gonna be facing AMF until higher levels unless your GM for some reason likes to toss out things with 6th level spells when your level 5 and cause TPKs, I really don't see the level needed to be an issue. This is a high level wizard trick.
2) So...DM fiat3) DM fiat again
4) Yes you can use that spell as well.
5) So...GM fiat again? Could you maybe NOT use GM fiat as an argument? Because you know GM fiat beats all and we ALREADY KNOW THIS. In fact that is why the Schrödinger wizard does not work in real life even if you could "build" one. GM fiat wins. But that doesn't mean you use GM fiat to win an argument on the power level of a class.
It is weird how everything you disagree with is GM Fiat, but when a player does it it is a "Creative" reading.
Odd...
Are you talking to me, or someone else ciretose?
|
|
It is weird how everything you disagree with is GM Fiat, but when a player does it it is a "Creative" reading.
Odd...
What creative reading? Gentle repose? Fine, we go with stasis and simulacrum. Or the GM has to come up with a GM fiat thing for the player...one of which can be no you can't use the clone back up because I'm gonna rule everything against you doing this. Most reading of gentle repose however has the clone covered under the "and like" clause. And yes in the case of the gentle repose, it is a GM call..not fiat. But we already know that whatever a GM doesn't like, it doesn't work...barring PFS which has standardized rules.
Or you mean the contingency? Because you know right before I die isn't a clear enough clause? Seriously?!?
ROTRL book 4 or 5 had a wizard using clones...
Now, if I am not mistaken, a 15th level Tetori monk that managed to sneak up on ANY spellcaster will win the majority of the time.
Absolutely
A rogue of equal level can also hose a spellcaster. A fairly well built rogue can (a) steal spell components from the spellcaster, and (b) utilize the Use Magic Device skill to "cast" a dimensional anchor spell from a scroll at the spellcasterAny class can. My fighter has UMD.
while his hirelings proceed to beat down the spellcaster, including breaking fingers and the jaw.Not supported by the rules.
Or the rogue can slip in a cursed item on the spellcaster's person that functions as if a dimensional barrier was active on the wearer.Delving very deeply into custom magic item rules. In this case we can assume the wizard has access to the same level of magic item customization.
Those are just some circumstances in which unless the spellcaster has allies with him/her at the time, said spellcaster is doomed, albeit not necessarily concluding with his/her death.I've already defined my wizard as a level 20 conjurer. Allies are permanently summoned.....
Even a simple feeblemind spell will drop a spellcaster in his/her tracks on a failed save.Mind Blank > Feeblemind. Any paranoid wizard has the spell up 24/7.
My point is thus: a spellcaster *might* have the relevant spell that could aid him/her in a given hostile situation - the equally paranoid...I'm not disagreeing, but some of your answers either have standard counters or delve deeply in house rule territory.
Breaking bones is actually possible. Their effects vary, and sometimes can be adjucated whatever the DM/GM determines, but there are feats that literally breaks bones and their specific effects are listed. For example, Bonebreaker, Jawbreaker, and Neckbreaker.
Delving into custom magic item creations is not neither an exact science but neither is it a sparsely threaded grounds. So it is perfectly natural for a spellcaster to have item creation feats too. However, that would eat up more feat slots, unless he/she is purchasing it from someone else, and that would cost more gold. It is generally far easier to have the relevant item creation feats than relying on someone else.
Of course, I did not even delve into the situation where the cunning rogue can swap switch the wizard's fancy cloak for another cloak that looks exactly the same but is actually a cursed item - specifically a cape of anchoring. Not a customised item but a common cursed item.
But, for the sake of the "argument," let us remove the possibilities offered by customized or personalized magic items.
In regards to the permanently summoned creatures, I was not even addressing your build in particular, but I am sure that with given enough time, effort, and preparation, another character of equal level will find means or resources to deal with that particular hurdle.
Mind Blank does not grant immunity to Feeblemind. It does grants a +8 resistance bonus against mind-affecting spells and effect, which does not guarantee auto-success. A natural one is still a failure and another spellcaster can have his spells' DC incredibly high. Also, arcane spellcasters do suffer a -4 penalty to their saving throw to resist Feeblemind.
I don't disagree that your character concept is nice and nifty, nor did I suggest that you did not consider standard counter-measures. What I disagreed with is anyone's claim that they have build an infallible/invincible character. It does not exist. I have yet to see a character build that could not be taken part, with existing and legal core rules and supplements (i.e., APG, UC, UM, core rule books, and so forth - chronicles and companion supplements do not qualify, nor does 3rd party supplements).
At any rate, cheers and good gaming. :)
CB out.
Nearyn, you aren't doing the math.
An 'enclosure' would have to surround you completely. It has to be taller then you, wider then you, and longer then you.
For an average human male, it would nominally have to encompass the square upon which he stands. We can 'thin' that a bit, but we're looking at 7' tall, 4' wide, and 3' deep, giving it at least some room to fall down and expand.
That's 84 cubic feet, waaaaaaay outside the bounds of Shrink Item.
Even going 6x3x3 is 54 feet, still waaaaay outside the bounds...and you'd have to duck once it was up.
You MIGHT be trying to say 'the volume of the components, not the volume they enclose'. But that's not how the spell works. Shrinking a carnival tent requires a huge AoE. Shrinking that carnival tent rolled up and stacked together on a pallet requires considerably less. Since we are putting up an enclosure, the entire volume has to be calculated.
==Aelryinth
This is a common misconception. The volume of an object does not include empty space.
Taking a steel right cone with a 2-foot radius base, 7 feet tall, hollowed out and 1-foot thick, comes to about 23.4 cubic feet.
Odds are, we don't need one foot thick steel to block line of effect, heck we don't even need an inch thick.
I've already defined my wizard as a level 20 conjurer. Allies are permanently summoned....
Negative energy elementals are 3PP, not official products.
Mind Blank > Feeblemind. Any paranoid wizard has the spell up 24/7.
Not in pathfinder.
May want to check again Avh, Negative Energy Elementals are from Pathfinder Module: The Witchwar Legacy which is by and this may come as a shock.... Paizo.
Also, am I only the one who loves the fact that by nerfing Mind Blank, Pathfinder makes Mind-Affecting spells even scarier for those without good will saves. A net gain for casters!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There are no spells that don't use the 'total volume' rules.
If you shrank a house down, would you use the volume of the house or the house's components size?
You're trying to use a 'mass of component parts' interpretation of volume, which is NOT what the spell is calling for by any stretch of the imagination. It's asking 'how much space the item occupies'.
The spell is calling for volume, which is the area the spell encloses when cast. To fully cover an object, the spell must fully cover the volume it occupies, even if much of that volume is empty space.
You're attempting to say that a fully erected 100x40x20' carnival tent is as easy to shrink down as it would be if it were folded up, or you could shrink down a hot-air balloon when filled with hot air as easily as you could it rolled up into a bundle...although the volume the two forms occupy is completely different.
Sorry, no. Form does have an effect on volume. If you want to stack the component parts together in the minimum space provided, sure, you've got enough volume to use them all. But if you want them in the form of an enclosure, that's an AoE measurement, not a mass/weight effect, and to shrink the whole object, you're going to need the full volume it occupies, not what it is made of. Just because there's empty spots where the spell isn't doing anything doesn't mean you get to discount that volume.
yes, that means a solid steel cone is as easy to shrink down as a teepee occupying the same area. That's the beauty of volume vs mass.
===Aelryinth
RD, turn your cone upside down and insert it in water to its brim.
What is the volume it displaces? Amazingly, the empty space IS included. That's the volume it occupies that the spell has to cover.
==Aelryinth