Here's a little mind-bender from one of my players:
- Detect Evil doesn't work on aligned creatures of 4 HD or less, so they can escape Detect Evil without the use of spells. Very important in low-level campaigns.
- Protection from Evil has no HD limitation, and provides a +2 deflection bonus vs. evil creatures.
So my player claims Protection from Evil is an "improved" Detect Evil because you can just cast it, try to shake hands with all the people you're trying to scan, and find out which ones meet with resistance.
I agree with him that Protection from Evil seems to work on all evil creatures, even an evil human commoner, and I'll accept that a PC would feel some kind of effect between himself and the farmer when he tried to shake his hand. But since it's touch only, and one creature at a time only, I don't think it's game-breaking.
Anyone care to make a ruling on this (mis)use of Protection from Evil?
|
I don't see how a +2 deflection bonus applies to the act of willingly shaking someone's hand. I think of a deflection bonus as something that stops arrows and swords, ie. fast-moving things meant to harm you. If you're wearing a ring of protection, you're not going to be unable to ride a horse because of some forcefield.
+2 Deflection bonus.
Meaning if they try to hit you, they have less of a chance of hitting.
But if you're shaking hands with them, you're essentially forfeiting your "dodge", much like forfeiting a saving throw. You've let the evil in, in a way, and thus wouldn't feel any of the effects.
Here's a little mind-bender from one of my players:
- Detect Evil doesn't work on aligned creatures of 4 HD or less, so they can escape Detect Evil without the use of spells. Very important in low-level campaigns.
- Protection from Evil has no HD limitation, and provides a +2 deflection bonus vs. evil creatures.So my player claims Protection from Evil is an "improved" Detect Evil because you can just cast it, try to shake hands with all the people you're trying to scan, and find out which ones meet with resistance.
I agree with him that Protection from Evil seems to work on all evil creatures, even an evil human commoner, and I'll accept that a PC would feel some kind of effect between himself and the farmer when he tried to shake his hand. But since it's touch only, and one creature at a time only, I don't think it's game-breaking.
Anyone care to make a ruling on this (mis)use of Protection from Evil?
Everybody will rush in here to tell you how wrong this is, and against the rules...etc, etc. Your player is a horrible powergamer....
To me, I think it a GREAT idea. Your player is being creative, and thinking outside of the box. This should be rewarded and praised! But having something like this, perhaps you think it breaks your game.
So, a compromise. Instead of a flat detect evil, say it is so slight that it is hard to tell like detect evil, because the spell wasn't meant for it. So instead, for sacrificing that spell to cast it, give him a bonus on a Sense Motive roll against whomever he is checking. Done and done.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
It's an interesting idea. I'd probably make the effect subtle as Skeletal Steve suggested and be aware that there is a lot of potential for false positives - if the target has their own deflection bonus (from a ring, spell, etc.) the "repulsion" would feel identical. Also to make this work the PC would have to never have an "always on" deflection bonus themselves, or else everybody would trigger it all the time.
So we have a trick that is sometimes useful, requires the PC to go without one of the staple pieces of equipment, and at best only gives suggestion of NPC alignment due to the risk of false positives. Doesn't seem broken to me.
Sorry but it does not work that way. The deflection bonus only affect your opponent not you. If it worked the way you seem to think it does you should be taking a penalty to hit equal to the deflection bonus. The deflection bonus is from the intervention of some higher power.
Even if it did work that way how do you know why a person did not hit you. Other than a armor or shield bonus there is no way to tell what caused the person to miss. If your opponent misses you by one point was it the dodge bonus, the deflection bonus, the morale bonus, the luck bonus, or was it his strength penalty kicking in?
|
|
AC assumed you're trying not to get hit; which is why you don't roll to-hit when doing a touch on an ally. I'd say accepting a handshake is rather similar to accepting a touch from an ally. So you're not making a "to handshake" roll, and the Deflection bonus doesn't really come into play.
I do like the idea though, but detecting a +2 deflection in a handshake with a presumably not entirely familiar person is tough; there's a lot of "noise" in that already (does he have a strong grip by nature? is he absent-mindedly shaking your hand or really paying attention?).
I think the most elegant way would be to grant a +2 circumstance bonus on the Sense Motive check to get a hunch about whether someone is trustworthy.
By the rules no. AC stop attacks, not mundane contact.
Nope. The deflection bonus wont force their hand away and betray them as evil unless they are a summoned creature.
However, they should be able to use sense motive to get a hunch that someone might be evil if it isn't explicit.
|
The See alignment spell doesn't have any level restriction. Though you do have to pick one alignment combo only.
I'd simply not go there, you do not have to apply physics and logical deduction with magic. It tends to make magic overpowered, if you want to run a balanced game go with the reasoning that limits magic most while doing what it needs to do.
Just following up that I appreciate all the feedback; it was more of a hypothetical argument than something he was going to try.
I'd missed the "distance of 1 foot". That pretty much eliminates any chance of this working as suggested in my original post. I like the idea of a fairly difficult Sense Motive roll (DC 20 or so) to notice that the person is mildly deflected.
Keep in mind that if you let this work then you also just made folks with high deflection AC's life alot more difficult.
The barmaid is handing off a mug of ale to you.. Roll to see if you can take it without getting that D-AC off first.
The Queen wants to bestow a medal on you. Better take that ring off first, it'd be awfully silly if she missed.
Cleric wants to CLW you, better watch out for that deflection bonus.
It is a neat and creative idea. But if you let it work then deflection bonuses work that way in your world- not just for this one limited spell effect.
-S
I would add, if it doesn't have an attack roll, or a CMB roll, it isn't combat. No AC bonus from the spell.
Just following up that I appreciate all the feedback; it was more of a hypothetical argument than something he was going to try.
I'd missed the "distance of 1 foot". That pretty much eliminates any chance of this working as suggested in my original post. I like the idea of a fairly difficult Sense Motive roll (DC 20 or so) to notice that the person is mildly deflected.
If you're referring to my suggestion that wasn't what I suggested at all. I suggested that you can make a Sense Motive Skill check of a DC 20 for a "hunch" (as suggested by the skill description) that someone might be evil. If they're deliberately hiding their evil nature then you might instead make the check a Sense Motive opposed by their Bluff, or DC 20, whichever is greater. Anything to do with deflection is just way off in any sense of RAW. Any accepted touch (as a handshake would be) would not trigger the deflection bonus. In order for deflection to do anything there has to be hostile intent and that means an attack roll as well.