Goblin Squad Member
|
Given the location, I think that Ogres, Half-Ogres, Goblins, Hobgoblins, Bugbears, Kobolds, a variety of Fey both benign and malignant, Tieflings, Half-Fiends, Aasimar and maybe even Half-Dragons (Green, Black, Silver, maybe Red, Bronze/Brass and Gold at a stretch) as 'native' races to the region.
'Imported' could be anything, really, but I'm drawing a blank here.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Along this line, are we going to get the options for sub-races? Like Gold Dwarves vs Shield Dwarves vs Dark Dwarves (Duergar)? Personally my character from way back in D&D was a Forest Gnome, while extremely rare they aren't anymore or less special than the other gnomes and don't have the level modifier like the Deep Gnome.I think it won't be necessary for GW to make the differences. Waayyy back in Ultima Online there was a large guild on Catskills (I played on a different realm) that dressed as Orcs and raided the city of Trinsic. There were about 50 or so (more of less) and they could kill most of the guards eventually and would make your day miserable....but they stayed in character and fought until they were beaten back, or occasionally they killed everyone and left.
So, get a group of like minded adventurers and set yourselves up any way you like!
lol! I remember "orc masks". Thanks Hardin for bringing that memory back.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I used to read Goblins, but I gave up a little while back. The gaming parody is kinda weak, honestly, and has been for a while now. It's not really life through goblins' eyes if the goblins act like hobbits.
The problem I have with "redeemed monsters" is that you're ignoring what the race normally is. Goblins are, in the game, of a murderous and cowardly culture. You can't just say your character magically turned out like a little angel. If that made sense, everybody would do it. Plenty of people still do.
The trick to playing a monstrous character is remembering that they're a monster. Even if they want to be good, they're still gonna have monster habits.
I once played a goblin rogue. He wanted to be just like a human, but he still hated elves, tried to eat rats, and refused to bathe. If I play a hobgoblin, he'll still be manipulative and self-serving by habit. If I play a kobold, he'll still act like either Grima Wormtongue or Scrappy Doo, depending on who he's talking to. If a character completely breaks away from the monstrous stereotype, you need to explain why.
This isn't to say I can't understand the occasional brainy goblin, though I still think they should inherit at least a few goblinoid quirks--otherwise, why not just play a halfling? I just think that such creatures should be...well, occasional.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I used to read Goblins, but I gave up a little while back. The gaming parody is kinda weak, honestly, and has been for a while now. It's not really life through goblins' eyes if the goblins act like hobbits.
The problem I have with "redeemed monsters" is that you're ignoring what the race normally is. Goblins are, in the game, of a murderous and cowardly culture. You can't just say your character magically turned out like a little angel. If that made sense, everybody would do it. Plenty of people still do.
This is exactly the case. In mmoprgs the players always have characters that undergo GROWTH (primarily outer (in games and most films these days) and in the better stories, inner (easier to do in books?); often films fail because they merely show the outer gimmicks of eg the superhero; in fact one reason I think the "origins" stories of these films are usually the most rewarding eg spiderman, batman 1, 2 , 3 et al.).
Comparatively, a MONSTER has a set nature: A bit like an animal that is selectively bred to be aggressive and fight. Wolf cubs are a close natural example as compared to domesticated/tame dogs though a monster I imagine would be another order of magnitude more aggressive and all the rest of it?
=
My proposal is a different set of GOALS for MONSTERS, if they ever become playable. More antagonistic and more COMPLEMENTARY to player characters: IE they're like a more interactive mob that can organise and do intelligent things to CHALLENGE players. Eg a Goblin Escalation involving players coordinating AI Goblin mobs more effectively eg as "chieftains". So they fit within the PvE game as opposed to the Settlement PvP game.
Overall that's my impression of retaining the nature of the monster characters and being playable and fitting within the game.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My all-time favorite character that I've played in a TT game was Grimm, Goblin Archmage. At least, that's what he called himself because he could conjure up a ball of fire and everyone knows that only an archmage could do that. His alignment was a firm Chaotic/Stupid (GM made me change C/N to C/S on the character sheet after the first game) and although he was brilliant he didn't have a lick of common sense. Oh, and he absolutely adored fire; more than one PC was burned on more than one occasion. He also had a penchant for stopping to eat his victims, sometimes at inappropriate times (like the middle of combat).
I don't have any particular issue with people playing a 'redeemed monster', PCs make up a fractional percentage of the overall population in any given area, so there are bound to be weirdos in every race.
More antagonistic and more COMPLEMENTARY to player characters: IE they're like a more interactive mob that can organise and do intelligent things to CHALLENGE players. Eg a Goblin Escalation involving players coordinating AI Goblin mobs more effectively eg as "chieftains".
I read this instead of the actual quote... strangely fitting too....
More antagonistic and more COMPLEMENTARY to player characters: IE they're like a more interactive mob that can organise and do intelligent things to CHALLENGE players. Eg a Goon Escalation involving players coordinating Goon mobs more effectively eg as "chieftains".
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
More antagonistic and more COMPLEMENTARY to player characters: IE they're like a more interactive mob that can organise and do intelligent things to CHALLENGE players. Eg a Goon Escalation involving players coordinating Goon mobs more effectively eg as "chieftains".
It's true there are always issues to consider. I'll leave that problem alone for now. But the wider idea I'm thinking about with mmorpgs, is the idea of creating a virtual world and inhabited by agents with different goals and different experiences possible all interacting - exploits severely dampen that possibility naturally, but it's one reason I'm interested in seeing 3D mobs doing more than what AI usually does with them.
I mean there are possibilities to sandbox a particular option to reduce the problems of exploits and game-breaking behaviors. It's a question of whether or not it's a high enough priority? Maybe Goblins are a borderline case that could be PCs or Monsters? But certainly other types of mobs might lean a lot closer to Monsters.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I am opposed to Humans only for a major reason...... I am required to RP a human IRL, why would I choose to do so in a MMO???
They have a place, but it is funner (to me atleast) to do something I can't IRL.
Who is requiring you to RP a Human IRL? Personally, I RP a half Alien, nobody can prove I'm not so I'm doing a good job of RPing it.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Oh, trust me, I'd leap into a game that offered something other than Elves/Dwarves/Gnomes as the standard races, but nobody seems to be willing to take the plunge to make a 'monstrous' race available other than "THAT WHICH CAN NOT BE NAMED!" (namely Everquest and WoW .... who are two of the biggest commercial successes in the industry .... go figure?)
Whelp, there go my dreams of playing a kitsune in Pathfinder Online. :/
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Personally, I think the best way to handle this kind of thing would be to look at how the Pathfinder Society regulates non-traditional races for organized play.
You have your basic races, and then there are special "boon" sheets you can aquire from your Society rep that can give you a specific character boost in one way or another, and at many event (Think Gen-Con) many of these boons were "You may start a character, or convert a level 1 character into X race!" The races vary every year what ones they have available and these are not the only way to earn these.
On that premise, make these unique character races become available through participation in WHATEVER ongoing community interest events that the users will attend and contribute to. Much of the time for TT games, these are done organized at Conventions, but since this is an electronic title, you can easily host big world events (Think holidays, and MAJOR update festivals) where the PCs can participate to either earn a similar permanent boon, or enter a lottery system for just such a thing. It doesn't have to be complicated really, any time you run into a friendly monstrous race NPC, this would give the GW team an opportunity to introduce a contextually appropriate opportunity to award the PC's with a chance to get this rare feature.
Ex. A troupe of gypsy Tengu is traveling through one settlement or another and requires some kind of significant PC assistance, whereby you either acquire a Tengu Egg, that allows you to start a new PC with that race, or some ritual to permanently alter your race. Success of this objective will likely be large scale to solve, involving dozens if not more players working co-operativley to contribute towards their chance at the lottery.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
EQ did an interesting job of letting the evil races stay evil, at least as far as their home towns. In the middle of the original ogre village of Oggok there was a stew pot with the top half of a dwarf hanging over it. His legs were presumably dissolved in the stew. The dark elf city was chock-full of undead servants, and low level dark elves spent a lot of time tormenting the NPC halfling village in Nektulos Forest.
In EQ2 you could play a brooding anti-hero troll who defected to the forces of good, but you could also keep playing an evil, froglok-stomping bully troll with nothing but contempt for paladins and their ilk.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Creating a town full of undead players, goblin players ect other monstrous races sounds too wowish to me and would create clear factions. Maybe vampires can be good but are they and will they be accepted by what alignments if any? Can goblins become as good smiths as dwarfs ever???!!! I for one am glad the game is made applying the core rulebook, challenge ratings etc. It's a carefully designed world and some implementations of npc and pc races in an mmo setting just doesn't feel right to me...
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Just to be clear, I'm in no way polemic about adding or not adding the additional races in the OP. I'm happy with x1 race = humans, given all the other range of interactions PFO is attempting.
But I like to look at the assumption that all playable avatars = playable characters that follow the same progress system. What about Monsters that just add to the environment for other players, with some other system eg maybe collecting resources for NPC settlements? And so on.
Again, as "Carbon D. Metric" mentions there are appropriate "permissions" the devs could look into and time-specific usage and so on for these sorts of inclusions if they are not +Race to existing Races that all use the skill-training system, factions system etc.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I only want vampires to exist as PCs later on. I don't think the current graphics will be able to sustain constant sparkling.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My problem with monstrous races is that they are...monstrous. The multitudes of unseen workers and other NPCs that will invisibly populate Golarion (and any PCs that RP) would recoil in fear and hatred at any drow, part demon/devil, dragon-skinned, aberation/were/undead templated, (etc), character. The monstrous PC would, by the very superstitions of the people, be blamed for every misdeed in the recent past, present, and near future. If that character did not constantly assert itself as being dangerous beyond threat from the "normal people", the masses would end up rising up to destroy it.
Unless we are redesigning Golarion to be so cosmopolitan that race/alignment/history is irrelevant.
These conflicts are the story of Golarion, the details and history of it are what should dictate the behaviour and reactions of it's denizens; without which Pathfinder would just be YAFMMO.
I do understand the argument that goblin PCs (and/or other races as relevant) could create and/or live in and develop their own "settlements". I have no qualms with this as long as there are ways to insure race and alignment are not disregarded to the point of absurdity. However, I think this would require much more development on the part of GW than is available at this point...maybe they could just consider how to design the system to allow for the possibility later....
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To add a counterpoint in favor of goblin PCs down the road, there are some settlements that allow goblins to live there. If you read the Thornkeep book, there is a goblin tribe living in the town and they are tolerated by the Baron. Granted, the Baron is a werewolf and too lazy to do anything about a group that isn't a direct threat to him, but no one in town knows that. The fact that Thornkeep is the starter "outlaw" town, it seems likely that there is a precedence for goblins that control themselves enough to get by in the worst kinds of settlements.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
To add a counterpoint in favor of goblin PCs down the road, there are some settlements that allow goblins to live there. If you read the Thornkeep book, there is a goblin tribe living in the town and they are tolerated by the Baron. Granted, the Baron is a werewolf and too lazy to do anything about a group that isn't a direct threat to him, but no one in town knows that. The fact that Thornkeep is the starter "outlaw" town, it seems likely that there is a precedence for goblins that control themselves enough to get by in the worst kinds of settlements.
Agreed and understood that there are some more "cosmopolitan" settlements in Golarion, especially in the River Kingdoms. As long as this is not extended to absurdity such as welcoming vampires, lichs, demons, and devils...but allowing PCs to play these races, the next expectation is that they will be allowed anywhere (because restricting content is not "fair")...and this simply would not be the case, especially if the game ever expands out of the River Kingdoms.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Just as a comment on the "people would rise up and kill part demon/devils and the like", unless my grasp of Golarion is badly off, tieflings are actually not that uncommon (Thank you, Cheliax....) and are pretty widely tolerated, if viewed with suspicion. One of the things I like about the River Kingdoms is that they'll take in pretty much anybody, provided they play nice (enough) with others.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
To add a counterpoint in favor of goblin PCs down the road, there are some settlements that allow goblins to live there. If you read the Thornkeep book, there is a goblin tribe living in the town and they are tolerated by the Baron. Granted, the Baron is a werewolf and too lazy to do anything about a group that isn't a direct threat to him, but no one in town knows that. The fact that Thornkeep is the starter "outlaw" town, it seems likely that there is a precedence for goblins that control themselves enough to get by in the worst kinds of settlements.
Very solid point. I may have to pick up that book, if the pdf is not included in the Kickstarter pdf reward package (I don't remember what is and isn't in that package any more).
To add another point, Goblins of Golarion and We Be Goblins! established pretty conclusively that, in this setting at least, goblins are people. Demented, short-sighted, pyromaniacal, murderous people, but not un-thinking beasts. Their poetry and songs are popular with other races (scandalous, but popular). They have the attention span of a gnat, but they can learn PC class skills.
Would a goblin be allowed through the front gate of a lawful good city? Probably not. Could you find a few in that same city's garbage dump or sewer system? Maybe.
Edited to remove a reference to goblins writing. As if proper goblins would allow ink and paper to steal their thoughts!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I just hope we get kender.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I just hope we get kender.
Some friendly gentlemen who represent the spoooky wizard who lives on the coast would like to have a word with you about intellectual property rights.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Carbon, plans are for all the core races to be included, just how quickly (ie: before or during EE) isn't yet established. So Halflings are in :)
Personally, I would like to play a Tengu Samurai, but I suspect that is many years down the road... Then again, a Kobold Sorcerer (dragon bloodline naturally) with delusions of grandeur would also be a fun PC to RP.
Carbon, halflings will not be added until later in EE. We need kender at the start. Heck, let's put them in the Environment Experience!
Gnomes aren't hilarious enough. We need kender. It is clear I am not going to get my wish, though. PFO is not what I thought it would be. I want my money back, Goblinworks!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Personally, I think the best way to handle this kind of thing would be to look at how the Pathfinder Society regulates non-traditional races for organized play.
You have your basic races, and then there are special "boon" sheets you can acquire from your Society rep that can give you a specific character boost in one way or another, and at many event (Think Gen-Con) many of these boons were "You may start a character, or convert a level 1 character into X race!" The races vary every year what ones they have available and these are not the only way to earn these.
On that premise, make these unique character races become available through participation in WHATEVER ongoing community interest events that the users will attend and contribute to. Much of the time for TT games, these are done organized at Conventions, but since this is an electronic title, you can easily host big world events (Think holidays, and MAJOR update festivals) where the PCs can participate to either earn a similar permanent boon, or enter a lottery system for just such a thing. It doesn't have to be complicated really, any time you run into a friendly monstrous race NPC, this would give the GW team an opportunity to introduce a contextually appropriate opportunity to award the PC's with a chance to get this rare feature.
Ex. A troupe of gypsy Tengu is traveling through one settlement or another and requires some kind of significant PC assistance, whereby you either acquire a Tengu Egg, that allows you to start a new PC with that race, or some ritual to permanently alter your race. Success of this objective will likely be large scale to solve, involving dozens if not more players working co-operativley to contribute towards their chance at the lottery.
Not a bad idea
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Comparatively, a MONSTER has a set nature: A bit like an animal that is selectively bred to be aggressive and fight. Wolf cubs are a close natural example as compared to domesticated/tame dogs though a monster I imagine would be another order of magnitude more aggressive and all the rest of it?
I've heard that recent scientific theory suggests that humans did not domesticate dogs, instead it seems that wolves probably domesticated themselves. Learning to live in harmony with humans to profit from the mutual benefits. Eventually becoming man's best friend.
If an animal could figure this out and learn to control it's nature then it seems to me that an intelligent race could too. Monster races might be another order of magnitude more aggressive then wolves, but they're often another order of magnitude more intelligent too (though wolves can be pretty smart).
I see no reason why a monstrous race couldn't live among more civilized races if they desired to. They may be faced with hatred and suspicion and prejudice, but it's not like the common races don't have to deal with that themselves sometimes (or most of the time).
In the end it's our choices and actions that define us. Monsters can choose to be heroes while "normal" people can act like monsters.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I've heard that recent scientific theory suggests that humans did not domesticate dogs, instead it seems that wolves probably domesticated themselves. Learning to live in harmony with humans to profit from the mutual benefits. Eventually becoming man's best friend.
This is utterly fascinating to me. I'm going to have to search up some information on this :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Comparatively, a MONSTER has a set nature: A bit like an animal that is selectively bred to be aggressive and fight. Wolf cubs are a close natural example as compared to domesticated/tame dogs though a monster I imagine would be another order of magnitude more aggressive and all the rest of it?I've heard that recent scientific theory suggests that humans did not domesticate dogs, instead it seems that wolves probably domesticated themselves. Learning to live in harmony with humans to profit from the mutual benefits. Eventually becoming man's best friend.
If an animal could figure this out and learn to control it's nature then it seems to me that an intelligent race could too. Monster races might be another order of magnitude more aggressive then wolves, but they're often another order of magnitude more intelligent too (though wolves can be pretty smart).
I see no reason why a monstrous race couldn't live among more civilized races if they desired to. They may be faced with hatred and suspicion and prejudice, but it's not like the common races don't have to deal with that themselves sometimes (or most of the time).
In the end it's our choices and actions that define us. Monsters can choose to be heroes while "normal" people can act like monsters.
I have often suspected that my dog was the actual master...
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've heard that recent scientific theory suggests that humans did not domesticate dogs, instead it seems that wolves probably domesticated themselves. Learning to live in harmony with humans to profit from the mutual benefits. Eventually becoming man's best friend.This is utterly fascinating to me. I'm going to have to search up some information on this :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Nihimon: A very good popular science book on dogs: "In Defence of Dogs".
@Bringslite: I look after an old border terrier and am often called his "man-servant". :)
@Vancent: That goes DEEP... need to get back to you on that!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
As for races I'd like to see. I'd love to have kobolds, though I'm a fan of 3.5's kobolds (little trap addicted miners who really, really like dragons), not so much pathfinder's (shamanistic barbarians that are somehow stupid despite having no intelligence penalties). I also wouldn't mind having goblins and think they'd be very fitting given the setting and the name of the company making the game.
Tiefling's and Aasimar would be fine additions, though a little boring. The mutability of pathfinder's tieflings would be difficult to implement however. Tengu would also be a welcome addition. Centaur's would be cool, except they're a little over powered (but ladder's would be their kryptonite).
I'm also a big werewolf fan and would love to be able to play one, but at the same I'm I realize they'd be over powered and difficult to implement. Meanwhile, if I never see a vampire again it'll be too soon, sparkly or not.
In general I'm in favor of smaller weaker uncommon races, like kobolds, their weakness would help reenforce the rarity of people playing them.
The act of making a "rare" race, will accomplish the exact opposite. Everyone wants to be the uncommon exception to the rule but in the end, you just wind up with exceptions that outnumber the rule.
However, in my personal experience, I find this concept that the exception becomes the rule falls apart when it comes to race. To be frank, the vast majority of people out there are simply xenophobic. They find playing non-human races weird and creepy. This is the exact reason that most games have humans, elves, dwarves, and halfling/gnome type races as their core races, they're safe. In games that do feature less human races I generally find that over half the player base will still be playing humans or elves. Non-human races are generally avoided, unless they're over powered, except by the eccentric minority that prefer that sort of thing (me being part of that minority).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd also like to mention the game production side of including extra races, especially less human ones. It's not simply a matter of using a model that already exists for NPC.
First of all, there is the customization options, if there are any, new assets will have to be created to grant the race all the customization on par with the existing races. But that's pretty minor really, untill you get into the next part...
...clothing and armor. Every single article you can equip to your character has to be stretched, scaled, and remodeled to fit the new race. Hundreds, or likely thousands of assets will need to be remade, the more inhuman the race the more work will be needed.
Then you need to animate everything. Every single move and animation in the game will have to be recreated, probably from scratch, for each new race, and, depending on the game engine's set up, for many of the new armor and clothes too.
All this represents hundreds or thousands of man hours of work, and hundreds of thousands of dollars in cost. What's more, if there are any anatomical differences between sexes of the race (and there generally are) then it all has to be done twice! Yet it still doesn't end there.
There is the programming to add the new playable race to the game, but that's pretty minor if the engine is built well. (Unless they need to implement all new racial abilities or the like.) Visual effects might also need to be adjusted or created for the new race.
Finally, once all the new content is made and implemented in the game, the testing begins. Hundreds of hours spent testing every little facet of the new race, and how it might affect the existing content. Not only to find bugs but then to spend even more hours pouring over spreadsheets and crunching numbers and tweaking gameplay to make sure the game stays properly balanced.
One year of solid work, 300 employees, contractors, freelancers, and volunteers, and several million dollars later, the new races is finally finished and in the game. Then they better hope the race is popular, or it could have all been for naught.
And that's only the production side. There's also the pre-production, where they design and plan all the new content needed for the race. There's the supervisors who have to organize all this and fit it into a practical schedule. The executives who need to convince the producers and investors that this is all worth paying for. And the marketing department which needs to create all the promotional material and convince everyone that this new race is a good thing.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I can verify Vancent's words as a Game Development Student and Graduate.
One this that was missed though was the meanest part, Skinning the armour.
This is where one sets the weight of each vertex in the mesh to the various bones in the bi-ped. And it could take days to get right for a single piece.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I can verify Vancent's words as a Game Development Student and Graduate.
One this that was missed though was the meanest part, Skinning the armour.
This is where one sets the weight of each vertex in the mesh to the various bones in the bi-ped. And it could take days to get right for a single piece.
That's a good point; I wasn't planning to go too in depth. There is also UV mapping, texturing, and creating shaders. As well as creating the rig used for skin weighting and animation.
For my purposes I generally throw the mapping and texturing in with modeling and the rigging and weighting in with animating. They are their own separate elements in the pipeline though.
As for races I'd like to see. I'd love to have kobolds, though I'm a fan of 3.5's kobolds (little trap addicted miners who really, really like dragons), not so much pathfinder's (shamanistic barbarians that are somehow stupid despite having no intelligence penalties).
Absolutely ludicrous. Pathfinder kobolds are, if anything, more dignified than 3.5's. Perhaps you haven't read Monsters of Golarion (or whatever it's called).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
As for races I'd like to see. I'd love to have kobolds, though I'm a fan of 3.5's kobolds (little trap addicted miners who really, really like dragons), not so much pathfinder's (shamanistic barbarians that are somehow stupid despite having no intelligence penalties).Absolutely ludicrous. Pathfinder kobolds are, if anything, more dignified than 3.5's. Perhaps you haven't read Monsters of Golarion (or whatever it's called).
Truthfully, I have not, only the Bestiary blurb on them. I'll be sure to check it out though if it can redeem pathfinder's kobolds.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Comparatively, a MONSTER has a set nature: A bit like an animal that is selectively bred to be aggressive and fight. Wolf cubs are a close natural example as compared to domesticated/tame dogs though a monster I imagine would be another order of magnitude more aggressive and all the rest of it?I've heard that recent scientific theory suggests that humans did not domesticate dogs, instead it seems that wolves probably domesticated themselves. Learning to live in harmony with humans to profit from the mutual benefits. Eventually becoming man's best friend.
If an animal could figure this out and learn to control it's nature then it seems to me that an intelligent race could too. Monster races might be another order of magnitude more aggressive then wolves, but they're often another order of magnitude more intelligent too (though wolves can be pretty smart).
I see no reason why a monstrous race couldn't live among more civilized races if they desired to. They may be faced with hatred and suspicion and prejudice, but it's not like the common races don't have to deal with that themselves sometimes (or most of the time).
In the end it's our choices and actions that define us. Monsters can choose to be heroes while "normal" people can act like monsters.
The four gods now referred to as the Goblin Hero-Gods were initially minor Barghest deities in the service of Asmodeus. The four found that when they killed mortal creatures the spilled blood turned into Goblins. They swiftly secured the loyalty of their new creations.
Given that dogs either evolved neutrally or were created by (a) much less evil God(s), depending upon your respective worldview, I am not sure the comparison is valid. I have to agree with AvenaOats.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Anyways, like I said before, allowing monstrous races to be at all easy to acquire will diminish the impact of those races. Goblins will stop being seen as wacky menaces if there's a guild of agreeable goblin gardeners. And allowing planetouched (or dhampirs, or whatever) will, in my personal opinion, make Golarion more of a "world of weirdos" than it was designed as.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
To add a counterpoint in favor of goblin PCs down the road, there are some settlements that allow goblins to live there. If you read the Thornkeep book, there is a goblin tribe living in the town and they are tolerated by the Baron. Granted, the Baron is a werewolf and too lazy to do anything about a group that isn't a direct threat to him, but no one in town knows that. The fact that Thornkeep is the starter "outlaw" town, it seems likely that there is a precedence for goblins that control themselves enough to get by in the worst kinds of settlements.Very solid point. I may have to pick up that book, if the pdf is not included in the Kickstarter pdf reward package (I don't remember what is and isn't in that package any more).
To add another point, Goblins of Golarion and We Be Goblins! established pretty conclusively that, in this setting at least, goblins are people. Demented, short-sighted, pyromaniacal, murderous people, but not un-thinking beasts. Their poetry and songs are popular with other races (scandalous, but popular). They have the attention span of a gnat, but they can learn PC class skills.
Would a goblin be allowed through the front gate of a lawful good city? Probably not. Could you find a few in that same city's garbage dump or sewer system? Maybe.
Edited to remove a reference to goblins writing. As if proper goblins would allow ink and paper to steal their thoughts!
These two posts, pretty much justify why GOBLIN WORKS!! should include Goblins as a starting race.
This decision is backed up by the lore of the game world. It is in the Pathfinder TT. It would make PFO stand out among all of the other MMOs.
It would NOT as some would claim, lead to some massive World of Goblins event. Just as some claim, if left to their own devices, most players would be CE is a false belief that has never been a reality in any MMO.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'm impressed with the graphical models that GW has been able to create for them. They look and animate brilliantly already. As for inclusion, I think the exceptional races should be if included still exceptional: Which I mean there is delicate balance:
1) Add if enough uptake
2) But limits on uptake due to some strong lore logic for eg Rule: "Goblins can only be <CHAOTIC> NOT <GOOD>?" Alignment for a quick and hypothetical example.
As can be seen 2) somewhat clashes with 1). But 2) should not be ignored because of 1)... = looking after the lore, I think?
Besides GW may be happy to include such embellishments of avatar choice once the main game is in full-throttle.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think monstrous races should be part of the cash shop, if permitted at all. It might also be a good idea to require the monster-playing account to have been in place for a while, to discourage someone from just coming to the game and immediately entering with a goblin.
In other words, I want abnormal races to be abnormal.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Just some quick thoughts off the top of my noggin at 3:30 in the morning ...
1) Monster 'races' should be very expensive to purchase, with the more 'powerful' monster races costing extreme amounts of real-life money, and should require either a Fully Paid account for 3 months, or at least 6 months of play-time and X-amount of money spent in the store. The more 'powerful' a Monster is than a Player Race, the higher the cost goes, plus the time/account requirement to ensure that players aren't immediately dipping into the game and using their 'over-powered' Monsters to dominate other new players who are playing with straight vanilla races and do not have the broad skill/ability/badge selection to compensate for the Monster's greater strengths.
3) Before any transactions take place, the request for a Monster race is sent to the Game Masters/Moderators, with the option for the transaction to vetoed by Goblinworks, especially if the player has a record of troublesome incidents and Goblinworks believes said player is attempting to use said Monster Race to destabilize the game somehow, or the request might cause undue chaos in the current setting the player occupies.
4) Most 'Monster' races will be unwelcome in NPC domain, and might cause penalities to the Development Indexes of settlements of opposing alignments to their normal alignment, but a suitably dedicated 'Monster' PC might be able to mitigate that.
5) Certain Monsters would be just too hard to code in. Vampires go poof in the sunlight, cannot cross water and cannot enter a private dwelling or building without permission, for one thing, and Natural Werewolves can potentially infect everyone they meet with a bite, but a Infected Werewolf can't control themselves on the night of a full moon, which could cause the player to rampage around a settlement and kill off vital NPCs/PCs.
6) Nothing too outlandish. Half-Dragons, Minotaurs, Ogres and other CR 6-8 monsters only, no Half-Fiends or Half-Celestials or anything that might lock players out of class/racial abilities due to their inherent natures conflicting with the PC's alignment choices.
7) Playing a 'Monster' causes your skills to develop slower, to compensate for the increased 'power' the Monster race applies to the Player. As the Player's 'level' increases, this limitation will quickly disappear, but again, to ensure that a Monster Race is powerful but not unduly crippling to either the Player or their Rivals.
8)Monster Races are subject to immediate withdrawl from an account without refund if the player in question is found to have utilized their purchase to A) Destabilize the game with the express purpose of harming the image of the game and the parent companies B) Attempt to drive player away from the game by utilizing the Monster race/character to maliciously attack in a way that is designed to cause emotional distress in the real world C) Utilizing the Monster Race/Character to create and exploit coding loop-holes and/or bugs to develop an unfair advantage over other players.
Blah, this sounded so much better in my head ... and fffffffffffffffff, so many spelling errors I've had to go back and fix. Time for bed!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think monstrous races should be part of the cash shop, if permitted at all. It might also be a good idea to require the monster-playing account to have been in place for a while, to discourage someone from just coming to the game and immediately entering with a goblin.
In other words, I want abnormal races to be abnormal.
I won't belabor the point too much but there is this...
there are some settlements that allow goblins to live there. If you read the Thornkeep book, there is a goblin tribe living in the town and they are tolerated by the Baron. Granted, the Baron is a werewolf and too lazy to do anything about a group that isn't a direct threat to him, but no one in town knows that. The fact that Thornkeep is the starter "outlaw" town, it seems likely that there is a precedence for goblins that control themselves enough to get by in the worst kinds of settlements.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
In fact in conjunction with:
The Long-Term Plan
One of the very best features of this time-based character advancement system is that it allows us to plan to deliver content on a fairly lengthy schedule. In many theme park MMOs, players will min-max their play so that they advance rapidly through the character power system, reaching maximum potential power within weeks or months. To support that, the game has to have almost all its systems implemented at launch.
Our time-based system means that no character can advance past a certain point in real time regardless of how much game time the player invests. We can thus build our design plan around a much lengthier calendar than a typical theme park MMO. We'll be able to ensure that game systems get lots of testing at each stage of the character power arc before the next stages come available. And we can also ensure that we don't have max-power characters running around in the game for a very, very long time, which promotes our ideas about long-term focus and commitment to the game.
Pathfinder Online is going to be a game where you're engaged for years, not months.
The fact the skills are not known ahead of being refined by players seems very positive. Additional to future races that perhaps can be "more interpretive" by players?
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't see how goblins could be implemented in a manner that is both intrinsically different from PCs and can benefit from the same development.
Goblin settlements that are just reskinned player settlements aren't interestingly different, and if the goblin settlements have different effectiveness at the same thing that PC settlements have, then goblins become just another PC race without particularly special properties.
You can't have special things in a MMO be accessible even to everyone who wants them. SWG limited Jedi rather strictly, with hard and uncertain prerequisites. Perhaps some kind of limit well beyond self-selection combined with monstrous players being radically different could satisfy most advocates here.