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Non playable(racial HD) race of dinosaurs would be cool.
Gathlain are not half-fey, we do not have a fey version of Aasimar/Tiefling.
The Wyrwood are not half-construct though the android is kinda like that though.
I do agree that we could use a Aasimar/Tiefling version of a dragon themed race.
Isn't being half-dragon the whole point behind dragon disciple? And with the half-dragon template? If it's more about the appearance, kobolds have a ton of feats to get more dragon-like, and if you'd prefer something more strength-focused, there's nagaji. If you specifically want a human base, and don't want to be a caster, there's either a feat or monk archetype that gives a breath weapon if I recall.
In short, I just want Paizo's version of the Dragonborn... without resembling Wotc's Dragonborn, be the ritual race in 3e or the real race in 4e.
Also, they would address the demand for a dragon character as well. The guys at Paizo said times after times that they were downright fed up with the overpopulairty and overuse of the half-dragon Template, but I guess they didn't think of just giving us a dragon-themed race.
Kobolds are just cannon-fodders and Nagajis are related to the nagas, not dragons.
If you don't want a dragonborn, then make them ogresized dragonfolk, in my opinion much better and suiting than human sized dragon folk.
And now we have the Mudlord, what about a Sandlord? The Sandman is too weak and Sand Golem is soooooooo D&D... Some living sandstorm creature would be fun too!
That brings me to the wishlist for the Osirion Adventure Path Bestiary:
1: Some Sand Shark creatures, manta rays that swim in sand maybe marlins or swordfish that swim in sand and which are hostile, big (not bigger than huge tho) and who are voracious.
2: Tsemaus and Karkadann from my beast list, the hostile desert unicorn and the sandfish with the sharp dorsal fin.
3: The Ammit and the Wadjet from Egyptian mythology, and maybe also the Anubites (minions of Anubis but then without the link to anubis)
4: Some cat like creature with links to Bast (cat godess) would be fun!
5: The Living sandstorm I was talking about or/and the Sandlord (stronger sandman) creature.
6: Some magical versions of the Chameleon.
7: Scarab Beetle Swarms much like in the Mummy movie.
8: Cactus Leshy!! And maybe more Cactus based monsters such as a Treant Cactus that is much better than the D&D version.
9: Oasis-based horrors that use illusions or maybe live within a Oasis.
10: Some new (NON TEMPLATE) mummy variants.
There are many more creatures of course, but I hope there will no new Sphinxes, I know every animal head can be put on a Lion's body but enough is enough for me. We already have tons of Landscape-Giants and Landscape-Drakes no need for the Sphinx to go the same road with different animal heads, the sphinxes we have now are good enough!
If you don't want a dragonborn, then make them ogresized dragonfolk, in my opinion much better and suiting than human sized dragon folk.
How so? Furthermore, Large races would either have racial HD or be too powerful for an average party. I don't want to end up with a race similar to the Trox here.
Also, they would address the demand for a dragon character as well. The guys at Paizo said times after times that they were downright fed up with the overpopulairty and overuse of the half-dragon Template, but I guess they didn't think of just giving us a dragon-themed race.
Err...actually their issue is that when half dragons are abundant and a dragon is actually a member of the party...it makes dragons less unique and special. While I would also like a dragonborn/draconian expy, I don't think we are going to get it. You might try asking James Jacobs his view in his thread in off-topic.
If it helps, Kobold Press/Open design has a draconian race, the Dragonkin, which have Pathfinder stats.
If you don't want a dragonborn, then make them ogresized dragonfolk, in my opinion much better and suiting than human sized dragon folk.How so? Furthermore, Large races would either have racial HD or be too powerful for an average party. I don't want to end up with a race similar to the Trox here.
I kinda like the Trox, best PR in there! :-p
Yes I would also like a flesh eating scarab swarm.
A living sandstorm would make an interesting elemental.
I am down for some manta ray like creatures, sand dwelling or otherwise.
Tsemaus and Karkadann would be interesting.
A chameleon based monster would be cool, are there any from real world myth?
More creatures with bladed fins and/or wings.
Also no more large size playable races but I would like at least one tiny size playable race.
There are no Chameleon-like creatures in mythology/folklore that i'm aware off, maybe MMCJawa knows some? I would like to know as well if they excist (which I doubt).
Of course there is the Tome of Horror Rock Reptile which is a magical Chameleon monster. Which is also PERFECT for the desert theme as victims (humanoid and animal) want to take cover in the shadow of the large stone in the middle of the desert only to discover too late that its actually a living creature that can appear as rock.
For a desert-based Chameleon monster I would like an Illusion-Chameleon, a creature that can turn itself into any illusion (instead of colour-changing) like trees, water, kind travelers, caravan or oasis.
The creature would be a magical beast and intelligent and using its impaling tongue to suprise would-be heroes who went for the illusions.
And the skulk, which already exists.
I kinda like the Trox, best PR in there! :-pIf you don't want a dragonborn, then make them ogresized dragonfolk, in my opinion much better and suiting than human sized dragon folk.How so? Furthermore, Large races would either have racial HD or be too powerful for an average party. I don't want to end up with a race similar to the Trox here.
The Trox, in B4, has an additional rule that states that Trox characters are considered 2 levels higher than usual, similar to "LA+2".
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I agree with Jici. Aasimars don't make celestials less special, and tieflings don't make fiends less special, so I don't see how a dragon-blooded race would make dragons less special. I know we have the Wyvaran, which is a dragon race in the Bestiary 4 and the ARG. Personally, I'd want something more on the human-side for looks, instead of an anthropomorphic lizard. I actually posted this here where I set up dragonborn with different heritages. Even included an idea for a Jabberwock-blooded human :) I never expanded on this, but I really should.
Also, I feel we are well passed the age of dragons being everywhere and could possibly add an option for a dragon race. Especially since for me, demons now fill that niche. I feel if Paizo had their way, the Bestiary 5 would be one letter; D for 294 pages of demons ;)
The Trox, in B4, has an additional rule that states that Trox characters are considered 2 levels higher than usual, similar to "LA+2".I kinda like the Trox, best PR in there! :-pIf you don't want a dragonborn, then make them ogresized dragonfolk, in my opinion much better and suiting than human sized dragon folk.How so? Furthermore, Large races would either have racial HD or be too powerful for an average party. I don't want to end up with a race similar to the Trox here.
LA+2? Really? Kinda surprised. It's not THAT powerful. I mean, it certainly is more powerful than the other races, clocking in at 28 points and thus monstrous. I'd probably peg it at LA+1. But, if I were running a game that it fit in, I'd probably allow it. Maybe a higher power game like Dark Sun.
Yeah Odraude, I agree with you on the letter "D" thing for bestiary 4 and about having a more human like dragon blooded race.
I would allow the Trox if I made it medium size and it lost it's bility to rage.
LA+2? Really? Kinda surprised. It's not THAT powerful. I mean, it certainly is more powerful than the other races, clocking in at 28 points and thus monstrous. I'd probably peg it at LA+1. But, if I were running a game that it fit in, I'd probably allow it. Maybe a higher power game like Dark Sun.The Trox, in B4, has an additional rule that states that Trox characters are considered 2 levels higher than usual, similar to "LA+2".I kinda like the Trox, best PR in there! :-pIf you don't want a dragonborn, then make them ogresized dragonfolk, in my opinion much better and suiting than human sized dragon folk.How so? Furthermore, Large races would either have racial HD or be too powerful for an average party. I don't want to end up with a race similar to the Trox here.
Trox are defined by their class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. Despite having no racial Hit Dice, trox are powerful creatures and their CR is 2 higher than a human of the same level.
"CR 2 higher" pretty much means "LA+2"
Last time I checked there were zero new demons in the bestiary 4, only 3 demon lords :-p
Last time I checked there were zero new demons in the bestiary 4, only 3 demon lords :-p
Fair enough though, because I think there were always more demons and than devils in previous bestiaries. guess they needed to even it out.
Bestiary 3 had only 1 new devil and 3 new demons...
Only bestiary 1 (which is logical) and 2 (which were more than awesome, especially the new devils) had many demons and devils...
But I think you guys count the demons/devils from other (non-bestiary) products with it! Such as the ones from the Worldwound? And another product about demons/devils.
Well...We are getting Wrath of the Righteous right now with a new Demon in every Bestiary, not counting the Demon Lords. And The Worldwound gave us a ton of new demons. I agree with others...I am getting a bit demoned out :P
Unfortunately, with all the Demons coming out in this AP, I would be pretty shocked if we didn't see more demons in Bestiary 5, whenever we see that.
The only demon species i'm tired off are the ones with bat-like wings and the huge winged ones with multiple arms/limbs.
Other demons are still welcome for me, but some of the names of the new demons are really difficult and impossible and don't suit well next to the much easier Marilith, Hezrou, Balor and Babau... that's a bummer for me and makes me like the creatures less sometimes.
But demons numbers are great, there are a lot more souls to cover and they are JJ's favorites, so i'm pretty sure there are a lot more demons coming.
LA+2? Really? Kinda surprised. It's not THAT powerful. I mean, it certainly is more powerful than the other races, clocking in at 28 points and thus monstrous. I'd probably peg it at LA+1. But, if I were running a game that it fit in, I'd probably allow it. Maybe a higher power game like Dark Sun.The Trox, in B4, has an additional rule that states that Trox characters are considered 2 levels higher than usual, similar to "LA+2".I kinda like the Trox, best PR in there! :-pIf you don't want a dragonborn, then make them ogresized dragonfolk, in my opinion much better and suiting than human sized dragon folk.How so? Furthermore, Large races would either have racial HD or be too powerful for an average party. I don't want to end up with a race similar to the Trox here.Trox are defined by their class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. Despite having no racial Hit Dice, trox are powerful creatures and their CR is 2 higher than a human of the same level."CR 2 higher" pretty much means "LA+2"
Which is bizarre, because Drow Nobles - clocking in at a whopping 41 RP - are only ONE CR higher, and thus only LA+1.
Which is bizarre, because Drow Nobles - clocking in at a whopping 41 RP - are only ONE CR higher, and thus only LA+1.
That might be errated eventually though.
Well considering demons and devils are in every hardcover bestiary to date then it would surprise me if they didn't show up in the Bestiary 5. Now I would happy if they didn't, but I know better, they will be there.
Which is bizarre, because Drow Nobles - clocking in at a whopping 41 RP - are only ONE CR higher, and thus only LA+1.That might be errated eventually though.
They're from Bestiary 1. Having not been errata'd yet, I seriously doubt it ever will.
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They're from Bestiary 1. Having not been errata'd yet, I seriously doubt it ever will.Which is bizarre, because Drow Nobles - clocking in at a whopping 41 RP - are only ONE CR higher, and thus only LA+1.That might be errated eventually though.
you think thats bs, compare an azlanti(a 27 rp race) to a human with the advanced template.
Well considering demons and devils are in every hardcover bestiary to date then it would surprise me if they didn't show up in the Bestiary 5. Now I would happy if they didn't, but I know better, they will be there.
But are there demons you actually like at all? From bestiary 1,2 or 3? Or don't you like the idea behind demons and devils in general?
For example do you like the Marilith?
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Labyrinthodontia, or Dire Newt (Animal Companion)
Diplocaulus, Giant Salamander (Small Familiar)
Newt, Fire Salamander (Tiny Familiar)
I haven't seen artwork for a marilith that I have actually liked since 2nd edition.
I like the Succubus but even I think they are getting overused.
I would also like some salamander/newt related animals and monsters. I really wish pathfinder's version of the monster salamander was more like the one from myth.
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Yes I wished the Barghest, Salamander and Kobold weren't based on the D&D versions but on the real mythological versions.
The Barghest and Kobold would probably replace the Shadow Mastiff and the Pech this way tho, which I wouldn't mind.
I already use the Pech as Kobold in my game and I use the model of the Shadow Mastiff for my Barghest, there isn't a model to use for the Salamander tho.
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Labyrinthodontia, or Dire Newt (Animal Companion)
Diplocaulus, Giant Salamander (Small Familiar)
Newt, Fire Salamander (Tiny Familiar)
Y'know, never noticed there was a lack of amphibious critters till now. I definitely third these options!
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Rules for
Animated object Familiar
Clockwork Familiar
and Awakened trees... like "what's their Constitution score if they're supposed to be Plant creatures, not Constructs?"
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Let's add the Ponies from My Little Pony into the next Bestiary, and make them all unkillable.
You know, because we might upset the MLP fans if we don't cater to them and their tastes properly.
The people who actually get this joke get a cookie from me. If they don't like cookies, they get a muffin.
They have a clockwork familiar in one of the APs, they just haven't put it in a hardcover book yet.
I really wish they had familiar rules for Soulbound Dolls, Atomie, Gourd or Leaf Leshy. I am sure there are other CR1-2 creatures that would have been cool as familiars.
Speaking of constructs, I would like to see stats for toy solders and maybe a swarm version as well. Maybe inspired by the nutcracker sweet or just the toys of that time period.
Let's add the Ponies from My Little Pony into the next Bestiary, and make them all unkillable.
You know, because we might upset the MLP fans if we don't cater to them and their tastes properly.
The people who actually get this joke get a cookie from me. If they don't like cookies, they get a muffin.
Honestly, after stewing a bit on the Great Old Ones and their immortality, I'm okay with it. In a way, I think it fits since they are the natives of this material plane, so they are always in their realm. And to be honest, I do think that it's a bit frightening and somewhat telling that these creatures are unkillable while other outsiders are not. Makes you think that outsiders really are truly outsiders and that maybe these horrifying GOO are the true masters of the Material Plan...
Besides, I think it makes sense for Hastur.
Dude you just need to accept it. Continually whining about it ain't gonna change it. Paizo isn't going to fire James just because you don't like how the Great Old Ones turned out in the Bestiary.
The fact that your name is Kthulhu and you are saying this has me suspicious of your motives...
I kid, of course ;)
Honestly, after stewing a bit on the Great Old Ones and their immortality, I'm okay with it. In a way, I think it fits since they are the natives of this material plane, so they are always in their realm. And to be honest, I do think that it's a bit frightening and somewhat telling that these creatures are unkillable while other outsiders are not. Makes you think that outsiders really are truly outsiders and that maybe these horrifying GOO are the true masters of the Material Plan. Besides, I think it makes sense for Hastur.
The implication I dislike is that team Good will never win, because these things will never die.
It just puts the bleak nihilism of the Cthulhu Mythos into a setting that didn't really need it in the first place.
Some people prefer to give the players a chance to earn a happy ending. This just shot down any canon ways of doing so.
As far as Lovecraft, I'd be happy to see some reference to Kthanid. You know, the one deity who actually wants to help humanity?
So long as he's just as unkillable as his brother, I'm okay with this :D
So if I am a DM who lets his players kill Cthulhu, it is badwrongfun?
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Well, I guess it's a good thing that I'm switching over to my own campaign world when it's ready for play.
Better to actually give the players a meaningful victory every now and then instead of a lost cause from the get-go.
Do we have a one-eyed, one-horned, flying purple people eater?
Revenants are somewhat similar, but tend to be focused on revenging there murder. Slashers are more generally kill happy.
Might work better as a template though
A template on some other undead, including a Revenant? It would make some sense - after avenging whatever it was that they were avenging, they decide to stick-around and apply their 'revenge' to just about everything (sickly justifying it all somehow).
Kinda like a Grudge (which would be a ghost with that template added).
Guess it all comes down to perspective, though neither of us is right or wrong about this topic as a result.
I'd prefer "agree to disagree", since we're all supposed to be above accusations of whining and badwrongfun anyway.
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The implication I dislike is that team Good will never win, because these things will never die.
It just puts the bleak nihilism of the Cthulhu Mythos into a setting that didn't really need it in the first place.
Some people prefer to give the players a chance to earn a happy ending. This just shot down any canon ways of doing so.
Gods have died before, so game stats do not a canon make ;) Some storyline elements that fall outside of the scope of the rules due to their sheer power may well kill a God, or a Great Old One. It's been stated in various threads by Paizo staff that the lack of stats is not an indication these things can't be killed, just that you can't kill them through conventional means.
So, team good can win - just not through casting spells (at least, not the ones from the rulebook) and hitting things with weapons.
Also given the Bestiaries are not supposed to be Golarion-specific, there's no reason to reflavor Mythos entities for a "normal" fantasy setting. The true Mythos versions are unbeatable for a very good reason - in the Mythos, team good will never win.
One of the best things about RPGs is their flexibility. The Paizo-published version doesn't have to be the be-all and end-all in your game. If you want to remove their immortality, or add an exception that makes death permanent for them (likely involving an epic quest to obtain pieces of some spell/artifact/whatever that makes that possible), just go ahead and do it. If you want Cthulhu to be a powerful mortal creature, just remove that immortality ability.
End of the day, it's far easier to make everyone happy by publishing these beings with an immortality ability that can be ignored by those who don't want it, than to publish without it and expect people that do want it to make a rule up to fit. Most of all though, remember that the book is a toolkit, not a canon reference :)
EDIT: As you made a few more posts since I started writing this: The approach you're taking is 100% the right thing to do - if you don't agree with it, change it :)
Speaking of the Demon Lords, let's see what we have so far:
* Dagon
* Kostchtchie
* Pazuzu
* Xoveron (Pathfinder #73: The Worldwound Incursion pg. 84)
* Shax (Pathfinder #74: Sword of Valor pg. 84)
* Sifkesh (Pathfinder #75: Demon's Heresy pg. 86)
I'd like you guys to take a closer look at the 5th entry, Shax. This lord was also a Vestige for the 3.5 Tome of Magic, as well as MANY other demons from the Ars Goetia. Furthermore, both the vestige's description and the demon lord's description resemble the one in the folklore. So... if Paizo uses the Ars Goetia for upcoming demon lords, they have a TRUCKLOAD of creatures to use, AND it's both free to use and based on the actual lore.
Let's see now:
* Agares
* Samigina
* Baal
* Vassago
* Barbas
* Valefar
* Amon
* Barbatos
* Paimon
* Buer
* Gusion
* Sitri
* Beleth
* Leraje
* Eligos
* Botis
* Zepar
* Bathin
* Sallos
* Purson
* Marax
* Ipos
* Aim
* Naberius
* Glasya-Labolas
* Buné
* Ronové
* Berith
* Astaroth
* Forneus
* Foras
* Gäap
* Furfur
* Marchosias
* Stolas
* Phenex
* Halphas
* Malphas
* Räum
* Focalor
* Vepar
* Sabnock
* Viné
* Bifrons
* Vual
* Häagenti
* Crocell
* Furcas
* Balam
* Alloces
* Caim
* Murmur
* Orobas
* Gremory
* Ose
* Amy
* Orias
* Vapula
* Zagan
* Valac
* Andras
* Flauros
* Andrealphus
* Cimeies
* Amdusias
* Bélial
* Decarabia
* Seere
* Dantalion
* Andromalius
On a sidenote, Asmodeus was part of that list, but Paizo made him a God. Also, the Ars Goetia makes reference to Hell, but also to demons, when technically, the Abyss hosts demons and Hell hosts devils. They could split everything to make demon lords and archdevils.
As for the other demon lords, we could have:
* Baphomet
* Fraz-Urb'luu
* Jubilex
* Orcus
Which are the only ones so far that could be remade by Paizo.
As for Archdevils, we could have:
* Lucifer
* Mammon
* Leviathan
* Beelzebub
* Satan
* Belphegor
* Mephistopheles
While I don't expect a separate bestiary with new demon lords and archdevils taking 2 pages each for 150 fiends, they still have plenty of material for them.
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Speaking of the Demon Lords, let's see what we have so far:
* Dagon
* Kostchtchie
* Pazuzu
* Xoveron (Pathfinder #73: The Worldwound Incursion pg. 84)
* Shax (Pathfinder #74: Sword of Valor pg. 84)
* Sifkesh (Pathfinder #75: Demon's Heresy pg. 86)
Paizo has dozens of Demon Lords as presented in Lords of Chaos, and they're all waiting for stats. You can see the list here.