Pistolero, Myrmidarch, and the banned Spellslinger (scandalous!)

[Nanomd]

So where to start. I've been out of play for a while and am trying to get back into the swing of things after around a year away from Society. With a game upcoming on Saturday, I am looking for advice in the area of character creation. Specifically, I want to play a Gunslinger (1)/ Wizard (Spellslinger 5), Eldritch Knight 6. But alas, the Spellslinger is banned from Society play! What will a poor wretch do, when one of the most thematically pleasing and enjoyable classes in the game is banned from play? Well, luckily not all hope is lost with the Myrmidarch (Magus archetype). And what with the magus having the off-hand free being not only a good idea but essentially required, might as well make the gunslinger bit Pistolero, as to increase my pew pew.

So, this is what it comes down to. I need help making a Myrmidarch Pistolero that works. And not only works, but works well. Not broken, mind you. I don't need broken. But something that has enough tricks up their sleeve that I can sit at a table and enjoy myself in combat, while still being able to RP. I have the First Steps saved from GM'ing them, and will be applying them to this character so it starts at 2nd level.

Also something that's been coming to mind is maybe taking a 1 or 2 level dip into Fighter (Weapon Master), for those extra feats. Extra feats are yummy.

Build so far, 2nd level:

Human Gunslinger (Pistolero) 1/ Magus (Myrmidarch) 1
STR: 10 DEX: 16 (14 + human) CON: 13 INT: 16 WIS: 12 CHA: 10

Human Bonus Feat: Point-Blank Shot
1st Level Feat: Precise Shot

So far so good. Pretty simple, pretty straight forward. After this stuff starts getting a bit muddy. Filthy dirty, in fact. Any advice on what to do after this point would be greatly appreciated. And this point can still be modified, with a good suggestion and sound reasoning behind it.

RANT: Spellslinger:

Seriously though. Rant rant rant. The Spellslinger is a beautiful idea for a character, and fits exactly what I want with this character. Way more so than the Myrmidarch does. It saddens me deeply that it's banned, and for the life of me can't make heads or tails of why it is. All of the non-gunslinger class archetypes that give access to firearms are banned, I understand this much. And while it doesn't upset me that these ones are, it upsets me that the Spellslinger is. I understand completely that this is because I want her to be available, where I don't care so much about the other classes. But still. After seeing >>this<< image in my copy of Ultimate Combat, I fell in love with the idea.

Does anyone know if there is going to be a revising of this at all ever? Please respond to this question in a spoiler, so it doesn't sully the rest of the discussion overly so.

[CWheezy]

Don't take precise shot first, take Rapid Reload instead. If you are going to go to double pistols, you have to take rapid reload for them first as well.

Currently reloading your gun is a standard action, which is bad. Rapid reload makes it a move, and alchem cartridges make it a free.

Fun Fact: The musket master and pistolero archetypes stack, which is pretty cool

Guns are also really bad compared to bows, until you get level 5 in gunslinger and can add your dex to damage, then they become ok.

Also since you are a magus you generally don't worry about spell dcs, so you actually don't need that much int.

Recommended Traits: Magical Knack and Wayang Spell Hunter (snowball)

Also as a note: There aren't many good range touch spells to use for the spellstrike, so you are kind of stuck. Ray of enfeeblement, and snowball are kind of your only options

Spoiler:

There are a lot of banned archetypes, many given without reason because

Also I know how cool the art looks, but the Archetype is horribly bad. FOUR opposing schools?!?

[Jeffrey Fox]

Spoiler:

The reason Spellslinger is banned is because firearms in Golarion come from a region where magic doesn't work. As such firearms and magic haven't been blended in the game world to allow spellslingers.

[Nanomd]

CWheezy wrote:

Don't take precise shot first, take Rapid Reload instead. If you are going to go to double pistols, you have to take rapid reload for them first as well.

Currently reloading your gun is a standard action, which is bad. Rapid reload makes it a move, and alchem cartridges make it a free.

Fun Fact: The musket master and pistolero archetypes stack, which is pretty cool

Guns are also really bad compared to bows, until you get level 5 in gunslinger and can add your dex to damage, then they become ok.

Also since you are a magus you generally don't worry about spell dcs, so you actually don't need that much int.

Recommended Traits: Magical Knack and Wayang Spell Hunter (snowball)

Also as a note: There aren't many good range touch spells to use for the spellstrike, so you are kind of stuck. Ray of enfeeblement, and snowball are kind of your only options

** spoiler omitted **

I was under the impression that you couldn't use two guns at a time and still be able to cast spells, as you need your off hand free for somatic components or some such nonsense, even though it says in the ability that it has nothing to do with somatic components.

Spell Combat:

At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.

Yes yes, I do see the words Melee Weapon in there, but my mind extrapolated it into being the same for a one handed gun. (Also: Musket Master and Pistolero don't stack, I don't think, due to them both modifying the weapon proficiencies and the gunsmith ability.)

[Nanomd]

Jeffrey Fox wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Fun Reading:

I agree that the archetype isn't honestly all that good. Some might even be able to persuade me that mechanically, it's bad. But it isn't the mechanics that make it fun. It's the idea of it, to me. Now, there are ways to min/max the gunslinger spellslinger as best as is possible, and >>this<< might be a good place to read for that. It's not my forum, nor my thread, nor did I have anything to do with the design of the character being described there. But it's a good read, one that I found helpful.

I've played characters that were broken as all get out before. Hellknight Cavalier Paladins in campaigns were there are only CE outsiders and dragons. Synthesist Summoners. Zen Archers(ew). None of them felt as fun as the ones that were of moderate strength but had some sort of personality to them. Not that I'm saying broken characters can't have flavor, but generally they don't have the flavor needed to make them interesting. With a Min/Max'ed character, it's all about the killing, and that isn't what I play RPG's for.

[Finlanderboy]

I thought they were banned because only gun slingers got guns. They banned every gun using non-gunslinger class.

[MrSin]

Finlanderboy wrote:

I thought they were banned because only gun slingers got guns. They banned every gun using non-gunslinger class.

That they did. I can imagine the protest signs for it. "Guns for gunslingers!" Even the trophy hunter archetype for rangers and the musketeer for cavaliers were shut down. The spell slinger archetype has issues of its own though, and guns require grit and the gunslinger abilities to stay in style at later levels. Hope you can find a game that lets you play it of course.

[Kyrie Ebonblade]

Jeffrey Fox wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

That is not quite true Jeffrey.. more like..

Spoiler:

Magic isn't RELIABLE in the Mana Wastes

[Jason Wu]

I for one would love to see the Shieldmarshal from Paths of Prestige opened up.

There's pretty much zero PFS-allowed prestige classes right now that mesh well with gunslingers.

-k

[Arutema]

Jason Wu wrote:

I for one would love to see the Shieldmarshal from Paths of Prestige opened up.

Double-check additional resources, Sheildmarshal is legal.

Additional Resources wrote:

Aldori Swordlord, Bellflower Tiller, Brother of the Seal, Champion of Irori, Dawnflower Dissident, Golden Legionnaire, Green Faith Acolyte, Hellknight Signifier, Knight of Ozem, Lantern Bearer, Magaambyan Arcanist, Mammoth Rider, Prophet of Kalistrade, Riftwarden, Shieldmarshal, Skyseeker, Sleepless Detective, Storm Kindler, Tattooed Mystic, Veiled Illusionist, and Winter Witch are legal for play.

[Jason Wu]

Ah, I know what happened, I got confused by the name change at pfsrd20 last time I checked that list - they call it Grand Marshal.

Yay!

-k

[CWheezy]

Nanomd wrote:

I was under the impression that you couldn't use two guns at a time and still be able to cast spells, as you need your off hand free for somatic components or some such nonsense, even though it says in the ability that it has nothing to do with somatic components.
** spoiler omitted **...

When I say double pistol, I meant a double barreled pistol. Even though it is a -4 per shot, it totally doesn't matter because ha ha touch ac

[Dylos]

If you plan on being a higher spellcaster as a Myrmidarch, you are going to want the Enlarge Spell feat, since Ranged Spellstrike only works with spells which rely on ranged touch attacks, and since the Magus' best spells for spellstrike are touch range, Enlarge Spell is a must, and you'll only need to raise things 1 spell level to enable ranged spell strike.

Honestly, I've thought of a Myrmidarch with a gun before, but every time I think about it, I always come to the same conclusion, an Archer Myrmidarch would be better, if only for one reason, Arcane Archer, and they'd really only need 2 levels in Arcane Archer and then they'd be able to cast almost anything with a bow, either with or without enlarge.

As far as feats go, aside from Enlarge Spell, I would imagine the character would just need the standard ranged feats, though Rapid Reload is a must for any firearm user.

Also, I find the range of the pistol to be a bit limiting for a ranged spell caster, Muskets might almost be better, if not a bow.

Spoiler:

As others have mentioned, due to the rarity of firearms in Golarian, any non Gunslinger archetype which gets access to firearms is banned, this is to keep firearms rare as they should be and not have an option for firearms for nearly every class, though anyone can still take the gunsmithing and proficiency feats.

[ThreeEyedSloth]

Err, actually, Enlarge Spell does not change the range of Touch spells. You would need Reach metamagic to do that. That would move your touch spells to ranged touch.

[CRobledo]

Dylos wrote:

If you plan on being a higher spellcaster as a Myrmidarch, you are going to want the Enlarge Spell feat, since Ranged Spellstrike only works with spells which rely on ranged touch attacks, and since the Magus' best spells for spellstrike are touch range, Enlarge Spell is a must, and you'll only need to raise things 1 spell level to enable ranged spell strike.

Do you mean Reach Spell feat? To make touch spells into close spells?

[Nanomd]

So it looks like some are saying that mechanically, the myrmidarch with a bow is better than a myrmidarch with a gun. I agree with this, that the bow is better. But the question is more, how do we make the gun work as best as possible?

[Rusty Ironpants]

Nanomd wrote:

Yes yes, I do see the words Melee Weapon in there, but my mind extrapolated it into being the same for a one handed gun.

So technically, by RAW I guess, does Spell Combat work with a ranged weapon?

By the text posted I would say no...

[Nanomd]

Rusty Ironpants wrote:

Nanomd wrote:

Yes yes, I do see the words Melee Weapon in there, but my mind extrapolated it into being the same for a one handed gun.

So technically, by RAW I guess, does Spell Combat work with a ranged weapon?

By the text posted I would say no...

It's an ability of the Myrmidarch archetype.

Ranged Spellstrike:

At 4th level, a myrmidarch can use spellstrike to cast a single-target touch attack ranged spell and deliver it through a ranged weapon attack. Even if the spell can normally affect multiple targets, only a single missile, ray, or effect accompanies the attack. At 11th level, a myrmidarch using a multiple-target spell with this ability may deliver one ray or line of effect with each attack when using a full-attack action, up to the maximum allowed by the spell (in the case of ray effects). Any effects not used in the round the spell is cast are lost.

This ability replaces spell recall and improved spell recall.

[Dylos]

CRobledo wrote:

Dylos wrote:

If you plan on being a higher spellcaster as a Myrmidarch, you are going to want the Enlarge Spell feat, since Ranged Spellstrike only works with spells which rely on ranged touch attacks, and since the Magus' best spells for spellstrike are touch range, Enlarge Spell is a must, and you'll only need to raise things 1 spell level to enable ranged spell strike.

Do you mean Reach Spell feat? To make touch spells into close spells?

Ah yes, Reach not Enlarge, I was thinking the exact effect of Reach and saying Enlarge for some reason.

So Reach Spell is a must, as it will allow you to utilize the melee touch attacks with the gun.

And btw, as far as weather or not a Myrmidarch can use spell combat with a ranged weapon, your mileage may vary, as the archetype never clearly says that they can, they get ranged spellstrike yes, but no where in ranged spellstrike does it say that they can use spell combat. Though at level 11 they can attack with multiple target rays as a full-attack action.

[Rusty Ironpants]

Nanomd wrote:

Rusty Ironpants wrote:

Nanomd wrote:

Yes yes, I do see the words Melee Weapon in there, but my mind extrapolated it into being the same for a one handed gun.

So technically, by RAW I guess, does Spell Combat work with a ranged weapon?

By the text posted I would say no...

It's an ability of the Myrmidarch archetype.

** spoiler omitted **

Ah, okay. Thanks! :)