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And why the lich win initiative? there is no an archer with high dex in that martial group?
Also, a paladin could easily have maxed UMD, a scroll of antimagic field and the lich is over.
Aforementioned tricks will only work if the level 20 lich, is a horrendous waste of casterlevels and is completely unprepared for anything.
Yeah, unless the casters are played by selfish jerks, or inexperienced players, most every character in the party will have at LEAST resistance 30 against the common elements, spell immunity to the worst save or sucks, and means to engage most anything from level 12 and onwards.
Ever since we started playing 3.0, this statement has held true in every high level group in which I have ever played/been the GM. To assume that a fighter is without magical aid and protection is to assume that the party is flawed.
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I don't know people engage in these arguements. The people supporting the wizard assume the wizard is perfectly prepared and knows his opponents inside and out and his martial opponent(s) are clueless idiots attacking him with no weapons in their underwear.
The martial supports assume the opposite, with a well prepared and equipped person or group fighting a completely unprepared wizard who was sleeping at the beginning of the round and can't find his spell component pouch.
Let's face facts, if both sides are well equipped and prepared, it comes down to who has the better tactics and dice rolls.
To address the OP's original question, high level martials would exist in most campaigns. Mechanically, they will probably be in specific optimized combat roles (such as archer or pounce charger), but any role is possible for a character with a metric ton of feats, high hp, and full BAB.
You know what guys? forget it. There are like two or three people who've posted that actually get what I'm talking about. I'm done.
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You know what guys? forget it. There are like two or three people who've posted that actually get what I'm talking about. I'm done.
I totally get what your original question was and I think its rather simple. The same reason why on Earth in 2013 we have highly intelligent people choosing to make a living with their hands, i.e. sculpting, painting, MMA fighting et.al.---because they "feel" a pull, it
"calls" to them. Somewhere deep within the recesses of their soul and psyche this type of activity resonates with them. Sure, they could have become the CEO of some Fortune 500 company but it just didnt appeal to them on some level, rather concious or unconcious.There's just something so bad-ass and primal about a highly polished plate-mailed warrior wielding a shining greatsword to such deadly efficacy that the world around him explodes into a crimson spray.
Aforementioned tricks will only work if the level 20 lich, is a horrendous waste of casterlevels and is completely unprepared for anything.And why the lich win initiative? there is no an archer with high dex in that martial group?
Also, a paladin could easily have maxed UMD, a scroll of antimagic field and the lich is over.
Give your example of lich. Cause the problem of wizards prepared for everytihng is that they adapt their tactics on the fly in a schrodinger-like way.
First of, I will not be building a level 20 lich to post here, to back up my example. Also I am kinda sad that I've been threadjacking. As such I will post this answer to you and likely not that much else.
Cushioning bands, Protection from Arrows, Moment of Prescience and a contingency(forcecage) to put myself in a forcecage if I am the subject of more than 2 ranged attacks in the span of a single round. These effects are all off the top of my head, but they should be able to shut down the initial volley of ranged attacks.
A tall enclosure of wood, stone or any other stable material, 10 ft in diameter, shrunk with a shrink item spell and worn as a choker, will expand to its regular size upon being touched by the anti-magic field. This will block out the Anti-Magic, since by RAW it is an emmanation effect, and that gets blocked out by stuff like that.
In both these cases the wizard, of course, instantly teleports away. In fact, the teleportation could be the effect triggered by the contingency for all that matters. Once away, the wizard can begin his investigations into finding out who attacked him, and then make the trembling, little maggot suffer, for challenging his mighty magics :D
Note how I am not saying that wizards are unbeatable, only that a wizard seldomly make it to level 20, without learning how to be prepared for these sort of things.
-Nearyn
I like this. Fighters are useless vs casters because casters are great at running away.
I like this. Fighters are useless vs casters because casters are great at running away.
I'd say that's a pretty fair assessment :)
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A fighter that is not afraid of full casters.
I like this. Fighters are useless vs casters because casters are great at running away.I'd say that's a pretty fair assessment :)
Great: now you have a recurring BBEG.
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The essence of (wizard, or actually everyone's) strategy is: choose the battlefield.
A lich surprised in his sanctum is vulnerable. The lich is aware of that and 90% of his defences are meant to make sure that never even happens. If he's actually in a fight he didn't plan to have, 90 things have gone horribly wrong. We're talking plan ZZ here.
In a fair fight, those martials can take him. But he's trying not to have the fair fight. By hiding who he is (possession, illusions, shapechanging, clones, impersonators, fall guys etc.), where he is ("our lich is not in this castle"), making people prepare for the wrong fight ("turns out the Temple of Acid is actually Cold-themed") and just fleeing if he's not exactly sure of who's attacking him and why. Just go to your Summer Fortress of Doom on another plane.
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From my experience, I have seen casters have the most difficulty at high levels because of the amount of saves, immunities, SR, spell reflection, spell casting ability of others, spell like abilities, and resistances. Sink or swim spells are usually abandon at high levels and direct spells like fireball are almost forgotten.
People take about how marshals need magic users at high levels, but in reality the casters need the the marshals just as much. It can be hard for a caster to even touch most of the opponents at this level what with high saves, spell resistance and immunities. The best way for a caster to fight stuff is battle feild control and buff the marshals and protect the marshals. Because only the marshals can really effectively turn monsters to red mist. Steel is the best weapon against steel and anything material and magic is the best weapon against magic. The place the imbalance comes about it that wizards are a lot better at running away then marshals.
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Level 20 martial classes can exist in any game world. They may be rarer than the level 20 caster because we all know how the classes start out and end up with martial characters doing better in combat until around level 10, then things start to equalize in the mid levels of 11-15, and after 15 we know that the casters are the "most powerful."
I think of level 20 martial characters as being kings, emperors, and great generals of amazing renown. They survived their adventuring careers through the use of unsurpassed tactics, through the use of powerful magical items, and through the use of good allies. They didn't let themselves get caught in that kind of scenario with a lich in the first place, they knew when they were outmatched and they knew when to retreat. Let's face it, they are pretty frickin smart to have gotten to that level of power in the first place!
The fight between a level 20 lich on his home turf when he's much more prepared against a single level 20 fighter for example does indeed end in that fighter's demise. The problem with the scenario is that the fighter isn't alone and has friends along with him who he has been adventuring with. They will come prepared to fight that lich too, they'll have magical mcguffins up the wazhoo, they will have contingency plans, they will have at least one caster (either divine or arcane) if not two, they will outnumber that lich, and they will have faced very tough battles in the past and have superior tactics to most other parties. So a group of level 20's will more than likely succeed unless the dice gods are dastardly cruel.
It's a fun discussion.
most wizards don't have the charisma to control planar bound minions. many of them dump it as low as 7, or even 5. try to control a bound or gated balor with that. not so easy.Playing the Lich as an idiot and removing all the possible buffs he could have is unrealistic.
Since the Lich is a Wizard, it is assumed he has a massive Intelligence score by the time he hits 20, and would thus be smart enough to hide his phylactery in an insanely hard to reach place, probably filled with guards called with Planar Binding or other means.
It is true that alot of the wizards I've seen statted out on this board have low charisma.
Concluding from that, that they cannot control planar bound minions, is wrong to the point of weeping hilarity. Any caster worth his salt, and ESPECIALLY a level 20 caster, will so completely and utterly destroy, any chance the called minion has, that he can feasably ask ANYTHING of it. The only thing stopping it from instantly caving in, and agreeing to whatever the wizard asks, is the GM's interpretation of "unreasonable command".
If the wizard is prepared (which is a fair assumption, because he made it to level 20), then even a balor or pit-fiend are doomed to obey, once they're trapped in the summoning circle.
-Nearyn
20th level lich wizard controlling a balor or pit fiend with intimidation?
at best, a circumstance bonus on the Charisma check. which the high level outsider will most likely beat you on.
7+5=12 for +1. this is before you factor wish spamming. the balor still has decent saving throws, which scale far faster than the DC of your magic circle, greater teleport and planeshift at will. and is enough of a melee monster to kill the lick should the lich dare threaten his life.
it no longer becomes 20th level wizard against 20th level fighter but 20th level lich wizard against a 20th level fighter and a balor who cannot stand being pushed around. in fact, the balor would help the fighter kill the wizard because it outright cannot stand being enslaved against it's will by some soulless mortal with nothing worthy of payment. the fighter at least offers him freedom.
20th level lich wizard controlling a balor or pit fiend with intimidation?
at best, a circumstance bonus on the Charisma check. which the high level outsider will most likely beat you on.
7+5=12 for +1. this is before you factor wish spamming. the balor still has decent saving throws, which scale far faster than the DC of your magic circle, greater teleport and planeshift at will. and is enough of a melee monster to kill the lick should the lich dare threaten his life.
it no longer becomes 20th level wizard against 20th level fighter but 20th level lich wizard against a 20th level fighter and a balor who cannot stand being pushed around. in fact, the balor...
This all assumes the wizard is deciding to just conjure up an immensely powerful fiend, on a whim, without thought or preparation Lumiere. Also the wizard in your example is not using the mechanics of the Greater Planer Binding at all. Allow me to demonstrate:
A Greater Planar binding cannot actually call a Balor, since it has too many HD, but just for the sake of argument, let us take on this most majestic of challengers, and try to break the Balor.
We assume an intelligence of 30, and a charisma of 13 (7+6 from headband of mental superiority) for our risk-seeking caster.
We assume a secure summoning chamber, because our caster is no fool.
First you take 20, making the warding diagram, before casting Magic Circle against Evil. Then you cast Magic Circle against Evil to make the outsider trap and follow up dimensional anchor on the warding diagram. Note that you are specially permitted to cast dimensional anchor before calling a creature into the trap, BECAUSE you made the warding diagram. Once the warding diagram have been secured with dimensional anchor, you cast Greater Planar Binding and call into the trap, a mighty Balor. Thanks to your preparation, the Balor cannot test spell resistance against the magic circle, and thanks to the planar anchor, it cannot use any of its travelling abilities to leave the trap. The balor cannot in any way affect this diagram, meaning it has precisely ONE method of escaping, it tests charisma against DC 31 (15+10(half caster level)+1(charisma)+5(warding diagram)). The Balor have 27 charisma, meaning it cannot beat the charisma check DC at all, even with a natural 20, so it is completely trapped, locked in your outsider-trap, and it cannot do ANYTHING to escape.
So, Balor trapped with no way to escape, and no way to physically or magically affect the circle, diagram or anything outside of it. So there it is… stuck.
Now we have the basics down, now we need to trade. But we don’t just make a trade out of nowhere, nonono we believe in preparation, so we are going to completely and utterly destroy any chance for this creature to resist us.
We start by leaving a coin on the floor, outside the diagram and we cast geas on the Balor, and tell it to pick up the coin. Then we leave the room, rest, read a book and prepare to return in 4 days time, when the poor Balor’s abilities are all reduced by 12. Now its will save looks a bit more easily overcome (19 instead of 25). Now we start hammering down the Balor’s defences further with curses, and other magics, such as bestow curse, crushing despair and whatever else you can think of to break its saves and charisma.
27 charisma gets reduced to 15 by failing to complete the geas.
15 charisma gets reduced to 9 by bestow curse.
We already have the advantage on the Balor by now, but continue piling debuffs on if you feel like it.
Finally we cast moment of prescience to net ourselves a nifty +20 bonus on the upcoming opposed charisma check. So it’s time to make a deal.
At this point, you can make the Balor do ANYTHING. The only thing stopping you is your GM, who is the final adjudicator on what is an “impossible demand” and “unreasonable command”. Other than that, how can it hope to top you?! It has a -1 to charisma, +6 from the deal being majorly in your favor, and not at all in its. So a base of +5. Meanwhile you have a base of +21, without really even trying. Even if you fail one day, come back and try again the next.
And that is how you break the Balor. :D
-Nearyn
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20th level lich wizard controlling a balor or pit fiend with intimidation?
at best, a circumstance bonus on the Charisma check. which the high level outsider will most likely beat you on.
7+5=12 for +1. this is before you factor wish spamming. the balor still has decent saving throws, which scale far faster than the DC of your magic circle, greater teleport and planeshift at will. and is enough of a melee monster to kill the lick should the lich dare threaten his life.
it no longer becomes 20th level wizard against 20th level fighter but 20th level lich wizard against a 20th level fighter and a balor who cannot stand being pushed around. in fact, the balor...
This all assumes the wizard is deciding to just conjure up an immensely powerful fiend, on a whim, without thought or preparation Lumiere. Also the wizard in your example is not using the mechanics of the Greater Planer Binding at all. Allow me to demonstrate:
A Greater Planar binding cannot actually call a Balor, since it has too many HD, but just for the sake of argument, let us take on this most majestic of challengers, and try to break the Balor.
We assume an intelligence of 30, and a charisma of 13 (7+6 from headband of mental superiority) for our risk-seeking caster.
We assume a secure summoning chamber, because our caster is no fool.
First you take 20, making the warding diagram, before casting Magic Circle against Evil. Then you cast Magic Circle against Evil to make the outsider trap and follow up dimensional anchor on the warding diagram. Note that you are specially permitted to cast dimensional anchor before calling a creature into the trap, BECAUSE you made the warding diagram. Once the warding diagram have been secured with dimensional anchor, you cast Greater Planar Binding and call into the trap, a mighty Balor. Thanks to your preparation, the Balor cannot test spell resistance against the magic circle, and thanks to the planar anchor, it cannot use any of its travelling...
Major flaw here.
1st: Balor has to fail a Will save.
2nd: The creature must be with in spell range of 75 ft at 20th.
3rd: It's your Charisma vs his and he has a hell of lot more charisma than you do. So you are going to have to roll until you beat him which in turn becomes more and more dangerous because the moment you roll a 1 he is able to break free and kill you.
Edit: Another flaw: Geas will not work on a Balor because of Unholy Aura.
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Major flaw here.
1st: Balor has to fail a Will save.
2nd: The creature must be with in spell range of 75 ft at 20th.
3rd: It's your Charisma vs his and he has a hell of lot more charisma than you do. So you are going to have to roll until you beat him which in turn becomes more and more dangerous because the moment you roll a 1 he is able to break free and kill you.Edit: Another flaw: Geas will not work on a Balor because of Unholy Aura.
1: True, but I did not think this was relevant at all, since the point was to show how to deal with the creature after it had been called.
2: Incorrect. You call the outsider to your plane and make it appear anywhere -within- the spells range. So I can call said Balor to the material plane, 50ft away from me. But I still call it from the Abyss, so no, it does not have to be within 75 ft.
3: I am unsure which charisma test you are talking about. If you are talking about the initial test it can make to break free, it is not my charisma vs it's charisma, it is the Balor making a charisma check vs DC 15 + half my caster level + my charisma modifier(+ 5 from the warding diagram). It cannot make beat this DC, even with a natural 20, since natural 20 is not an automatic success on ability checks.
If you refer to the charisma check when making the actual deal, you are correct, it is opposed charisma, however as I wrote, we make an effort to lower his charisma and give him penalties, before we buff ourselves with moment of prescience (ensuring a +20 to our charisma check) and then we propose the deal and make the check. In this case, he cannot succeed on a natural 20 either, since again, natural 20's don't apply on ability checks.
EDIT:Assuming of course that I am good to begin with. Even if I am not, I shall just have to have a casting of geas commissioned from a neutral source and BOOM, no unholy aura protection for you. At 20th level, getting hold of such an an item will not present a challenge.
ADDITIONAL EDIT: removed "Also, me rolling a 1 in no way allows him to break free." because it was plainly wrong. I would blame the time, but a mistake is a mistake.
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Major flaw here.
1st: Balor has to fail a Will save.
2nd: The creature must be with in spell range of 75 ft at 20th.
3rd: It's your Charisma vs his and he has a hell of lot more charisma than you do. So you are going to have to roll until you beat him which in turn becomes more and more dangerous because the moment you roll a 1 he is able to break free and kill you.Edit: Another flaw: Geas will not work on a Balor because of Unholy Aura.
1: True, but I did not think this was relevant at all, since the point was to show how to deal with the creature after it had been called.
2: Incorrect. You call the outsider to your plane and make it appear anywhere -within- the spells range. So I can call said Balor to the material plane, 50ft away from me. But I still call it from the Abyss, so no, it does not have to be within 75 ft.
3: I am unsure which charisma test you are talking about. If you are talking about the initial test it can make to break free, it is not my charisma vs it's charisma, it is the Balor making a charisma check vs DC 15 + half my caster level + my charisma modifier. It cannot make this save, even with a natural 20, since natural 20 is not an automatic success on ability checks.
If you refer to the charisma check when making the actual deal, you are correct, it is opposed charisma, however as I wrote, we make an effort to lower his charisma and give him penalties, before we buff ourselves with moment of prescience (ensuring a +20 to our charisma check) and then we propose the deal and make the check. In this case, he cannot succeed on a natural 20 either, since again, natural 20's don't apply on ability checks.
Also, me rolling a 1 in no way allows him to break free.
If you ever roll a natural 1 on the
Charisma check, the creature breaks free of the spell’s effect and canescape or attack you. Emphasis mine.
In order to make the Balor do anything you have to make opposed Charisma checks.
The creature does not appear where you want it to. You have to actually target the creature with the spell.
Greater Planar Binding: Up to three elementals or outsiders, totaling no more
than 18 HD, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
when they appear.
The way this works is you call the Balor. It decides whether it wants to come or not. Now once it appears then it is allowed a saving throw. If it fails then it's drawn to the trap and held there, it isn't automatically in the trap when you cast the spell.
You don't get to designate where the creature or creatures actually appear.
I think there are a good many people who don't fully read the spell.
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In order to make the Balor do anything you have to make opposed Charisma checks.
I have never claimed otherwise. However I did wrongly claim that you do not fail on a natural one. I had forgotten that clause in the spell.
I think there are a good many people who don't fully read the spell.
Funny you should say that...
Casting this spell attempts a dangerous act: to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap, which must lie within the spell's range.
The -trap- must be within range. The called creature -CANNOT- be within range, as you attempt to lure it from another plane of existence.
Note that this does NOT mean the creature is just an outsider, who HAPPENS to be on the your plane, and you can then lure him into your trap. And we know this because the Planar Binding spells are calling spells.
Calling: a calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on.
So YES, we can call a creature from another plane, because this is both RAW and RAI. And YES, said creature appears in the trap we made for it, because that is what it says in the spelldescription. And YES, the creature does get to make a will-save as the spell is cast, but it is on it's own plane when this happens, because...
The target creature is allowed a Will saving throw. If the saving throw succeeds, the creature resists the spell.
"resist the spell" meaning, the spell does not take effect. Meaning the planar binding spell does not take effect. Meaning the calling does not take effect, and as such the creature is never transported from his plane to begin with.
-Nearyn
I know I said I was done, but I PMed someone who asked me to explain what I was on about more clearly, and thought I may as well paste here the following:
I say the following as a fan of fighters. It is not up for debate whether spellcasters outshine nonspellcasters. striking more accurately and more frequently with your weapon simply isn't in the same class as being able to teleport, fly, shapechange, travel the planes, control weather, scry, cast legend lore, body swap, create clones, use mind control, etc. and so on.
This is not controversial, it is widely accepted. I wasn't talking about the game from the perspective of a player or a GM, or talking about party composition or encounter design.
Having established that, I was asking people how characters themselves would adapt to and perceive this reality.
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The role of a high level martial character is the same as the role of a low level martial character: dishing out and absorbing damage. High level martial characters (especially fighters and barbarians) are walking gods. They are juggernauts on the battlefield that are virtually impossible to stop. They can absorb enormous punishment and anything foolish enough to venture within their reach is often dead before it can react.
At high levels even moderately optimized martial characters can dish out 200-300 damage a round on a full attack. With good rolls they can easily break closer to 400 - and that's before breaking out ranged attackers. When they crit they apply crippling penalties that allow no save to negate - only to mitigate in duration - and they can expect to crit on average once a round.
In parties they rely on spellcasters to open paths for them through enemy defenses or set them up - but the spellcasters rely just as much upon the martial characters to do the heavy lifting and killing.
As for martial characters vs. high end spellcasters alone - the key is (as it often is when these enemies are played just as intelligently against even spellcasting parties) putting the enemy in a position they are reluctant to retreat from. Force them to defend something - their ritual, library, allies, ect. Don't make retreat an option.
Oh, and play the enemies within the rules. Your example is illegal in at least two ways I can see off the top of my head (people forget the dominates are all full round actions for some reason...)
As to examples of high level martial characters in a game world - the first that jumps out at me is Warduke from Greyhawk, who is well known for hunting down and murdering entire adventuring parties (spellcasters included).
Try to get past his DR (as well as any spells he might have set up in advance in case some would-be hero tries to come over and kill him) first and try not to get permanently Paralyzed by his Touch Attack since it seems likely to me that he'd survive that first round against the Ranger if not a second and a third as well.
Guessing you've never seen high level martial character in action if you think DR is likely to slow down a 20th level martial character in the slightest.
I know I said I was done, but I PMed someone who asked me to explain what I was on about more clearly, and thought I may as well paste here the following:
I say the following as a fan of fighters. It is not up for debate whether spellcasters outshine nonspellcasters. striking more accurately and more frequently with your weapon simply isn't in the same class as being able to teleport, fly, shapechange, travel the planes, control weather, scry, cast legend lore, body swap, create clones, use mind control, etc. and so on.
This is not controversial, it is widely accepted. I wasn't talking about the game from the perspective of a player or a GM, or talking about party composition or encounter design.
Having established that, I was asking people how characters themselves would adapt to and perceive this reality.
I feel like, and this goes for all characters by the way, that at some point, you stop being "just" another person and become a walking legend. However what you decide to do, is all up to the character in question. The personality of the character, is easily the most important factor, in deciding how he percieves himself, in relation to the world. In the public eye though, they will likely all have something in common, like all being considered the greatest sword-masters, lords of battle, the blade of a nation, or maybe even contenders for the Starstone challenge.
Is this along the lines of what you are looking for? :)
-Nearyn
I think fighters would view themselves much the same at level 1 and level 20, heroes and adventurers. It is wizards that would be viewed differently as demigods, and view themselves as something more than human. There aren't very many spell slingers in literature that are just monster murderers. They tend to be more schemers and big picture guys. It's not like fighter types spend level 1-20 battling just wizards, they tend to beat up a large number of big angry things like giants that they do quite well at. Pick up an old Conan story and you'll see the kind of respect and fear a sorcerer garners, yet at the end if Conan gets his angry mitts on him, no matter how easily he played with him from afar, he usually gets broken.
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I would think you start thinking differently when, one day, at the humble level of 10, you help defending a village against a dragon-attack. During an overflight, the dragon lets loose a devastating breath of flame, that turns the beach in front of you to glass, and melts the buildings behind you, yet, despite being hurt, you are alright. The militia-men that were with you are no more than black streaks along the cobblestones, but you could likely take another one of those blasts, before even reaching for your potions.
Your amazing strength is enough kncck down a city wall, your sword-skills have allowed you to take down nearly every challenger in the past year, without any effort. You have defeated creatures of fable and myth. What you do though... really a matter of the person.
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In order to make the Balor do anything you have to make opposed Charisma checks.I have never claimed otherwise. However I did wrongly claim that you do not fail on a natural one. I had forgotten that clause in the spell.
I think there are a good many people who don't fully read the spell.Funny you should say that...
Casting this spell attempts a dangerous act: to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap, which must lie within the spell's range.The -trap- must be within range. The called creature -CANNOT- be within range, as you attempt to lure it from another plane of existence.
Note that this does NOT mean the creature is just an outsider, who HAPPENS to be on the your plane, and you can then lure him into your trap. And we know this because the Planar Binding spells are calling spells.
Calling: a calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on.So YES, we can call a creature from another plane, because this is both RAW and RAI. And YES, said creature appears in the trap we made for it, because that is what it says in the spelldescription. And YES, the creature does get to make a will-save as the spell is cast, but it is on it's own plane when this happens, because...
The target creature is allowed a Will saving throw. If the saving throw succeeds, the creature resists the spell."resist the spell" meaning, the spell does not take effect. Meaning the planar binding spell does not take effect. Meaning the calling does not take effect, and as such the creature is never transported from his plane to begin with.
-Nearyn
You need to go back and actually read the spell from beginning to end.
You do not get to place the creature anywhere you want it. The spell does not allow you to designate a square and he appears there. I have already explained to you how it works.
Once the Balor fails his save, he is "drawn" to the trap. You are getting confused as to spell range and what it means.
The way the spell works.
1st: You call the monster as part of the spell.
2nd: Monster appears where ever the DM decides.
3rd: Get with in spell range of the creature.
4th: Creature gets hit with other part of spell.
5th: Creature makes Will save.
6th: If creature fails save then he is drawn to the circle where he is held.
7th: Bargain with creature.
That is how it works.
You need to go back and actually read the spell from beginning to end.
You do not get to place the creature anywhere you want it. The spell does not allow you to designate a square and he appears there. I have already explained to you how it works.
Once the Balor fails his save, he is "drawn" to the trap. You are getting confused as to spell range and what it means.
The way the spell works.
1st: You call the monster as part of the spell.
2nd: Monster appears where ever the DM decides.
3rd: Get with in spell range of the creature.
4th: Creature gets hit with other part of spell.
5th: Creature makes Will save.
6th: If creature fails save then he is drawn to the circle where he is held.
7th: Bargain with creature.That is how it works.
Take it to the houserules board Shallowsoul, I don't have the patience to make this a prolonged discussion, and we're trying to stay on topic. I've made rules citations, showing you how the spell works, and you've chosen to ignore them. Still, just because I feel it might make a difference, I'll make one more attempt.
Billy the wizard decides to call an outsider to the material plane, using planar binding. He decides he wants to try to summon a Dretch. Billy makes a warding diagram, casts an inward-facing Magic circle of protection from evil on it, and hits the circle with Dimensional Anchor. Then he casts Planar Binding. Danny the Dretch is about to have an unexpected experience.
At this point, I will walk you slowly through the spell's mechanics.
number 1:
Casting this spell attempts a dangerous act: to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap, which must lie within the spell's range. The called creature is held in the trap until it agrees to perform one service in return for its freedom.
From this we learn that we try to "lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap" and that "the trap must lie within the spell's range". Okay, so far so good. Nothing has actually happened yet.
number 2:
To create the trap, you must use a magic circle spell, focused inward. The kind of creature to be bound must be known and stated. If you wish to call a specific individual, you must use that individual's proper name in casting the spell.
Billy knew this already, which is why he did as the spell-description said and made the proper preparations. He also decided to summon a Dretch, so when he begins to cast, he states that he wishes to summon a Dretch. We carry on.
Number 3:
The target creature is allowed a Will saving throw. If the saving throw succeeds, the creature resists the spell. If the saving throw fails, the creature is immediately drawn to the trap (Spell Resistance does not keep it from being called).
Once the casting is complete, Danny the Dretch gets a Will save against the spell. If he succeeds, he resists the spell. THE SPELL. He does not resist being "drawn into the diagram" nor does he resist "the wizard's control". He is resisting the spell. Now as we've previously established:
a calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on.
This means that when Billy the Wizard is casting planar binding, he attempting to call, that is to say, bring Danny the Dretch, from the Abyss to the material plane. He didn't specify he wanted Danny specifically, but Danny was just unlucky enough hear the call. When Danny the Dretch succeeds on his Will save, he resists the spell, meaning it does not take effect. That is what resisting the spell means. He is resisting the calling spell, meaning he does not get called, meaning he is not brought to the material plane, he remains in the Abyss, unaffected by the spell.
However, we assume that Danny the Dretch fails his Will save. I remind you:
If the saving throw fails, the creature is immediately drawn to the trap (Spell Resistance does not keep it from being called).
Meaning that Danny the Dretch is not only called to the material plane, he is also instantly trapped within the Magic Circle against Evil, and the warding diagram. The circle that, I remind you, needed to be within the range of the spell.
Now that Danny is trapped in the circle, he gets to immediately make a charisma check against DC 15 + half Billy's caster level + Billy's charisma modifier + 5 (from the warding diagram).
If Danny succeeds at this check, he breaks free from the magic of the circle. If he fails, he does not break free and is trapped until the following day, where it can attempt the charisma check again, vs the same DC.
In the meantime, however, Billy can bargain with Danny.
What I have written above is RAW, Shallowsoul, and it does -not- support your reading of the spell.
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Shallowsoul: your step 5 actually happens between 1 and 2. If the monster makes the saving throw, it is never brought to the plane in the first place, because that's part of the spell, and the monster resisted the spell entirely.
Answer me this then. Why would it be relevant that when summoning more tham one they can't be more than 30ft apart?
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You need to go back and actually read the spell from beginning to end.
You do not get to place the creature anywhere you want it. The spell does not allow you to designate a square and he appears there. I have already explained to you how it works.
Once the Balor fails his save, he is "drawn" to the trap. You are getting confused as to spell range and what it means.
The way the spell works.
1st: You call the monster as part of the spell.
2nd: Monster appears where ever the DM decides.
3rd: Get with in spell range of the creature.
4th: Creature gets hit with other part of spell.
5th: Creature makes Will save.
6th: If creature fails save then he is drawn to the circle where he is held.
7th: Bargain with creature.That is how it works.
Take it to the houserules board Shallowsoul, I don't have the patience to make this a prolonged discussion, and we're trying to stay on topic. I've made rules citations, showing you how the spell works, and you've chosen to ignore them. Still, just because I feel it might make a difference, I'll make one more attempt.
Billy the wizard decides to call an outsider to the material plane, using planar binding. He decides he wants to try to summon a Dretch. Billy makes a warding diagram, casts an inward-facing Magic circle of protection from evil on it, and hits the circle with Dimensional Anchor. Then he casts Planar Binding. Danny the Dretch is about to have an unexpected experience.
At this point, I will walk you slowly through the spell's mechanics.
number 1:
Casting this spell attempts a dangerous act: to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap, which must lie within the spell's range. The called creature is held in the trap until it agrees to perform one service in return for its freedom.From this we learn that we try to "lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap" and that "the trap must lie within the spell's range". Okay, so...
You haven't posted the RAW I'm afraid.
Like I said, go back and read the spell in it's entirety.
They can't be summoned more than 30ft apart from each other. It means that you can't summon one creature at the range limit in one direction and another in the opposite directions. They arrive in group.
The same goes with the summon monster spells when you summon more than one creature.
@Shallowsoul : I agree with Nearyn with almost everything he said. It works.
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You haven't posted the RAW I'm afraid.
Now you have stopped posting misreadings of the rules and gone to posting flat-out lies. I have posted plenty of quotes directly from the rules, to back up my viewpoint, while you have done nothing of the sort.
I don't care if you geniunely believe your erronious reading of the rules to be true, or if you are simply trolling. Either way I do not have the patience, nor inclination, to continue debate with someone, who ignores evidence in favour of his own, unfounded, unsupported viewpoint. It would be funny if it wasn't annoying.
I am done with you, for now.
Disclaimer: I advice that readers ignore shallowsoul's reading of the spell, for he objectively wrong, and it has been proven via rules citation. This thread is supposed to help the OP with his question, not pursue debate with someone who has no desire to learn.
-Nearyn
EDIT: @Avh & @Ascalaphus: Thank you for your support. It is very much appreciated.
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You haven't posted the RAW I'm afraid.Now you have stopped posting misreadings of the rules and gone to posting flat-out lies. I have posted plenty of quotes directly from the rules, to back up my viewpoint, while you have done nothing of the sort.
I don't care if you geniunely believe your erronious reading of the rules to be true, or if you are simply trolling. Either way I do not have the patience, nor inclination, to continue debate with someone, who ignores evidence in favour of his own, unfounded, unsupported viewpoint. It would be funny if it wasn't annoying.
I am done with you, for now.
Disclaimer: I advice that readers ignore shallowsoul's reading of the spell, for he objectively wrong, and it has been proven via rules citation. This thread is supposed to help the OP with his question, not pursue debate with someone who has no desire to learn.
-Nearyn
1. It's been pretty well established that Shallowsoul takes his own view on a number of rules that falls well outside of the RAW.
2. I find myself in agreement with you on all points.
I built a caster that could gate in CR 25 monsters. Timestop allows me bring in more than one. It was for a level 20 pbp tournament. The GM dropped out so I ended up running it. My caster was not going to lose to a level 20 party that knew they were coming.
@ the OP...If you want to know how the 20th level martial takes on the 20th level caster or lich from an in-world(no game mechanics involved), it is called GM Fiat, or because the author of the story said so. If you involve game mechanics, he will lose that fight if he does not bring help.
Note:This assumes the caster is ran by a competent player.
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summon (level 9, any 1 CR 19 or lower demon 100%) kinda makes binding a balor pointless. Besides a cr 20 demon has lived a longer and tougher existence than your wizard and is probably prepared for this.
Also what spell allows you to bind more than 18 HD? A wish puts the effect in the GMs hands and does not have the bonus options for magic circle/planar binding.
Edit: gate is a concentration spell, this makes it not good for combat.
Also what spell allows you to bind more than 18 HD? A wish puts the effect in the GMs hands and does not have the bonus options for magic circle/planar binding.
You're right for this point, and I forgot to check for HD (I've never used it as a DM or player). However, it works perfectly for a marilith or a planetar for example
I built a caster that could gate in CR 25 monsters. Timestop allows me bring in more than one. It was for a level 20 pbp tournament. The GM dropped out so I ended up running it. My caster was not going to lose to a level 20 party that knew they were coming.
@ the OP...If you want to know how the 20th level martial takes on the 20th level caster or lich from an in-world(no game mechanics involved), it is called GM Fiat, or because the author of the story said so. If you involve game mechanics, he will lose that fight if he does not bring help.
Note:This assumes the caster is ran by a competent player.
Pure martial, like fighter, rogue, monk or barbarian, and I am prone to agree that the caster is going to win by default, even if we are going "Martial seeks out caster, caster is prepared for him" route that inevitably is used when comparing a caster and a martial.
Versus a paladin or ranger, however, I think the chances are slightly less in full on favor of the caster. Because they have their own spells to fall back on, the paladin has high enough saves to resist half the spells coming his way, and both have magic to find and hunt down the caster. Still less than 10% chance of victory for the paladin or ranger though. Unless the caster is evil, then the paladin has a 20-30% success rate.
But again, this is hardly set in stone. Certain types of casters are less effective against certain martial characters. And if we assume that there is no previous knowledge of the fight on the side of the martial or the caster, then it comes down to initiative, really. Any martial worth his dump-stats is going to be able to full attack from the get-go, and do enough damage to bring down a caster. And there is no self-buff that lasts long enough to invalidate the martial anymore.
Assumption and result:
- Caster is prepared to fight martial, martial is not prepared to fight caster (aka default "I <3 wizards" mode): Caster wins, no question about it.
- Caster is not prepared, and the martial is prepared (aka be vewy vewy quwiet, I'm hunting wizzadz" mode): Initative decides, favoring martial.
- Both are unprepared for the exact opponent (aka Arena Mode): Initative if prebuffs are not allowed. Caster if buffs are allowed.
- Martial separated from his party (aka "Cinematic death" mode): Caster, as martial is dependent on others to even the playing field.
summon (level 9, any 1 CR 19 or lower demon 100%) kinda makes binding a balor pointless. Besides a cr 20 demon has lived a longer and tougher existence than your wizard and is probably prepared for this.
Also what spell allows you to bind more than 18 HD? A wish puts the effect in the GMs hands and does not have the bonus options for magic circle/planar binding.
Edit: gate is a concentration spell, this makes it not good for combat.
Duration instantaneous or concentration (up to 1 round/level); see text
Gate is not concentration based when used to control outsiders.
It is however when used for planar travel.
Planar Travel: As a mode of planar travel, a gate spell functions much like a plane shift spell, except that the gate opens precisely at the point you desire (a creation effect). Deities and other beings who rule a planar realm can prevent a gate from opening in their presence or personal demesnes if they so desire. Travelers need not join hands with you—anyone who chooses to step through the portal is transported. A gate cannot be opened to another point on the same plane; the spell works only for interplanar travel.
You may hold the gate open only for a brief time (no more than 1 round per caster level), and you must concentrate on doing so, or else the interplanar connection is severed.
So like I said, Gate is the correct spell to use in combat.
Calling a creature is the last affect of the spell, and has no mention of concentration. You basically pay the creature to work for you depending on what you want it to do.
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Wraith strike, you are talking about gm fiat and ignoring WBL. Wasting a standard action casting a gate spell will just get the wizard killed or the PC to retreat.
The cost to protect a powerful being from other unknown powerful beings for a longer term is beyond an npc or PC.
Lvl 20 wizard" protect me"
Balor "why, your soul is already damed to hell?"
Wizard "I will give you wealth!"
Balor" I could let the fighter kill you and then kill him and have both of your wealth"
The OP did say a party, not a lone fighter.
How am I ignoring a standard action? How is it GM Fiat?
You have already messed up the gate spell once. I am not being snarky but you might want to read the spell again.
I only have to negoiate with some creatures. Mainly those that are unique, or if a call a specific being.
Otherwise if the creature has HD equal to or less than my caster level I just get to control it without negotiating.
Timestop is how I get to call so many of them.
Calling Creatures: The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has a material cost of 10,000 gp in rare incense and offerings. This cost is in addition to any cost that must be paid to the called creatures.
If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual, you may call either a single creature or several creatures. In either case, their total HD cannot exceed twice your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level. A creature with more HD than your caster level can't be controlled.
As you can see calling standard monsters such as balors, and calling a specific monster such as Bill the Balor do not follow the same rules.
edit:I guess calling a specific creature would be GM Fiat, but generic monsters work fine. :)