So I am building a Lawful Evil Human Fighter(no Archetype) that wears fullplate and wields a bastard sword.He does not have the bastard sword feat, so he MUST wield it two handed. Also I went with dual talented so at level 1 he only has 2 feats (class & level).
Oddly I am at a loss with what feats to pick. Any ideas?
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Weapon Focus and Power Attack. Weapon Focus because level 1 characters have trouble hitting, even with 18 Str. Power Attack for fighting anything that you can't one shot without Power Attack. Though there are other good options, you won't regret having these 2 feats as you level up.
Weapon Focus and Power Attack. Weapon Focus because level 1 characters have trouble hitting, even with 18 Str. Power Attack for fighting anything that you can't one shot without Power Attack. Though there are other good options, you won't regret having these 2 feats as you level up.
+1
Weapon focus chain into Specialization and their greaters are pretty solid choices for optimizing, especially if you already have a chosen weapon. Fighter is arguably the best class to choose dual talent human for.
Fighters can retrain feats, so changing a weapon focus is not impossible.
That said, give up your character concept and use a falchion like everybody else! What's wrong with you!
(Just kidding. Play what you want. You'll be happier.)
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Fighters can retrain feats, so changing a weapon focus is not impossible.
That said, give up your character concept and use a falchion like everybody else! What's wrong with you!
(Just kidding. Play what you want. You'll be happier.)
Excellent point. Weapon focus at lower levels is handy...but not so much at higher levels. It might be a good idea to use it while it's worthwhile, then swap it out.
Dodge
Mobility
Spring attack
Combat expertise
Whirlwind attack
Power attack
Step up
Stand still
Iron willAvoid weapon focus and spec
Wearing heavy armor means he can't use spring attack.
Wearing heavy armor means he can't use spring attack.Dodge
Mobility
Spring attack
Combat expertise
Whirlwind attack
Power attack
Step up
Stand still
Iron willAvoid weapon focus and spec
I don't see where it says I cant use Spring Attack if I am wearing Heavy Armor.
You can deftly move up to a foe, strike, and withdraw before he can react.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn.
Normal: You cannot move before and after an attack.
What is the draw of using a bastard sword without the proficiency feat for it? (Other than the name, I suppose.) Just use a greatsword. If you want the bastard sword, you really should take Exotic Weapon Proficiency.
One of your feats should be Power Attack, since it's great most of the time. Other than that, what do you want the character to do? Anyone can prescribe you the boring-but-great statistical boosts (Improved Initiative! Toughness! Iron Will! Weapon Specialization!), but what do you want to do? How does this character interact with the world?
Mechanically, for instance - using a shield is a far different feat list than fighting with a two-handed weapon. Which do you want to do?
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Wearing heavy armor means he can't use spring attack.Dodge
Mobility
Spring attack
Combat expertise
Whirlwind attack
Power attack
Step up
Stand still
Iron willAvoid weapon focus and spec
I don't see where it says I cant use Spring Attack if I am wearing Heavy Armor.
You can deftly move up to a foe, strike, and withdraw before he can react.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn.
Normal: You cannot move before and after an attack.
Must've been a 3.5 thing then, because I remember my 3.5 fighter not being able to wear heavy armor.
Just checked, it was. My bad.
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Wearing heavy armor means he can't use spring attack.Dodge
Mobility
Spring attack
Combat expertise
Whirlwind attack
Power attack
Step up
Stand still
Iron willAvoid weapon focus and spec
I don't see where it says I cant use Spring Attack if I am wearing Heavy Armor.
You can deftly move up to a foe, strike, and withdraw before he can react.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn.
Normal: You cannot move before and after an attack.
Must've been a 3.5 thing then, because I remember my 3.5 fighter not being able to wear heavy armor.
Just checked, it was. My bad.
OTOH, it's hard to get any use out of it with limited movement.
Weapon focus is like the feat tree for fighters. I would take any advice contrary to that with a grain of salt.
I am running with a greatsword now...might as well
Weapon focus is like the feat tree for fighters. I would take any advice contrary to that with a grain of salt.
Personaly, I hate this feat chain. It's effective, sure, but it's so freaking boring... And they add literally zero options to the Fighter repertoire (in fact, it kinda reduces your options, as you're now basically restricted to a single type of weapon).
Fighter have to go out of their way to get some cool (and useful) abilities, and Weapon Focus/Specialization only makes them even more likely to repeat "I stand still and full attack" over and over again.
I'm not against "numerical bonus" feats, but grabbing 4 of those is just to bland for my tastes...
/rant
Power Attack is a great feat, so much so that it's almost mandatory for any melee character. But it's really not necessary before 3rd~4th level. Before then, you're likely to one-shot anything anyway, and your to-hit is much more important.
It does however open some cool options:
Improved Sunder: is pretty good against humanoids, IMO, you don't have to destroy the enemies weapon/armor, just give them the "broken" condition so the enemy suffers some severe penalties. After you loot them, have your casting friends use the Mending cantrip. Sunder is maybe the one useful maneuver that doesn't nerf you because of prerequisites.
Cornugon Smash: Finally a feat that lets martials debuff their enemies without killing their action economy! Shaken is a decent debuff, and Intimidate checks are pretty easy, even with a penalty to Cha, as Fighter have it as a class skill and can grab Intimidating Prowess to become really scary!
Dazing Assault: This one comes late, at 11th level, but by Gorum's name! Is it powerful! You can easily make your target unable to do anything at all!
These are unrelated to PA, but I like them anyway...
Combat Reflexes: Because a single AoO is never enough! Make sure you have at least a +2 dex modifier though, so it can be really useful.
Lunge: Great feat for anyone, but it really excels if you have a reach weapon.
Iron Will: Boring feat, but Fighters really need this one. And they can afford the feat.
Weapon focus is like the feat tree for fighters. I would take any advice contrary to that with a grain of salt.Weapon focus doesn't let you do anything new. Sure as a pre req or if you have a low to hit chance, but a fighter starting with 16 str and using a decent weapon just doesn't need it.
Only if compared to a monk or a rogue.
Fighter needs 18 strength, an easy thing to do with a 20 or 15 point buy.
Plus 2 to hit and plus 4 to damage doesn't seem like a lot until t stacks with weapon training.
Fighters can do new things after they cover the basic tactic of 'hitting them with my sword'
I played the 'interesting' fighter before and had a blast until we reached level 6 and my CMB became useless against most of what we were fighting.
Always always get weapon focus tree. You are going to have to pick a weapon anyways with weapon training.
Weapon focus is like the feat tree for fighters. I would take any advice contrary to that with a grain of salt.Weapon focus doesn't let you do anything new. Sure as a pre req or if you have a low to hit chance, but a fighter starting with 16 str and using a decent weapon just doesn't need it.Only if compared to a monk or a rogue.
Fighter needs 18 strength, an easy thing to do with a 20 or 15 point buy.
Plus 2 to hit and plus 4 to damage doesn't seem like a lot until t stacks with weapon training.
Fighters can do new things after they cover the basic tactic of 'hitting them with my sword'
I played the 'interesting' fighter before and had a blast until we reached level 6 and my CMB became useless against most of what we were fighting.Always always get weapon focus tree. You are going to have to pick a weapon anyways with weapon training.
No one needs a 18 Str. A 16 can do just fine.
No Fighter needs Weapon Focus/Specialization. Weapon Training will cover it anyway.
Sure, those feats rise the Fighter's DPR, but there's more to combat than rolling to-hit and damage.
Improved Sunder: is pretty good against humanoids, IMO, you don't have to destroy the enemies weapon/armor, just give them the "broken" condition so the enemy suffers some severe penalties. After you loot them, have your casting friends use the Mending cantrio. Sunder is maybe the one useful maneuver that doesn't nerf you because of prerequisites.
Cornugon Smash: Finally a feat that lets martials debuff their enemies without killing their action economy! Shaken is a decent debuff, and Intimidate checks are pretty easy, even with a penalty to Cha, as Fighter have it as a class skill and can grab Intimidating Prowess to become really scary!
Dazing Assault: This one comes late, at 11th level, but by Gorum's name! Is it powerful! You can easily make your target unable to do anything at all!
These are unrelated to PA, but I like them anyway...
Combat Reflexes: Because a single AoO is never enough! Make sure you have at least a +2 dex modifier though, so it can be really useful....
Fighters get 21-22 feats. Plenty of room for all of that and weapon focus. The one thing the fighter has over other classes is ungodly amounts of bonuses to hit and damage. You have play that up if you want to feel special.
No one needs a 18 Str. A 16 can do just fine.
No Fighter needs Weapon Focus/Specialization. Weapon Training will cover it anyway.
Sure, those feats rise the Fighter's DPR, but there's more to combat than rolling to-hit and damage.
If you want to focus on those other aspects of combat your better off playing another class.
My personal experience showed me that I should focus on hitting things before branching out into areas that I will be inferior at.
Fighters get 21-22 feats. Plenty of room for all of that and weapon focus. The one thing the fighter has over other classes is ungodly amounts of bonuses to hit and damage. You have play that up if you want to feel special.
I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying it's rather boring IMO, and completely unnecessary.
Spending 4 of your 11 extra feats without getting anything new is just too bland for me. He could use those feats to grab Point-Blank Shot/Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim to make a decent switch-hitter (Even better if he chooses "Bows" for his second Weapon Training), maybe add Precise-Shot and Manyshot too.
I'd take Weapon Focus because it's a very common prerequisite, but that's it. One boring feat is good enough for me. I'm GMing a game right now, and I keep a few character builds with me in case we have an unexpected extra player. Among those builds, there is a a Fighter who only took feats that increase his numerical bonuses. His DPR is pretty awesome, higher than the Smiting Paladin, IIRC, but by all gods of Golarion, is he boring. I honestly can't see myself playing anything like that for a whole session, much less a whole campaign.
One other Fighter build, who used the feats I listed and a few archery feats too, is much more fun. He has great DPR, even if it's not higher than Mr.Pally with Smite Evil. Players have been more interested in playing him (or having him in the party) than Mr.Ultra DPR.
EDIT: Anyway, I already shared my opinion and gave my suggestions to the OP. I don't want to derail this thread, so I won't bother to discuss the merits/shortcomings of weapon focus/specialization any longer. It's now up to the OP to decide what feats he wants.
Weapon focus is like the feat tree for fighters. I would take any advice contrary to that with a grain of salt.Weapon focus doesn't let you do anything new. Sure as a pre req or if you have a low to hit chance, but a fighter starting with 16 str and using a decent weapon just doesn't need it.Only if compared to a monk or a rogue.
Fighter needs 18 strength, an easy thing to do with a 20 or 15 point buy.
Plus 2 to hit and plus 4 to damage doesn't seem like a lot until t stacks with weapon training.
Fighters can do new things after they cover the basic tactic of 'hitting them with my sword'
I played the 'interesting' fighter before and had a blast until we reached level 6 and my CMB became useless against most of what we were fighting.Always always get weapon focus tree. You are going to have to pick a weapon anyways with weapon training.
No one needs a 18 Str. A 16 can do just fine.
No Fighter needs Weapon Focus/Specialization. Weapon Training will cover it anyway.
Sure, those feats rise the Fighter's DPR, but there's more to combat than rolling to-hit and damage.
18 is the line where the damage from a 2 handed weapon optimizes. Doing 6 damage plus weapon dice per hit is a lot more efficient than only doing 4 damage per hit, especially at earlier levels. Throw in power attack and you are doing damage dice +9 on a successful hit. Sure, you can get away with only having a 16, hell, you could get away with a 14, but I wouldn't call it good advice to tell him he doesn't need an 18 STR.
You get 21 feats, if 4 of them can't be used to make you better at your job (which is to hit things) then what kind of optimizing advice are you giving?
That said, I also like the feats that utilize Intimidate. Antagonize, Intimidating Prowess, Cornugon Smash, and even other feats that help make those feats work better (as well as boon some other abilities.) I like playing fighters with a moderate INT and CHA (meaning not dumped) just for that reason. One could take Cosmopolitan and make sure you have a 12 INT and end up being just as good of a party face as a paladin or cavalier. Be the center of attention, and kick as much ass as possible. That is my ideal fighter.
I've done what you have suggested before and regretted it. Having a plus 4/4 vs a 6/8 is a terrible trade. Add in the fact you probably don't have inmprove critical either and you're extra hosed.
I swing my sword harder than the barbarian or the pally or the ranger. Is the only advantage you have as a fighter. Not taking that feat tree makes everyone but the monk and rogue better than you in every single way.
Did you even read my last post, MM?
I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying it's rather boring IMO, and completely unnecessary.
I never said the OP shouldn't get Str 18 and the whole weapon spec feat chain, all I said is that nothing of that is necessary. Then I shared my opinion and personal experience with Fighter builds.
My point is that there are more ways of building effective Fighters than grabbing +1s and +2s every time you can. That's all.
If the OP wants to grab those feats, he's free to do it. He can do whatever choices he wants for his character. He can grab a dozen different EWPs for all I care.
But he asked for suggestions and I gave mine.
EDIT: Whatever. I'll not discuss Weapon Focus/Specialization here any longer. This discussion doesn't really help the OP.
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Fighters get 21-22 feats. Plenty of room for all of that and weapon focus. The one thing the fighter has over other classes is ungodly amounts of bonuses to hit and damage. You have play that up if you want to feel special.I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying it's rather boring IMO, and completely unnecessary.
Spending 4 of your 11 extra feats without getting anything new is just too bland for me. He could use those feats to grab Point-Blank Shot/Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim to make a decent switch-hitter (Even better if he chooses "Bows" for his second Weapon Training), maybe add Precise-Shot and Manyshot too.
I'd take Weapon Focus because it's a very common prerequisite, but that's it. One boring feat is good enough for me. I'm GMing a game right now, and I keep a few character builds with me in case we have an unexpected extra player. Among those builds, there is a a Fighter who only took feats that increase his numerical bonuses. His DPR is pretty awesome, higher than the Smiting Paladin, IIRC, but by all gods of Golarion, is he boring. I honestly can't see myself playing anything like that for a whole session, much less a whole campaign.
One other Fighter build, who used the feats I least and a few archery feats too, is much more fun. He has great DPR, even if it's not higher than Mr.Pally with Smite Evil. Players have been more interested in playing him (or having him in the party) than Mr.Ultra DPR.
EDIT: Anyway, I already shared my opinion and gave my suggestions to the OP. I don't want to derail this thread, so I won't bother to discuss the merits/shortcomings of weapon focus/specialization any longer. It's now up to the OP to decide what feats he wants.
I agree. Go combat expertise...it's AC that doesn't keep up, not BAB...and that opens up combat options. It's a trade off...I mean, suddenly, you have to decide...do I trip? Disarm? Maybe it's time for a dirty trick...instead of "I swing. I swing again. I swing again..."
Because your feat selection and not the way you play your character is what makes it boring? Role vs Roll guys, you can be both an interesting character who hits harder than anyone else, 4 feats over the course of 20 levels and 21+ feats is not that bad to get your job done.
Just as an idea, incase you want to try something else some time:
Be shield focused. Use a shield as your main weapon, go with bull rush, and make sure to pick up improved tripping and felling smash.
When you smash someone with your shield (in a power attack), you get a trip and bull rush attempt on them. Lore warden can get you more bonuses on the maneuver bonus.
Not the greatest for damage, but hilarious. Just imagine some person running around hitting people with a shield, knocking them on their arse and into walls.
Did you even read my last post, MM?
I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying it's rather boring IMO, and completely unnecessary.I never said the OP shouldn't get Str 18 and the whole weapon spec feat chain, all I said is that nothing of that is necessary. Then I shared my opinion and personal experience with Fighter builds.
My point is that there are more ways of building effective Fighters than grabbing +1s and +2s every time you can. That's all.
If the OP wants to grab those feats, he's free to do it. He can do whatever choices he wants for his character. He can grab a dozen different EWPs for all I care.
But he asked for suggestions and I gave mine.
There is a difference between 'interesting' and effective. Personally I find find it very boring to play a character with CMB checks that fail and that hits worse than the other full BAB classes.
Plus with 22 feats as a human or 23 with focused study I find myself taking skill focus and weapon focus plus most of the other feats you talked about before level 12.
Because your feat selection and not the way you play your character is what makes it boring? Role vs Roll guys, you can be both an interesting character who hits harder than anyone else, 4 feats over the course of 20 levels and 21+ feats is not that bad to get your job done.
Look at that... Implying someone else is a "rollplayer" in the very first page of the thread. That's a new record.
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Weapon Focus and Power Attack. Weapon Focus because level 1 characters have trouble hitting, even with 18 Str. Power Attack for fighting anything that you can't one shot without Power Attack. Though there are other good options, you won't regret having these 2 feats as you level up.
Good simple answer to a good simple question from the OP.
At level 1, if the OP has full plate and a two-hander, Power Attack and Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword would be great picks.
Later on, OP, you can come back and wade through the other posts in this thread once they have all stopped arguing about things you didn't ask.
Give it about two or three weeks, they'll tire out sooner or later.
There is a difference between 'interesting' and effective. Personally I find find it very boring to play a character with CMB checks that fail and that hits worse than the other full BAB classes.
Plus with 22 feats as a human or 23 with focused study I find myself taking skill focus and weapon focus plus most of the other feats you talked about before level 12.
How exactly does that contradict anything I said?
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Is this for an AP, or open gaming? My current fighter is taking a nodachi and leveling to 5, then moving to living monolith for 5 levels to get swift action righteous might, then back for more fighter. There isn't an alignment requirement for monolith, and it will most likely be quite unique within your gaming circle.
The other way would be to dip alchemist for 4 levels, but you lose bab and it doesn't sound like you want to multiclass.
A little off topic of what you were first talking about, but might be worth looking in to, though it wouldn't likely work in an AP because of the RP requirements at level 1 and 5 of monolith.
Last fighter is about to retire, he was an alchemist/pole arm master and tripping everything is quite fun... being able to hit CMD's in the high 40's and crit in the 140ish range frustrates GM's :)
You guys aren't derailing the thread. I am learning a lot and figuring out how I am gonna make this plate wearing, greatsword wielding mofo a badarse. So please keep up the discussion.
Edit: he wont have full plat until a lil later on down the road. Since he cant afford it, but that is how I picture him in my head
How exactly does that contradict anything I said?There is a difference between 'interesting' and effective. Personally I find find it very boring to play a character with CMB checks that fail and that hits worse than the other full BAB classes.
Plus with 22 feats as a human or 23 with focused study I find myself taking skill focus and weapon focus plus most of the other feats you talked about before level 12.
Gibbing your character doesn't make him more interesting. In fact you'll probably do the exact opposite. My druid could not take natural spell at 5 too, that doesn't make him more interesting.
It alls depends what the Op wants.
He ca not do wrong with the standard Power attack/FUrious focus/WF/GWF/WS/GWS and improved critical. Plus Iron will and ligthing reflexes to improve his saves.
It is a pretty straightforward but effective build.
The Op have to say what other tactic would he like to have (besides hitting the enemies with a pointy stick)
WOuld he like to trip?, grapple? have a ranged option? something else?
Besides sticking them with the pointy end. What else would be a good thing to add to my repertoire? I was thinking Dodge into Whirlwind Attack feat tree. So this Fighter can charge into the midst of combat and cause as much devastation as plausible.
Gibbing your character doesn't make him more interesting. In fact you'll probably do the exact opposite. My druid could not take natural spell at 5 too, that doesn't make him more interesting.
Who said anything about gimping your character? Who said anything about that making more the character more interesting??? I wasn't even talking about interesting characters! I was talking about interesting feats!
You can role play and have the coolest character ever, it doesn't make repeating "I full attack" time and time again any more entertaining.Can't you guys read? I never, even once, said the OP shouldn't take those feats. I even commented that they're pretty effective.
What I did say is that they're boring IMO, and completely unnecessary. Fighters don't need Weapon Focus/Specialization. They're an effective way to increase DPR, but they're far from necessary.
And Druids benefit a lot more from Natural Spell than Fighter do from Weapon Focus. Natural Spells give you a new ability that in turn gives you a bunch of options! Weapon Focus gives you a +1. You can't do anything that you couldn't do without it. And 95% of the time, it won't even make a difference.
Weapon focus and greater weapon focus are fine and pretty good feats. However no fighter "Needs" the weapon focus tree. If the fighter do not take WF he would take other feats, furious focus, cornugon smash, step up, disruptive whatever.
Unless we are talking about very specific builds (the ones that really need to have the highest attack possible, like a felling smasher or a hamatula striker) then a fighter without weapon focus is hardly gimped.
Look at that! Someone actually gets my point!
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He do not need to go mithril breastplate thanks to armor training 1 at level 3.There is that, you will likely need to do a breastplate for 2 levels, then make it mithril for a level, then swap to full plate once armor training kicks in and you can afford it.
eehh
full plate are not available until more or least level 3, if we are talking about standard wealth by level 1.
He likely wouldn't benefit from the 1 more max dex than training gives him, but it is 2 better on armor check penalties than training 1... not necessary but I have found it useful.
It alls depends what the Op wants.
He ca not do wrong with the standard Power attack/FUrious focus/WF/GWF/WS/GWS and improved critical. Plus Iron will and ligthing reflexes to improve his saves.
It is a pretty straightforward but effective build.
The Op have to say what other tactic would he like to have (besides hitting the enemies with a pointy stick)
WOuld he like to trip?, grapple? have a ranged option? something else?
Besides sticking them with the pointy end. What else would be a good thing to add to my repertoire? I was thinking Dodge into Whirlwind Attack feat tree. So this Fighter can charge into the midst of combat and cause as much devastation as plausible.
Great Cleave is way cheaper and almost as good.
Besides sticking them with the pointy end. What else would be a good thing to add to my repertoire? I was thinking Dodge into Whirlwind Attack feat tree. So this Fighter can charge into the midst of combat and cause as much devastation as plausible.
Dodge is not very good, IMO. The +1 to AC is not worth a feat, and AC tends to become less relevant at higher level. Generally speaking,a bonus to attack rolls is worth more than a bonus to AC.
Whirlwind attack is decent, I guess, but it's prerequisites really hurt.
Assuming you have a decent Dex score, a few archery feats can be really useful to fight things that are too far from your Greatsword's pointy end.
I like Intimidating Prowess because it not only makes Cornugon Smash more useful, it also makes you much better at the only social skill in your list of class skills. Intimidate can be really useful with a little creativity.