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So where can we test this theory. What are the builds, level by level, for the 4 classes that are clearly superior.Exactly.
If 4 classes are better than 1 class, you don't nerf the other 4 to the one class' level.
I posted a thread like 12 hours ago but nobody ever replied to it.
Well, actually, I guess Nicos and Shallowsoul posted.
Sorry, didn't see it. I will go over there now.
Kudos on stepping up.
...and it's my thought that ONLY personal experiences truly matter...as it's people playing the game, and enjoying it. It's people playing the fighter that saves the wizard from being pincushion #1...for example.Curiously when somebody say "Hey, fighters in my group do great" it is common that sombody else aswer "personal experiences do not matter"And before someone rehashes this argument that my posts are entirely within the realm of theorycraft - it's not theory. I've been running 3.x/PF since its launch in 2000.With tons and tons of house rules and "interesting" readings of how spells and rules work and interact.
Anecdotal evidence however is hard to prove one way or the other. It is heresay, and easily manipulated to the users bias. It is also commonly represented as fact, which it is often enough far from.
In my experience a higher level wizard ceases to need a fighter because he has an abundance of defensive spells and has control that can defend the front lines. I still wouldn't like a fighter personally, because if I had a choice of him and other martials I'd prefer a barbarian or ranger. They have additional skills to add out of combat and barbarian is harder to keep down with spells. They are both easily fill the "Mundane Martial" role depending on how you fluff or what your choices in abilities are.
You know the fighter is the best catalyst for buffs. They have bad resistances? So does the wizard. Mass buff fix two problems. Also the WoP Accelerate gives fighters a non-AC reducing pounce and can also be a mass buff. Fighters have the best AC and DPR of anyone else in the game. Other classes cover the other roles of combat so the fighter can jump in and kill things.
...and it's my thought that ONLY personal experiences truly matter...as it's people playing the game, and enjoying it. It's people playing the fighter that saves the wizard from being pincushion #1...for example.Curiously when somebody say "Hey, fighters in my group do great" it is common that sombody else aswer "personal experiences do not matter"And before someone rehashes this argument that my posts are entirely within the realm of theorycraft - it's not theory. I've been running 3.x/PF since its launch in 2000.With tons and tons of house rules and "interesting" readings of how spells and rules work and interact.
Which any martial class can do...for example.
*sigh*...you do understand that had I not done what I did, there would have likely been significant damage to the party? We probably would have lost a squshy first level spellcaster or two, even with their bad tactics. I charged them alone on the first round, being the first in, and with a good initiative roll...they had no intentions of meleeing, but couldn't be far enough away to stop me.
There would have been significant damage to the party - if they weren't vegetable kobolds. Kobolds charging headlong into melee. I can't fathom how your party would have been severely damaged by this. Perhaps mentally damaged, from the shock of seeing so many kobolds committing suicide-by-adventurer.
Curiously when somebody say "Hey, fighters in my group do great" it is common that sombody else aswer "personal experiences do not matter"
Which is why I only mention personal experience in response to people claiming that hard evidence is purely in the realm of theory and doesn't reflect gaming tables. The issue people have with personal experiences is when people come in and say "well my experiences are..." with no real explanation. I can explain why fighters have had problems in games I've seen, ran, or have been a part of and I can show it through the rules.
But perhaps I just haven't been playing in the cabbage patch. >.>
I expect adventures to be dangerous and intelligent humanoids to act like intelligent humanoids. Where enemies do things like flee, regroup, scout, stalk, and ambush if those are their favorite tricks. Use terrain and home-field advantages. Or at the very least don't do the exact opposite of everything that is their strengths ("Dur we are kobolds, we are small, we have a -4 strength and our weapons are puny, and we absolutely hate fights we aren't sure to win...let us all rush that party of giants - read: man-sized adventurers - and melee with them").
Games where, y'know, things work like they do in the core rulebook. Lighting conditions are tracked, encumbrance is tracked, environmental conditions are tracked. You see things like traps that make sense for their environment. Monsters who act at least like real predatory creatures. Perhaps this is the reason my experiences with fighters are not matching with those shared by others. We are clearly playing a different game.
You know the fighter is the best catalyst for buffs. They have bad resistances? So does the wizard. Mass buff fix two problems. Also the WoP Accelerate gives fighters a non-AC reducing pounce and can also be a mass buff. Fighters have the best AC and DPR of anyone else in the game. Other classes cover the other roles of combat so the fighter can jump in and kill things.
Actually barbarians have comparative AC at low levels and exceed fighters in all defenses at high levels (they have more Hp, AC, saves, etc).
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...and it's my thought that ONLY personal experiences truly matter...as it's people playing the game, and enjoying it. It's people playing the fighter that saves the wizard from being pincushion #1...for example.Curiously when somebody say "Hey, fighters in my group do great" it is common that sombody else aswer "personal experiences do not matter"And before someone rehashes this argument that my posts are entirely within the realm of theorycraft - it's not theory. I've been running 3.x/PF since its launch in 2000.With tons and tons of house rules and "interesting" readings of how spells and rules work and interact.
Which any martial class can do...for example.
*sigh*...you do understand that had I not done what I did, there would have likely been significant damage to the party? We probably would have lost a squshy first level spellcaster or two, even with their bad tactics. I charged them alone on the first round, being the first in, and with a good initiative roll...they had no intentions of meleeing, but couldn't be far enough away to stop me.There would have been significant damage to the party - if they weren't vegetable kobolds. Kobolds charging headlong into melee. I can't fathom how your party would have been severely damaged by this. Perhaps mentally damaged, from the shock of seeing so many kobolds committing suicide-by-adventurer.
Curiously when somebody say "Hey, fighters in my group do great" it is common that sombody else aswer "personal experiences do not matter"Which is why I only mention personal experience in response to people claiming that hard evidence is purely in the realm of theory and doesn't reflect gaming tables. The issue people have with personal experiences is when people come in and say "well my experiences are..." with no real explanation. I can explain why fighters have had problems in games I've seen, ran, or have...
THEY didn't charge headlong into melee. I did. Pay attention, this is getting old. Javelins have a range of 30'. Do the math.
You know the fighter is the best catalyst for buffs. They have bad resistances? So does the wizard. Mass buff fix two problems. Also the WoP Accelerate gives fighters a non-AC reducing pounce and can also be a mass buff. Fighters have the best AC and DPR of anyone else in the game. Other classes cover the other roles of combat so the fighter can jump in and kill things.Actually barbarians have comparative AC at low levels and exceed fighters in all defenses at high levels (they have more Hp, AC, saves, etc).
False their AC is aweful. -4 from rage pounce and then no heavy armor. The WoP wizard can put an emanation burst effect of anti-magic field on the fighter and laugh as the fighter obliterates all those save or die casters.
EDIT: Barbars roll saves against buffs, making them worse for team play.
You know the fighter is the best catalyst for buffs. They have bad resistances? So does the wizard. Mass buff fix two problems. Also the WoP Accelerate gives fighters a non-AC reducing pounce and can also be a mass buff. Fighters have the best AC and DPR of anyone else in the game. Other classes cover the other roles of combat so the fighter can jump in and kill things.Actually barbarians have comparative AC at low levels and exceed fighters in all defenses at high levels (they have more Hp, AC, saves, etc).False their AC is aweful. -4 from rage pounce and then no heavy armor. The WoP wizard can put an emanation burst effect of anti-magic field on the fighter and laugh as the fighter obliterates all those save or die casters.
EDIT: Barbars roll saves against buffs, making them worse for team play.
You buff before hand or let them buff then rage. I love my haste. In combat healing is usually a bad thing if it has to happen.
They also can wear heavy armor with a feat or dip, and if you happen to be a pounce charger your going to have a grab Beast Totem, which increase your natural armor.
THEY didn't charge headlong into melee. I did. Pay attention, this is getting old. Javelins have a range of 30'. Do the math.
It's not that easy to follow you. Here is a quote from your post:
The rest of the party was there, but I took the lead, and the kobolds could not get past me, and only got 3 or 4 attacks against me before realizing that wouldn't work
Here you imply that they are trying to "get past you" (presumably to the squishy interior of your party with the casters). You weren't exactly the clearest pane in the panel.
Javalins have a 30 ft. range increment. You can throw them from up to 150 ft. away. Taking a -2 to hit from up to 60 ft. away won't reduce their to-hit to less than their melee and it allows them to focus-fire from relative safety.
Any kobold worth his salt isn't going to let you charge him anyway. If you're in a dungeon with kobolds you don't want to be recklessly charging anyway (god only knows what manner of stupid mousetraps await your toes in the dark).
I can do the math. The math comes back vegetable.
False their AC is aweful. -4 from rage pounce and then no heavy armor. The WoP wizard can put an emanation burst effect of anti-magic field on the fighter and laugh as the fighter obliterates all those save or die casters.
It would be nice if we had some sort of sticky thread archive for this junk.
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Maybe someone isn't getting the narrative, here. We arrived at the 'dungeon'...I peeked in, and saw figures about 50-60' away (close enough that they didn't take 2 range mods of minuses)...and I charged. I got a surprise round, and killed one. I killed a second when I beat everyone's initiative, and they tried to attack me...but had to move in, to do it. I killed 2 or 3 on AoOs...they fled.
No, they were NOT 'cabbages'...but they were also not tacticians.
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THEY didn't charge headlong into melee. I did. Pay attention, this is getting old. Javelins have a range of 30'. Do the math.It's not that easy to follow you. Here is a quote from your post:
The rest of the party was there, but I took the lead, and the kobolds could not get past me, and only got 3 or 4 attacks against me before realizing that wouldn't workHere you imply that they are trying to "get past you" (presumably to the squishy interior of your party with the casters). You weren't exactly the clearest pane in the panel.
Javalins have a 30 ft. range increment. You can throw them from up to 150 ft. away. Taking a -2 to hit from up to 60 ft. away won't reduce their to-hit to less than their melee and it allows them to focus-fire from relative safety.
Any kobold worth his salt isn't going to let you charge him anyway. If you're in a dungeon with kobolds you don't want to be recklessly charging anyway (god only knows what manner of stupid mousetraps await your toes in the dark).
I can do the math. The math comes back vegetable.
False their AC is aweful. -4 from rage pounce and then no heavy armor. The WoP wizard can put an emanation burst effect of anti-magic field on the fighter and laugh as the fighter obliterates all those save or die casters.It would be nice if we had some sort of sticky thread archive for this junk.
Never mind.
You're incapable of simple objectivity. You have decided, and that's that. Trash the respect.
You know the fighter is the best catalyst for buffs. They have bad resistances? So does the wizard. Mass buff fix two problems. Also the WoP Accelerate gives fighters a non-AC reducing pounce and can also be a mass buff. Fighters have the best AC and DPR of anyone else in the game. Other classes cover the other roles of combat so the fighter can jump in and kill things.Actually barbarians have comparative AC at low levels and exceed fighters in all defenses at high levels (they have more Hp, AC, saves, etc).False their AC is aweful. -4 from rage pounce and then no heavy armor. The WoP wizard can put an emanation burst effect of anti-magic field on the fighter and laugh as the fighter obliterates all those save or die casters.
EDIT: Barbars roll saves against buffs, making them worse for team play.
You buff before hand or let them buff then rage. I love my haste. In combat healing is usually a bad thing if it has to happen.
They also can wear heavy armor with a feat or dip, and if you happen to be a pounce charger your going to have a grab Beast Totem, which increase your natural armor.
Not to mention that since everyone and their neighbor on the boards always spams the protection from evil wayfinder as though it's some sort of god's gift vs charm effects or whatever. If that's cool to say fighters are A-OK 'cause there's a wayfinder, then we should probably note that you can just get a wayfinder and spend 1 feat to enter and exit rages at will without becoming fatigued (or ever being fatigued or exhausted again!) which also makes buffing simple and easy - especially due to the actions such as Begin a Full-Round Action, Delay, and Ready.
On my wizard I ready to cast haste when the barbarian stops raging. The barbarian's turn comes around and s/he doesn't continue to rage. I cast. Barbarian enters rage. All is right in the world.
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Any comparison between melee classes has to be equitable in the following ways.
1) Use the same stat array. Deviating from this will show a quick weakness to MAD. A class should not be dependent on having an uber stat. What each class can do with the same stat array is a good comparison between classes. Who can better point buy is not. I usually recommend the elite array of 15 14 13 12 10 8.
2) Use the same non-class specific, generic magic items. Class specific items are a tax on the class, i.e. Gloves of Dueling, Furious Weapons, etc., and they generally counter-balance one another while artificially hiding problems. If there is some variation, both should agree on alternatives, i.e. the barb gets mithral BP + Jingasa of Fortune, and the fighter gets mithral full plate, as the cost is about the same,a nd they provide the same protective function.
3) Stay away from controversial skills and abilities. More a 3.5 problem. Stay away from items that grant broad immunities, i.e. ioun stone + Wayfinder for Prot/Evil is effectively an item tax if everyone is taking it so they don't have to buff a will save. Likeiwse, the Bracer of Falcon's Aim was too cheap for its original price, etc.
4) Ignore race entirely, or absolutely minimize the contribution of race, esp as regards racial traits and favored class options. These again are used to hide the weaknesses of the class with non-class derived options. This includes 'pseudo-race' options like Bloodlines.
5) General and bonus feats should stay away from race-specific options entirely. Class specific are fine.
6) Stay away from archetypes, and abilities that are extremely reliant on archetypes and sub-class related powers, like Bloodlines. This is especially true for Fighters, because it often restricts weapon and/or armor/shield options. Exceptions can be allowed, but should be noted as non-core. If it's not an option open to ALL members of a class, it's a hidden feat tax.
Once you've done this, the points of comparison are:
1) DPR - Normal comparison point of all melee. This should include 'burst' DPR, and note special circumstances (i.e. the Ranger can make any target his best FE).
2) AC, and Damage Reduction. These are the ability to take attacks.
3) Defenses. This primarily means saving throws, but also includes immunities based on class. Importantly, racial benefits are NOT to be included in a class comparison, as they again tend to cover for a class weakness when used that way, and the weakness returns if a different class is chosen and those options are not available.
4) Movement should be noted, if a bonus to normal speed. Note that at higher levels, access to flight magic can make this superfluous.
5) Skills and skill points usable.
6) 'Down time' usefulness. What can the character do when not adventuring that is a contribution, that is NOT 'role-playing'? We're talking mechanical usefulness, not socializing, which anyone and everyone can do.
As soon as you start deviating from these guidelines, start relying on specific weapons, bloodlines, races, racial traits, and whatnot, it's not about the class, it's about the whole character, and the class comparison falls flat.
The comparison should basically be, "If I took Joe X and had a choice of taking the fighter class or the barb class, which would be better, all else remaining fairly equal?"
Do that, and you start seeing problems between classes.
==Aelryinth
No, they were NOT 'cabbages'...but they were also not tacticians.
They were pretty awful though. Death by AoO and they got charged. Charge in a surprise round is only one movement increment so you were 30 feet away give or take and they didn't notice you or have any traps set.
You know the fighter is the best catalyst for buffs. They have bad resistances? So does the wizard. Mass buff fix two problems. Also the WoP Accelerate gives fighters a non-AC reducing pounce and can also be a mass buff. Fighters have the best AC and DPR of anyone else in the game. Other classes cover the other roles of combat so the fighter can jump in and kill things.Actually barbarians have comparative AC at low levels and exceed fighters in all defenses at high levels (they have more Hp, AC, saves, etc).False their AC is aweful. -4 from rage pounce and then no heavy armor. The WoP wizard can put an emanation burst effect of anti-magic field on the fighter and laugh as the fighter obliterates all those save or die casters.
EDIT: Barbars roll saves against buffs, making them worse for team play.
You buff before hand or let them buff then rage. I love my haste. In combat healing is usually a bad thing if it has to happen.
They also can wear heavy armor with a feat or dip, and if you happen to be a pounce charger your going to have a grab Beast Totem, which increase your natural armor.
You won't get 1 round/lvl combat buffs before combat unless you have the complete drop on an encounter, which at that point you have already won and it doesn't matter if you have a fighter or a barbar.
Ah natural armor, but does that stack with gear or overcome a -4 to AC? Still without the pounce advantage the barbar and the fighter are far more even and the fighter doesn't roll a +6 to saves vs buffs and condition removal.
Now if a barbar grabs heavy armor they lose a feat and fast movement unless they spring for mithral, but at that point the barbar is just throwing gold at the problem.
Yup. Schrodinger's Wizard as usual...
Wizards came up in that quote?
Anti-Magic field is centered on you the caster and moves with you. You can't 'give it away', unfortunately. The only way a fighter gets an A-M shell is the ANti-Magic Torc from 3.5 OR using a scroll on himself.
And then the problem is that the fighter loses all his magic buffs, which means if he's fighting a level appropriate non-magical creature he's going to be in a world of hurt!
==Aelryinth
Never mind.
You're incapable of simple objectivity. You have decided, and that's that. Trash the respect.
Whatever you say man. From where I'm sitting I'm the model of objectivity. That is, I'm being objective and not letting my emotions get involved. I'm looking at the data that is being provided. You give an example of your fighter's contribution in his native environment (combat) and you give an example of a situation that sounds really poor, and then it seems to get bits and bits of more details, and then it moves to you snuck up on them and peeked inside and got the drop on them, etc.
And the fact is I really don't care. Initially you acted like it was somehow a real combat and by the time we've reached here it's you ambushing kobolds outside your charge range (50 ft. away means no charging during the surprise round, so you were cheating too) and then being ground-zero with them and killing them 'cause you rolled initiative. Your examples aren't even in keeping with the rules.
But it does seem like you are very attached. Like you have an objective yourself. I really don't care. I enjoy discussing game mechanics, nothing more. I'm quick to mention the 3.x Paladin was made of failure, but the Pathfinder Paladin is really well crafted. Paladin fanatic? Nay, just observing.
I can only make use of what I have and others give me. I have a lot. Others are giving very little. I just go with what's there.
Any comparison between melee classes has to be equitable in the following ways.
1) Use the same stat array. Deviating from this will show a quick weakness to MAD. A class should not be dependent on having an uber stat. What each class can do with the same stat array is a good comparison between classes. Who can better point buy is not. I usually recommend the elite array of 15 14 13 12 10 8.
2) Use the same non-class specific, generic magic items. Class specific items are a tax on the class, i.e. Gloves of Dueling, Furious Weapons, etc., and they generally counter-balance one another while artificially hiding problems. If there is some variation, both should agree on alternatives, i.e. the barb gets mithral BP + Jingasa of Fortune, and the fighter gets mithral full plate, as the cost is about the same,a nd they provide the same protective function.
3) Stay away from controversial skills and abilities. More a 3.5 problem. Stay away from items that grant broad immunities, i.e. ioun stone + Wayfinder for Prot/Evil is effectively an item tax if everyone is taking it so they don't have to buff a will save. Likeiwse, the Bracer of Falcon's Aim was too cheap for its original price, etc.
4) Ignore race entirely, or absolutely minimize the contribution of race, esp as regards racial traits and favored class options. These again are used to hide the weaknesses of the class with non-class derived options. This includes 'pseudo-race' options like Bloodlines.
5) General and bonus feats should stay away from race-specific options entirely. Class specific are fine.
6) Stay away from archetypes, and abilities that are extremely reliant on archetypes and sub-class related powers, like Bloodlines. This is especially true for Fighters, because it often restricts weapon and/or armor/shield options. Exceptions can be allowed, but should be noted as non-core. If it's not an option open to ALL members of a class, it's a hidden feat tax.
Once you've done this, the points of comparison are:
1) DPR - Normal...
Great post Ael. :)
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No, they were NOT 'cabbages'...but they were also not tacticians.They were pretty awful though. Death by AoO and they got charged. Charge in a surprise round is only one movement increment so you were 30 feet away give or take and they didn't notice you or have any traps set.
They were impressed into service...recently...by fear. Likely, they'd never fought for their lives, ever.
Not to mention that since everyone and their neighbor on the boards always spams the protection from evil wayfinder as though it's some sort of god's gift vs charm effects or whatever. If that's cool to say fighters are A-OK 'cause there's a wayfinder, then we should probably note that you can just get a wayfinder and spend 1 feat to enter and exit rages at will without becoming fatigued (or ever being fatigued or exhausted again!) which also makes buffing simple and easy - especially due to the actions such as Begin a Full-Round Action, Delay, and Ready.
On my wizard I ready to cast haste when the barbarian stops raging. The barbarian's turn comes around and s/he doesn't continue to rage. I cast. Barbarian enters rage. All is right in the world.
There are more buffs than haste and PfE. Many of which are situational and can come up mid fight.
So you mentioned wayfinders which are ion stones and then some other feat the barbar needs to get. So far the barbar needs 2 feats and 4 rage powers to get what a fighter can get through teamwork at no cost to himself, allowing him to focus on a plethora of other things.
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Never mind.You're incapable of simple objectivity. You have decided, and that's that. Trash the respect.
Yup. Schrodinger's Wizard as usual...
Rynjin made a thread (albiet not level by level...), perhaps this uber wizard could make an appearance over there?
My character was built in 3.5, and would be dramatically different in Pathfinder...he'd have to switch to Meteor Hammer, for one...and that feat he used is gone.
Anti-Magic field is centered on you the caster and moves with you. You can't 'give it away', unfortunately. The only way a fighter gets an A-M shell is the ANti-Magic Torc from 3.5 OR using a scroll on himself.
And then the problem is that the fighter loses all his magic buffs, which means if he's fighting a level appropriate non-magical creature he's going to be in a world of hurt!
==Aelryinth
Words of Power; Negation, 10-40ft radius emanation(should you chose) on the fighter.
If he is fighting a wizard or other bad caster then that is all he needs. If another matial is there he loses his buffs too.
Considering how situational the application is, a superstitious barbar could not pull of this tactic.
They were impressed into service...recently...by fear. Likely, they'd never fought for their lives, ever.No, they were NOT 'cabbages'...but they were also not tacticians.They were pretty awful though. Death by AoO and they got charged. Charge in a surprise round is only one movement increment so you were 30 feet away give or take and they didn't notice you or have any traps set.
So you're saying they were kobold commoners too? Damn. That sucks even worse. See, even in 3.5, kobolds are usually warriors trained for combat (at least the generic one in the MM is, and it notes that you usually encounter them with the following organizations: "Gang (4-9), band (10-100 plus 100% noncombatants plus 1 3rd-level sergeant per 20 adults and 1 leader of 4th-6th level), warband (10-24 plus 2-4 dire weasels), tribe (40-400 plus 1 3rd-level sergeant per 20 adults, 1 or 2 lieutenants of 4th or 5th level, 1 leader of 6th-8th level, and 5-8 dire weasels)".
It's also weird that you say they had no traps set, yet earlier you noted that they ran past a trap that you avoided. Specifically that they "ran around a corner past a pit trap" and that you followed them and killed them.
It's hard to get it pinned down, but I am trying my best to listen to you.
From where I'm sitting I'm the model of objectivity.I'm just going to leave this here so you can re-read what you wrote and really think about it.
"From where you are sitting" you are "the model of objectivity."
If I wrote that about you, I would get flagged...
Just pointing out that it works both ways. I have no emotional or personal bias in the matter. I only care about the facts, evidence, and the argument of those proposing a different idea from my own experiences with both gameplay and what I've seen mechanically.
That's the definition of being objective. So where someone says I am incapable of objectivity it is in response to my actually being objective.
not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.
Nothing out of the ordinary.
Not to mention that since everyone and their neighbor on the boards always spams the protection from evil wayfinder as though it's some sort of god's gift vs charm effects or whatever. If that's cool to say fighters are A-OK 'cause there's a wayfinder, then we should probably note that you can just get a wayfinder and spend 1 feat to enter and exit rages at will without becoming fatigued (or ever being fatigued or exhausted again!) which also makes buffing simple and easy - especially due to the actions such as Begin a Full-Round Action, Delay, and Ready.
On my wizard I ready to cast haste when the barbarian stops raging. The barbarian's turn comes around and s/he doesn't continue to rage. I cast. Barbarian enters rage. All is right in the world.
There are more buffs than haste and PfE. Many of which are situational and can come up mid fight.
So you mentioned wayfinders which are ion stones and then some other feat the barbar needs to get. So far the barbar needs 2 feats and 4 rage powers to get what a fighter can get through teamwork at no cost to himself, allowing him to focus on a plethora of other things.
1 rage power. The end.
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Never mind.
You're incapable of simple objectivity. You have decided, and that's that. Trash the respect.
Whatever you say man. From where I'm sitting I'm the model of objectivity. That is, I'm being objective and not letting my emotions get involved. I'm looking at the data that is being provided. You give an example of your fighter's contribution in his native environment (combat) and you give an example of a situation that sounds really poor, and then it seems to get bits and bits of more details, and then it moves to you snuck up on them and peeked inside and got the drop on them, etc.
And the fact is I really don't care. Initially you acted like it was somehow a real combat and by the time we've reached here it's you ambushing kobolds outside your charge range (50 ft. away means no charging during the surprise round, so you were cheating too) and then being ground-zero with them and killing them 'cause you rolled initiative. Your examples aren't even in keeping with the rules.
But it does seem like you are very attached. Like you have an objective yourself. I really don't care. I enjoy discussing game mechanics, nothing more. I'm quick to mention the 3.x Paladin was made of failure, but the Pathfinder Paladin is really well crafted. Paladin fanatic? Nay, just observing.
I can only make use of what I have and others give me. I have a lot. Others are giving very little. I just go with what's there.
I'll grant that I don't remember it perfectly...it was years ago (05?), and at 51, my memory isn't perfect. I might not have had a surprise round...or maybe they were closer. I do remember beating everyone's initiative, and them being right by where the very wide corridor turned.
I did charge in, and killed one before anyone else had an action, and killed more with AoOs before anybody else did much of significance...their initiative wasn't bad, and most of the party was still coming through the door.
cabbage patch?
1 rage power. The end.Not to mention that since everyone and their neighbor on the boards always spams the protection from evil wayfinder as though it's some sort of god's gift vs charm effects or whatever. If that's cool to say fighters are A-OK 'cause there's a wayfinder, then we should probably note that you can just get a wayfinder and spend 1 feat to enter and exit rages at will without becoming fatigued (or ever being fatigued or exhausted again!) which also makes buffing simple and easy - especially due to the actions such as Begin a Full-Round Action, Delay, and Ready.
On my wizard I ready to cast haste when the barbarian stops raging. The barbarian's turn comes around and s/he doesn't continue to rage. I cast. Barbarian enters rage. All is right in the world.
There are more buffs than haste and PfE. Many of which are situational and can come up mid fight.
So you mentioned wayfinders which are ion stones and then some other feat the barbar needs to get. So far the barbar needs 2 feats and 4 rage powers to get what a fighter can get through teamwork at no cost to himself, allowing him to focus on a plethora of other things.
Oh so superstitious, the beast totem tree, and whatever your talking about using wayfinder with (which is probably once per day) and the ability to wear heavy armor ALL COST 1 rage power. I call BS.
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They were impressed into service...recently...by fear. Likely, they'd never fought for their lives, ever.No, they were NOT 'cabbages'...but they were also not tacticians.They were pretty awful though. Death by AoO and they got charged. Charge in a surprise round is only one movement increment so you were 30 feet away give or take and they didn't notice you or have any traps set.So you're saying they were kobold commoners too? Damn. That sucks even worse. See, even in 3.5, kobolds are usually warriors trained for combat (at least the generic one in the MM is, and it notes that you usually encounter them with the following organizations: "Gang (4-9), band (10-100 plus 100% noncombatants plus 1 3rd-level sergeant per 20 adults and 1 leader of 4th-6th level), warband (10-24 plus 2-4 dire weasels), tribe (40-400 plus 1 3rd-level sergeant per 20 adults, 1 or 2 lieutenants of 4th or 5th level, 1 leader of 6th-8th level, and 5-8 dire weasels)".
It's also weird that you say they had no traps set, yet earlier you noted that they ran past a trap that you avoided. Specifically that they "ran around a corner past a pit trap" and that you followed them and killed them.
It's hard to get it pinned down, but I am trying my best to listen to you.
Straight out of the MM. If you think that always means they know tactics, you might be silly.
Yes, I did avoid the pit trap...in fact, I saw where they went, and went the same way. Is that so difficult to understand?
I'll grant that I don't remember it perfectly...it was years ago (05?), and at 51, my memory isn't perfect. I might not have had a surprise round...or maybe they were closer. I do remember beating everyone's initiative, and them being right by where the very wide corridor turned.
I did charge in, and killed one before anyone else had an action, and killed more with AoOs before anybody else did much of significance...their initiative wasn't bad, and most of the party was still coming through the door.
Okay so let's be fair here. The event that you are describing is at best nebulous to you. I'm sure you had a great time. There's nothing wrong with that. You must understand that - due to my objectivity - that it's difficult to accept your story that is - again - nebulous and uncertain at best as a great evidence for the Fighter when everything keeps changing, shifting, and has examples that sound like the rules weren't even being followed (which isn't unfair since you guys were just beginning 3.5 according to your description).
I hold no ill will towards you at all. Just please understand why this doesn't really do much for me.
cabbage patch?
Consider it a slang noun with the definition of "A place where its inhabitants are as vegetables".
Oh so superstitious, the beast totem tree, and whatever your talking about using wayfinder with (which is probably once per day) and the ability to wear heavy armor ALL COST 1 rage power. I call BS.
I thought you were referring to the rage-cycling thing which only requires 1 rage power that is useful to have anyway and an ioun stone (a fairly cheap one in fact) that makes you sickened or nauseated when you would be fatigued or exhausted (and it's 24/7, all day, every day). When you enter a rage (a non-action done on your turn) you clear the conditions. Easy-peasy.
I'd trade a bonus feat for every rage power you mentioned though. :P
okay so who is in this patch of cabbages
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I'll grant that I don't remember it perfectly...it was years ago (05?), and at 51, my memory isn't perfect. I might not have had a surprise round...or maybe they were closer. I do remember beating everyone's initiative, and them being right by where the very wide corridor turned.
I did charge in, and killed one before anyone else had an action, and killed more with AoOs before anybody else did much of significance...their initiative wasn't bad, and most of the party was still coming through the door.
Okay so let's be fair here. The event that you are describing is at best nebulous to you. I'm sure you had a great time. There's nothing wrong with that. You must understand that - due to my objectivity - that it's difficult to accept your story that is - again - nebulous and uncertain at best as a great evidence for the Fighter when everything keeps changing, shifting, and has examples that sound like the rules weren't even being followed (which isn't unfair since you guys were just beginning 3.5 according to your description).
I hold no ill will towards you at all. Just please understand why this doesn't really do much for me.
cabbage patch?Consider it a slang noun with the definition of "A place where its inhabitants are as vegetables".
Oh so superstitious, the beast totem tree, and whatever your talking about using wayfinder with (which is probably once per day) and the ability to wear heavy armor ALL COST 1 rage power. I call BS.I thought you were referring to the rage-cycling thing which only requires 1 rage power that is useful to have anyway and an ioun stone (a fairly cheap one in fact) that makes you sickened or nauseated when you would be fatigued or exhausted (and it's 24/7, all day, every day). When you enter a rage (a non-action done on your turn) you clear the conditions. Easy-peasy.
I'd trade a bonus feat for every rage power you mentioned though. :P
Not *that* nebulous, and I've described it the same every time, just trying to explain various aspects that you don't seem to get.
If I was to explain it without game terminology, it would read fluidly, and make sense completely.
Oh so superstitious, the beast totem tree, and whatever your talking about using wayfinder with (which is probably once per day) and the ability to wear heavy armor ALL COST 1 rage power. I call BS.I thought you were referring to the rage-cycling thing which only requires 1 rage power that is useful to have anyway and an ioun stone (a fairly cheap one in fact) that makes you sickened or nauseated when you would be fatigued or exhausted (and it's 24/7, all day, every day). When you enter a rage (a non-action done on your turn) you clear the conditions. Easy-peasy.
I'd trade a bonus feat for every rage power you mentioned though. :P
You might, but my fighter gets all of those things through teamwork, buff spells and weapon training(equal DPR). Oh and then he gets bonus feats. Your barbar saved against all the buffs and now is behind the fighter in party team usefulness.
Does nobody target the barbarian when he is not raging and have low saves? Does nobody target the wizard when the barbarian is bussy ready the action? Does the monsters just stop fighting while the barbarian get buffed?
Not to mention that since everyone and their neighbor on the boards always spams the protection from evil wayfinder as though it's some sort of god's gift vs charm effects or whatever. If that's cool to say fighters are A-OK 'cause there's a wayfinder, then we should probably note that you can just get a wayfinder and spend 1 feat to enter and exit rages at will without becoming fatigued (or ever being fatigued or exhausted again!) which also makes buffing simple and easy - especially due to the actions such as Begin a Full-Round Action, Delay, and Ready.On my wizard I ready to cast haste when the barbarian stops raging. The barbarian's turn comes around and s/he doesn't continue to rage. I cast. Barbarian enters rage. All is right in the world.
1. Caster readies action to cast buffing spell "When [Barbarian] stops raging."
2. Barbarian stops raging on their turn as a free action.3. Caster's readied action is triggered, and they cast the buffing spell.
4. Barbarian begins raging as a free action.
At no time is the barbarian vulnerable to enemy spells, unless they also readied an action to cast "when [Barbarian] stops raging."
EDIT: Deleted my other posts. Didn't want to clutter the thread.