Great Cleave is way cheaper and almost as good.
So you say not taking WF/WS is gimping the character, but suggest Great Cleave?
Oh, the irony...
Trade your bastard sword for a nodachi, take a lvl of ranger and get a wand of lead blades on a weapon cord. Then go crit fishing and see what you catch.
Great Cleave is way cheaper and almost as good.So you say not taking WF/WS is gimping the character, but suggest Great Cleave?
Oh, the irony...
If you want whirlwind but don't want to spend 5 feats to get, then heck yeah great cleave is a good idea.
Taking feats doesn't gimp your character, but not taking the feats that boost your core combat mechanic is.
Op wanted whirlwind. Great cleave is a way cheaper version of whirlwind.
Have you ever played a PC fighter?
If you want whirlwind but don't want to spend 5 feats to get, then heck yeah great cleave is a good idea.
(...)
Op wanted whirlwind. Great cleave is a way cheaper version of whirlwind.
Actually, both Whirlwind Attack and Cleave are probably bad ideas... Well, Cleave can be useful up to 6th level or so, then the OP can switch it for something better.
Taking feats doesn't gimp your character, but not taking the feats that boost your core combat mechanic is.
I agree. I never advised the OP to not take a useful feat. I just disagree with the idea that the feats you mentioned are absolutely necessary for Fighters.
Have you ever played a PC fighter?
Yes, many times in 3.X, and another one in a short campaign with my secondary group. I've also seen a bunch of different Fighters in different campaigns. And used many of them as NPCs as well... What's your point?
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) is better suited for the sword and board who wants to put his shield away occasionally. If going that route, getting into some shield feats is also a good idea.
Using a large Bastard Sword is not, taking extra negatives to hit just for a higher damage die that is achievable through spells is not worth it.
Whirlwind Attack is bad because it requires that you surround yourself with enemies to perform it, and you only get to make one attack against each of them, so unless you can guarantee at least one or two kills, you will be trapping yourself.
Furious Focus is a good feat, but it isn't that good until later levels, if you are going to make it to say, lvl 12, its fantastic by then because it nets +4 to your attack.
Do you plan on having access to flight? Magical Item that grants it? Best friends with a caster? If so, Death from Above coupled with the Weapon Focus tree, Power Attack, and Furious Focus will give you some pretty effective combat prowess. Take all the intimidating feats to go with it and you have a pretty boss character going. Also make sure he has a goatee: quintessential to the build.
For all those who missed it. OP said he is going with a great sword now. All this BS(bastard sword) talk is more or less irrelevant.
When was Bastard Sword talk ever relevant?
When was Bastard Sword talk ever relevant?
Before the nodachi was released...
So to stick in theme of the fighter I am building.
Starting with chainmail and a greatsword and eventually getting some plate mail.
Going down the WF/WS/GWF/GWS feat tree,Power Attack --> Furious Focus, and grabbing Cleave --> Great Cleave. Yes a lil' vanilla, but it fit the theme. The other feats I will pick up really depend on where, when and what we are doing.
Basically the group has 2 campaigns going the good guys and the bad guys.
This character is the Lawful Evil Fighter that follows Zon-Kuthon.
The goal of the bad guy group is to thwart the good guy group. And if we ever encounter the other group. The GM plays the group we aren't playing that night.
Seen several good and bad guy deaths already, and oh the faces of the players. LOL
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Gibbing your character doesn't make him more interesting. In fact you'll probably do the exact opposite. My druid could not take natural spell at 5 too, that doesn't make him more interesting.Who said anything about gimping your character? Who said anything about that making more the character more interesting??? I wasn't even talking about interesting characters! I was talking about interesting feats!
You can role play and have the coolest character ever, it doesn't make repeating "I full attack" time and time again any more entertaining.Can't you guys read? I never, even once, said the OP shouldn't take those feats. I even commented that they're pretty effective.
What I did say is that they're boring IMO, and completely unnecessary. Fighters don't need Weapon Focus/Specialization. They're an effective way to increase DPR, but they're far from necessary.
And Druids benefit a lot more from Natural Spell than Fighter do from Weapon Focus. Natural Spells give you a new ability that in turn gives you a bunch of options! Weapon Focus gives you a +1. You can't do anything that you couldn't do without it. And 95% of the time, it won't even make a difference.
Look at that! Someone actually gets my point!Weapon focus and greater weapon focus are fine and pretty good feats. However no fighter "Needs" the weapon focus tree. If the fighter do not take WF he would take other feats, furious focus, cornugon smash, step up, disruptive whatever.
Unless we are talking about very specific builds (the ones that really need to have the highest attack possible, like a felling smasher or a hamatula striker) then a fighter without weapon focus is hardly gimped.
More than one someone, actually. :p
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So to stick in theme of the fighter I am building.
Starting with chainmail and a greatsword and eventually getting some plate mail.Going down the WF/WS/GWF/GWS feat tree,Power Attack --> Furious Focus, and grabbing Cleave --> Great Cleave. Yes a lil' vanilla, but it fit the theme. The other feats I will pick up really depend on where, when and what we are doing.
Basically the group has 2 campaigns going the good guys and the bad guys.
This character is the Lawful Evil Fighter that follows Zon-Kuthon.
The goal of the bad guy group is to thwart the good guy group. And if we ever encounter the other group. The GM plays the group we aren't playing that night.Seen several good and bad guy deaths already, and oh the faces of the players. LOL
In a situation like that, straight up power is likely the way to go, then...as much as I prefer a flexible character, you need to be able to kill quickly and efficiently...and options aren't much of an issue. Don't forget Improved Initiative...you can't kill quickly if your initiative blows.
In a situation like that, straight up power is likely the way to go, then...as much as I prefer a flexible character, you need to be able to kill quickly and efficiently...and options aren't much of an issue. Don't forget Improved Initiative...you can't kill quickly if your initiative blows.So to stick in theme of the fighter I am building.
Starting with chainmail and a greatsword and eventually getting some plate mail.Going down the WF/WS/GWF/GWS feat tree,Power Attack --> Furious Focus, and grabbing Cleave --> Great Cleave. Yes a lil' vanilla, but it fit the theme. The other feats I will pick up really depend on where, when and what we are doing.
Basically the group has 2 campaigns going the good guys and the bad guys.
This character is the Lawful Evil Fighter that follows Zon-Kuthon.
The goal of the bad guy group is to thwart the good guy group. And if we ever encounter the other group. The GM plays the group we aren't playing that night.Seen several good and bad guy deaths already, and oh the faces of the players. LOL
Truth. I will pick that up at level one. Boy was it great to read your guys discussion though.
The melee character of the good guy group is a lot more flexible, but less of a killing machine. So we shall see how this all turns out, and what party wins.
Something that might be fun to role play, can keep up AC, and still remain fairly effective in fighting (not full geared towards dealing damage or combat maneuvars) is taking the Racial Heritage feat and picking Halfing. After that, use some of your combat feats for the halfling racial feats. Desparate swing and Surprise Strike can be really nice, especially if you invest ranks in Acrobatics.
In a Rise of the Runelords game, I am playing a Human fighter (TWF) currently doing this. He is duel-wielding shields and is... cowardly. Damage isn't amazing, but it is funny and the rest of the party is very geared towards dealing lots of damage. Your party's wizard will thank you for taking "Lucky Halfling" and rolling a fortitude save for him using your bonuses and other melees that start catching heat for dealing more damage than you will thank you for the Blundering Defense luck bonus to AC and CMD. If you fight a lot of huge+ monsters later in the campaign, you can always look into Risky Striker for more DPR.
This is just a fun suggestion that worked well for me and the party loved it for the roleplaying and help boosting AC for other melees.
I'd advise against Cleave. It doesn't have staying power beyond 6th level.
Cleave is good at low levels since it lets you move and make two attacks. It doesn't work if you're only ever facing single opponents, or ones that never clump up. But that move+two attacks thing can be real handy.
I usually take it in a fighter build, but I usually take it as a fighter bonus feat so if I no longer need it I can swap it out.
Cleave is good at low levels since it lets you move and make two attacks. It doesn't work if you're only ever facing single opponents, or ones that never clump up. But that move+two attacks thing can be real handy.
I usually take it in a fighter build, but I usually take it as a fighter bonus feat so if I no longer need it I can swap it out.
That was my suggestion a few posts ago.
(...) Well, Cleave can be useful up to 6th level or so, then the OP can switch it for something better.
I houserule Cleave to be more useful, but even then, Greater cleave is still too situational to actually matter...
The Weapon Focus - Spec - Grt Focus - Grt Spec are very very good to have for two reasons.
1. Your Weapon capstone ability at 20th level...you have to have picjed a weapon to get it.
2. Most importantly...using it in conjuction with Weapon training, power attack and Combat expertise...tou can get an ungodly Attack bonus that you can easlily bleed of using power attack and/or combat expertise depending on the circumstance and still have a great chance for you 2nd, 3rd, and maybe even 4th iterative attacks to hit. Combine that with improved crit is why Fighters can outpace Barbarians and Paladins in damage dealt...all day long
The Weapon Focus - Spec - Grt Focus - Grt Spec are very very good to have for two reasons.
1. Your Weapon capstone ability at 20th level...you have to have picjed a weapon to get it.
2. Most importantly...using it in conjuction with Weapon training, power attack and Combat expertise...tou can get an ungodly Attack bonus that you can easlily bleed of using power attack and/or combat expertise depending on the circumstance and still have a great chance for you 2nd, 3rd, and maybe even 4th iterative attacks to hit. Combine that with improved crit is why Fighters can outpace Barbarians and Paladins in damage dealt...all day long
Spot On