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So, something I do when I run the game is I give people the option to use the favored class bonus from any race and to place the ability modifiers of the race into any place they want because its about their background/class rather than their race. This means there are changeling witches, dwarf sorcerers, and elf barbarians, and gives more freedom as to what race/class combo you want. Just curious what other people think.
What no racism?
I could see a complaint about the flavor of each race. Mechanically I don't see any problems.
(Being able to play a non-human sorcerer without feeling silly would be nice.)
What no racism?
I could see a complaint about the flavor of each race. Mechanically I don't see any problems.(Being able to play a non-human sorcerer without feeling silly would be nice.)
The full rights for half-men groups would likely support my idea, yes. Halfling not half a man!
Yeah, the only thing I could see people not being into is the flavor of the race, but I find people who are drawn to that sort of thing nab +2 con or strength for their dwarf anyway and make their elves smarter. I push for creating backstory to support your stat array, so I don't feel like I really lost that..
The big bonus is definitely that you see much more variety in your groups, and people who really want to play one race don't feel pigeonholed into a role.
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It'll just make the characters a bit stronger than whatever generation method you use normally does. Make sure the adventures you're using are ready for that. If you're making it all up yourself then that's fine... if you're using pregenerated adventure paths, you may find the characters have an easier time than expected, as they have better stats.
How does it make people stronger? The groups I've had gravitate towards people using characters with a +2 to primary stat and -2 in a dump. How many dwarven sorcerers have you met? It also doesn't make anyone any more powerful than the race with the usual modifiers.
How does it make people stronger? The groups I've had gravitate towards people using characters with a +2 to primary stat and -2 in a dump. How many dwarven sorcerers have you met? It also doesn't make anyone any more powerful than the race with the usual modifiers.
Not all of us rollplay. Most of us will play the character concept we want regardless of the 'meta'. Allowing people to do what you suggest prevents the sucky-er builds that used to occur naturally and thus increases the power curve.
*sarcasm*
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Not all of us rollplay.
Ooh sick burn, I'm sure you really cut him to the quick with that one.
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You know, accusations of "rollplaying" and "power gaming" as well as accusations of "saying something is badwrongfun" are tossed around way too casually in this forum.
In the last few days I've seen things like:
Forum Member 1: I use skill checks/attack roll/whatever-relevant-roll to decide if the player succeeds.
Forum Member 2: YOU'RE JUST ANOTHER DIRTY ROLLPLAYER! YOU SCUM!
and...
Forum Member 1: Mechanically speaking, I don't think your build will be very effective.
Forum Member 2: STOP TELLING ME I'M HAVING BADWRONG FUN!
and, of course...
Forum Member 1: I dunno, I think class X would be a better choice.
Forum Member 2: FREAKING POWER GAMER! YOU'RE A DISGRACE TO THE HUMAN RACE!
I might have exaggerated just a bit. But you get my point.
How about checking if the other guy is actually doing any of that before pointing fingers and acting like someone burned your house, killed your family, kicked your dog and dishonored your clan?
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But what if I like calling other people names? Are you saying that I'm having BADWRONGFUN when I call people names?
I wouldn't like free-for-all races. When I make a character it is a balance between flavor and mechanical-not-suckiness. I often make character without a racial bonus in the primary ability score. Often that end up in unexpected strengths and weaknesses that give value to the character concept.
This change would sway the focus toward more min-maxing of the mechanics in an unneccesary way.
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This is an interesting chicken and egg situation.
You want to change the racial attribute modifiers so people can pick the race they want based on flavor, not mechanics, but the primary driving force between the flavor of the race are the mechanics. I mean, a huge part of what people think about Dwarves is due to their Constitution bonus and Charisma penalty. So, you're taking away part of the flavor so that people can make a choice based on flavor...?
Look, I'm not opposed to the idea or anything, it's just strange when you really think about it.
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"You mean I can put the -2 in my dump stat and place +2 in my two most important stats just like that!?"
I fail to see how that encourages roleplaying as opposed to rollplaying.
"You mean I can put the -2 in my dump stat and place +2 in my two most important stats just like that!?"
I fail to see how that encourages roleplaying as opposed to rollplaying.
Well, the logic is sound enough: With the freedom to choose, you don't choose a mechanical optimal race instead of your choice based on flavor.
As said before, I don't agree with it, but there is a logic behind.
This is an interesting chicken and egg situation.
You want to change the racial attribute modifiers so people can pick the race they want based on flavor, not mechanics, but the primary driving force between the flavor of the race are the mechanics. I mean, a huge part of what people think about Dwarves is due to their Constitution bonus and Charisma penalty. So, you're taking away part of the flavor so that people can make a choice based on flavor...?
Look, I'm not opposed to the idea or anything, it's just strange when you really think about it.
On the other hand, dwarves are also very dwarf-y because they have the slow and steady and hatred racial features. Their also short, sometimes gruff, and have beards. The fact they can't be good sorcerers or oracles because they take a hit to charisma is a nasty side effect.
Also people tend to gravitate towards races that already look strong or buff when they choose Martials from my experience. Its the people who want to be different than get punished for wanting an elf barbarian for instance. YMMV of course, but the latter is a fact.
Oddly enough the race that gains nothing is human. They didn't lose out on anything, but they are no longer the only choice that can do everything.
"You mean I can put the -2 in my dump stat and place +2 in my two most important stats just like that!?"
I fail to see how that encourages roleplaying as opposed to rollplaying.Well, the logic is sound enough: With the freedom to choose, you don't choose a mechanical optimal race instead of your choice based on flavor.
As said before, I don't agree with it, but there is a logic behind.
It makes every race optimal. It does encourage min maxing, but I'm okay with that because you can optimize and still roleplay just fine(see stormwind fallacy. I believe this argument is called). It also gives more control over the flavor of your character.
Just wanna say humans "could" benefit from this, at least from the point of view from the more mad classes. For example you could have a human with lawbringer aasimar stats to make an ideal paladin with a bonus feat to boot...crap i just remembered merfolk, and their triple threat combo.
Just wanna say humans "could" benefit from this, at least from the point of view from the more mad classes. For example you could have a human with lawbringer aasimar stats to make an ideal paladin with a bonus feat to boot...crap i just remembered merfolk, and their triple threat combo.
Except humans don't get +2 to two stats. They get a +2 to one. Just the same, a lawbringer assimar also has assimar features such as once per day continual flame(which is fantastic!) and a chance to get a bonus to saves against evil spells, a chance to get the true speaker trait... What makes an assimar an assimar is more than their stat array.
I said put the bonuses and penalties where they like. Not nab orc or merfolk stat array. If anything I think humans gain the least out of anyone. They usually have the best favored class and have a choice stat bonus to begin with.
@ the OP: That won't make them equal.
I allow the favored class bonuses from any race to be available for all as well, mostly because I have a ton of non-core races that are central and common in my homebrew world. Ditto for most race-based feats, traits, and spells. So long as it makes sense - no orcs taking Breadth of Experience, for example - I'm typically okay with it.
I leave the racial stat modifiers where they are though.
@ the OP: That won't make them equal.
No, not really. To take the extreme I would have to strip them of everything and turn them into blank slates, then possibly give them a small selection of choices that aren't flavorful but add small +1's. I just wanted to make them all able to take any class they want.
@ the OP: That won't make them equal.No, not really. To take the extreme I would have to strip them of everything and turn them into blank slates, then possibly give them a small selection of choices that aren't flavorful but add small +1's. I just wanted to make them all able to take any class they want.
Ok, I see. Why not allow them to give something up to be able to do that. Even in fantasy stories certain creature are better at certain things. I think that is partially why the game does it this way.
Why not allow them to give something up to be able to do that.
That's far more complicated than what I do. Racial traits, though not entirely balanced, are a very large variable and hard to measure even with the ARG's race builder. Inside of core there isn't much variety in stat arrays beyond +2 to two stats(one physical, one mental) and a -2 to another stat. Those stats aren't balanced with a racial traits, and are predetermined by fluff.
Allowing give and take would require trying to recreate the race builder and making it sophisticated and balanced. Worse, it hurts the flavor far more than it helps I believe. It would work in a situation that all races were very similar, or where you were constantly creating a variety of beings. In a situation where you want the races to be varied among each other but not within themselves, its best to keep racial traits contained with some sharing in between and only allow them to be used by another race in rare cases.
Even in fantasy stories certain creature are better at certain things. I think that is partially why the game does it this way.
They do, that's why I don't mess with racial traits. Racial traits define who you are. A dwarf is slow and steady, a lawbringer archon cast continual flame once per day, an elf is good with magic and long lived. The forced stat arrays however affect what class a player can choose. A -2 to a caster stat is murder for that caster. -2 wisdom is effectively a -4, relative to the +2 another race has. That race won't have clerics among players, nor many inquisitors.
I like having races with flavor, but negative modifiers takes away far more than it adds. Allowing you to decide where the stats go creates a larger variety of choice.
Huh, thought I'd get more commentary.
A friend's 'dm' has the adjustment for Sorcerers taking 'x' bloodline built in to his world flavor. Dwarves, fe, are able to function normally with Earth and Fire based bloodlines. I hate the world, the so-called dm and at least one player, but it is a workable solution.
Huh, thought I'd get more commentary.
Why? All you're doing is giving people better stat bonuses... its not a deep philosophical change, its a very simple mechanical change that will make most characters a bit stronger, and a few no different, depending on how the stat bonuses of their chosen race matched the optimum stats for their chosen class.
There's all of one paragraph of discussion. What more is there to say?
Huh, thought I'd get more commentary.Why? All you're doing is giving people better stat bonuses... its not a deep philosophical change, its a very simple mechanical change that will make most characters a bit stronger, and a few no different, depending on how the stat bonuses of their chosen race matched the optimum stats for their chosen class.
There's all of one paragraph of discussion. What more is there to say?
Yes, but then I asked how it makes someone stronger or how its better stat bonuses, or do you mean relative to someone playing the same race/class combo rather than every other possible race/class combo?
Edit: I guess I expected more. Oh well, not an exciting thing, but one I think is important. Mostly brought it up because I wanted to see if there was some sort of mass dislike of the idea or if there was something I'd missed.
Yes, but then I asked how it makes someone stronger or how its better stat bonuses, or do you mean relative to someone playing the same race/class combo rather than every other possible race/class combo?
And you were told: it puts two +2 bonuses in stats of your choice, and one -2 in a dump stat of your choice. With very few exceptions the core races do not do that perfectly for any given class, and by doing what you're doing every race gives you exactly the stat bonuses you're after to enhance your base performance in your class, and you pick the stat you care least about to give the penalty.
That said, I don't know why anyone had to explain why that makes stronger initial characters.
I wouldn't do it in my campaigns, personally, but I actually like the fact that races are not designed around the character, and that their existing strengths and weaknesses shape the characters initially. As a houserule, it's pretty benign.
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I'm a changeling witch. The fact that I don't have a 20 INT starting out doesn't bother me. Course, using the term, I'd say I'm more of a roleplayer than a rollplayer. Not only that, but I' a sea witch. A class that a online witch's handbook that I read said was the worst archetype.
I don't see that there is anything BAD about how you are letting everyone choose their bonus, but then on the other hand, I don't feel it's necessary.
Yeah, you don't see many human sorcs putting their +2 into strength. People tend towards things anyway. Elven bard doesn't sound that bad roleplay wise.
There isn't a roleplayer vs. rollplaying argument when you talk about this sort of thing. Gimping yourself purposefully doesn't make you a better roleplayer and putting +1's into what you need doesn't make you a rollplayer. That's stormwind fallacy.
Yeah, you don't see many human sorcs putting their +2 into strength. People tend towards things anyway. Elven bard doesn't sound that bad roleplay wise.
There isn't a roleplayer vs. rollplaying argument when you talk about this sort of thing. Gimping yourself purposefully doesn't make you a better roleplayer and putting +1's into what you need doesn't make you a rollplayer. That's stormwind fallacy.
Yeah, I once made a half-orc witch (yes, I very very much love the Pathfinder witch... LOL) of course I put her +2 into intelligence. But, had she had 3.5 half-orc stats... what was it +4 str, -2 int, -2 cha? Something like that... I still would have made the character. She just would have been a bit better at melee than your average witch, and would have a cool 16 intelligence instead of 18 or 20. No big deal IMO.
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Actually, gimping yourself sometimes kinda does make you better, not BECAUSE it's gimping you, but because you're doing what would be cool instead of what would be effective. It only becomes Stormwind when you say gimping yourself is the same as roleplaying and taking the most optimal path is the same as rollplaying.
To the people saying this enables min-maxing, yes it does, but it also reduces its impact on the fluff. It means that instead of changing your race from elf to human you just play an unusually dumb, clumsy elf. In some situations it's actually very helpful to roleplaying.
Lets not forget that min-maxed stats can also be very useful roleplaying enablers. Nothing says disappointment like making a "bad-ass wizard" who turns out to actually suck at magic because you tried to make him unique. This rule effectively makes race optimisation so obvious and simple that it becomes a non-issue, meaning whatever choice you make will be made because it's interesting.
Humans and half-humans will need more power to keep up with the others. You'll probably have to give them and extra +2 and a -2 (which is very nearly as good as an extra +2 for free).
Merfolk will be hilariously awesome.
I also suggest limiting characters to one mental bonus and one physical bonus. That will reduce the amount by which character power increases and it won't encourage specialisation so much.
Personally I'd instead houserule it as
-take any FCB
-if you don't like your racial bonus then change it to +2 to any stat.
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I personally don't like it. As I see it the races are fundamentally different from one another. That's what makes them races rather then ethnicities. For example having a halfling that's as strong as a world class olympic body builder doesn't really make any sense to me. They just don't have the same muscle mass.
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I LOVE building memorable characters who break their racial molds. That said, I typically do that within the rules.
Examples:
- Elven Ranger with 18 STR, a penchant for warhammers ... and not much else. "I speak three languages: Common, Elven, and Warhammer -- and I speak the last one best."
- Halfling Barbarian who has struggled her whole life to be as strong as possible, because she just wasn't as good at anything else.
- A refined half-orc gentleman (INT 16, CHA 16) who has disguised himself among the lower classes because he's ashamed of being both orcish royalty AND a bastard child.
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I play rpg with kids as one of my jobs and i have removed everything that made races different. Race is only a flavor choice.
It is not PF.
I Think for PF, the rule used by MrSin is mainly a boost to races with stats that used to be fixed and good racial stuff like dwarf.
Edit: spell casters Will look at goblins for +4 on a stat:)
The fact that no one has made an MLK reference itt is a travesty.