The rules for swarms are fairly straight forward, I thought.
Swarm Subtype rules from the PRD
Fine and diminutive swarms are immune to weapon damage. Yes, one can make the distinction between attacks and damage. The fine/diminutive swarm isn't immune to the attack--swing at it all you want with your sword. The fine/diminutive swarm is immune to the damage from your sword so your swinging around does nothing.
All swarms are immune to any spell or effect that targets a single creature. Rays target a single creature. Therefore, all swarms are immune to rays.
The rules linked above for swarms describe quite clearly what happens when you attack a swarm with a splash weapon.
The doing damage to a swarm with a torch or a magical weapon with an elemental enchantment is a 3.5 holdover thing, I think. I'm sure a GM would house rule it in for pity's sake if a party ventured into a dungeon and didn't carry not one splash weapon or some area effect spells all while playing the Worlds Smallest Violin. But, there's no explicit rule in Pathfinder that I know of for such a thing.
A ray spell doesn't target a creature though.
A ray spell most certainly does target a creature.
You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon
The key words are "as if". The ray isn't a ranged weapon, but for the sake of targeting, you aim a ray like you would aim a ranged weapon--that is to say, you target a creature with it.
You make a ranged touch attack, and if that weapon attack hits, then the spell takes effect. A ray is not a spell, its a weapon. You can apply weapon feats to it. It doesn't seem that cut and dry to me.
While it is true that rays count as weapons for spells and effects that affect weapons, this does not mean that they are weapons--more specifically, they aren't manufactured weapons. They're first and foremost a spell and according to the rules for swarms:
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate)
The rule even states a specific spell named disintegrate which just happens to be a ray effect spell. Ray effect spells target specific numbers of creatures. Ray of frost targets a creature. Scorching ray targets more than one but it's still a specific, finite amount.
Burning hands, however, is a cone and affects a non-specific number of creatures within its area. Lightning bolt is a line-effect spell and affects a non-specific number of creatures that were stupid enough to line up. Those are spells that are effective against swarms.
If it helps, think of rays as laser pointers or Star Trek phasers. They're narrow and focused and they hit just one target.
James Jacobs seems think you can hit swarms with rays:
And JJ is free to make that ruling in his games. I would disagree with it being upheld by RAW, however. Especially since the rule book gives the example of a ray spell and says it doesn't work.
As for the rest of your post, you came here to the Rules forum. You got a RAW answer.
Ansel is correct. All spells are spells. Swarms are immune to spells that target a creature. Your making a ranged touch attack against said creatures touch AC when you cast a Ray so of course it targets a creature. THUS....swarms are immune to rays.
I don't really understand what you're actually asking about, setzer.
Do you want to know if weapons can damage fine/diminutive swarms or do you want to know if rays can damage fine/diminutive swarms?
Ansel is correct.
ACID ARROW
School conjuration (creation) [acid]; Level sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (rhubarb leaf and an adder's stomach), F (a dart)
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect one arrow of acid
Duration 1 round + 1 round per three levels
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
An arrow of acid springs from your hand and speeds to its target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The arrow deals 2d4 points of acid damage with no splash damage. For every three caster levels you possess, the acid, unless neutralized, lasts for another round (to a maximum of 6 additional rounds at 18th level), dealing another 2d4 points of damage in each round.
SCORCHING RAY
School evocation [fire]; Level sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect one or more rays
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
You blast your enemies with a searing beam of fire. You may fire one ray, plus one additional ray for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of three rays at 11th level). Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 4d6 points of fire damage. The rays may be fired at the same or different targets, but all rays must be aimed at targets within 30 feet of each other and fired simultaneously.
Cast a ray spell like ray of frost:
A ray of freezing air and ice projects from your pointing finger. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to deal damage to a target. The ray deals 1d3 points of cold damage.
Can you affect more than one target with it? No. You "deal damage to a target." A target. One.
Is a ray an effect? Sure. It says right in the spell's statblock that it is an effect. Is ray of frost a spell? You bet it is. It's a spell.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures
Therefore, a swarm is immune to ray of frost because it is a spell that creates an effect that targets a creature.
Repeat this argument with every ray effect spell.
I will grant you that it is a very common house rule to allow either all ray spells or some ray spells (subject to GM fiat) to affect swarms. But as written, you aim a ray at a swarm and you toast 5 or 6 mosquitos that happened to be in the way of the beam and that's it. The same thing would happen if you swung your sword or mace into the swarm. You'd swat a few but that's it. The other thousand are unaffected.
This is why swarms are a common cause of death among unprepared adventurers. Carry alchemist's fire. It's cheap insurance from becoming spider food.
Setzer, what are you actually arguing for? Do you want rays to cause damage to fine/diminutive swarms?
The Swarm Subtype specifically calls out disintegrate as unusable against swarms. Disintegrate is a ray, just like Scorching Ray. They are both almost exactly the same, except that scorching ray has more rays. Both do not, as you seem to point out, actually state they target a victim. They both just say they hit their targets. Same exact wording. Yet, disintegrate is still listed as not working. Therefore, I propose that scorching ray doesn't work either, since killing five+ out of 1,500 creatures is negligible, as is disintegrating one of the 1,500 creatures is.
So no, scorching ray does not work on swarms. You are wrong.
The spell effect and the ranged touch attack are not separate things.
The ranged touch attack is just describing the mechanism by which the spell functions.
You make a X with Y.
Ex:
You make a melee attack with a sword
You make a ranged attack with a bow
You make a ranged touch attack with a scorching ray
back to the question though. you can indeed hit and damage a part of the swarm with a weapon/spell whatever.
so you killed 1 out of 10,000. the other 9999 are still gonna nom you. it isn't so much the attack doesn't affect the creature, just that it does not hinder the swarm, and so for the swarm, it has no effect. I guess if you kept track of the thousands...
I think you've been given the answer to your rules question.
As a note, James Jacobs doesn't answer rules questions anymore.
Can you attack a swarm with a ray attack?So, if you can attack a swarm with a weapon, I'd argue that you can attack a swarm with a ray. The rules say swarms are immune to weapon DAMAGE not to weapon ATTACKS... can this distinction be made? If not, then it would seem that not only can you not attack a swarm with a ray, but you can't attack a swarm with a weapon either...
Yet, it seems like you are supposedly able to attack swarms with torches or with magic weapons that have elemental damage added and the swarm should be affected by that...
What about attacking a swarm with a splash weapon? Its a targeted attack, but the effect is not the attack, the effect is again "delivered" by the the attack...
Right?
Can you attack with weapon (ray/spell/stick/bow)? Yes.
Will it have an effect? No.Just like sapping a skeleton because it is weaker to bludgeoning.
Swarms are thousands upon thousands (or hundreds depending on size)
if You kill / injure 1 or 2, it will not stop the swarm.
a Splash weapon attacks many at once, since they are all packed in, so it is the preferred method of attacking swarms. Same with spells.
Ray of frost/scorching ray: up to 4 targets, so no real effect.
Flaming sphere, burning hands, breath weapon, alchemical splash weapons, lightning bolts affect enough to be useful.
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I think you've been given the answers to your rules question.I disagree... all focus has been put on the idea that swarms are immune to something, but not enough focus has been given to the fact that the mechanic by which that assessment is made is whether a spell or effect has a target or not.
You are free to house rule it as you wish when you run a game for your players at your table. There's an entire forum dedicated to discussing that.
A swarm is a collection of Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creatures that acts as a single creature. A swarm has the characteristics of its type, except as noted here. A swarm has a single pool of Hit Dice and hit points, a single initiative modifier, a single speed, and a single Armor Class. A swarm makes saving throws as a single creature. A single swarm occupies a square (if it is made up of nonflying creatures) or a cube (of flying creatures) 10 feet on a side, but its reach is 0 feet, like its component creatures. In order to attack, it moves into an opponent’s space, which provokes an attack of opportunity. A swarm can occupy the same space as a creature of any size, since it crawls all over its prey. A swarm can move through squares occupied by enemies and vice versa without impediment, although the swarm provokes an attack of opportunity if it does so. A swarm can move through cracks or holes large enough for its component creatures.
A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures or 1,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Fine creatures consists of 10,000 creatures, whether they are flying or not. Swarms of nonflying creatures include many more creatures than could normally fit in a 10-foot square based on their normal space, because creatures in a swarm are packed tightly together and generally crawl over each other and their prey when moving or attacking. Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. The area occupied by a large swarm is completely shapeable, though the swarm usually remains in contiguous squares.
Traits: A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernible anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking. A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage. Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or less causes it to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Swarms are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage. Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple an opponent.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.
Swarms made up of Diminutive or Fine creatures are susceptible to high winds, such as those created by a gust of wind spell. For purposes of determining the effects of wind on a swarm, treat the swarm as a creature of the same size as its constituent creatures. A swarm rendered unconscious by means of nonlethal damage becomes disorganized and dispersed, and does not reform until its hit points exceed its nonlethal damage.
Swarm Attack: creatures with the swarm subtype don’t make standard melee attacks. Instead, they deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed. Swarm attacks are not subject to a miss chance for concealment or cover. A swarm’s stat block has “swarm” in the Melee entries, with no attack bonus given.
The amount of damage a swarm deals is based on its Hit Dice, as shown on Table: Swarm Damage by Size.
A swarm’s attacks are nonmagical, unless the swarm’s description states otherwise. Damage reduction sufficient to reduce a swarm attack’s damage to 0, being incorporeal, or other Special Abilities usually give a creature immunity (or at least resistance) to damage from a swarm. Some swarms also have acid, blood drain, poison, or other special attacks in addition to normal damage.
Swarms do not threaten creatures, and do not make attacks of opportunity with their swarm attack. However, they distract foes whose squares they occupy, as described below.
Swarms possess the distraction ability. Spellcasting or concentrating on spells within the area of a swarm requires a caster level check (DC 20 + spell level). Using skills that involve patience and concentration requires a DC 20 Will save.
editted for full block of swarm from PRD
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Cast a ray spell like ray of frost:
A ray of freezing air and ice projects from your pointing finger. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to deal damage to a target. The ray deals 1d3 points of cold damage.Can you affect more than one target with it? No. You "deal damage to a target." A target. One.
Is a ray an effect? Sure. It says right in the spell's statblock that it is an effect. Is ray of frost a spell? You bet it is. It's a spell.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creaturesTherefore, a swarm is immune to ray of frost because it is a spell that creates an effect that targets a creature.
Repeat this argument with every ray effect spell.
I will grant you that it is a very common house rule to allow either all ray spells or some ray spells (subject to GM fiat) to affect swarms. But as written, you aim a ray at a swarm and you toast 5 or 6 mosquitos that happened to be in the way of the beam and that's it. The same thing would happen if you swung your sword or mace into the swarm. You'd swat a few but that's it. The other thousand are unaffected.
This is why swarms are a common cause of death among unprepared adventurers. Carry alchemist's fire. It's cheap insurance from becoming spider food.
Every time I read it, what I see is that the effect doesn't target anything... the ranged touch targets, and that is separate from the spell effect itself. The attack roll targets, and the spell has an effect, separate things.
It seems to me that at the very least, the effect only targets a creature if you indeed target a creature. It doesn't even sound like a house rule to me that if you don't actually target a creature with the ray, that the effect (on that casting at the very least) did not target any number of creatures. I'd say based on that, that it seems very RAW to say that if you...
It's a targeted spell. It requires a roll to hit. A target. Sorry if you don't like it. *shrug*
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Can you attack a swarm with a ray attack?So, if you can attack a swarm with a weapon, I'd argue that you can attack a swarm with a ray. The rules say swarms are immune to weapon DAMAGE not to weapon ATTACKS... can this distinction be made? If not, then it would seem that not only can you not attack a swarm with a ray, but you can't attack a swarm with a weapon either...
Yet, it seems like you are supposedly able to attack swarms with torches or with magic weapons that have elemental damage added and the swarm should be affected by that...
What about attacking a swarm with a splash weapon? Its a targeted attack, but the effect is not the attack, the effect is again "delivered" by the the attack...
Right?
Can you attack with weapon (ray/spell/stick/bow)? Yes.
Will it have an effect? No.
Just like sapping a skeleton because it is weaker to bludgeoning.Swarms are thousands upon thousands (or hundreds depending on size)
if You kill / injure 1 or 2, it will not stop the swarm.a Splash weapon attacks many at once, since they are all packed in, so it is the preferred method of attacking swarms. Same with spells.
Ray of frost/scorching ray: up to 4 targets, so no real effect.
Flaming sphere, burning hands, breath weapon, alchemical splash weapons, lightning bolts affect enough to be useful.There is a repeating assertion in the arguments here that you would kill "1" or "2" "of the" creatures in the swarm... I know that is "fluff" in the argument, but still that is violating the rules right there. Mechanically, the swarm is not multiple creatures, it is one creature. If you can attack it (the swarm) any effect is done to the swarm, not to its "individual members" because mechanically there are no individual members.
So, if you can attack it, its not immune to the attack part of the effect... so the attack must be separate from the rest of the effect, not part of it. If you stipulate that you can attack the swarm, but are...
You really love complicating things, don't you?
A swarm is not a single creature. It is treated as a single creature. The individual creatures that make up a swarm are susceptible to ray spells. The swarm...is not.
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Yes, they are. Fire off a ray without a target. Go for it. Tell me what happens.Except that rays are specifically NOT targeted spells, as evidenced in the magic section of the rules.
*snip*It's a targeted spell. It requires a roll to hit. A target. Sorry if you don't like it. *shrug*
I don't have to, the rules do that:
"As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something."
Have you not noticed the line up in the top of every spell that either says Effect or Target? See how no ray spells have Target in there?
Also, to your other post, a swarm being made up of multiple creatures is entirely fluff. Mechanically, it is one creature. It has one stat block, moves as one, occupies space as one, and (most importantly) has AC as one.
Well, enjoy your hoping. You'll fail an awful lot...but have fun!
Some older threads on the topic:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2k8h0?Swarm-subtype-traits-and-Splash-spells
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mkak?Splash-Weapons-versus-Swarms
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Well, enjoy your hoping. You'll fail an awful lot...but have fun!Yes, they are. Fire off a ray without a target. Go for it. Tell me what happens.Except that rays are specifically NOT targeted spells, as evidenced in the magic section of the rules.
*snip*It's a targeted spell. It requires a roll to hit. A target. Sorry if you don't like it. *shrug*
I don't have to, the rules do that:
"As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something."
Have you not noticed the line up in the top of every spell that either says Effect or Target? See how no ray spells have Target in there?
Also, to your other post, a swarm being made up of multiple creatures is entirely fluff. Mechanically, it is one creature. It has one stat block, moves as one, occupies space as one, and (most importantly) has AC as one.
The point is, you don't require a target to shoot a ray... you can just shoot it. Based on that, the spell doesn't require a specific number of creatures to target.
This is the argument, and I still don't see it refuted:
A spell that produces a ray doesn't have a Target, it has an Effect.
A spell that produces a ray can be used without a target, so it doesn't require a set number of creatures to target to use.
You can attack a swarm with a weapon.
A ray is a weapon.
The elemental damage caused by the spell is not weapon damage.
Therefore a swarm can be damaged by the elemental damage of a ray spell.
I'm not trying to house rule... I just really don't see the gap in the logic above.
You don't need a target to shoot an arrow, either. And? An arrow is a weapon. And? You CANNOT attack a swarm with a weapon...and get anything out of it....but a ray spell is still a spell...one that requires a target to be of any use.
You're arguing semantics...which is utterly ridiculous...and will get you nowhere. The point is, killing off one...or ten...members of a swarm at a time does no appreciable damage to the swarm, so it does not work. If you can't understand that basic point, semantics is an exercise in futility.
Feel free to be futile, but you've had it explained to you multiple times. I'm done.
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The point is, you don't require a target to shoot a ray... you can just shoot it. Based on that, the spell doesn't require a specific number of creatures to target.
Except you do need a target. Whether the target is the ground, the air, an object, or a creature you are firing it at a target. There are a specific number of rays that can be aimed at a specific number of targets by targeting their touch AC.
There is no rules issue here. The issue is entirely on your end.
A spell that produces a ray doesn't have a Target, it has an Effect.
Again, incorrect. The target is whatever you aim it at.
A spell that produces a ray can be used without a target, so it doesn't require a set number of creatures to target to use.
WRONG. You must pick one or more targets (depending on the number of rays) to fire the ray.
You can attack a swarm with a weapon.
Correct.
A ray is a weapon.
Incorrect. A ray is treated as a weapon for the purpose of effects that affect weapons.
It is not a weapon in itself.
The elemental damage caused by the spell is not weapon damage.
Correct.
Therefore a swarm can be damaged by the elemental damage of a ray spell.
Incorrect.
I'm not trying to house rule... I just really don't see the gap in the logic above.
Look harder.
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@Ansel_Krulwich
One thing you said is NOT correct by RAW though, and my wording was incorrect on that front as well... you do not aim a ray "as if" it is a weapon... a ray IS a weapon. Ranged touch attacks are weapons, and you can apply feats such as Weapon Focus to them. That is actually the entire argument for if rays can affect swarms... if the touch attack is the spell effect, then no, they can't... but a touch attack is not the spell, its the attack roll for a weapon.Ray spells do not have a "Target" parameter, they only have an "Effect". The spell doesn't target anything, the attack roll for making a ranged touch attack is what targets.
Disintegrate has extra text in it that many rays do not. It specifies that "only one target may be affected per casting." That is found in the effect section for the spell, a line about the effect only being to a single creature. Most rays only damage a single creature not because the spell effect says so, but because when you make an attack with a weapon, you can only attack one creature with it.
Look at the text for acid arrow... it has an "Effect" but no "Target". You make a ranged touch attack, which is a weapon attack, not a spell, and if you hit, the spell effect takes place. The spell effect does not indicate a number of creatures. Seems to me like acid arrow would affect a swarm just fine.
Disintegrate has that specification because it can affect an area and not only a target, so without it people would try to disintegrate all target in a area. But any targeted attack, like a ray, target 1 creature.
The ray is the effect of the spell, but you aim it at something. Even when firing into the dark you must target a specific square and you automatically miss everything that isn't in that square, even if you are firing down a 5' wide alley.
Rays aside, then, what of attacking a swarm with an magic weapon with an elemental effect? The swarm can be attacked by the weapon and its AC overcome. The weapon damage doesn't do anything, but is the magical effect "weapon damage"?
No. The magical effect is a--magical effect. Swarms are immune to effects.
It is a common house rule to allow the magical effects of an enchanted weapon to affect a swarm--it's even one that I would allow if I felt my players needed it because they got caught unprepared. But it is not one that is supported by RAW.
The same question applies to splash weapons. Can you hit the swarm with a splash weapon? The splash damage from the splash weapon seems clearly to be AoE, but the initial hit part not.
Splash weapons vs. swarms has a special rule just for it which is why it "just works". Actually, the rules for swarms make splash weapons super effective.
A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons
The rules for the swarm subtype are quite clear on this. You have your answers. I recognize that you don't like those answers... But not liking them doesn't make those answers wrong.
only spellcasters with an AoE spell can affect swarms at all, leaving many parties without a way to combat them period
I knew you'd agree with me eventually. Pretty much, yeah. Along with splash weapons as explicitly allowed in the swarm subtype rules. Remember, specific rules trump general rules.
This is why swarms are deadly to low level and unprepared adventurers.