Isn't "everyone's a bisexual in my fantasy land" just as bad in the opposite extreme as "nobody's bi/homosexual in my fantasy land"?Bigotry of this type also doesn't work well in a lot of fantasy settings. "I'm OK with elves sleeping with haflings, and dragons having it off with gnomes is fine, but two people of the same gender? NO!" It's even worse in Golarion. "No, I don't like women having sex with women. What do you mean, Sarenrae, Desna and Shelyn are involved? I, uh...crud."
Hence why I default NPC's to bisexual. It makes more sense for a game world like this. Obviously, it doesn't work that way in 1920's Call of Cthulhu - but they also don't have other races interacting with them, obvious magic and deities that get jiggy with each other (or at least I hope not...)
In a sense yes, but it's still more open-minded.
It's not symmetrical.
Making bisexuality "normal" in your world is unlikely to make anyone feel marginalised. You can't oppress the dominant majority.
A pair of Ulfen shield-brothers (or maidens) might be interesting. Class-wise, I'd go fighter or barbarian.That's it. I am adding a more prominent homosexual NPC couple or two to my game. A pair of middle-aged wizards or wizard and druid perhaps? We'll see.
Barbarian and wizard?
I am certain they should be males (and not elves which are all, in my not-so-humble-GM-opinion-made-intersetting-wide-decision biologically wired to be bisexual). Non-strictly heterosexual females are already represented by one of PCs, her lesbian lover and her bisexual friend (and occasional lover).
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The idea that any one sexuality might be described as "normal" whilst all others are "abnormal" seems odd to me. All sexualities are "normal" insofar as they are natural. The only distinction, really, is how large the demographics are. You can say heterosexuality is predominant, but calling it "normal" is just... kinda weird... or at least, I think so.
Yeah predominant is better - I knew normal was wrong (that's why I used scare quotes). Your phrasing is what I meant.
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Isn't "everyone's a bisexual in my fantasy land" just as bad in the opposite extreme as "nobody's bi/homosexual in my fantasy land"?Bigotry of this type also doesn't work well in a lot of fantasy settings. "I'm OK with elves sleeping with haflings, and dragons having it off with gnomes is fine, but two people of the same gender? NO!" It's even worse in Golarion. "No, I don't like women having sex with women. What do you mean, Sarenrae, Desna and Shelyn are involved? I, uh...crud."
Hence why I default NPC's to bisexual. It makes more sense for a game world like this. Obviously, it doesn't work that way in 1920's Call of Cthulhu - but they also don't have other races interacting with them, obvious magic and deities that get jiggy with each other (or at least I hope not...)
Possibly. But unless there's a reason not to, such as marriage or a statement that they aren't interested, I just borrow Paizo's party line and assume all NPC's are bi. Why would I assume someone isn't going to be interested in a same sex relationship? I can't really think of a good reason why they would object to a PC's advances just because of sex.
It's not as though I'm actively making the entire world one big gay party. The majority of people will be in 'normal' male/female gnome/half-orc relationships. I'm simply not automatically assuming someone that isn't in a relationship, and is available is straight without a reason. I suppose I could roll a percentile dice each time someone tries to chat someone up...
A pair of Ulfen shield-brothers (or maidens) might be interesting. Class-wise, I'd go fighter or barbarian.
Actually sounds more Spartan than Nordic in flavour; Sacred band of Thebes perhaps?
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Isn't thinking that elves should be bisexual wrong? I mean why?
Why would it be wrong? They are different species, with different biological, psychological and cultural traits. They don't have to conform to proportions of sexual orientation characteristic to human species.
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By leaving a vast majority of your non-player characters' sexuality undecided, you're not necessarily implying that your setting is populated by an overwhelming number of bisexuals. Many of those NPCs might be straight or gay, but there was no reason to codify that aspect of their character. The moment that a player character decides to romance them, however, their sexuality might become locked. If the NPC is male and a male PC pursues him, you can decide in that moment that the NPC is gay. He was always gay, it just wasn't relevant. The same goes for straight characters.
I mean, it's no different than how I handle shopkeepers and innkeepers. I stat out a couple interesting characters. Depending on the size of the village, town, or city, I might have only one NPC on hand. If there's three inns the players can visit, I inject that one NPC as the innkeep at whatever inn they choose to visit.
It's just easier that way. Reduces the number of NPCs I have to create.
The same principle can be applied to sexuality.
A pair of Ulfen shield-brothers (or maidens) might be interesting. Class-wise, I'd go fighter or barbarian.Actually sounds more Spartan than Nordic in flavour; Sacred band of Thebes perhaps?
Definitely what I was thinking, but I don't think there's a greek analogue in Golarion. Then again, I'm not too learned on the setting (I play homebrew settings, mostly). That's why I chose Ulfen. They're a warrior culture--close enough!
Definitely what I was thinking, but I don't think there's a greek analogue in Golarion. Then again, I'm not too learned on the setting (I play homebrew settings, mostly). That's why I chose Ulfen. They're a warrior culture--close enough!A pair of Ulfen shield-brothers (or maidens) might be interesting. Class-wise, I'd go fighter or barbarian.Actually sounds more Spartan than Nordic in flavour; Sacred band of Thebes perhaps?
I am not GMing Golarion anyway so it's irrelevant anyway :P
Yeah but there's warrior cultures, then there's warrior cultures that segregate the sexes as a practice for extended periods of time, which the Spartans did, or groups that were hand picked such as the Sacred Band.
This wasn't just about warrior culture either, as it had prevalence is wider academic pursuits.
You might find that Persian analogues also work, as would Afghan themes - perhaps Qadira or Osirion could yield something?
not so sure about vikings, but this link seems to have a bit on it:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/gayvik.asp
Caveat emptor though.
Thanks for the link, Shifty. I'm curious what the vikings thought of homosexuality. This will make for an excellent read.
Doesn't sound like they held a particularly flattering view to be honest.
I wouldn't really expect them to. Nonetheless, it's interesting! I've been considering running a Norse-analogue setting and I'd like it to feel authentic. This article will certainly help in that regard.
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Sounds good, hope it works out well! :)
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Isn't thinking that elves should be bisexual wrong? I mean why?Why would it be wrong? They are different species, with different biological, psychological and cultural traits. They don't have to conform to proportions of sexual orientation characteristic to human species.
It's putting a label. Why do a lot of people figure elves are bi?
I think you do have to take into consideration that "normal society" isn't ready for all of that, Andrew R. As much as saying that sentence left a really bad taste in my mouth, it's kind of a fact. Some things stay in the internet, your diary or in your mind for a reason. What Paizo does NOT need is a huge outcry over "sexual deviants" or some similar scandal from the puritan crowd.
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Thanks for the link, Shifty. I'm curious what the vikings thought of homosexuality. This will make for an excellent read.
Not an expert on this by any means, but I was reading about Norse seidhr (shamanism/magic) some time ago for a character I made...
Seidhr was almost entirely performed by women because of its associations with Freyja; seidhmenn were said to be breaking a serious taboo and were considered ergi. I believe ergi means something like 'unmanly'. It effectively implied them to be like women, which also carried connotations of homosexuality (in particular, being the submissive/receptive partner of homosexual intercourse). I guess you can find an analogue between this and the Grecian views where the older, dominant/penetrative partner was manly whereas the younger, submissive partner was taking a female role.
Interestingly Odin was a male practitioner of seidhr and I believe Loki derides him for it. But I think he breaks a lot of the rules in general. :)
</tangent>
From what I heard, being called a crossdresser was a worse insult for a viking than being called a homosexual.
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I think you do have to take into consideration that "normal society" isn't ready for all of that, Andrew R. As much as saying that sentence left a really bad taste in my mouth, it's kind of a fact. Some things stay in the internet, your diary or in your mind for a reason. What Paizo does NOT need is a huge outcry over "sexual deviants" or some similar scandal from the puritan crowd.
So it is ok to make them "non-people" to focus on just one group getting full acceptance? And to make the accusation that not including enough of this one select group makes you a bigot or encouraging bigotry? But the others that are "not normal" well, we are not worried about them. Just reeks of hypocricy to me
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So how many of you include master/slave bdsm couples?
It comes up in pretty much every single Pathfinder Society module involving a certain Paracountess...
But I wouldn't really have a problem with this in general. Some people are into kinky things. No big deal. However I sincerely doubt it would become relevant in any major way. Pretty much nobody in this thread wants sexual scenes in their games. There's a big difference between "I am attracted to the same gender" versus "I am interested in BDSM"...
"mother" and adult "baby" couples? Kissing cousins?
You're coming incredibly close to equating homosexuality with paedophilia and incest here. Please don't.
Are you all bigots for not giving every group enough air time?
The big difference is that there's 5-10% of the entire population that is non-heterosexual as opposed to the much lower number of people who are interested in BDSM/happen to be in a consensual relationship despite being somewhat distantly related.
I don't think you are aware of what Andrew meant with the Mother and Baby thing. It has nothing to do with underaged people.
I think you do have to take into consideration that "normal society" isn't ready for all of that, Andrew R. As much as saying that sentence left a really bad taste in my mouth, it's kind of a fact. Some things stay in the internet, your diary or in your mind for a reason. What Paizo does NOT need is a huge outcry over "sexual deviants" or some similar scandal from the puritan crowd.So it is ok to make them "non-people" to focus on just one group getting full acceptance? And to make the accusation that not including enough of this one select group makes you a bigot or encouraging bigotry? But the others that are "not normal" well, we are not worried about them. Just reeks of hypocrisy to me.
Society is hypocritical. Society is flawed. Humans are hypocritical and flawed by that same notion.
I do not advocate anarchy, but I do love it when I get chances to point out how much we fail as a sentient race.
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I don't think you are aware of what Andrew meant with the Mother and Baby thing. It has nothing to do with underaged people.
I'm certainly not. Please don't tell me.
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I realise he's referring to some kind of effectively master/slave BDSM relationship. But the implication of something more is still there, at least to me.
Steve, it's a kink of sorts...
There are other sort of roleplaying fetishes like that too, like horse/cat/dog and owner, teacher and student, etc. Whatever makes people happy, I guess.
*Shrug* Having hanged around the internet long enough, I stopped judging people by their kinks quite some time ago.
I do not advocate anarchy, but I do love it when I get chances to point out how much we fail as a sentient race.
Fail comparing to whom? Humans are the most successful sentient race we know. Humans are the worst sentient race we know.
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So how many of you include master/slave bdsm couples?It comes up in pretty much every single Pathfinder Society module involving a certain Paracountess...
But I wouldn't really have a problem with this in general. Some people are into kinky things. No big deal. However I sincerely doubt it would become relevant in any major way. Pretty much nobody in this thread wants sexual scenes in their games. There's a big difference between "I am attracted to the same gender" versus "I am interested in BDSM"...
"mother" and adult "baby" couples? Kissing cousins?You're coming incredibly close to equating homosexuality with paedophilia and incest here. Please don't.
Are you all bigots for not giving every group enough air time?The big difference is that there's 5-10% of the entire population that is non-heterosexual as opposed to the much lower number of people who are interested in BDSM/happen to be in a consensual relationship despite being somewhat distantly related.
You really think the numbers are so much lower than gays for other "non standard" sexualities?
What beyond YOUR opinion (desire to make your group something more important?) makes being gay SO different from other sexual lifestyles?
I mean what stands out to you more two girls holding hands or the leashed gimp?
So how many of you include master/slave bdsm couples? "mother" and adult "baby" couples? Kissing cousins? Are you all bigots for not giving every group enough air time?
Hmmm, my group currently plays APs so the GM runs the NPCs as written.
We are all straight guys but we are also all friends and family of people who are GLTBI - they are part of our world so why cant they be part of our fantasy world.
I don't think I could play a gay character mainly because I don't think I would be able to do the character justice. Playing a gay male character I would way too worried that I would fall into cliche and stereotype too relax and playing a Lesbian character would feel a little bit fantasy fulfillment and lot disrespectful.
I do play female characters on occasion, I do my best to be true and I model my characters on interesting women from fiction and history. My last female character being a cross between Glenn Close's character from Dangerous Liaisons and Coco Chanel. I tend to cut to the fireplace when it comes to the romantic descriptions...
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I do not advocate anarchy, but I do love it when I get chances to point out how much we fail as a sentient race.Fail comparing to whom? Humans are the most successful sentient race we know. Humans are the worst sentient race we know.
Fail comparing to the ideal human being.
You know, that well of endless philosophical debates?
That fleeting, non-existent being that undestands world peace?
Not only that, but would realize that we do not need to split between rich and poor, black or white, male or female, and other such things? But hey, those are apparently just pipe dreams and wishful thinking. We're a pathetic bunch of maggots, pretending to be something special while feeding off the planet and each other like the parasites that we are just because our brains grew bigger than those of other animals. We can't even get along with our own species, damn it!!
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You really think the numbers are so much lower than gays for other "non standard" sexualities?
What beyond YOUR opinion (desire to make your group something more important?) makes being gay SO different from other sexual lifestyles?
I mean what stands out to you more two girls holding hands or the leashed gimp?
A person's sexuality != a "sexual lifestyle".
One does not choose to be homosexual (or whatever other QUILTBAG flavour).
Also I don't have any data on me, but I believe the ratio of non-heterosexual people being approximately 5-10% of total population is reasonably well accepted. I wouldn't be shocked if there are equal numbers or even more of people interested in some level of BDSM (especially 'lighter' BDSM such as being tied up by their partner) but your extremist "sexual lifestyle" comment implies a much smaller subset of people (i.e., fetishists).
Also, generally speaking the person in BDSM gear would stand out to me purely because it's quite shocking to do anything related to that outside of the bedroom or a BDSM convention. Two girls holding hands would probably not even make me blink twice (I might smile a bit I guess?)
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I do not advocate anarchy, but I do love it when I get chances to point out how much we fail as a sentient race.Fail comparing to whom? Humans are the most successful sentient race we know. Humans are the worst sentient race we know.Fail comparing to the ideal human being.
You know, that well of endless philosophical debates?
That fleeting, non-existent being that undestands world peace?
Not only that, but would realize that we do not need to split between rich and poor, black or white, male or female, and other such things? But hey, those are apparently just pipe dreams and wishful thinking. We're a pathetic bunch of maggots, pretending to be something special while feeding off the planet and each other like the parasites that we are just because our brains grew bigger than those of other animals. We can't even get along with our own species, damn it!!
Dude you are a nihilist... Everything we have done we have done despite the universe trying to kill us.
humanity is amazing - the fact that as a species we strive to be better, we strive to know the universe and we have done it all by ourselves with out outside help is truly wonderful.
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I don't think I could play a gay character mainly because I don't think I would be able to do the character justice. Playing a gay male character I would way too worried that I would fall into cliche and stereotype too relax and playing a Lesbian character would feel a little bit fantasy fulfillment and lot disrespectful.
I do play female characters on occasion, I do my best to be true and I model my characters on interesting women from fiction and history. My last female character being a cross between Glenn Close's character from Dangerous Liaisons and Coco Chanel. I tend to cut to the fireplace when it comes to the romantic descriptions...
This is a little random, but I honestly think you would do a fine job at playing a gay or lesbian character! If you're worried you wouldn't do it justice, you're probably in the right frame of mind--i.e., not wanting to create a stereotype but rather a full-fleshed out character. That's great. That's honestly all anyone can ask of you. The only other thing is if someone (particularly a gay person) ever criticised what you were doing is to listen to that and take it into mind. Kind of like what you'd do if you played an African-inspired character and an African person commented on something you were doing. Etc.
I probably don't do the best job at depicting heterosexual people either... but I do try and that's what matters. :P
I do not advocate anarchy, but I do love it when I get chances to point out how much we fail as a sentient race.Fail comparing to whom? Humans are the most successful sentient race we know. Humans are the worst sentient race we know.Fail comparing to the ideal human being.
You know, that well of endless philosophical debates?
That fleeting, non-existent being that undestands world peace?
Not only that, but would realize that we do not need to split between rich and poor, black or white, male or female, and other such things? But hey, those are apparently just pipe dreams and wishful thinking. We're a pathetic bunch of maggots, pretending to be something special while feeding off the planet and each other like the parasites that we are just because our brains grew bigger than those of other animals. We can't even get along with our own species, damn it!!
Dude you are a nihilist... Everything we have done we have done despite the universe trying to kill us.
Humanity is amazing - the fact that as a species we strive to be better, we strive to know the universe and we have done it all by ourselves with out outside help is truly wonderful.
I prefer the word cynical. Some people have actually called me optimistic on better days.
And for all the complaining I do, I still manage see good in most of the people I meet and interact with.
I would have probably killed myself a few years back if I didn't though, what with my depression issues and all.
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I prefer the word cynical. Some people have actually called me optimistic on better days.
And for all the complaining I do, I still manage see good in most of the people I meet and interact with.
I would have probably killed myself a few years back if I didn't though, what with my depression issues and all.
Hey Icyshadow! I don't really know you, and this might seem a little rude, but you're awesome, don't forget it! I hope that you can get through whatever issues you're going through. :)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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For me, it doesn't really matter/based on audience.
Gamewise, I (normally) run with the material as presented. Homebrew, I give it the same thought I do about my characters being left handed. Straight as long as not related to the plot, right handed as long as not related to the plot.
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You really think the numbers are so much lower than gays for other "non standard" sexualities?
What beyond YOUR opinion (desire to make your group something more important?) makes being gay SO different from other sexual lifestyles?
I mean what stands out to you more two girls holding hands or the leashed gimp?A person's sexuality != a "sexual lifestyle".
One does not choose to be homosexual (or whatever other QUILTBAG flavour).
Also I don't have any data on me, but I believe the ratio of non-heterosexual people being approximately 5-10% of total population is reasonably well accepted. I wouldn't be shocked if there are equal numbers or even more of people interested in some level of BDSM (especially 'lighter' BDSM such as being tied up by their partner) but your extremist "sexual lifestyle" comment implies a much smaller subset of people (i.e., fetishists).
Also, generally speaking the person in BDSM gear would stand out to me purely because it's quite shocking to do anything related to that outside of the bedroom or a BDSM convention. Two girls holding hands would probably not even make me blink twice (I might smile a bit I guess?)
Does one choose to be a sub? does one choose to want to live a baby fetish? etc.... A relationship of dom/sub might be very obvious if you watch them interact even without leather or rubber involved. Close friends may be mistaken as gay
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Also the vast majority of those examples happen behind closed doors and those not directly involved don't know about it. Much like the details of anyone's sexual life. The same is true of course for a homosexual sex life, but not for his or her romantic one. As has been stated again and again in this thread, having homosexuality in one's game is not the same as having explicit sex in one's game. It's quite possible to meet a BDSM couple without knowing they're into BDSM. It's difficult to meet a homosexual couple without knowing they're homosexual - at least if you realize they're a couple.So how many of you include master/slave bdsm couples?It comes up in pretty much every single Pathfinder Society module involving a certain Paracountess...
But I wouldn't really have a problem with this in general. Some people are into kinky things. No big deal. However I sincerely doubt it would become relevant in any major way. Pretty much nobody in this thread wants sexual scenes in their games. There's a big difference between "I am attracted to the same gender" versus "I am interested in BDSM"...
"mother" and adult "baby" couples? Kissing cousins?You're coming incredibly close to equating homosexuality with paedophilia and incest here. Please don't.
Are you all bigots for not giving every group enough air time?The big difference is that there's 5-10% of the entire population that is non-heterosexual as opposed to the much lower number of people who are interested in BDSM/happen to be in a consensual relationship despite being somewhat distantly related.
And i have seen bdsm couples that have nothing to do with sex in many aspects of their daily life but one calling the other master and acting with slavish devotion to the glee of the dominate member of the couple can be jarring to people not used to it or repelled by it. a woman leading her man on a leash is not sexual and her treatment of him (as they prefer it) as a pet is simply who they are. But they are not the "chosen" group to be normalized
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Does one choose to be a sub? does one choose to want to live a baby fetish? etc.... A relationship of dom/sub might be very obvious if you watch them interact even without leather or rubber involved. Close friends may be mistaken as gay
Sexual fetishes are a little more complicated than "nature" versus "nurture". I'm no expert, but I think it's probably a mix with more emphasis on your experiences in life and your general personal identity than genetics. There are, for example, many people who consider themselves a "switch" I believe the term is, happy to take either role. A lot of the BDSM stuff is about trust and gaining power over another person/relinquishing your own power and responsibility.
This is hugely different to literally not being attracted to someone of a certain gender. A person who is into BDSM may not enjoy vanilla sex as much, but it's in a totally different ballpark to a lesbian having sex with a heterosexual man. To the lesbian there, something's missing. Something's not right. He feels too hard, too angular. The way he smells, the way he speaks, the things they do, are just not doing it for her. Try to imagine sleeping with a man! You just can't, can you? Or if you can, it's incredibly disgusting, right? That's what it's like. You just do not get any enjoyment out of it whatsoever. It's totally different to a sexual fetish, which is more of a 'preference' than anything.
EDIT: And just to clarify - I don't think that gay (or heterosexual!) sex is disgusting. So happy for everyone who enjoys that stuff.
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Anyone else remember when Pathfinder used to be about kicking in the door, slaying the monster, and getting the loots?
You mean never?
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Does one choose to be a sub? does one choose to want to live a baby fetish? etc.... A relationship of dom/sub might be very obvious if you watch them interact even without leather or rubber involved. Close friends may be mistaken as gaySexual fetishes are a little more complicated than "nature" versus "nurture". I'm no expert, but I think it's probably a mix with more emphasis on your experiences in life and your general personal identity than genetics. There are, for example, many people who consider themselves a "switch" I believe the term is, happy to take either role. A lot of the BDSM stuff is about trust and gaining power over another person/relinquishing your own power and responsibility.
This is hugely different to literally not being attracted to someone of a certain gender. A person who is into BDSM may not enjoy vanilla sex as much, but it's in a totally different ballpark to a lesbian having sex with a heterosexual man. To the lesbian there, something's missing. Something's not right. He feels too hard, too angular. The way he smells, the way he speaks, the things they do, are just not doing it for her. Try to imagine sleeping with a man! You just can't, can you? Or if you can, it's incredibly disgusting, right? That's what it's like. You just do not get any enjoyment out of it whatsoever. It's totally different to a sexual fetish, which is more of a 'preference' than anything.
EDIT: And just to clarify - I don't think that gay (or heterosexual!) sex is disgusting. So happy for everyone who enjoys that stuff.
To a "true sub" you not being fully dominating feels like something is missing and they cannot find you attractive in the way they desire. they could not imagine sleeping with some one so soft, possibly disgusted by the person. Not so different really. Why do you seem to need it TO be so different? What makes you think it is simply a "preference" and choice, not "this alone works for me because it does and i cannot help that?"
Ah right my bad I meant D&D. Pathfinder has been the Oprah Winfrey show for at least the last couple of years. ;pAnyone else remember when Pathfinder used to be about kicking in the door, slaying the monster, and getting the loots?You mean never?
(A)D&D stopped being about kicking in the door, slaying the monster and getting the loots when Comeliness was added to stats :P
EDIT: Was it Unearthed Arcana for 1st edition AD&D or earlier?
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The reason many people are put off my BDSM has nothing to do with sex. It has everything to do with the fact that in our romantic lives, most of us see one another as partners. There is no master or slave. The very idea that one person could be more valuable or important than the other is abhorrent to us. We see each other as equals. Dominance/subservience isn't a very good foundation for friendship, after all. Most couples are friends, first and foremost.
That said, I realize that BDSM is usually just a playful fantasy (and that's fine, so long as it is consenting, of course).
As to why it is underrepresented in gaming, I'd hazard it has something to do with the fact that it's not all that common, and the people that practice it aren't very vocal about it.
So yea, you're unlikely to see BDSM folks represented in RPGs.