I've seen a couple guides describe the First Worlder archetype as being pretty good. What am I missing? It seems to me that the HD change from d10 to d6 and BAB reduction is a massive cut into the Eidolon's usefulness. (Losing Darkvision is just an minor inconvenience in comparison.) Are the SNA spells really that much better than SM that totally trashing the Eidolon's combat capacity is worth the trade?
I never understood it either either. It seemed like nerfs all around for me.
The gremlins look great fun - especially the luck one with halflings, but I'm also trying to get my head around it. Love the idea, love the gremlins, but the fact the Eidolon is 1/2 BA and 2/3 HP just seems a BIG compromise?!
First worlders are the other master summoner, their SNA ability is not limited by amount of summons in play or even having the eidolon out, and unlike the master summoners eidolon, it doesn't lose hit dice and therefor still gets full evolution points, their summons are also not as susceptible to protection from <alignment> spells.
Then there's the wild caller....
First worlders are the other master summoner, their SNA ability is not limited by amount of summons in play or even having the eidolon out, and unlike the master summoners eidolon, it doesn't lose hit dice and therefor still gets full evolution points, their summons are also not as susceptible to protection from <alignment> spells.
This is the interpretation that makes the First Worlder remotely viable. The basis of the interpretation is "The Summon Nature's Ally ability works as described, not as the Summoner's Summon Monster ability modified as described". Thus, it doesn't "inherit" the restrictions of one summon or one eidolon.
Not only is this interpretation dishonest, it also doesn't make the First Worlder good. Because if Summon Nature's Ally doesn't inherit from Summon Monster, then it has a one round casting time and a duration of 1 round/level.
Either way you slice it, First Worlder is s*+&.
EDIT: Well, maybe it has a casting time of one round. But the duration is 1 round/level.
First worlders are the other master summoner, their SNA ability is not limited by amount of summons in play or even having the eidolon out, and unlike the master summoners eidolon, it doesn't lose hit dice and therefor still gets full evolution points, their summons are also not as susceptible to protection from <alignment> spells.
I have no idea if that's how its supposed to work, but if so the archetype could really benefit from clearly saying "Oh btw, the summon limit and no eidolon out while you're doing this rule doesn't apply." As is it still seems rather ambiguous, though what you're saying would make the most sense for it if it was intended to be more than a joke archetype.
First worlders are the other master summoner, their SNA ability is not limited by amount of summons in play or even having the eidolon out, and unlike the master summoners eidolon, it doesn't lose hit dice and therefor still gets full evolution points, their summons are also not as susceptible to protection from <alignment> spells.This is the interpretation that makes the First Worlder remotely viable. The basis of the interpretation is "The Summon Nature's Ally ability works as described, not as the Summoner's Summon Monster ability modified as described". Thus, it doesn't "inherit" the restrictions of one summon or one eidolon.
Not only is this interpretation dishonest, it also doesn't make the First Worlder good. Because if Summon Nature's Ally doesn't inherit from Summon Monster, then it has a one round casting time and a duration of 1 round/level.
Either way you slice it, First Worlder is s@#+.
EDIT: Well, maybe it has a casting time of one round. But the duration is 1 round/level.
Huh, I didn't think about that, your right, damn.
Another 'possible' pro is being able to benefit from the SNA feats like moonlight summons...but that's still doesn't match up to standard action 1min/lvl summons.
Boo. :(
This is the interpretation that makes the First Worlder remotely viable. The basis of the interpretation is "The Summon Nature's Ally ability works as described, not as the Summoner's Summon Monster ability modified as described". Thus, it doesn't "inherit" the restrictions of one summon or one eidolon.Not only is this interpretation dishonest, it also doesn't make the First Worlder good. Because if Summon Nature's Ally doesn't inherit from Summon Monster, then it has a one round casting time and a duration of 1 round/level.
Either way you slice it, First Worlder is s@#+.
EDIT: Well, maybe it has a casting time of one round. But the duration is 1 round/level.
Huh, I didn't think about that, your right, damn.
Another 'possible' pro is being able to benefit from the SNA feats like moonlight summons...but that's still doesn't match up to standard action 1min/lvl summons.
Boo. :(
I'm looking onto it, and AFAICT, First Worlder gets standard action summoning as well, because all SLAs are standard actions - but that's not something every GM is aware of.
I'm looking onto it, and AFAICT, First Worlder gets standard action summoning as well, because all SLAs are standard actions - but that's not something every GM is aware of.
This is the interpretation that makes the First Worlder remotely viable. The basis of the interpretation is "The Summon Nature's Ally ability works as described, not as the Summoner's Summon Monster ability modified as described". Thus, it doesn't "inherit" the restrictions of one summon or one eidolon.Not only is this interpretation dishonest, it also doesn't make the First Worlder good. Because if Summon Nature's Ally doesn't inherit from Summon Monster, then it has a one round casting time and a duration of 1 round/level.
Either way you slice it, First Worlder is s@#+.
EDIT: Well, maybe it has a casting time of one round. But the duration is 1 round/level.
Huh, I didn't think about that, your right, damn.
Another 'possible' pro is being able to benefit from the SNA feats like moonlight summons...but that's still doesn't match up to standard action 1min/lvl summons.
Boo. :(
That's an interesting notion pupsocket; if it's true, that'd be nice to get some rule support for as I'm currently playing a First Worlder in a PbP game.
It's my interpretation that you take anything that says, "Summon Monster 'x'" and replace it with "Summon Nature's Ally 'x.'"
It is a SLA, so they are cast as a standard action like a normal summoner. It doesn't say anything about removing the restriction of "1 eidolon/1 summon." However, you can cast the spell normally, it'll just take the full round action and they last 1 round per level.
If you use the SLA, your eidolon can't be summoned, and they last 1 minute/level.
What Blapher's said holds true though. If you want a nature based summoner, the Wild-Caller archetype is far better. Gets 10 extra Evolution Points by 20th level.
1/4 per level from Archetype, 1/4 per level from alternate favored class bonus. 2/4, or 1/2, or 10/20.
It's also easier to interpret the summons because it says "replace x with y, otherwise it's the same."
"My eidolon has smaller HD and lower BAB."
First Worlder problems.
hahahah
this made my day
I was thinking of making my next PFS character a First worlder. Mainly because i find the idea of having a "purse unicorn" funny like a chihuahua with a horn.
However, i have noticed that Not everone has a firm grasp of how Archetypes work (based on the boards at least) Id like to avoid table variation.
Starting at 1st level, a first worlder can cast summon nature’s ally a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. At levels where a summoner would gain a more powerful summon monster spell as a spell-like ability, he instead gains the equivalent summon nature’s ally spell (at 19th level, he can use summon nature’s ally IX or gate). When a first worlder gains a summon nature’s ally spell as a spell-like ability, he adds it to his class spell list (he must still select it as a spell known if he wants to cast it as an actual spell).
This ability otherwise replaces the summon monster ability of a normal summoner.
So reading the above, the only time it references the origonal ability by name is when it says 'this otherwise replaces X' So this means by raw its a wholly different ability?. So that
1) it only lasts rounds per level
2)is a full round action per the rules of spell like abilities and
3) does not inferfere with the eidolon being out because it has no language refering to the eidolon?
The Eidolon appears straight forward. as far as its changes go and making my Chihuahacorn will not be difficult.
Summon Pugwampi...most...annoying...creature...EVER!
Seriously, if the group is set up to take advantage of it (ie;everyone has a luck bonus), the Unluck Aura is a nasty debuff. It is like teleport, flight or any of the magic things/spells that you have to take account for in the design of the adventure. Otherwise it can make fights trivial.
"This ability otherwise replaces the summon monster ability of a normal summoner."
I'm reading that as the text highlighted the differences. Otherwise it should be the same as the summoner summon monster sla. So standard action casting, 1 minute / level duration, and no eidolon.
The word "otherwise" is what I key in on. If it just said "This ability replaces..." Then maybe I could see it the other way.
Right and if both the summon natures ally ability. And the eidolon ability had the same wording at the end I'd agree with you.
However
This otherwise works like and replaces the eidolon ability of a normal summoner.
has similar but different wording.
But the "otherwise replaces" confuses the issue.
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Mojorat, I think that I am with bfobar on this one but that you are right, regardless. My first thought was that in all other ways it is the same as the summon monster SLA due to the 'otherwise' phrase. However, from reading the definition of otherwise, it would seem that it literally means that SNA does x and in all other circumstances of summon monster, SNA is replacing it. This would imply a far worse summoning ability on top of an inferior eidolon but with the ability to have summons and eidolons out..,which you could have done with spells anyway but now you can do it with free ones. And from what I recall, the SNA is worse than summon monster. So if this is all true, then man, maybe it is just an NPC class or something. I think the intent was for it to, in all other ways function as summon monster does for a summoner. Maybe I am missunderstanding how otherwise reads.
I personally disagree with the idea that you get full round, round per level duration summons but the raw seems to say...well....otherwise.
;)
Actually in conversation with james jacobs he stated that the duration is still 1min per level and a standard action to summon. I still have that message from him but..... i have been waiting a few weeks now for an offical faq to be posted.... its the holidays so not to worried it will happen eventually. If that is were not true.... I would agree the type is very not worth it.
Could you please post that message to this thread. That makes all the difference in the world as to whether that is a worthless or decent archetype to play.
The reason why it is a decent archetype or not is due to a single change to the summon list- pugwampis.
They have a 20ft unluck aura that is basically AoE no save misfortune hex (as in, reroll all d20 and take the worse result; this affects saves, attacks, skills, etc.). And since they are summons (on a low level list, so you can summon a bunch of them by mid levels), they are far more disposable than the party witch.
Heck, the fact that they go down in 1 hit is practically a feature rather than a flaw. Enemies will chase them down to get rid of the debuff, wasting turns while your casters spam Save or Suck spells and dividing themselves while your martials gang up on them 1 by 1. They are not combatants- they are nodes for an AoE debuff spell that can do thinks like flank and aid other.
Also, the aura has a nice out- grabbing a luck bonus or using animals lets you ignore it. Crafter's fortune is a legitimate way to avoid this problem for days/level (the unluck aura does say 'any sort' of luck bonus)
The reason why it is a decent archetype or not is due to a single change to the summon list- pugwampis.
I'm sure most people are aware of the pugwampis and that it is the only reason to consider the archetype in the first place. However, the action economy and duration as written at the moment are so terrible that you wonder if it is even worth considering. Another very slight drawback is having to wait until 3rd level before the build concept can work.
I'm sure most people are aware of the pugwampis and that it is the only reason to consider the archetype in the first place. However, the action economy and duration as written at the moment are so terrible that you wonder if it is even worth considering. Another very slight drawback is having to wait until 3rd level before the build concept can work.The reason why it is a decent archetype or not is due to a single change to the summon list- pugwampis.
True, but you have 3/4 BAB, light armor, decent enough hd, not entirely terrible weapons (longspear for keep away, mostly), some buffs, and the levels are too low to see just how much your eidolon has been nerfed yet.
Basically, you are still better off than a wizard.
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Also, the aura has a nice out- grabbing a luck bonus or using animals lets you ignore it. Crafter's fortune is a legitimate way to avoid this problem for days/level (the unluck aura does say 'any sort' of luck bonus)
I agree with your assessment of the pugwampis. However, Crafter's Fortune might not prevent the unluck aura effect. It is a one-time luck bonus that you get when your character makes a single Craft check, not a persistent bonus. The Unluck Aura ability is a little ambiguous though.
The better solution is to carry around scrolls of Prayer. Any responsible pugwampi wrangler would keep several of these handy. Someone in the party is bound to be able to cast it.
I will be very happy if the summon SLA for this archetype gets an FAQ.
More discussion on First Worlder in this thread. Lemeres made some great points there too.
and yeah there is the Pug... but honestly i have summoned that one the least so far, but thats likely because clerics rarely cast prayer in PFS from what i have seen. If i had a reliable luck bonus i could give others i would use this one a lot.
Oh yeah, this is definitely not something you just toss into any party. Everyone has to plan to avoid the problems beforehand or you are just messing up your guys too.
Still, there seems like a decent and wide spread number of ways to avoid the problems. Half orcs for anything. Clerics with prayer. Archaeologist bards and Destined bloodline bloodragers are also fantastic (bard for skill monkey and bloodragers for tanks...damn, why is that bloodline to so good?!)
I also like Irorian paladins since they are just immune to this kind of reroll. I know, they are as reviled as first worlder since they are a unarmed focused archetype without flurry or DR bypassing things. I like the idea of taking the oath against fiends to switch your divine bond to armor, and then you just use a regular weapon. Then it is just an archetype that waters down smite in return for flexibility (still on par with other damage boosters though), and it supports light armor use.
Anyway, back to the main point- there are options, and they provide enough of a spread that you can make a decent party without relying on items to bypass unluck.
The problem is there are very few things that let you give a luck bonus to a party (other than prayer). I am not the problem typically. I dont want to get near the pug most of the time, but the i also dont want to mess up the barbarian charging the archer that my pug is giving a bad day to and thats the problem with the pug.
Of course. Pugs are not really appropriate for PFS since there is less chance for coordination of characters. Even in a home game, it gets a bit dicy to convince the other players to somewhow revolve some aspect of their character around your character.
Whether that is worse etiquette than being the master summoner that clogs up every battle with 10+ summoned creatures is...debatable.
I don't see anything in the text that implies that you can use your SNA ability while your eidolon is summoned....where are people getting that from ?
