I've been thinking about how martials fit into the game at high levels. In games which reach high levels the whole system changes. I've only played into the upper levels once, with a loremaster wizard, and boy was it different. Scry and fry, major teleport shenanigans, Contingency spells, two wizards and a cleric casting about 5-6 spells a round between them, clones and so on and so forth.
How does a 20th barbarian/fighter/ranger/etc, deal with the world of high level play? Essentially, according to the game, a party of martials should be able to take on a single 20th level wizard lich, But how could they? consider the following example:
Assume that somehow they find the lich in the first place, They enter the room and then, 1, the casts time stop, delayed blast fireball twice, timed to coincide with time stop ending, casts teleport, arrives, fireballs go off, casts every buff (repulsion, stoneskin, invisibility statue, etc) on himself, casts time stop again, greater teleports back to adventurers, casts summon monster 8 twice, time stop ends, opens with dominate person followed by quickened dominate person and then combat begins.
If they somehow manage to actually injure him, a contingency spell will likely whisk him off to safety, if they somehow manage to kill him, then they have 1d10 IIRC days before he's back and pissed. Since his phylactery is probably on another plane. Either way he can hunt them with magic at his leisure, taking out one at a time when they're least ready for it.
So my question is basically what does a 20th level fighter do in the face of this kind of opposition, from an in character point of view? Do 20th level fighters even exist? How would they see themselves from an in character perspective? How would they protect themselves from these sort of shenanigans?
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I'm going to go ahead and nip this in the bud.
They don't, at high levels casters entirely outpace martials and there is not a way to balance it without reworking the entire system.
I'm going to go ahead and nip this in the bud.
They don't, at high levels casters entirely outpace martials and there is not a way to balance it without reworking the entire system.
That's not what I asked though. I'm asking about this from an in world perspective.
That's not what I asked though. I'm asking about this from an in world perspective.I'm going to go ahead and nip this in the bud.
They don't, at high levels casters entirely outpace martials and there is not a way to balance it without reworking the entire system.
Again, they don't. Even if they could show off their herculean strength, a caster of equal level would do things so amazing that whatever way the world looks at him, he's still nothing special unless you tweak the setting to the martial's favor. No matter what "perspective" you put this into, what Ptolmaeus Arvenus here said is true.
They ask their 20th level casting buddies to help. ;-)
Hypothetically, there probably are dedicated mage-killers in Golarion and presumably some of them have lasted long enough to get pretty epic. It's very likely they would make deals with other powerful figures to get the support they would need to ruin the day of their target (Any good combat strategist knows that good support is the key to winning a lot of fights). They would not go after the target caster alone and at 20th level of a long career they probably have all kinds of toys to back them up.
A good mage-killer would do his research and learn the weaknesses of the more dangerous magical-tactics so he could exploit them. This would likely take some extraordinary effort on his part since the higher level spells are definitely not common knowledge.
In the end, from an in-world perspective, casters have to nerf themselves somehow or else we'd end up accruing hundreds of Runelord knock-offs who'd spend their days bickering over territory.
Well... There is always the Pounce + Spell Sunder Barbarian build. That is pretty much the only martial that can face a caster and actually have a chance.
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First, they stock up on magic items. Lots of them. They pile on the contingency plans, the same way a wizard does, only theirs are in the form of trinkets they carry around. They max out UMD and try to have as many options as the magic-throwing nuts they're going up against.
Next, they try to limit their foes' mobility as much as possible. Dimensional Anchoring Ghost Touch Nets. Lassos of "Yer goin' Nowhere" (said like Macho Man). Anti-Magic fields. Rods of Disjunction. Spell Sunder.
High level martials are action movie heroes. The villains, and a lot of their allies even, always have them out gunned, outnumbered and outclassed. Martials win by sheer tenacious badassery. They refuse to die or quit and succeed by simply outlasting their enemies, harrying them and trapping them in a corner where the hero can finally get that one good sword blow into the slippery bad guy.
A couple of my favorite tricks-
Intelligent Bullets/Arrows/knives with a Bracelet of Friends. You and your pals have the charms. Stick the bad guy. If he teleports away, your intelligent ammo calls your party right along.
Rings of Counterspells with Timestop cast into them. Because seriously, screw that.
I don't think it is going to be that much of a problem.
Consider that a lvl 20 wizard lich probably has 130 hp, he is not going to survive that many attacks. Any respectable lvl 20 ranged character is going to off him in a full attack.
As others stated, with minimal preparation they can circumvent a lot of the lich's tricks, like protection from evil and high fire resistance.
You can always hide the phylactery in an impossible to find location, if you want to be that gm. But casters isn't going to find it either, provided the lich has done a minimum to protect it from scrying.
20th level mage hunting fighters can only do a few things to make hunting 20th level mages easier. all of which require a few mage friends of their own.
1. bring a spellcasting ally or few with access to such things as glitterdust, flight, and dispel magic
2. bring a ranged weapon and pray your casting buddy can prevent such crippling things as wind walls. archery specialists do this best
3. Play AM BARBARIAN, wait for mage to run out of supplies, RAGELANCEPOUNCE the mage shortly after he exits his tower to resupply, if he sends servants to do his shopping, kill the servants, so he has to step out into the open eventually
4. Invest in stealth, spend a while learning the wizard's schedule, disable his traps, Coup De Grace Him while he sleeps. each clone comes with negative levels attached, study the wizard and find out likely phylactery candidates. i doubt the lich would make jewelry his phylactery, too obvious, to show he is totally in control and to make it less obvious. i think the real phylactery is the chastity device known as his preferred undergarment that he frequently wears. i also doubt a lich would hide their phylactery either, because to monitor it, they would want to keep it close, in fact, keeping it right against the waist and upper legs seems to be the best way to monitor it.
5. bring a psionic character, they aren't technically proper mages, but they have a lot of a spellcaster's basic tricks. might be a little weaker, until they spam dispels to interrupt the silly wizard.
6. if you are of the mage's preferred gender, disguise yourself, play up thier fetishes, seduce them, murder them while they are defenseless
Playing the Lich as an idiot and removing all the possible buffs he could have is unrealistic.
Since the Lich is a Wizard, it is assumed he has a massive Intelligence score by the time he hits 20, and would thus be smart enough to hide his phylactery in an insanely hard to reach place, probably filled with guards called with Planar Binding or other means.
Playing the Lich as an idiot and removing all the possible buffs he could have is unrealistic.
Since the Lich is a Wizard, it is assumed he has a massive Intelligence score by the time he hits 20, and would thus be smart enough to hide his phylactery in an insanely hard to reach place, probably filled with guards called with Planar Binding or other means.
most wizards don't have the charisma to control planar bound minions. many of them dump it as low as 7, or even 5. try to control a bound or gated balor with that. not so easy.
That's why I said "or other means".
most wizards don't have the charisma to control planar bound minions. many of them dump it as low as 7, or even 5. try to control a bound or gated balor with that. not so easy.Playing the Lich as an idiot and removing all the possible buffs he could have is unrealistic.
Since the Lich is a Wizard, it is assumed he has a massive Intelligence score by the time he hits 20, and would thus be smart enough to hide his phylactery in an insanely hard to reach place, probably filled with guards called with Planar Binding or other means.
Lichs and old people get charisma bonuses. A venerable lich gets +5 charisma.
Playing the Lich as an idiot and removing all the possible buffs he could have is unrealistic.
Since the Lich is a Wizard, it is assumed he has a massive Intelligence score by the time he hits 20, and would thus be smart enough to hide his phylactery in an insanely hard to reach place, probably filled with guards called with Planar Binding or other means.
Doesn't the point then become: A lich played cleverly, can always hide his phylactery in a impossible to find/get to location?
It is correct, if the GM choose to do it that way. But it might not make for a very good game.
We can always build encounters that the players are going to loose against without preparation.
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I'm going to go ahead and nip this in the bud.
They don't, at high levels casters entirely outpace martials and there is not a way to balance it without reworking the entire system.
Then I need to nip your nip in the bud and just say that you obviously haven't seen a 20th level fighter or barbarian in action.
Playing the Lich as an idiot and removing all the possible buffs he could have is unrealistic.
Since the Lich is a Wizard, it is assumed he has a massive Intelligence score by the time he hits 20, and would thus be smart enough to hide his phylactery in an insanely hard to reach place, probably filled with guards called with Planar Binding or other means.
Yeah, I figure a 20th level Lich is going to have an int of 30-ish. At that point (and even before) anything anyone at the table can even come up with is fair game.
Playing the Lich as an idiot and removing all the possible buffs he could have is unrealistic.
Since the Lich is a Wizard, it is assumed he has a massive Intelligence score by the time he hits 20, and would thus be smart enough to hide his phylactery in an insanely hard to reach place, probably filled with guards called with Planar Binding or other means.
Doesn't the point then become: A lich played cleverly, can always hide his phylactery in a impossible to find/get to location?
It is correct, if the GM choose to do it that way. But it might not make for a very good game.
We can always build encounters that the players are going to loose against without preparation.
It's not really the GMs "fault" at that point though, We're talking about creatures that are highly intelligent. If the GM refuses to do justice to those creatures in terms of how they are played and presented, He shouldn't be running them anyway, IMO. However, I'm not even really looking at it from a player/GM point of view in any case. More of a in world POV.
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I've been thinking about how martials fit into the game at high levels. In games which reach high levels the whole system changes. I've only played into the upper levels once, with a loremaster wizard, and boy was it different. Scry and fry, major teleport shenanigans, Contingency spells, two wizards and a cleric casting about 5-6 spells a round between them, clones and so on and so forth.
How does a 20th barbarian/fighter/ranger/etc, deal with the world of high level play? Essentially, according to the game, a party of martials should be able to take on a single 20th level wizard lich, But how could they? consider the following example:
Assume that somehow they find the lich in the first place, They enter the room and then, 1, the casts time stop, delayed blast fireball twice, timed to coincide with time stop ending, casts teleport, arrives, fireballs go off, casts every buff (repulsion, stoneskin, invisibility statue, etc) on himself, casts time stop again, greater teleports back to adventurers, casts summon monster 8 twice, time stop ends, opens with dominate person followed by quickened dominate person and then combat begins.
If they somehow manage to actually injure him, a contingency spell will likely whisk him off to safety, if they somehow manage to kill him, then they have 1d10 IIRC days before he's back and pissed. Since his phylactery is probably on another plane. Either way he can hunt them with magic at his leisure, taking out one at a time when they're least ready for it.
So my question is basically what does a 20th level fighter do in the face of this kind of opposition, from an in character point of view? Do 20th level fighters even exist? How would they see themselves from an in character perspective? How would they protect themselves from these sort of shenanigans?
That's easy to tackle.
1st: Those fireball spells require a reflex save and I don't know about you but I know a lot of high level martials that have a Ring of Evasion as a standard item.
2nd: Summon Monster is a neat spell but high level martials can do so much damage that they become trivial.
3th: Archer fighter (enough said)
4th: Boots of Flying is a nice standard item for a martial.
5th: Fighters have specific feats that deal with spellcasters.
6th: Fighters and Barbarians will have nice and will both possess DR so again, the summoned monsters will be trivial.
7th: Dust of Appearance and a simple bag of flour works wonders for those pesky invisible creatures.
8th etc etc etc....
I've played in lots of high level games so I can tell you that casters do not auto dominate the battle.
First, they stock up on magic items. Lots of them. They pile on the contingency plans, the same way a wizard does, only theirs are in the form of trinkets they carry around. They max out UMD and try to have as many options as the magic-throwing nuts they're going up against.
Next, they try to limit their foes' mobility as much as possible. Dimensional Anchoring Ghost Touch Nets. Lassos of "Yer goin' Nowhere" (said like Macho Man). Anti-Magic fields. Rods of Disjunction. Spell Sunder.
High level martials are action movie heroes. The villains, and a lot of their allies even, always have them out gunned, outnumbered and outclassed. Martials win by sheer tenacious badassery. They refuse to die or quit and succeed by simply outlasting their enemies, harrying them and trapping them in a corner where the hero can finally get that one good sword blow into the slippery bad guy.
A couple of my favorite tricks-
Intelligent Bullets/Arrows/knives with a Bracelet of Friends. You and your pals have the charms. Stick the bad guy. If he teleports away, your intelligent ammo calls your party right along.
Rings of Counterspells with Timestop cast into them. Because seriously, screw that.
See, That's exactly the kind of stuff I'm looking for.
Try to get past his DR (as well as any spells he might have set up in advance in case some would-be hero tries to come over and kill him) first and try not to get permanently Paralyzed by his Touch Attack since it seems likely to me that he'd survive that first round against the Ranger if not a second and a third as well.
Doomed Hero has some good tips. I love the intelligent item trick. Perfect for a mage hunting specialist.
However, I don't think the game really assumes a party of all martials. From what I can remember, playtests usually assume the standard 4 person party of fighter, wizard, rogue, and cleric. I could be wrong though.
Hypothetically, there probably are dedicated mage-killers in Golarion and presumably some of them have lasted long enough to get pretty epic. It's very likely they would make deals with other powerful figures to get the support they would need to ruin the day of their target (Any good combat strategist knows that good support is the key to winning a lot of fights). They would not go after the target caster alone and at 20th level of a long career they probably have all kinds of toys to back them up.
A good mage-killer would do his research and learn the weaknesses of the more dangerous magical-tactics so he could exploit them. This would likely take some extraordinary effort on his part since the higher level spells are definitely not common knowledge.
In the end, from an in-world perspective, casters have to nerf themselves somehow or else we'd end up accruing hundreds of Runelord knock-offs who'd spend their days bickering over territory.
That's kind of my point. I've played under GMs who take off the kid gloves when it comes to intelligent NPCs, and that what their worlds end up looking like. What I'm trying to figure out is, If I had a fighter whom I wanted to take to 20th, how could I even justify it? From an in character perspective (let's assume my fighter had sufficient intelligence to be a successful wizard, rolled stats) how could I justify him just choosing to keep on getting better with his sword?
I don't know about a fighter but it seems to me a paladin with a holy avenger would have a good shot at killing a lich.
That's kind of my point. I've played under GMs who take off the kid gloves when it comes to intelligent NPCs, and that what their worlds end up looking like. What I'm trying to figure out is, If I had a fighter whom I wanted to take to 20th, how could I even justify it? From an in character perspective (let's assume my fighter had sufficient intelligence to be a successful wizard, rolled stats) how could I justify him just choosing to keep on getting better with his sword?Hypothetically, there probably are dedicated mage-killers in Golarion and presumably some of them have lasted long enough to get pretty epic. It's very likely they would make deals with other powerful figures to get the support they would need to ruin the day of their target (Any good combat strategist knows that good support is the key to winning a lot of fights). They would not go after the target caster alone and at 20th level of a long career they probably have all kinds of toys to back them up.
A good mage-killer would do his research and learn the weaknesses of the more dangerous magical-tactics so he could exploit them. This would likely take some extraordinary effort on his part since the higher level spells are definitely not common knowledge.
In the end, from an in-world perspective, casters have to nerf themselves somehow or else we'd end up accruing hundreds of Runelord knock-offs who'd spend their days bickering over territory.
That's kind of hard to say. Maybe he hates magic with a passion and wants to prove he can outdo those casters without it? Makes for a good tragedy when he realizes magic just does everything better than his sword and his wits alone ever could. He might make an exception with magical items and limit his hate to casting by itself.
That's kind of my point. I've played under GMs who take off the kid gloves when it comes to intelligent NPCs, and that what their worlds end up looking like. What I'm trying to figure out is, If I had a fighter whom I wanted to take to 20th, how could I even justify it? From an in character perspective (let's assume my fighter had sufficient intelligence to be a successful wizard, rolled stats) how could I justify him just choosing to keep on getting better with his sword?Hypothetically, there probably are dedicated mage-killers in Golarion and presumably some of them have lasted long enough to get pretty epic. It's very likely they would make deals with other powerful figures to get the support they would need to ruin the day of their target (Any good combat strategist knows that good support is the key to winning a lot of fights). They would not go after the target caster alone and at 20th level of a long career they probably have all kinds of toys to back them up.
A good mage-killer would do his research and learn the weaknesses of the more dangerous magical-tactics so he could exploit them. This would likely take some extraordinary effort on his part since the higher level spells are definitely not common knowledge.
In the end, from an in-world perspective, casters have to nerf themselves somehow or else we'd end up accruing hundreds of Runelord knock-offs who'd spend their days bickering over territory.
Lots of ways! He could enjoy the simple thrill of physical combat; he could be dedicated to using his intelligence to perfect his swordplay and study tactics; he could distrust/dislike magic from a cultural/personal standpoint; so on and so forth. None of those options are contradictory to a fighter with high intelligence, at least not to my mind.
Oh, and if you want an example of a high-intelligence fighter, might I suggest Roy Greenhilt from the Order of the Stick webcomic for inspiration?
I kind of make a point of never playing characters who actively dislike magic. IMO it is one concept that simply can't be done effectively in D&D/Pathfinder.
I'm still interested in whether 20th level "mundane" characters would even be a thing that exists in the game world, from an unbiased point of view.
It is very unlikely, biased view or not.
most wizards don't have the charisma to control planar bound minions. many of them dump it as low as 7, or even 5. try to control a bound or gated balor with that. not so easy.Playing the Lich as an idiot and removing all the possible buffs he could have is unrealistic.
Since the Lich is a Wizard, it is assumed he has a massive Intelligence score by the time he hits 20, and would thus be smart enough to hide his phylactery in an insanely hard to reach place, probably filled with guards called with Planar Binding or other means.
It is true that alot of the wizards I've seen statted out on this board have low charisma.
Concluding from that, that they cannot control planar bound minions, is wrong to the point of weeping hilarity. Any caster worth his salt, and ESPECIALLY a level 20 caster, will so completely and utterly destroy, any chance the called minion has, that he can feasably ask ANYTHING of it. The only thing stopping it from instantly caving in, and agreeing to whatever the wizard asks, is the GM's interpretation of "unreasonable command".
If the wizard is prepared (which is a fair assumption, because he made it to level 20), then even a balor or pit-fiend are doomed to obey, once they're trapped in the summoning circle.
-Nearyn
Why don't you think it can be done effectively in D&D/Pathfinder? Not trying to be antagonistic, just curious. I've seen it done quite a bit in the Dragonlance novels quite effectively.
I'm still not sure why you think a 20th level "mundane" (which I think is a misnomer) martial character could not exist in the game world. Is it because you think such a character would think "I'm too weak, I'm going to learn some magic?" or is it that you think they would be killed off before they got to high levels? Or is it something else entirely?
Also, when you say "the game world", do you mean Golarion or an abstract game world?
Oh, and if you want an example of a high-intelligence fighter, might I suggest Roy Greenhilt from the Order of the Stick webcomic for inspiration?
That's the thing though, Roy is kind of an in-joke about this topic. In the beginning of the series the joke is why would someone with high intelligence be a fighter when he could be a wizard?
If it is a universal truth that Car X is better than Car Y, why would anyone not take Car X if offered?
That's kind of the dilemma here, which I tried to tell you about. It's why Roy is an in-joke, as you had pointed out.
He basically took Car Y despite everyone around him knowing that Car X is going to drive faster and safer than Car Y.
If it is a universal truth that Car X is better than Car Y, why would anyone not take Car X if offered?
That's kind of the dilemma here, which I tried to tell you about. It's why Roy is an in-joke, as you had pointed out.
He basically took Car Y despite everyone around him knowing that Car X is going to drive faster and safer than Car Y.
Well, the abilities of a specific character isn't really a consumer choice. The player might have considerations of whether a choice is optimal or not, the character don't.
Applying such a universal truth about game mechanics into a game world, is even more absurd than applying it to cars. While we actually could set up objective parameters for cars (safety, speed, comfort, fuel consumption, price, and more), people buy different cars, eventhough some of them are bound to be suboptimal.
Why don't you think it can be done effectively in D&D/Pathfinder? Not trying to be antagonistic, just curious. I've seen it done quite a bit in the Dragonlance novels quite effectively.
I'm still not sure why you think a 20th level "mundane" (which I think is a misnomer) martial character could not exist in the game world. Is it because you think such a character would think "I'm too weak, I'm going to learn some magic?" or is it that you think they would be killed off before they got to high levels? Or is it something else entirely?
Also, when you say "the game world", do you mean Golarion or an abstract game world?
A character that has trouble bypassing DR because he refuses to use an enchanted sword or wear a belt of strength isn't really something that would fly at most tables. Not to mention that you don't even get anything for your trouble in return.
As to "mundane" I think it's a misnomer too, hence the quote marks. I just use the term as a kind of shorthand in reference too non-casters. When I say "the game world" I mean the world that is implied by the rules of the game. The rest may be inferred.
If it is a universal truth that Car X is better than Car Y, why would anyone not take Car X if offered?
That's kind of the dilemma here, which I tried to tell you about. It's why Roy is an in-joke, as you had pointed out.
He basically took Car Y despite everyone around him knowing that Car X is going to drive faster and safer than Car Y.Well, the abilities of a specific character isn't really a consumer choice. The player might have considerations of whether a choice is optimal or not, the character don't.
Applying such a universal truth about game mechanics into a game world, is even more absurd than applying it to cars. While we actually could set up objective parameters for cars (safety, speed, comfort, fuel consumption, price, and more), people buy different cars, eventhough some of them are bound to be suboptimal.
What I'm saying is that it is a character choice. If your character already has the appropriate ability scores (and remember that these increase as you level) then training yourself to cast time stop (and assorted reality hacks, aka spells) is no more difficult than training yourself to be able to attack with a +17 BAB.
Why don't you think it can be done effectively in D&D/Pathfinder? Not trying to be antagonistic, just curious. I've seen it done quite a bit in the Dragonlance novels quite effectively.
I'm still not sure why you think a 20th level "mundane" (which I think is a misnomer) martial character could not exist in the game world. Is it because you think such a character would think "I'm too weak, I'm going to learn some magic?" or is it that you think they would be killed off before they got to high levels? Or is it something else entirely?
Also, when you say "the game world", do you mean Golarion or an abstract game world?
A character that has trouble bypassing DR because he refuses to use an enchanted sword or wear a belt of strength isn't really something that would fly at most tables. Not to mention that you don't even get anything for your trouble in return.
As to "mundane" I think it's a misnomer too, hence the quote marks. I just use the term as a kind of shorthand in reference too non-casters. When I say "the game world" I mean the world that is implied by the rules of the game. The rest may be inferred.
Ah, I wasn't really thinking of someone who distrusted magic items necessarily, more someone who distrusted arcane magic users. Then, they could use weapons/items infused with divine magic (even though the mechanical effects are identical).
I'm still confused as to why you think 20th level martial characters might not exist in a game world...you haven't really said why still, as far as I can tell. Could you please elaborate on that?
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My experience from high level play is that the best tactic is for the wizard to disable the enemy, so the fighter can kill it. A well made and buffed fighter will kill most anything it encounters on a full attack action. Boss monsters usually require two full-attacks.
A wizard or cleric simply does not have a spell on their lists that reliably does more damage than a hasted fighter. Virtually everything past CR12 will have spell resistance, immunities and so forth, so teamwork is the best way to go still. Nothing is immune to a +5 weapon.
Also, most APs tend to give out a maguffin weapon that does immense damage against the BBEG and the thematic enemies. (Suishen, Briar, etc)
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What I'm saying is that it is a character choice. If your character already has the appropriate ability scores (and remember that these increase as you level) then training yourself to cast time stop (and assorted reality hacks, aka spells) is no more difficult than training yourself to be able to attack with a +17 BAB.
I've got a hard time envisioning that as a character choice rather than a player choice.
Class, BAB, and ability scores are all game-mechanical terms, rather than in character considerations.
See, That's exactly the kind of stuff I'm looking for.First, they stock up on magic items. Lots of them. They pile on the contingency plans, the same way a wizard does, only theirs are in the form of trinkets they carry around. They max out UMD and try to have as many options as the magic-throwing nuts they're going up against.
Next, they try to limit their foes' mobility as much as possible. Dimensional Anchoring Ghost Touch Nets. Lassos of "Yer goin' Nowhere" (said like Macho Man). Anti-Magic fields. Rods of Disjunction. Spell Sunder.
High level martials are action movie heroes. The villains, and a lot of their allies even, always have them out gunned, outnumbered and outclassed. Martials win by sheer tenacious badassery. They refuse to die or quit and succeed by simply outlasting their enemies, harrying them and trapping them in a corner where the hero can finally get that one good sword blow into the slippery bad guy.
A couple of my favorite tricks-
Intelligent Bullets/Arrows/knives with a Bracelet of Friends. You and your pals have the charms. Stick the bad guy. If he teleports away, your intelligent ammo calls your party right along.
Rings of Counterspells with Timestop cast into them. Because seriously, screw that.
timestop is a personal effect, and does not actually stop time, it is more like a super haste for some rounds of 'apparent' time, so ring of counterspells would be useless. This is, in my opinion, also a reason why you would not be able to stack them on top of each other within a time stop. It has a random duration so the caster does not know exactly when it stops either.
Seriously though if anyone comes near enough with their scrolls of anti-magic shell the lich is dead meat.. bones or whatever..
most wizards don't have the charisma to control planar bound minions. many of them dump it as low as 7, or even 5. try to control a bound or gated balor with that. not so easy.Playing the Lich as an idiot and removing all the possible buffs he could have is unrealistic.
Since the Lich is a Wizard, it is assumed he has a massive Intelligence score by the time he hits 20, and would thus be smart enough to hide his phylactery in an insanely hard to reach place, probably filled with guards called with Planar Binding or other means.
It is true that alot of the wizards I've seen statted out on this board have low charisma.
Concluding from that, that they cannot control planar bound minions, is wrong to the point of weeping hilarity. Any caster worth his salt, and ESPECIALLY a level 20 caster, will so completely and utterly destroy, any chance the called minion has, that he can feasably ask ANYTHING of it. The only thing stopping it from instantly caving in, and agreeing to whatever the wizard asks, is the GM's interpretation of "unreasonable command".
If the wizard is prepared (which is a fair assumption, because he made it to level 20), then even a balor or pit-fiend are doomed to obey, once they're trapped in the summoning circle.
-Nearyn
Even an epic wizard should be carefully consider the enemies he makes, you think arch devils or demon lords enjoy it when mortals destroy their army officers ? The wizard has the option between making enemies for no profit or let this bird fly and probably still make an enemy, though probably a less dangerous one. Best option when you summoned your potential minion is to close a favorable deal and not ruffle too many feathers.
Anti-magic
Even an epic wizard should be carefully consider the enemies he makes, you think arch devils or demon lords enjoy it when mortals destroy their army officers ? The wizard has the option between making enemies for no profit or let this bird fly and probably still make an enemy, though probably a less dangerous one. Best option when you summoned your potential minion is to close a favorable deal and not ruffle too many feathers.
But that's a different issue entirely isn't it? Whether or not you make enemies in the process, in no way impedes your -ability- to capture, bind and force an outsider to serve you.
Very, very simple.
Win the initiative.
That's it. 4 of any type of 20th level character against a 20th level lich, if that lich rolls a 1 for initiative, he's a goner. Of course with a lich that just means he's temporarily gone unless the phylactery is destroyed, but still - combat over, good guys won. Action economy strikes again.
To get more complicated, if the lich knows they are coming and has time to buff or has the right Contingency spells on him, it definitely gets harder. And, of course this is his lair, so it will likely have some defenses. If he is well-prepared, and the fighters are not, it is likely to be a slaughterbouse, but that is true of any combat scenario.
Conversely, if the martial types have tracked down his sanctum sanctorum, know where he has his phylactery and developed a clever plan to surprise him, then even more dead.
But the OP doesn't say otherwise, so I'm assuming neither side has the chance to prepare ahead of time. So comes down to initiative.
Even an epic wizard should be carefully consider the enemies he makes, you think arch devils or demon lords enjoy it when mortals destroy their army officers ? The wizard has the option between making enemies for no profit or let this bird fly and probably still make an enemy, though probably a less dangerous one. Best option when you summoned your potential minion is to close a favorable deal and not ruffle too many feathers.But that's a different issue entirely isn't it? Whether or not you make enemies in the process, in no way impedes your -ability- to capture, bind and force an outsider to serve you.
Basically any trick a wizard can do is something a character with UMD and the proper magical items can do, the difference is how often you can do it, making powerful enemies does tend to hurt that ability.
Basically any trick a wizard can do is something a character with UMD and the proper magical items can do, the difference is how often you can do it, making powerful enemies does tend to hurt that ability.
What are we talking about? Because I was pointing out to Lumiere that wizards can easily planar bind any outsider in the bestiary, if it fits in the HD limit.
Wait a minute. If we're having a debate about a 20th level wizard vs. a 20th level martial, why does the wizard get to be a lich on top of it? Doesn't he already have enough advantages just by being a wizard?
One thing I will say is that as powerful as magic is in Pathfinder, it's honestly pretty weak when it comes to actually doing [single target] damage - especially at high levels (compared to martials, that is). I have a 15th level sorcerer in a Kingmaker game I'm playing in and for the most part our party's strategy for battles boils down to my character using spells to control the battlefield so that the martial characters can get into position to actually kill our enemies.