Weapon Finesse is an example of "power creep marches on" feat.You do realize that Weapon Finesse is from the CRB, yes?
That means it, by definition, cannot be power creep.
I think you misunderstand what I wrote. Weapon Finesse isn't power creep.
I must have. Could you please clarify it for me? It seems oddly worded to me.
Power creep matches forward - weapon finesse was envisioned at a time long ago, when noone had any idea of what the balance would be like in the final 3.0 product. Soon after release, casters were proven to be godlike, so splatbook upon splatbook came in to fix the issue. In 3.5 and PF, there are so many X to Y, Z instead of C and similar class features it isn't even funny, but Weapon Finesse got left in the fifteen year old dirt. I imagine any time a designer revisits the idea, he thinks "well, it's this old, and there are class features that obviate the issue, and it changes too much, so I don't want to bother." The ridiculous amount of limitations on WF alone is proof that noone gave it a single thought when porting the feat, and it's likely the reason why a feat such as Deadly Finesse or Finesse Strike or whatever you want to call it doesn't exist yet.
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Don't forget that this exists.
As a +1 bonus a character could get this fairly early, let's not forget that even if this feat we are talking about did exist, we would be having the argument about whether or not to actually take the feat, or just get a weapon with this.
Think it's about the same argument about taking Improved Critical or just getting a Keen weapon.
Case in point, the mechanics for this already exist in the game, I cannot see why the feat version would be different (since Keen isn't).
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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Honestly, I'd just copy the Agile description. You don't get dex and a half for two handing, but you do get 1/2 dex for off hand attacks. And that's that. It's easy, it's simple. Yes, it might be more powerful than strength, but you're paying a 2 feat tax to get there. That seems appropriate for me.
Don't forget the armor limitation too.
The armor limitation is not a limitation.
A high, dex-focused character isn't going to wear heavy, and probably not even medium, armor anyways...he's going to want to max out his dex bonus to AC. If you're starting at 18 Dex, your fighter armor training probably isn't going to keep up with your Dex bonus, so you're going to be in light armor.
==Aelryinth
If you can pay a 2 feat tax to get Str to AC, Reflex saves and Init, I'm all for Dex to damage sidelining Str.
==Aelryinth
There he goes, retarding the discussion again.
We've been over all of this before already.
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Well, the fact is people are never going to unanimously agree on anything. The key is pleasing the most people. I'm not touching the Strength to AC, Reflex, Init, etc question; that's off-topic and irrelevant. I would suggest you create a new thread for the discussion of such things.
Regarding the topic of the thread, I like the idea and I think mimicking the Agile quality's language would be best. It's not going to break anyone's game and it provides a dex-based fighter a means to shine without having to dip into roguery.
Don't forget the armor limitation too.
Yeah, I forgot, even damage to dex would be hampered by Armor. So that feature of pathfinder already kind of balances it out. Even with Shields and such Your AC is still going to be lower than the STR fighter who has both damage and defense (at the cost of maneuverability and skills)
Even with Dex as damage you'd now have to sacrifice either Damage or Defense, as Maneuverability isn't optional with a DEX build. The only way to get around this requires specific archetypes that have heavy penalties (Kensai Magus) or has the requirement of Prestige classes (duelist) and both of those require another stat to be rather high (Int in both cases)Now Mithril Agile-Armor Min-Maxing is still there, but that's always been a problem, and its always been solved by simply not mentioning Mithril's existence in a campaign.
I just find it interesting how people are all sorts of willing to give the primary function of strength to other ability scores, but never to give Str the function of other ability scores.
It's quite annoying, and it really starts minimizing the importance of the Str score, which has already received tons of devaluation.
The fact is, if you want to make a Dex fighter as good as a Str fighter, but with all the benefits of a high Dex, you shouldn't have any problem turning that around and giving a high Str character the benefits of a high Dex character. It's about conceptual balance. Otherwise, why EVER play something with high Str, mechanically?
And that's what you have to look at when handing out feats like this.
Note that Agile has some limitations: it costs gold, so you can't get it immediately; it's on ONE weapon, not any weapon; and it's in a PF splatbook, which are always for the power creep. A feat becomes inherently more powerful then a weapon enhancement, and certainly more ubiquitous.
I'm afraid I weigh against this simply because it devalues the role of Strength and power when fighting.
If you MUST have it, I'd go exactly like Agile...limit it to ONE WEAPON, like weapon spec...not with every weapon. I would probably have it also supplant (i.e. not stack with) Weapon Spec/GWS, but qualify as Weapon Spec as needed, so you could pick up GWF.
Leave something for the 'natural' way of fighting, aye?
If you don't, then you should really start going through the monsters and putting in this feat for those high dex creatures who'd just love the damage boost...
==Aelryinth
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Aelryinth, I'm pretty sure restricting DEX-to-damage from going to 1.5 is pretty good at keeping STR two-hand builds relevant (especially since the STR builds have much fewer feat requirements). I could even see STR 1-hand+shield Bullrush builds staying relevent (maybe not, due to Agile Maneuvers, but now that's three feats to do what STR does baseline, in addition to the large number of Sword&Board feats), since STR still governs encumbrance.
I could take or leave the restriction of treating DEX-to-damage as precision damage. It does make STR builds that much more versatile, but it won't stop DEX builds from existing.
It will probably need to be restricted from being applied to natural weapons, as well (which meshes with the precision damage context: I don't think most natural weapons lead themselves to being precise, although you could argue about go-for-the-throat tactics).
James Martin pretty much nailed it. The Agile weapon description is exactly what the feat should be.
@Aelryimth: You don't understand feat tax. And the fact that this does NOT make the Dex fighter anywhere CLOSE to the STR fighter in damage output AMD defense.
Um, what?
Encumberance is a hiccup issue.
Dex fighters will always have a higher AC then Str fighters...because, you know, Str does not contribute to AC. Heck, dex-based fighters can probably max out a Fighter's dex to AC bonus.
Seriously, go do the math.
If you start with an elite array, with a 15 in one stat and a 13 in the other, with a +2 to the one you select, that's a 17/13 combo. That means that the Dex guy has +2 AC, Init, Reflex saves, and Dex skill checks over the Str guy. At level 1. He's got more then enough str to use the same armor.
As he levels, guess what? He gets a str belt just like the str guy gets a dex belt.
At level 20, the 13 stat MIGHT be a 24 (+6 booster, +5 book). It might only be a 19, which is actually probable, since Con is probably more important.
The 17 will likely be a 33 (+5 levels, +6 booster, +5 Book).
So, Str guy has +12 from Str, and +7 OR +4 from Dex. Let's even go +5 by assuming his level 20 pt is Dex.
So he's +5 Dex, and +12 Str to hit and damage.
Dex guy pays 2 feats.
He's +12 to hit and damage, +12 to AC, +12 to Reflex saves, +12 to initiative, and +12 to Dex skills.
he ain't got no +5's. He's wearing mithral Celestial Plate and totally maxing out the Dex bonus to AC, boyo. His 20 Str and a haversack totally deal with encumberance issues. he's not having damage problems...he hits just as often as the brute with the 33, and he's much harder to hit in turn with anything...his is +Touch AC, after all!
If he's a TH'er using that elvish sword, he still gets 2h'er bonus on Power Attack, and if he misses out on the +6 extra for 2h str, eh, so what. At that level it's minor, and his defenses are so much better it's going to be lost in the shuffle. It's like he's carrying out a Touch AC Heavy Shield+5 over the Str guy.
And it cost him two feats! Wootie. If you can find two feats for the Str guy that give him +7 Dodge bonus to AC, +7 Init, +7 Reflex save, and +7 to Dex skills, we'll be all even. I mean, well, a barb rage power comes close on ONE of those, but the Init and Reflex save, hmm. That's gonna be hard. ANd hey, that barb rage power stacks with Dex, so our guy will probably take it, too...
So yes, I understand EXACTLY what a freaking feat tax is. And two feats is not near enough to pay for what you are getting out of feat like this, which everyone understands perfectly as soon as you turn the circumstance on it's ear and let Str get the bonus to AC, Reflex and Init that Dex grants.
It sounds so seductive to just let it happen, because it's only To-Hit, and then it's only damage. Except that is 99% of what Str is used for in the game. If we turn around and give away 99% of what Dex is used for in the game, it's a whine-fest. That shows you that the benefit is incredibly strong and majorly unbalanced.
==Aelryinth
Giving more power to Str seems like a good idea to me.
A feat to let you add half (?) You Str modifier to AC while using a shield. Or one that lets you wield bigger weapons with no penalty.
Something like that...
IMHO, Dex to damage should cost at least 2 feats, never add 1,5x dex on two-handed weapons, be considered precision damage and, maybe, not be usable with Power Attack.
With all these limitations (and the buffs to Str), it might be okay to allow it to be used with any finessable weapon.
As a relatively neutral party (I go back and forth alot) I guess the thing that would help me (and others like me) truly make up our mind is to see some definitive character builds, so people can make more informed decisions for themselves.
Honestly, while Dex IS a much more valuable stat than Str, spending 3 feats in order to apply Dex to damage is a pretty big deal. Sure, we get many more feats in Pathfinder than we did in D&D 3.5, but not so many more that this cost isn't significant, especially when you consider all of the new worthwhile feats introduced in PF.
I'd probably disallow the x1.5 for two-handers, and keep the x0.5 for off-hand weapon attacks, the first because it makes little sense, and the second strictly for balance.
Then I would also add some other feat as a prerequisite that isn't an auto-grab the way Weapon Finesse would be. Conversely, I'd consider having the feat apply to only a single, chosen weapon.
OR, limit the amount of Dex you can apply to your weapon damage by the max Dex bonus of your armor. Monks and a few other characters get a slight edge here, while this forces a little bit of a decision between defense and offense.
I guess it boils down to this: do you find the Agile weapon property to be too powerful? If not, then why do you feel that 3 feats are worth less than a +1 enhancement bonus weapon effect?
The katana, scimitar, and the curveblade are all finessable. Nobody is going to call them low damage. Scimitar is actually your best one handed weapon at higher levels (among the non-exotics).
Finessable weapons tend to be high crit, too. And honestly, everyone knows that the weapon itself tends to be the least important source of damage as you level. A Greatsword averages 7 pts a swing, a rapier 3.5. That's a 3.5 pt dmg spread. Str/Dex, spec, magic weapon, weapon training, power attack...everything else is more important.
And the funniest thing about all this is, if the finesse fighter doesn't get 1.5 Str, he's just as well off (almost) just being a one hander and using a buckler, which the 2hw guy can't use.
So that's a +13 AC bonus over the 2hw guy, or just +7 over the str sword and boarder.
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The easiest fix to Str is to allow the use of larger weapons, or at least weapons that use more damage dice. The latter buffs Vital Strike, also. It does stand to reason that someone stronger then any human that has ever lived on Earth (Str 24) should be able to pick up and wield crap that no human alive possibly could. When you hit 30 Str, c'mon, you can literally do bench counts with a Buick.
They don't have to be BIG. They just need to be HEAVY. And a strong guy can wield 'em where a finesse guy can't.
To do it, you'd have to make weapons with Str Requirements to wield. Sounds like a video game, doesn't it? Just stay away from the ridiculous sizes.
You could do the same by adding Str requirements to armor...again, what video games often do.
But I don't see THAT all happening either. And until it does, Dex really shouldn't ever apply to damage. It just throws the balance off way too much.
==Aelryinth
I do think Agile shouldn't be in the game. Without something for Str to counterbalance it, it just swings things too far in one direction and continues the devaluation of Str.
I'm conceptually against Guided weapons, too, but the monk is so MAD that it's hard to abuse it. Dex, however, is incredibly easy to abuse.
And one other thing...if you get Dex to damage on a melee weapon, just why don't you get it on a bow? Makes no sense to me...and we all know pure Dex to bow damage would just explode. Archers would have enough str to carry their gear, and that's it.
A level 20 Dex build will likely be an archer/ finesse weapon & buckler guy, I suspect. Consider the point that a Dex build also gets his best ability score with missile weapons, and a Str build does not, unless he just uses slings or javelins.
==Aelryinth
Hmm.
Leather Armor, Str req 8.
Studded Leather, 10
Chain Shirt, 11
Chain mail, 12.
Breastplate, 14
Basic plate mail, 15.
Full Plate, 16.
If you aren't strong enough, reduce the AC value of the armor by 1 pt per 2 pts of Str you are too weak to use it properly.
To gain the benefits of masterwork armor, increase Str req by 1.
To gain the benefits of magic armor, increase the Str req by +2 per plus. So, to gain the benefits of Full plate +5, you'd need a 27 Str. Otherwise, the bonus maxes out where your Str tops off at.
Mithril and leafweave reduce the Str Requirement by 2. Adamantine is base 19 str req, and grants increasing DR based on how much your Str surpasses the minimum wield req of 19. FOr every 2 pts of Str above 19, you gain additional DR 1/-.
How's that for a nice buff to Str's importance?
==Aelryinth
If you want to do a Character build comparison, it's quite easy.
Take the exact same character, and simply swap out Str and Dex. Recalculate bonuses and weapons accordingly.
Focus on the areas most affected.
Wpn TH/Damage over time
Missile TH/Dmg over time.
Initiative
AC
Saving Throws
Skill point bonuses
Everything else will remain largely the same.
The Str guy gets to pick two feats to sub for not having to take Weapon Finesse and Finesse Damage.
Assuming a standard load-out of +5 plate armor, +5 Prot/Nat AC, +1 luck/insight, we start with a 36 AC.
If we use 33 and 20 as the final stats, we're going to be, for a fighter, at base BAB 20 +11 Stat +5 Wpn +6 Wpn Train +2 Spec for +44 to hit, and +21/26/31 damage before Power Attack, which will be -6/+12 or -6/+18 (ignoring archetypes).
A 2h'er with a Greatsword will be doing 2-12 +49 dmg.
A Curveblader finesse dmg will be doing 1-10 +44.
The Curveblader will have +6 AC (all touch), +6 reflex save, +6 Init, and +7 TH with a bow.
A sword and shield guy will pick up +1 AC for using a Heavy Shield vs a buckler, and possibly another from Shield Focus.
Their damage difference will be the difference between a rapier or kukri vs a longsword or scimitar.
THe Finesse guy will have +4 AC (all touch), +6 reflex/init/dex skills/missile weapons, etc.
A TWF, they'll both likely be using finesse weapons. Damage will be identical if you get half dex for off hand.
Finesser will still have +6 Dex boosts advantages, and gives up nothing.
The 2 feats the Dex guy doesn't get had better be pretty good!
==Aelryinth
I'm conceptually against Guided weapons, too, but the monk is so MAD that it's hard to abuse it.
==Aelryinth
I think guided was published in their magazine for 3.5 not pathfinder
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What?
What is the most balanced approach to implementing this feat?
How can I improve the wording and structure?
Your feat could be more balanced with the following changes:
1) Cannot be used in conjunction with Power Attack.2) The damage is considered precision damage, which means anything that makes the target immune to critical hits is also exempt from this damage.
3) Allow only a x1.0 modifier to damage (like agile weapon).
With those weaknesses, I actually didn't need to impose any further penalties and went a step farther:
- Weapon Finesse applies to all weapons if you wish. It's not a feat.
- Your feat is now called Weapon Finesse and applies to all weapons you're proficient with.
- It has no further prerequisites. I don't think it's a good idea to only permit it for 19 dex PCs, I found this feat made a lot of rogues with 14 Dex or lower a lot more viable at low levels.
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I'm reading some replies and they're pretty funny. What people are overlooking is:
1) Dex to damage is already in the game, the Agile weapon enchant and Dervish Dance feat both allow it. And those exist in the game with hardly any penalties.
2) Dex to damage benefits the weakest classes in the game, rogues, TWF fighters, and monks. Dex builds are currently non-viable. I want them to be viable.
3) Games like D&D 4E have managed to have Dex to damage without any feat tax.
4) Empirical evidence but my campaign has featured it with no problems so far (level 6).
Not allowing power attack to be used with it reduces DPR substantially, so it's a tradeoff. And you can't add x1.5 damage, so it's not very beneficial with 2H weapons. You're losing a lot of damage.
Also, if you are a fighter using it, wow does it ever hurt if you're caught flatfooted, something that's overlooked because of the rogues Uncanny Dodge ability. And with low perception, they are caught quite a bit.
1) Agile is non-core and elective, and Dervish Dance comes with some killer restrictions on it (i.e. nothing in the off hand, limited to the scimitar). I.e. they realized that the massive Dex bonus to AC had to be counter-balanced by taking away something.
2) Dex to damage benefits weak classes, yes. It also highly benefits classes that are not weak at all, and that's the problem.
3) 4E has a completely difference balance paradigm then PF, and Dex to damage tended to benefit strikers, who were the damage dealing class. It also had considerably more restrictions on dex to AC, which is the real balancing factor. Unlike in PF, you can't wear heavy armor and get a +11 Dex bonus to AC in 4E.
4) Empirical is empirical. Wait a few levels and see what develops if you've got a dex melee. His AC is going to render him nigh unhittable, and his damage really isn't going to suffer at all.
As for being flat footed, that's why you've got a really good dex mod, and wear armor. Because, you know, your armor is JUST AS GOOD as the guy NOT relying on Dex. So, you aren't suffering any more then Joe Str Fighter there...you've got the same AC as him when flat footed, and you get flat footed less because your Init is higher. When you aren't, you've got a 5-6 pt advantage, over time.
==Aelryinth
The katana, scimitar, and the curveblade are all finessable. Nobody is going to call them low damage. Scimitar is actually your best one handed weapon at higher levels (among the non-exotics).By scimitar, I'm sure you mean rapier, since scimitars aren't finesse weapons, even with Dervish Dance.
Quite. And about that Katana; where is it a finesse weapon?
Dervish Dance allows you to use Dex to hit and damage with one hand, it's a finesse weapon by extension of the feat. Note that weapon finesse is a pre-req for the feat. So, the feat has TWO functions...making the scimitar finessable, and with it, using Dex for TH and damage. Restriction? Nothing in the off hand.
I may be confusing one of the samurai archetypes with some 3.5 OA stuff, where you could take a feat or class to make the katana finessable (particularly Iajitsu Masters or Crane samurai). Of special note is the 3.5 feat Graceful Strike, where you could make any one handed slashing weapon finessable.
==Aelryinth
Dervish Dance allows you to use Dex to hit and damage with one hand, it's a finesse weapon by extension of the feat. Note that weapon finesse is a pre-req for the feat. So, the feat has TWO functions...making the scimitar finessable, and with it, using Dex for TH and damage. Restriction? Nothing in the off hand.
I may be confusing one of the samurai archetypes with some 3.5 OA stuff, where you could take a feat or class to make the katana finessable (particularly Iajitsu Masters or Crane samurai). Of special note is the 3.5 feat Graceful Strike, where you could make any one handed slashing weapon finessable.
==Aelryinth
So what about dervish of dawn bards that get dervish dance for free, but not weapon finesse?
What about them? They are still restricted by the feat. I'm not sure what your questions is. Are you saying that because it's gained as a bonus feat, they aren't gaining Dex to hit and damage? Because they assuredly are.
==Aelryinth
What about them? They are still restricted by the feat. I'm not sure what your questions is. Are you saying that because it's gained as a bonus feat, they aren't gaining Dex to hit and damage? Because they assuredly are.
==Aelryinth
But, if they assuredly are, then that means that their DEX to hit comes from dervish dance, and not from weapon finesse.
Your assertion that DD changes a scimitar to a finessable weapon is incorrect. While true that DD requires Weapon Finesse as a prerequisite, it also makes DEX apply for both to hit and damage, and has otherwise no interactions with weapon finesse at all.
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Dervish Dance allows you to use Dex to hit and damage with one hand, it's a finesse weapon by extension of the feat. Note that weapon finesse is a pre-req for the feat. So, the feat has TWO functions...making the scimitar finessable, and with it, using Dex for TH and damage. Restriction? Nothing in the off hand.
A finesse weapon in all but name is still not a finesse weapon for interaction with other feats and abilities.
Dervish Dance allows you to use Dex to hit and damage with one hand, it's a finesse weapon by extension of the feat. Note that weapon finesse is a pre-req for the feat. So, the feat has TWO functions...making the scimitar finessable, and with it, using Dex for TH and damage. Restriction? Nothing in the off hand.A finesse weapon in all but name is still not a finesse weapon for interaction with other feats and abilities.
The point is that there is, in fact, a strong connection between Dervish Dance and Weapon Finesse. Which is, I suspect, what Aelryinth was getting at.