Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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The podcast was neat no doubt...but I think bugley has a point on it not being exactly the best method for dissemination of information.
As was mentioned in the podcast, there will be follow up blogs to the various topics. We thought this was a neat way to give a sneak peak to the audience in advance of announcing changes on a blog. Apparently, we failed in some people's opinions and will try to do better next time.
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The podcast was neat no doubt...but I think bugley has a point on it not being exactly the best method for dissemination of information.As was mentioned in the podcast, there will be follow up blogs to the various topics. We thought this was a neat way to give a sneak peak to the audience in advance of announcing changes on a blog. Apparently, we failed in some people's opinions and will try to do better next time.
No I don't think you all failed at all. I thought it was quite entertaining actually. I just think he has a point is all.
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@Mike I missed the podcast, but know I can watch it later and it only took me 3 minutes to come to the forums to figure out what I missed. I highly support going with modern methods of communication.
The Decimverate may try to silence us, but there will always be those who put the welfare of their fellow Pathfinders over the contents of a tomb.
::A human man of age far beyond his adventuring prime steps out::
"Names Abrum Darius, or just Abe to my comrades. Would be a tragedy if someone infiltrated the Grand Lodge and messed up their goals."
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I think it was a good idea for something different, but (at least) a fair amount of people probably just prefer reading the news rather than listening to it (and the news is exciting in itself - definitely not unemotional).
Obviously there was a lot of anticipation for this announcement which is getting a few people emotional about it, which probably just goes to show that some of us are quite passionate about PFS - which is pretty cool.
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You can not make everyone happy. You are more likely to hear the bad over the good. If someone is annoyed about the board speculating that is the ignorant person on the boards not realizing it is another ignorant person spouting.
I would be disappointed if you let a few complaints wreck a good idea.
Contributor
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Remember folks, that the Lantern Lodge and the Shadow Lodge will have good story reasons for going away, *and* once they do go, characters who were part of LL/SL will still have their in-game backstories and experiences, and will have something that will be unique to them and *only* them as the campaign moves forward.
Torch is revealed to be a Veiled Master.
Calling it.
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FWIW: I'm not a big fan of how this was released either, but mostly because it wasn't clear what was going on.
In the first post, it says that this announcement will be made in the "Know Direction Podcast", with no link or other indication of what or where this is. (Those were posted later, but not by the people involved in the announcements which makes them much easier to miss if you're skimming a couple hundred post thread.)
Thankfully we are reasonable Internet users, so we fire up our favorite search engines and get a link to an episode list for an audio podcast about gaming. This implies that there will be a new episode posted Wednesday night with the announcements. Sounds good.
However, that's wrong. If you dig into the forums for this podcast (because it's not posted anywhere else on their site) or if you happened to spot the right post at the bottom of the first page of this thread, you find that it's recorded as a Google+ Hangout and that is what was going on tonight. The audio podcast comes later.
The practical upshot: when doing things like this, especially things you don't normally do, never assume anyone knows what you're talking about. Say exactly what's happening and post links to wherever people should go to listen/watch/participate/etc. in the event in that very first post. Edit them in if necessary. You're still going to get complaining that you're not using the tools everyone is used to you using here on the Paizo website (blogs and forum posts) but at least you're trying to minimize surprise.
I'd also recommend having a blog or forum post ready to go that summarizes what you were attempting to announce and put it up right afterwards. If you said you were going to do that I wouldn't have bothered trying to follow along elsewhere. :)
As far as the actual announcements: I think that the wealth changes are likely to make forming tables harder, especially in sessions where they're only going to have a couple tables. That's the bad side of discouraging playing out of Tier. I don't know what the right answer is (especially not this late at night!) but hopefully it'll all work out.
Losing two factions doesn't affect me much. I don't have any characters that are tightly related to any of the ten factions; they provide flavor for the Fame and Prestige point systems but don't seem to have much effect on the adventures or our characters. I do have a Shadow Lodge character in-tier for the closing scenario, so hopefully I'll get to play it with him.
The boon changes for the novels should be interesting. I liked the Gen Con boon where you track down a mentor by making checks over multiple adventures; hopefully this will be a better version of that. If not, well, I didn't buy/win the books I have for the boons. :)
Good luck with the changes!
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FWIW: I'm not a big fan of how this was released either, but mostly because it wasn't clear what was going on.
In the first post, it says that this announcement will be made in the "Know Direction Podcast", with no link or other indication of what or where this is. (Those were posted later, but not by the people involved in the announcements which makes them much easier to miss if you're skimming a couple hundred post thread.)
Thankfully we are reasonable Internet users, so we fire up our favorite search engines and get a link to an episode list for an audio podcast about gaming. This implies that there will be a new episode posted Wednesday night with the announcements. Sounds good.
However, that's wrong. If you dig into the forums for this podcast (because it's not posted anywhere else on their site) or if you happened to spot the right post at the bottom of the first page of this thread, you find that it's recorded as a Google+ Hangout and that is what was going on tonight. The audio podcast comes later.
In other words "It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'."
At the very least, host the audio file on the Paizo site for download straight after the fact. I'm trying to piece together potentially important (I have no idea at present) information by reading many messageboard threads. Another key piece of information that was missing in the original announcement - the changes to be revealed in the podcast will not take effect until insert date here.
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It was a way to field questions immediately and talk "face-to-face" instead of a unemotional blog. Sorry you are disappointed in the method of delivery but we received an overwhelmingly positive response. You are the first to advise it is a complete lack of consideration and shockingly bad judgement. We will try to do better next time with just a plain old blog post and less questions answered with the immediacy we were able to provide.
Firstly, it's great to try new stuff. Don't let one strongly-worded but valid criticism derail future attempts.
Hosting questions via IRC or similar would at least provide a transcript that could be posted for those of us not able to join in the middle of the night on a work day. A blog post might be impersonal and limits questions to the message board posters, but it's even handed. This has segmented the audience into those able to attend and those trying to pick up crumbs of information.
Also, it was recorded and will be placed HERE if you would Ike to watch it for yourself and not rely on second and interpretations.
It might be worth adding this link to the first post of the thread and marking it as not yet active and then updating it again once the audio is actually uploaded. Otherwise people are going to download and listen to the top episode on that list and be disappointed, as it's from 15th April at present.
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Video of the hangout appears to be here on Youtube but I've not watched all of the way through to check.
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Hosting questions via IRC or similar would at least provide a transcript that could be posted for those of us not able to join in the middle of the night on a work day. A blog post might be impersonal and limits questions to the message board posters, but it's even handed. This has segmented the audience into those able to attend and those trying to pick up crumbs of information.
If it helps, I made some notes as the broadcast was going on HERE.
All of the information shared is due to be released in the regular PFS blog entries; from what I gather, the podcast was just a sneak preview. I think the popularity of it (and how quickly the information made it to the forums) may have been underestimated.
Remember folks, that the Lantern Lodge and the Shadow Lodge will have good story reasons for going away, *and* once they do go, characters who were part of LL/SL will still have their in-game backstories and experiences, and will have something that will be unique to them and *only* them as the campaign moves forward.
well except, as far as shadow lodge goes, anyone who liked playing the "watchers who watch the watchers" have no place else to go.
as things stand, none of the groups are "watching" the leaders..
for someone who liked playing the "internal affairs" route.. they got nothing..
heck my Ninja is totally toast.. he joined the pathfinder's because his mother and father where killed (he thought) by pathfinders. He joined the shadow lodge because they where the only ones who dared look inward for corruption.
I should just make all my characters like my Inquisitor, a Big Game hunter..
Sadly I have noticed, the deeper the character background, the less you get out of the campaign.
As far as the actual announcements: I think that the wealth changes are likely to make forming tables harder, especially in sessions where they're only going to have a couple tables. That's the bad side of discouraging playing out of...
For sure.. I will, for one, simply never play up... like ever.
of course that means I will face-roll over adventures (I walk though equal tier adventures with little or no fear at this point, which has nothing to do with items I own, all to do with how I built my character)
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Getting rid of the Lantern Lodge? Shame on you!Screw the Lantern Lodge, what about the SHADOW LODGE?
Dick move, guys.
I moved from Cheliax to Shadow Lodge in season three... Though I often do small favors for the Paracountess still, I've kind of had the "hots" for Torch.
;)
I'm guessing the Paracountess will welcome me back, and I'll continue doing "favors" for my Torch.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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The podcast was neat no doubt...but I think bugley has a point on it not being exactly the best method for dissemination of information.As was mentioned in the podcast, there will be follow up blogs to the various topics. We thought this was a neat way to give a sneak peak to the audience in advance of announcing changes on a blog. Apparently, we failed in some people's opinions and will try to do better next time.
This method has generated more discussion in my area than anything you've ever done before. I thoroughly enjoyed it, and hope you do more of the same in the future.
I do have a question, however (which I'm sure was answered somewhere in these hundreds of posts, but I am feeling lazy and on a time crunch, which is a bad combination for searching for things like this).
My Shadow Lodge character has played through Eyes of the Ten, and is currently firmly rooted at 13 & 2/3 level. When I GM Rivalry's End, I would love for there to be some mechanic that would allow me to get him to 14th level, and apply the Shadow Lodge boon to him. Especially seeing as his character is going to be absolutely on board with whatever happens (he played through almost all the Season 2 stuff, and ended up going over to Torch at the end of Red Mantis' Prey, which was awesome).
Any chance of that?
If it helps, I made some notes as the broadcast was going on HERE.
That was exactly what I was looking for, thanks. Too bad Mark and Mike couldn't have come up with something similar to post on the Paizo site.
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It was a way to field questions immediately and talk "face-to-face" instead of a unemotional blog. Sorry you are disappointed in the method of delivery but we received an overwhelmingly positive response. You are the first to advise it is a complete lack of consideration and shockingly bad judgement. We will try to do better next time with just a plain old blog post and less questions answered with the immediacy we were able to provide.
Also, it was recorded and will be placed HERE if you would Ike to watch it for yourself and not rely on second and interpretations.
I apologize for the tone of my earlier posts -- clearly I've put you on the defensive, which was counter-productive.
Directly engaging with the community was a good idea. Doing it on a different website in a way that was certain to escape the notice of the majority of stakeholders was not a good idea. Failing to subsequently provide a clear, concise, and well-communicated summary of the discussion was also not a good idea.
Please understand: Since season zero I've watched campaign leadership struggle with basic communication. I didn't mean to be an ass -- it's simply frustrating that we're still having this conversation nearly five years on.
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I liked the podcast a lot. I think it would be cool if you could do a short podcast every quarter.
Having said that, I think it would be better for everyone that an official preview blog would be posted the next day, to inform everyone that missed it. I think that would make everyone happy and it would also save you a lot of time fielding common questions.
2 cents
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I liked the podcast a lot. I think it would be cool if you could do a short podcast every quarter.
Having said that, I think it would be better for everyone that an official preview blog would be posted the next day, to inform everyone that missed it. I think that would make everyone happy and it would also save you a lot of time fielding common questions.
2 cents
Agreed. Having a blog post here on Paizo.com with at least a bullet point list of the big changes discussed in the podcast would be a good idea. Not everyone has time to sit and watch the whole podcast, if they even know where to find it, and I agree that a lack of links in a prominent spot like the first post of this thread is a problem. So a lot of people are now getting second hand information and aren't sure of the details. Having it all in writing for everyone to peruse at their leisure just seems like common sense, and something that probably should have been prepared before the podcast so it could be online by now.
I liked the podcast and seeing everyone and the real-time feedback. Gives paizo that personal touch and I'd like to see more done.
Actually finding the podcast, though, that was annoying and I was a bit surprised it wasn't directly linked anywhere obvious (I still don't know if it's directly linked anywhere on paizo). It probably took me about 10 minutes of searching around the world wide web to find it on youtube - only after I had the idea to go directly to youtube to look for it. This was the first podcast I've ever watched live, so I'm not "in the know" about where they are traditionally hosted. I'm sure there were more people who may have wanted to watch it, but couldn't figure out where to go.
Urg, I just did that annoying thing where the complaint is longer than the praise. In actuality, my complaint is rather small compared to how much I liked the podcast format.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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If it helps, I made some notes as the broadcast was going on HERE.That was exactly what I was looking for, thanks. Too bad Mark and Mike couldn't have come up with something similar to post on the Paizo site.
Just because we didnt post it immediately doesn't mean we aren't working on it.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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It was a way to field questions immediately and talk "face-to-face" instead of a unemotional blog. Sorry you are disappointed in the method of delivery but we received an overwhelmingly positive response. You are the first to advise it is a complete lack of consideration and shockingly bad judgement. We will try to do better next time with just a plain old blog post and less questions answered with the immediacy we were able to provide.
Also, it was recorded and will be placed HERE if you would Ike to watch it for yourself and not rely on second and interpretations.
I apologize for the tone of my earlier posts -- clearly I've put you on the defensive, which was counter-productive.
Directly engaging with the community was a good idea. Doing it on a different website in a way that was certain to escape the notice of the majority of stakeholders was not a good idea. Failing to subsequently provide a clear, concise, and well-communicated summary of the discussion was also not a good idea.
Please understand: Since season zero I've watched campaign leadership struggle with basic communication -- it's simply frustrating that we're still having this conversation nearly five years on.
I'm not on the defensive. I was expressing my belief that we will do better in the future. Also, I'm not sure what lack of basic communication you are talking about that is currently present. Mark, John and I respond to posts daily, including weekends. I answer emails, PMs, Skype IMs and Facebook IMs everyday, including weekend and holidays. How do you feel our basic communication is lacking so we can take corrective measures in the future to improve?
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Just because we didnt post it immediately doesn't mean we aren't working on it.
No doubt. But the thing is, you really should have planned to have it posted much immediately. As it stands, the only way to access the information is to watch a 2-hour podcast that most people still don't know exists (one of our VTs posted a link to the podcast on Facebook, which is the first most people have heard of it). Once people know something is up, they're going to come here, and they're going to be disappointed (assuming they haven't already!).
Again, I apologize for the tone of my earlier posts, but if you take a step back I think you'll realize that this was not well-handled.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Just because we didnt post it immediately doesn't mean we aren't working on it.No doubt. But the thing is, you really should have planned to have it posted much immediately. As it stands, the only way to access the information is to watch a 2-hour podcast that most people still don't know exists (one of our VTs posted a link to the podcast on Facebook, which is the first most people have heard of it). Once people know something is up, they're going to come here, and they're going to be disappointed (assuming they haven't already!).
Again, I apologize for the tone of my earlier posts, but if you take a step back I think you'll realize that this was not well-handled.
This was a sneak peak of a series of NORMAL PFS blogs that are going to happen over the next few months. We were waiting to release this info until those blogs. However, we saw an opportunity to give a sneak peak, we thought the fanbase would appreciate it, and we've never tried anything like that before.. I'm starting to think we should consider not having any future sneak peak podcasts and just have a podcast once we make an announcement on a blog. This will keep people from assuming we had bad judgement or a lack of consideration. I also sometimes sneak peak what a Monday blog will be on my public Facebook page on a Friday. I'm thinking I may stop those as well since they fall under the same type of criticism. Cest la vie I guess.
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I'm not on the defensive. I was expressing my belief that we will do better in the future. Also, I'm not sure what lack of basic communication you are talking about that is currently present. Mark, John and I respond to posts daily, including weekends. I answer emails, PMs, Skype IMs and Facebook IMs everyday, including weekend and holidays. How do you feel our basic communication is lacking so we can take corrective measures in the future to improve?
I read some of your response as sarcastic. If that was a misunderstanding, I apologize.
If I were going to announce major changes to the campaign (which is in effect what you've done), here is what I would do:
1. E-mail the stakeholders (campaign participants who have not opted-out via communication settings) with the time and location (URL) of the podcast.
2. Announce the upcoming podcast in the blog, again with a link.
3. Make a sticky post in the PFS forums with the same info.
4. At the conclusion of the Podcat, immediately post a summary of the announcements on the blog. Link to the blog in the sticky message board post.
As it stands, many campaign participants don't even know anything is going on. When they learn, it will often be by word-of-mouth, message board posts, etc. In short, via channels that you do not control. Even now I do not have a clear picture of what was announced because I do wish to watch a 2hr podcast.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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I'm not on the defensive. I was expressing my belief that we will do better in the future. Also, I'm not sure what lack of basic communication you are talking about that is currently present. Mark, John and I respond to posts daily, including weekends. I answer emails, PMs, Skype IMs and Facebook IMs everyday, including weekend and holidays. How do you feel our basic communication is lacking so we can take corrective measures in the future to improve?I read some of your response as sarcastic. If that was a misunderstanding, I apologize.
If I were going to announce major changes to the campaign (which is in effect what you've done), here is what I would do:
1. E-mail the stakeholders (campaign participants who have not opted-out via communication settings) with the time and location (URL) of the podcast.
2. Announce the upcoming podcast in the blog, again with a link.
3. Make a sticky post in the PFS forums with the same info.
4. At the conclusion of the Podcat, immediately post a summary of the announcements on the blog. Link to the blog in the sticky message board post.As it stands, many campaign participants don't even know anything is going on. When they learn, it will often be by word-of-mouth, message board posts, etc. In short, via channels that you do not control. Even now I do not have a clear picture of what was announced because I do wish to watch a 2hr podcast.
No sarcasm. I learned first few months only to speak matter-of-factly and not even joke most of the time.
As to the rest, you're right. We will just wait for the blogs to happen and not do a sneak peak again.
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This was a sneak peak of a series of NORMAL PFS blogs that are going to happen over the next few months. We were waiting to release this info until those blogs. However, we saw an opportunity to give a sneak peak. I'm starting to think we should consider not having any future sneak peak podcasts and just have a podcast once we make an announcement on a blog. Cest la vie I guess.
No one is saying you should delay releasing the info (though the threat of such is a sure-fire way to "win" a message board conversation). With all due respect, that strikes me as a bit of sour grapes -- not that I blame you. I expect that your job feels thankless right about now. What I am saying is that when thousands of people are keenly interested in what you have to say, you have to give more consideration to how, when, and where you say it.
For the record, I enjoy your products and appreciate the work you do in support of them. Part of my initial (overly harsh) response was unfairly driven by interactions with prior campaign leadership, which was unfair.
I'm sorry.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Nope, it is not sour grapes. It is me agreeing with all of your points. And it isn't a threat. For us to send out an email blast to all players means we have to get other departments involved, including editing and IT, and the time it would take to get it on their schedule would defeat the purpose of a sneak peak.
Edit: Again all stated in a matter-of-fact tone and no other anger, frustration, etc...
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I personally really like the podcast and the idea of a sneak peak. There are ways to do it better, but there are *always* places to improve. Please don't nix the sneak peaks and pod-casts after their first time out. The vast majority of those responding liked it. You can't please everyone, boss.
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For what it's worth, I don't think it was mishandled.
While I wouldn't go so far as to call it mishandled, I wouldn't say the handling was ideal, either. I'd put it somewhere in between.
My two complaints, which are similar to what others have said:
1. There should have been a clear and obvious link to find the podcast. Two, actually - one before for people to watch it live, and one after for the recording. As it was, finding the podcast was an issue, for anyone who didn't follow a thread with more than 100 posts in it.
2. There should have been a written list of the big changes prepared in advance and posted to the Paizo blog shortly after the podcast. I know they'll be posting this eventually, but this news is so big that people are all over it right away, so having first hand, official information from Paizo for those who missed the podcast needs to be done sooner rather than later.
That said, I did manage to catch the podcast (wasn't sure if I would), and I enjoyed it. I just think the dissemination of information could have been handled a little more clearly.
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I’m happy to see so much praise for how this went, and understand a certain amount of the criticism. Obviously I’m coming from a position of bias, but I think the interactive element was last night’s biggest success. People who missed it live have the option to watch it at their leisure, or listen to it when the audio releases next week. People who don’t like the format are marginally affected. The information will continue to come out in regular blog posts. I agree that there will be the feeling of being out of the loop or playing catch-up. I know when I miss a convention with a big announcement, it’s not a fun position to be in. This is at least a more inclusive version of that situation, because a narrowcast is far more accessible than any convention.
The biggest shortcoming it seems was communicating where to participate in the live broadcast. I know it was linked at least three times on our Facebook page, Mike linked to it on his Facebook page. That is a bit of a Facebook bias. Mike may have Tweeted, but we didn’t. I know our homepage does not incorporate the youtube channel pretty much at all, which is the reason we are redesigning the site. Perram’s a busy guy, and I’m no web designer, so that will have to happen when it happens.
In the future, when we expect large announcements on an episode, I will set-up a friend of the show to help live Tweet the announcements. I know Alex Greenshields was posting the biggest news on the PathfinderWiki Facebook group. After the interview, I asked Brian Darnell if he could start threads for all the big announcements on the Paizo.com forums, but he said threads had already been started.
I’m glad people enjoyed the episode. It was our largest broadcast audience, with 250 viewers at the peak. We’re more than honoured that Mike, Mark, and John chose us as the venue for the preview announcements. We aim to improve as we go forward in this format, and appreciate all the feedback we’ve gotten.
To be clear, I'm not speaking for Paizo or the PFS team. Just talking about what Know Direction can do on our end.