Ok, not exactly challenging, but I like the play on words!
We have a party of 7 level 4 players and a new GM. So, he's trying to ask me and my friend, both fairly experienced GMs, how to handle the encounters. Well, we both have only had 4-man parties, so we're not 100%. What kind of encounters would be suggested for a 7-man party of level 4 characters?
This thread here asked a very similar question, except it was for 9 characters. I think my responses in the thread will help you and your GM out quite a bit.
Basically, your GM just needs to design encounters assuming APL+1, and give lots of minions for the party to attack.
We're thinking about doing it APL +2 because this group was able to down a Babau Demon as a level 3 group of 4 characters...
Keep in mind that even APL+3 is likely not a challenge when there's only one target. Don't overcompensate because they won the Babau encounter.
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I GM with a 7-people group; in my experience the standard answer is "more monsters".
Monsters of roughly the same CR as the PCs have abilities that the PCs can handle. If there's much more PCs than monsters they gang up on the monsters and gain unfair advantage in the number of actions they take in total each round. You can compensate that by adding more monsters of the same kind.
The alternate approach, take a higher-CR monster, is not ideal. Often the monster will still get swamped by the number of actions the PCs get to take. But on the other hand, any time it hits a PC that's gonna be close to a killing blow. So these combats are extremely swingy. A big problem in these kinds of combats is action-denial powers (Hold Monster etc.); either they don't work at all because the monster is too powerful, or if they do work, they win the encounter on their own.
I think it's best to just increase encounter size with more PC-level-ish CR monsters, than taking one big boss. Mostly; it's of course nice to vary things a bit, sometimes you bring an entire horde of weak monsters so the Whirlwind/Fireball crowd can get its kicks, and rarely a solo monster, but knowing that's gonna be a tricky battle with high chance of either faster monster death or massive PC casualties.
My most recent fight was 3 CR 2 crocodiles against a 7 people party at level 3, on a river. It went pretty well; one crocodile out of the fight with Hold Animal from round 1, while one other managed to drag a PC out of the canoe and knocked him out. Hint: you don't want to be unconscious in the water. Only quick concerted PC action saved him from drowning. All in all a good fight that was pretty nicely on-target for difficulty.
Keep in mind that even APL+3 is likely not a challenge when there's only one target. Don't overcompensate because they won the Babau encounter.
To add to that, you also have to look how much of their resources they burned to accomplish that. Quite a few characters can go nova and use much more resources in a short time, it is not unreasonable for a party to bring down a babau at level 3 and another two level appropriate encounters at CR = APL. It does depend a bit on the situation and resources the players had on hand but that in itself is not saying much.
Well, when I say they took it down, they thought outside the box and slaughtered it. Only one person took any damage, besides the Babau. No one died at all. It was quite impressive. And, like I said, due to this, I'm considering APL +2, not +3. so, a CR 6 with minions. I'm very certain our group could handle that. Whenever the challenge is higher, they seem to roll a lot better.
For an average encounter, 2-3 monsters of CR 3-4 isn't bad...a tougher encounter, 2-3 CR 5, maybe. If you really want one - like a boss fight - CR 8, probably. That should threaten PC death...but you're going to have 7:1 attacks...or maybe 7:2...
You'd want to give the CR 8 minions to make it more like a real boss fight.
Ok. Here's one of the very relevant responses from the other thread, modified and reposted on this thread:
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Note: The following has been altered from the original post. It was originally for nine Level 1 characters.
I'll use some different ways of calculating appropriate CR for encounters here. You can read about them in the Gamemastering section of the Core Rule Book.
Assuming 7 players at 4th level is APL+2 = APL 6, let's evaluate some CR 6 example encounters. We'll look at the 1 big bad guy, a pair of baddies, a BBEG with minions, and a small horde.
1 BBEG:
1 Babau is CR 6. He's somewhat difficult to hit (AC 19), and he's got a lot of hit points. What makes him challenging is his at will powers. He can see invisibility, he can dispel magic (turning all those magic weapons and armor into non-magical for a short time, albeit only one item per round) making it more difficult for the players. Every time he's hit, your weapons will have to make a Reflex Save DC 18 or take 1d8 acid damage. This can destroy those temporary non-magical weapons you have. He has a 40% chance to bring in another Babau, which allows him to flank and then sneak attack (+2d6 to his claw, claw, bite). He can greater teleport at will, so he should be bouncing around the battlefield, getting into sneak position, and attacking from the shadows (to get those sneak attacks in). He in an assassin, after all. Oh, and he has darkness, which he should be spamming. He's tough, but with 7 players, action economy is against him. You'll likely win even if you GM does play him correctly. Remember, a babau is intelligent; he should be played that way. He should not be facing the entire party by himself; he should wait until they're asleep and assaulting one at a time, or trying to pull one character out from the group in a city or dungeon, attacking them, and then go back into hiding for another character. One vs seven isn't a smart move.
A Pair:
2 creatures is CR+2, so we're looking at two CR 4 monsters. Two hydras would be a good example. They're AC 15 so they're really easy to hit, but they have fast healing 5 and can regrow heads in 1d4 rounds. Their damage is low (1d8+3), but they make up for it in the number of attacks: 5 bites each with a 10' reach. This would make for a somewhat challenging encounter, but with 7 of you all focusing on one hydra at a time, you should be able to take them down relatively quickly.
BBEG and Minions:
BBEG: Harpy
Mooks: 3 humonculus
CR 6 encounter is 2400xp. Harpy is 1200xp, humonculus is 400xp x 3 = 1200xp. 1200 + 1200 = 2400xp for a CR 6 encounter.
A few more monsters equals a bit more action economy for the bad guys. Focusing on a single enemy only brings down the threat range by a little bit. The harpy can sing, captivating members of your group and making the whole group weaker, while the humonculi can come in an poison members and make them sleep. The humonculi should be focusing on the casters and people without armor, while the harpy focuses on the rest. They can all fly, and the harpy has flyby attack, so they should use the sky to their advantage. While any of these creatures would be easy for the party, this group should pose at least a small challenge if they use terrain and tactics to their advantage. With all of them being flyers, they should be where they can get cover easily in the sky, such as a forest or a cliff side.
Horde:
Kobolds (1/4 CR individually).
4 Kobolds = CR 1
20 Kobolds = CR 6
A 20 kobold horde should be a fun challenge for the party. They hold the action economy advantage (20 vs 7). They're easy to hit, and multiple can gang up on a character to make the battle seem frantic. Additionally, it'll give each of the players a chance to shine. The melee combatants can dive in swinging, the ranged characters can stand back and fire into the melee, and the controllers actually have a chance to control.
And that's just APL+2. APL+3 could probably destroy the party if appropriately played by the GM (depending on how well optimized the party is, and how well the party uses tactics and terrain to their advantage). For example, a CR 7 horde could be six skeletal champions or four wights!
Remember, in pathfinder action economy is king. If you want to create challenges for players, give them multiple targets.
You forget all the Damage Reduction a Babau has.
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For an average encounter, 2-3 monsters of CR 3-4 isn't bad...a tougher encounter, 2-3 CR 5, maybe. If you really want one - like a boss fight - CR 8, probably. That should threaten PC death...but you're going to have 7:1 attacks...or maybe 7:2...You'd want to give the CR 8 minions to make it more like a real boss fight.
Not really. That's a PL+2-3 encounter. That's the level at which one creature should be a significant challenge.
You forget all the Damage Reduction a Babau has.
:/
The point was to create different CR scenarios for creating a challenge for the party. Especially a party with more characters than usual. Something I've done in the past. Something which you specifically said you've never done and had asked for help with.
Next time someone gives you help, a "thank you" would be more appropriate rather than nitpicking their post.
BTW, the book says to use APL+1 for 6+ parties. I've noticed that APL+2 works for 9 character parties, so I figured that a 7 character party would still be in the range of APL+1. But I made my scenario example at APL+2 for you, because you requested APL+2.
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Here's my advice:
I've run a weekly Pathfinder RPG game since the Alpha playtest. I have often, if not frequently (monthly) kept mindful of the party's overall power with relation to the CRs I throw at them. I enjoy a challenge, and so do the players.
I use the formula described in the Gamemastery Guide (the one others note above), EXCEPT:
I add +1 CR due to the many years of experience of my players
I add +1 CR due to having 6 regular players
Thus, here is my modified table for my weekly group. On the left is the standard table; on the right in parenthesis is my modified table using an overall +2):
THE PAX VERITAS FORMULA
Easy APL –1 (+2 = APL+1)
Average APL (+2 = APL+2)
Challenging APL +1 (+2 = APL+3)
Hard APL +2 (+2 = APL+4)
Epic APL +3 (+2 = APL+5)
I've tested this repeatedly (for my group) and it works. Also, if your group doesn't have years of experience, but instead has a higher level of wealth and magic, you can substitue the rationale but still use a +1 to account for it. Either way an overall +1 over the recommended PAIZO guidelines is how I run my games. It took me many months to figure this out, and countless PAIZO messageboard posts. Thanks to everyone's input I finally landed on this system (for my group). Mileage may vary.
Hope that helps,
Pax
Edit: One important point about opponents >3 steps above the party level: some monsters, as James Jacobs points out, have powers that make the encounter impossible to defeat (once you get beyond the 3 level gap). To account for this: when you create your BBEG (end boss) battle, even if using my table, you want to ensure the boss is no greater than APL +3. You can use the additional gap in APL to account for minions, assistants, and others to fill the encounter with more creatures or dynamic accomplices. In short, you still can create an APL +5, with no one monster within that encounter being >APL+3 (or +4) if you think they can handle. Hope that makes sense.
Next time someone gives you help, a "thank you" would be more appropriate rather than nitpicking their post.
I'm, just saying. I do appreciate it, but, I mean, a Babau should be fairly out of their range. I did dumb the combat down a bit.