Ma-ma!
Well I do know the OP. I never set this up for my players before and wanted to see how they would handle it. It made for an amusing session and they were more wrapped up in this then the murders. The OP has only played a couple months. It made the session just long enough. You guys have given me some good ideas going forward depending on his actions.
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On the flip side, a goblin growing up in a human community has the same chance to be evil as a human growing up in a human community, particularly if said goblin is being raised by kind and loving people who aren't racist toward the poor creature. So by your logic (kill the goblin babies because they could be evil), you would have to kill all the human babies as well. Which is undeniably evil.
Could someone cite where these claims are found in Pathfinder cannon?
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Barghest: Evil Outsider, stolen by Lamashtu from Asmodeus.
Goblin: Spawned from the blood of humans when spilled by the Barghest.
Hunger: A gift from the Barghest deity Venklevor
Raiding: A gift from the Barghest deity Zarongel
Scavenging: A gift from the Barghest deity Zogmugot
Now, I've been selective about what I've quoted here, providing text that perhaps would lead one to believe that by nature, Goblins are evil. To be in some way fair, the book does mention "playing a non-evil goblin" and goes into detail about options on how you could do this. This shows that learning a new way is possible... at least as it relates to PC's, but none of the "redemption" situations ever refer to tribes or NPC's, but rather PC's.
It's always debatable as to whether "evil" is an actual inherited trait for creatures who aren't of fiendish background... which Goblins are... however distantly in a fashion... so that's a debate of its own. Anyway, whether or not they actually are inherently evil, it's quite obvious that the inherent and given traits of Goblins lead them to naturally be evil, because what they are racially good at is being evil.
PS: How do you lock a thread at Paizo.com in 2013? Send it to the Adventure Path forum. But seriously, the question asked has nothing to do with the AP, but rather some advice in a philosophical debate, not about the AP, but about killing young monsters.
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On the flip side, a goblin growing up in a human community has the same chance to be evil as a human growing up in a human community, particularly if said goblin is being raised by kind and loving people who aren't racist toward the poor creature. So by your logic (kill the goblin babies because they could be evil), you would have to kill all the human babies as well. Which is undeniably evil.Could someone cite where these claims are found in Pathfinder cannon?
Council of Thieves.
And that goblin didn't even have to be raised by humans.
And Champions of Purity points out that raising children of typically evil races into a better way of life is viable.
I wanted ideas to kill the babys, with trying to avoid PvP.
Talk to the paladin's player and work something out you're both comfortable with. That's the only way.
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Also, just because your race has Hatred as a feature doesn't mean that you are required to become a genocidal murderer.
But then the problem of having allegedly good-leaning races featuring weaponized racism as a racial trait is a debate explosion for another thread.
(for the record, Garl Glittergold was a @#$%ing monster)
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I just deleted my last post.
In summation:
1. Preventative maintenance cannot always be construed as evil.
2. Paladins are forced to follow a much stricter code of conduct, which other PC's don't have to.
3. The GM is final arbitrator of Good v Evil, and nothing that anyone on these forums says will eliminate the grey area of good v evil.
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1. Preventative maintenance cannot always be construed as evil.
Genocide and baby-murderin' can though.
It's too bad the paladin's player isn't here. Relevant to his interests.
This whole conversation just reminds me why I'm glad I don't use PC Alignment at my table.
So in an attempt to at least be constructive based on the original post, I'll just add this:
Given that my PC's don't use Alignment, I do expect those that play Paladins or similar classes to adhere to a Code of some sort.
IF this situation happened at my table (Player A wants to Save the children — probably based on a nature vs. nurture argument — and Player B believes ALL GOBLINS MUST DIE - usually based on a "They did X to my Y, and now will pay!" argument.) I would do this:
Every Player present that feels the need weighs in by explaining what their Character thinks is right. I'd probably go with everyone gets 5 min, then we'd have a round of 2 min rebuttals.
Then I would weigh in as GM/Director and explain that this is the perfect time for Player B's Character to grow not because of XP, but because of Experience. I would also explain that these goblin children are worth 0 XP at this point, and killing someone/something just because you think it's evil is also a great way to become Evil and have your PC become an NPC at my table.
You might ask, how does that work if there is no PC Alignment? I works like this
At this point I would let the group vote, if they felt it necessary, asking both parties to respect the outcome, even if they disagree.
So to the Original Poster, I'll put it simply and bluntly - this is an ancient Moral Trap:
As a GM who has been doing this for 10+ years, there is no way to kill the Goblin Babies in your scenario without coming off as an a** (in character and out) at this point.
However, if you had killed them on the spot without giving the paladin time to react in the first plass... it would still, at best, only make your character look like an a**. (No matter how well role-played.)
Seriously, it's the gorram Kobayashi Maru. And unless you work for Paizo, you're *probably* not going to be able to rig the system like Kirk did.
Just move on as a player AND character to a conflict in the game that actually matters and is fun. (Like laying a hurtdown on a Boss and getting some loot.)
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To side-step the whole philisophical discussion, let me share how I handled this at my table...
All of the PCs (six at the time) were good, and the party included a cleric of Sarenrae and a paladin of Iomedae.
When the PCs found the goblin nursery, there were six goblin babies in their "cribs"... which were actually wire dog cages lined with filthy straw. All of the six goblin babies buried themselves in the straw when they heard the door open, but since they only had a +3 on their Hide skill, the PCs saw them. After tossing them a little food, the babies all pounced on what was offered, and I described them as brutally fighting each other: hissing, growing, biting, and scratching like wild beasts.
The PCs had the same discussion that the OP's party had: The cleric and paladin suggested that they come back for the baby goblins later, bring them to Sandpoint, and see if Turandok Academy would be willing to take them in as orphans. The barbarian, ranger, and wizard all argued against this: that goblins were unpredictable murderous pyromaniacs by nature, and should be humanely destroyed. (The rogue didn't have much of an opinion.) After an hour of real-world back-and-forth, the party decided to take thte advice of the divine PCs, and came back for them later.
I figured that baby goblins would mature very quicky-- almost like puppies-- and that two-month-old goblin babies would probably be the equivalent of an 18-month-old human child in terms of general ability to grab, bite, squirm, and move quickly. The book says that goblins deliberately raise their young in terrible conditions "so as to toughen them up," and I figured that they had already been fairly "well-socialized" in goblin society.
When the PCs came back after clearing out the dungeon, they found the goblin babies fighting each other again. When the paladin opened up the cage and reached in to pick them up, all six of the babies attacked, clawing and biting the paladin, doing a fair amount of damage. (Having worked in an animal shelter when I was young, I'd seen this happen with feral cats vs. naive volunteers.) After removing them from the cage, all of the babies squirmed, struggled, clawed, and bit to get away from the humans-- except for the two that climed into the paladin's backpack and found the bag of rations, which they tore open, half devoured, and then fought each other for the scraps-- while in the paladin's backpack.
The paladin and other PCs attempted to restrain the baby goblins. I treated this as a grapple check vs. the goblin babies' Escape Artist skill (which was pretty high), and even though they were size Tiny, is was six-on-one, and three got away and ran back into the dungeon to hide. The rest continued to squirm and growl as the PCs attempted to swaddle them. Once swaddled, they calmed down... but fixed the PCs with a baleful gaze and grinned a smile with wicked-looking teeth.
After searching for a while, the PCs gave up looking for the three escaped babies. In Nettlewood, while heading back to the Lost Coast Road, the baby goblins started wailing and crying. Figuring that they were hungry, the PCs attempted to give them some food... and were savagely bitten again. They then attempted to escape, and two more made their Escape Artist checks and ran into the woods. The PCs didn't bother chasing them at all. The last one calmed down and grinned again. It looked at the paladin, grinning, and licked its lips.
The paladin then remarked that this had not been a very good idea. The barbarian said, "Told you so." The paladin decided that these goblin babies were far more capable than she had figured originally, and that there was no way the Academy would take in such a creature. They then let it go. The goblin stuck out its tongue and disappeared into the woods.
TL;DR: The goblin babies were far more capable than the PCs bargained for. The players thought the encounter was going to be a deep moral dilemma, while I played it as black comedy. The goblins won.
Hee hee!
Uh, I mean,
Ma-ma!
Gorbacz did, but he used a stealth bomber.This one?
Unless that plane is silent, Horten heard a Ho.
Our Paladin was absent for this little encounter, so I had to play the Lawful Good voice of reason as the Alchemist, Ranger and Monk all wanted to kill the children. They made fairly good arguments(killing them by our hands would be better than them starving to death in the cages, since we killed just about every other Goblin in this place). Between sessions now, the Rogue remembered we still had one Goblin tied up on the first level and could leave the kids with them.
Though the Paladin(arrived late as hell) heard about this after, and has become hellbent to bring the kids back to Sandpoint and train them to be Paladins. Honestly, this would work, as they're about to hit the transition between book 1 and 2, and that would be a great time to let him deal with the kids while the other PCs do their shtick.
The basic argument went:
Ranger: They're Goblins and therefore need to die! I hate Goblins and I need to kill them all!
Monk: So we leave them in cages and they starve to death?! How could we call ourselves "good" if we did that?!
Alchemist: You think an Alchemist Fire would kill them well enough?
Me: Just because they are born to evil families doesn't mean they will become evil themselves. We can help them along the path and bring them to the side of good!
Rogue(inflicted with Tetanus after a failed Fortitude Save): Ksssss.
Also, I love how this thread got so many posts in a two day period, and the argument is, as I anticipated, waning into Nature vs Nurture.
Hilarity
Haladir, that story is 100% win, and is probably now what I will do when My PCs get to this point of the adventure.
You are a paladin on an important mission. After defeating some trolls that were menacing the village, you find a dozen helpless baby trolls.
Do you (a) leave them to starve, (b) leave them in the care of strangers - if they survive, they will almost certainly grow up to be voracious monsters, (c) murder them all, or (d) retire from adventuring and devote your life to raising them yourself?
Wrong answer! You fall!
You are a paladin on an important mission. After defeating some trolls that were menacing the village, you find a dozen helpless baby trolls.
Do you (a) leave them to starve, (b) leave them in the care of strangers - if they survive, they will almost certainly grow up to be voracious monsters, (c) murder them all, or (d) retire from adventuring and devote your life to raising them yourself?
Wrong answer! You fall!
None of the above.
(e)Billy the Exterminator answer: Relocate them to a habitat where they can live in peace away from people that they might hurt.
So i would like your guys help on how would be a good way for me to kill the goblin babys without my gm saying im evil now and without having to fight the paliden one on one.
Not only is your character evil, but he's dastardly evil. Like, BBEG-evil. He's trying to manipulate everyone around him, namely his allies (amongst them a paladin, no less). I'd probably say that your character's alignment is neutral evil. I mean, he's trying to accomplish something terrible, but he's going about it safely. That means he's probably not chaotic, else he'd of just butchered the babes. That said, he's not adhering to the law--which is to say that the building of an orphanage implied that the paladin has pleaded a successful case to the town that the babes should be provided sanctuary. At this point, your character is actively working to subvert the lawful authority of the town--and not on moral grounds, neither--but because you have a personal interest in seeing those babes slain.
TL;DR - Eeeeeeeeeeeevil!
If goblin babies are played like Haladir has played them, then a humane death seems fitting. I'm quite impressed by his description. Honestly, that's how I imagine goblin children would behave. Still, plotting behind the other character's back as to commit premeditated murder is... well, evil ;)
The thing is, the PF setting has stated that it is possible a goblin raised away from his kind would grow up to be a decent creature. It's just that they're kept in cages and tormented. Haladir's example is of goblins already basically conditioned to be monsters, so it doesn't actually apply to the "born evil or not" argument.
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While I do appreciate a "morality play" type of session now and again, I completely abhor presenting the players of paladins with no-win situations. Yes, the goblin babies in my version of events had already been conditioned into goblin society, and were already dangerous monsters. That said, I gave the PCs (especially the paladin and cleric) extra XPs as a reward for the attempt at redeeming the creatures, and for taking pity on them.
I hold that goblins, orcs, kobolds, and other humanoids that are statted up with an Evil alignment are actually evil by nature, regardless of upbringing. That doesn't mean that there aren't a few exceptional individuals that aren't evil, but they're extremely rare cases that have exceptional stories.
And, simply having an evil alignment is never sufficient justification for a good creature to just up and kill it!
Ma-ma!!
Good and Evil need to mean something more than different team jerseys. Leave the genocide and infanticide to the bad guys.
Dismantling organic killdrones before they mature enough to actually start killing is not "infanticide". Also, if you have enough power for that, you should destroy their souls too, to spare them guaranteed torture and weaken hells.
The questions are:
(1)Can sapient races be hardwired to the point there is no practical difference between them and killer robots, so that by their very nature they will wage war on everyone else? In Golarion the answer is "Yes". See: bugbears and ogres, for starters. Note - "a practical difference" in TTRPG context means that PCs can actually rehabilitate such a creature within a particular game's confines, not that there is a theoretical possibility that some of these creatures can become non-evil somewhere off-screen.
(2)Are we dealing with such a race? Regarding Golarion goblins, the answer is tentative "No". While goblins ARE demonspawn created with the sole purpose of being a blight on the world, Lamashtu seemingly did not spare enough attention on crafting them, so they can stop being evil retards.
Regardless, questions ##1 and 2 should preferably be asked to GM, before you do anything drastic. However, if both answers are "Yes" - not only the only reasonable, but also the only moral decision is to proceed with maximally effective and thorough extermination of the race in question (again, accompanied by soul destruction, if you can) whenever possible. Any other option is not only criminally irresponsible regarding their future victims, but also ensures that more creatures will be born damned. If you don't like this logic in your setting... then perhaps the question #1 shouldn't be answered "Yes".
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Long rebuttal with citations forthcoming when I'm not busy, but for now FatR:
No.
Not only is what you're suggesting evil, it is evil of the absolute worst sort. Your suggestion that these races are organic drones with no capacity for change is false.
Freaking fiends have the capacity for change. This has been demonstrated in the setting.
You would take that capacity away.
Your suggestion that systematically destroying souls is an option is #%*!ing daemon talk. And they're the things angels team up with devils and demons to stop.
There is in fact a specific kind of daemon born out of people who would do this sort of thing.
If there is one unforgivable sin in Fantasyland, it's destroying souls.
If one finds themselves considering physical and spiritual genocide as an option, it's time to stop and reevaluate.
Long rebuttal with citations forthcoming when I'm not busy, but for now FatR:
No.
Not only is what you're suggesting evil, it is evil of the absolute worst sort. Your suggestion that these races are organic drones with no capacity for change is false.
Freaking fiends have the capacity for change. This has been demonstrated in the setting.
You would take that capacity away.
It is an objective in-setting fact that, say, ogre blood makes you a physicallly and mentally twisted sadistic degenerate. Similarly, it is an objective fact that bugbears get off on killing other sapient beings, and that's the whole sum of their nature, culture, and racial schtick. Theoretical capacity to defy this under super-special circumstances that happen one in in a million times when the stars are right and a creature in question is probably hit by some Goodifying beam is meaningless in practice, unless you have enough power to do whatever you want with their whole races, and not struggle tooth and nail to survive their onslaught.
Your suggestion that systematically destroying souls is an option is #%*!ing daemon talk. And they're the things angels team up with devils and demons to stop.
Actually you don't need to squint very hard to see daemons' stated goal of ending all life as admirable, given what sort of world Golarion (or an average Great Wheel-tied DnD setting in general) is. If existence of the universe is tied to existence of infinitely large torture camps, whose staff labors with much success on seeding planes with more creatures that are practically certain to go into those torture camps after death, then existence of the universe is pretty hard to defend from an ethical standpoint. Particularly as no salvation is forthcoming, and the end fate of all things is oblivion anyway (or apparently eternal repeat of the same struggle in stock DnD).
The main reason you still don't want to enlist in daemons' camp, is that in practice they are just another sort of torture camp-running afterlife parasites.
If there is one unforgivable sin in Fantasyland, it's destroying souls.
Can you provide a logical or ethical reason why destroying a soul that - as you can objectively verify - is bound for an afterlife of torture, with no better perspective than eventually becoming a torturer in turn, should be condemned? No, "it is a genre convention, stop thinking about it" doesn't count.
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You play Warhammer 40K, don't you. :P
Why not go the easier path? A variation of Soul Trap that traps their soul in a gem. The soul won't go to Hell and thus doesn't strengthen the infernal realms.
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It is an objective in-setting fact that, say, ogre blood makes you a physicallly and mentally twisted sadistic degenerate. Similarly, it is an objective fact that bugbears get off on killing other sapient beings, and that's the whole sum of their nature, culture, and racial schtick. Theoretical capacity to defy this under super-special circumstances that happen one in in a million times when the stars are right and a creature in question is probably hit by some Goodifying beam is meaningless in practice, unless you have enough power to do whatever you want with their whole races, and not struggle tooth and nail to survive their onslaught.
That struggle is more worthwhile than just giving up and acting like a g$*%#*n daemon.
And no, the nature of those beings is not set in stone. We could sit here all day and list the myriad ways hope can find a way to work, but more on that below.
Actually you don't need to squint very hard to see daemons' stated goal of ending all life as admirable
No, you just have to be a deluded nihilist.
given what sort of world Golarion (or an average Great Wheel-tied DnD setting in general) is. If existence of the universe is tied to existence of infinitely large torture camps, whose staff labors with much success on seeding planes with more creatures that are practically certain to go into those torture camps after death, then existence of the universe is pretty hard to defend from an ethical standpoint. Particularly as no salvation is forthcoming, and the end fate of all things is oblivion anyway (or apparently eternal repeat of the same struggle in stock DnD).
The main reason you still don't want to enlist in daemons' camp, is that in practice they are just another sort of torture camp-running afterlife parasites.
Wow.
Tangent101 is right. Warhammer 40k called. It wants its grimderp back.
That right there is some straight up b@~#+!#%. No, it is. Here's why:
As long as existence is a thing, as long as someone is, there is hope. There is the capacity for change.
You seemed to miss that before, so read the above sentence again.
Capacity for change.
Angels fall, fiends rise. It happens. Reincarnation is a regular thing in this setting, with souls getting chances to do things better or worse this time around.
And that tug of war between good and evil, law and chaos, plays out over the course of existence. The only constant is change. And hope.
Because no matter ho bad things get for the damned of hell and the crazed larvae of the Abyss, there is still the chance that things will one day get better.
Daemons seek to destroy that hope.
Yeah, Hell and the other lower planes are terrible places. That's why Good struggles against them. That's why redemption is a more desirable goal than destruction.
Yeah, it's a struggle. And there's suffering. And there's strfe.
Well guess what? That's life.
And life is worth living. Daemons are the ones that want everyone to just give up. Everyone else? They strive.
And they succeed.
The Great Beyond that is known is not a closed system. There are stranger vistas beyond their borders, both higher and lower, offering even more unknowns and questions to those souls that ascend or descend into them. And they make it there due to hope.
And even within the Great Beyond, there are those that find a better place and a better state of being within it. Some reincarnate. Some get worse before they get better. And some or stuck in place for eons where they are. And even then, there is the capacity for change and hope.
And I know I would damn well rather be than not. Never stop striving.
Can you provide a logical or ethical reason why destroying a soul that - as you can objectively verify - is bound for an afterlife of torture, with no better perspective than eventually becoming a torturer in turn, should be condemned? No, "it is a genre convention, stop thinking about it" doesn't count.
I believe I just did.
Haha. That last bit--awesome.
Actually, here's an interesting thought. If goblins are inherently evil... and there is a high-enough level druid available... then why not kill the goblin babies and cast Reincarnate on each one? In all likelihood the child will be brought back as a non-Goblin, and thus does not have the genetic disposition of mischievous evil.
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Oh man, wait til Pat Robertson gets wind of this thread. 'FLEE FROM EVIL'!
PS. Killing goblin babies is evil.
Only if you enjoy it. ;)
Only if you enjoy it. ;)
This thread title sounds like something that would be released from "Cheapass Games".
Only if you enjoy it. ;)This thread title sounds like something that would be released from "Cheapass Games".
Kind of reminds me of the actual RPG Kill Puppies For Satan.
But I digress.
I'm thinking that FatR is role-playing a daemon worshiper.
[awesomeness]
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They've got huge, sharp... er... They can leap about. Look at the bones!
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I don't care Mikaze says. Gloom Dragons are adorable.
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I'm reminded of one of my favorite lines from Angel.
ANGEL: Well, I guess I kinda worked it out. If there's no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters...then all that matters is what we do. 'Cause that's all there is. What we do. Now. Today. [...] All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because, I don't think people should suffer as they do. Because, if there's no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world.
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Goblins must mature pretty fast. Those guys will be adults in next to no time. When you the leadership feat tell the GM you want them as your followers.
Then give them names like Sir Mincemeat, Sir Dragonfodder and Lady Scabbardhead. Give them miniature ponies and small size armor and tell them they're paladins.
Give them quests, like wiping out the feral goblins in Brinestump or something or, even better, tell they have rescue ALL the goblin babies they can find. Then you get an orphan goblin army ... what's not to love there!?