That's a matter of interpretation.
It's DC 20 to become aware that there is an invisible creature in the area.
You'll notice that under the chart of Invisibility modifiers next to Using Stealth it says "Stealth Check +20" it does not say "+Stealth Check +20". This indicates that Stealth +20 supersedes the DC 20 + modifiers rather than adding to it.
The perception skill says nothing about adding your to a base DC 20, nor does the stealth skill. IMO the DC 20 and other modifiers are meant to cover an invisible creature who is not using Stealth.
When they want you to add something they put a plus sign in front of it. There's no plus sign here, therefore the only conclusion is that they don't want you adding it to the DC.
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I do get more sneaky when I have a magical effect that specifically grants a bonus to stealth checks.
Nothing in the spell description leads you to getting that bonus aside from those numbers. All that happens thematically is that you cannot be seen. You dont get more quiet, less smelly, stop displacing materials, etc.
The result of someone trying to find you should be the same as the him being blind (if not easier since he is able to combine visual sensory information, little though it may be, with his other sensory information).
This is why people are dissgreeing with you (even if you are right by RAW). The stealth bonuses are suspiciously the exact same as the perception dc modifiers.
As I see it,
DC 0 to notice someone...
DC to notice stealthed individual = Stealth check
DC 20 to notice invisible someone +20 to pinpoint
DC 20 + Stealth check to notice invisible stealthed person, +20 to pinpoint, with an additional +20 if stationary.
This is correct (basically) but only if you're including the bonus to stealth checks as part of the stealth check.
If youre using DC 20(invisible) + (SC+20 invisible) +20 to pinpoint +20 if stationary, then I say you're double dipping the invisibility spell.
Nothing is doubled.
It's harder to notice an invisible creature than a visible one. This is because you're invisible. This is not a bonus, this has nothing to do with stealth. It's just because you're invisible and that makes it harder to notice you because you can't be seen.
Completely aside from this, there's a bonus to stealth checks. This applies only to stealth checks. You add this bonus to your stealth check.
To avoid people getting confused between a DC modifier and a bonus (separate things) the invisibility section explicitly tells you the DC to notice an invisible creature. It's a set DC 20 perception check, which can be modified by trying to pinpoint and/or by the table.
Note the +20 for not moving only applies if the table is triggered by the creature moving or making noise. If you're just standing there you only use the base DC 20 (with+20 to pinpoint).
I agree with all except the +20 invisible, and the +20 stealthed and invisible. you're getting +40 from a 2nd level spell that only says you get +20, +40 if stationary.
You are not getting +40. You (as the invisible stealthed creature) only get the bonus to stealth checks. Nothing else applies to you, it only applies to the DC.
Bonus means it modifies your skill check. You add that value to your stealth check, just like if you were wearing a cloak of elvenkind. It's a bonus.
That has nothing to do with any other modifiers for a perception DC. It doesn't have anything to do with the DC to notice, or the modifiers if you're speaking or moving or behind a door.
They're completely independent.
You'll notice that under the chart of Invisibility modifiers next to Using Stealth it says "Stealth Check +20" it does not say "+Stealth Check +20". This indicates that Stealth +20 supersedes the DC 20 + modifiers rather than adding to it.
Addressed upthread.
That modifier can be negative, so putting a plus in front of it would be misleading.
The modifier for In combat or speaking is -20. There's a minus there because it's always negative. You modify the DC by -20.
The modifier for Using Stealth is Stealth check +20. There's not a plus there, because it's not always positive. You modify the DC by Stealth check +20. If "Stealth check +20" is positive, you add it to the DC. If "Stealth check +20" is negative, you subtract it from the DC.
The perception skill says nothing about adding your to a base DC 20, nor does the stealth skill.
No, but the invisibility section, which is more specific, does mention it. It tells you what the DC is (DC 20) and it tells you to modify that DC with Stealth check +20.
IMO the DC 20 and other modifiers are meant to cover an invisible creature who is not using Stealth.
Invisible creature is Using Stealth is explicitly listed in the table of DC modifiers.
Nothing in the spell description leads you to getting that bonus aside from those numbers.
Invisibility: "If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus on its Stealth checks. This bonus is reduced to +20 if the creature is moving."
All that happens thematically is that you cannot be seen. You dont get more quiet, less smelly, stop displacing materials, etc.
If the bonus to stealth checks only refers to sight, then the bonus will never apply in any circumstance because invisible creatures are visually undetectable. You're not silenced, but you are more stealthy.
The result of someone trying to find you should be the same as the him being blind (if not easier since he is able to combine visual sensory information, little though it may be, with his other sensory information).
A fine house rule, which would be totally relevant in another forum.
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OK, the reason there isn't a "+" in front of the stealth modifier is because stealth rolls have their own set of modifiers. So when you make your stealth roll you add, or subtract, your normal stealth modifiers then add the +20 (stealth+20) and add all of that to the DC20. You could potentially have a negative after all of that depending on your modifiers.
I think Grick explained the stealth portion the best in his last post. All of the invisibility modifiers are directly added to the Perception check. The stealth part is passively added to the Perception check because that happens to be the skill used vs stealth. Stealth rolls are made by the stealther; perception rolls are made by the perciever.
Example of what I'm talking about (some of the numbers may not be exact but it's just an example).
Without stealthed factored in:
DC0 + 20(invisible) + 20(pinpoint) = DC40.
Invisible person stealthing rolls their stealth, adds skill bonus, adds or subtracts stealth modifiers then adds 20 to that for being invisible. None of this changes the initial DC40(above) to pinpoint an invisible creature. So you add all of that to the DC40 and that is your final perception DC to pinpoint an invisible stealthed creature.
When they want you to add something they put a plus sign in front of it. There's no plus sign here, therefore the only conclusion is that they don't want you adding it to the DC.On a table full of modifiers, all of the pluses are pretty much understood.
And yet, there are those + signs every single other time, except for when it comes to Stealth.
That modifier can be negative, so putting a plus in front of it would be misleading.
No, it would not be misleading. It would be expecting people to do basic math involving negative numbers.
The DC for becoming aware of an Invisible Creature in 3.5 was Simply their Move Silently check, which you had to beat by 20 to pinpoint.
The idea that, in converting this over from 3.5, the DC to pinpoint went from [Check + 20] to [20 + 20 + Check + 20] is just ridiculous.
And yet, there are those + signs every single other time, except for when it comes to Stealth.
Those things with plus signs are positive, every time, without exception. A stealth check isn't.
The idea that, in converting this over from 3.5, the DC to pinpoint went from [Check + 20] to [20 + 20 + Check + 20] is just ridiculous.
Are you under the impression that this isn't, in fact, what happened? Or are you just complaining about it?
Personally, I think it's far more ridiculous for someone to be easier to notice if he's actually bothering to try to be quiet, than if he wasn't trying to be quiet at all.
To phrase it another way: The difference between noticing a creature that's walking around, and noticing a creature that's walking around using stealth, should be the result of the stealth check. And that's exactly how the rules say it is.
Invisible guy walking at half speed: DC 35.
Invisible guy walking at half speed using stealth: DC 35 + Stealth
"Stealth" includes any bonuses the creature has on stealth checks, including skill ranks, class skill bonus, dexterity modifier, Elixir of Hiding, racial bonuses, size bonuses, and the bonus granted by being invisible.
And don't forget the Perception DC modifier of -20 if the invisible creature is in combat (or speaking).
So, there's your answer. If the rogue drinks a potion of invisibility, draw your sword and declare to your GM that you're "attacking the darkness." Then roll initiative.
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To phrase it another way: The difference between noticing a creature that's walking around, and noticing a creature that's walking around using stealth, should be the result of the stealth check. And that's exactly how
The DC to pinpoint someone invisible lying on the ground unconscious is 40. Because of the arbitrary stealth modifiers in invisibility, if that same (dex 10 with no skill ranks or other positive modifiers, completely unskilled in being stealthy) person is moving stealthily at half speed, the DC is a minimum of 56. Even if he moved at full speed, this unskilled person would have a minimum pinpoint DC of 46.
In the first instance he is not making any noise or moving at all. In the second, he has to actively try to not make noise or disturb anything, and yet, his worst case scenario (where he might have been described as tripping over things if he was visible, as he was an unskilled person who roled a 1) is better than he would be than if he was unconscious. This is entirely due to stealh modifiers that are "coincidentally" identical to the coinciding perception DC modifiers, in a spell that only describes that he becomes unseen, not that he becomes more stealthy.
This makes sense to you?
The DC to pinpoint someone invisible lying on the ground unconscious is 40. Because of the arbitrary stealth modifiers in invisibility, if that same (dex 10 with no skill ranks or other positive modifiers, completely unskilled in being stealthy) person is moving stealthily at half speed, the DC is a minimum of 56.
Correct.
In the first instance he is not making any noise or moving at all. In the second, he has to actively try to not make noise or disturb anything, and yet, his worst case scenario is better than he would be than if he was unconscious.
Correct. Like I said, a creature that is actively trying to be stealthy should be (and is) harder to detect than a creature that isn't.
This is entirely due to stealh modifiers that are "coincidentally" identical to the coinciding perception DC modifiers, in a spell that only describes that he becomes unseen, not that he becomes more stealthy.
The spell does say that you become more stealthy. I quoted it in my last reply to you.
Invisibility: "If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus on its Stealth checks. This bonus is reduced to +20 if the creature is moving."
This makes sense to you?
Yes, it makes sense that a creature that is trying to use stealth is harder to detect than a creature that isn't.
Yes, it makes sense that a magical effect that causes you to be more stealthy actually makes you more stealthy.
Yes, it makes sense that the rules actually mean what they say.
And yet, there are those + signs every single other time, except for when it comes to Stealth.Those things with plus signs are positive, every time, without exception. A stealth check isn't.
And? We all know how to add a negative number.
The idea that, in converting this over from 3.5, the DC to pinpoint went from [Check + 20] to [20 + 20 + Check + 20] is just ridiculous.Are you under the impression that this isn't, in fact, what happened? Or are you just complaining about it?
I'm under the impression that this is almost certainly not what was intended to happen, and that it's somewhat murky be RAW. It takes invisibility from being a good spell to a broken spell.
Personally, I think it's far more ridiculous for someone to be easier to notice if he's actually bothering to try to be quiet, than if he wasn't trying to be quiet at all.
I don't see how.
Character standing still? Stealth + 40 > 40.
Moving half speed? Stealth +20 > 15.
Moving more than half speed? Stealth + 20 - 5 > 10
There's probably a corner case if the character is just awful at stealth, I guess, but in those cases the character is so inept that he probably stepped on a twig or let out a sneeze in a moment of comic ineptitude the instant he actually tried to be stealthy.
Either way it's kind of ridiculous that the flat DCs don't factor in armor/DEX penalties and the like.
To phrase it another way: The difference between noticing a creature that's walking around, and noticing a creature that's walking around using stealth, should be the result of the stealth check. And that's exactly how the rules say it is.
Which I would agree with, if characters weren't getting an extra +40 or +20 from their stealth skill for being invisible on top of the normal modifiers to perception checks for being invisible.
Personally, I think it's far more ridiculous for someone to be easier to notice if he's actually bothering to try to be quiet, than if he wasn't trying to be quiet at all.I don't see how.
You don't see how it works that way using your houserules, or you don't see how it's more ridiculous for it to work that way?
According to the actual rules:
Invisible guy walking at half speed: DC 35.
Invisible guy walking at half speed using stealth: DC 35 + Stealth
("Stealth" including all relevant bonuses.)
According to the houserulers:
Invisible guy walking at half speed: DC 35.
Invisible guy walking at half speed using stealth: DC 20 + Stealth
("Stealth" including all relevant bonuses except the bonus from invisibility which doesn't count for some reason)
Using that house rule, if the invisible person gets less than a 15 on their stealth check, WITHOUT adding in the +20 bonus, it's actually easier to notice them.
That's not a dead rat, or someone unconscious, it's the exact same situation with the only difference being that the invisible creature is trying to be stealthy, rather than not trying to be stealthy at all.
To phrase it another way: The difference between noticing a creature that's walking around, and noticing a creature that's walking around using stealth, should be the result of the stealth check. And that's exactly how the rules say it is.Which I would agree with, if characters weren't getting an extra +40 or +20 from their stealth skill for being invisible on top of the normal modifiers to perception checks for being invisible.
They get the bonus because they're under an effect which specifically grants them that bonus. It's not extra, it's the only bonus involved. The DC to notice someone is not a bonus, and it doesn't apply to the invisible creature, and it has nothing at all to do with stealth.
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According to the houserulers:
Invisible guy walking at half speed: DC 35.
Invisible guy walking at half speed using stealth: DC 20 + Stealth
("Stealth" including all relevant bonuses except the bonus from invisibility which doesn't count for some reason)
You forgot to add the +20 (to pinpoint) and the -5 (walking half speed) modifiers in the second one, which would make it, surprisingly enough, DC 35 + Stealth.
Grick, what about this idea?
Not all creatures use invisibility to become invisible, which is why there is a heading in the Special Ability section to deal specifically with invisible creatures. You say that invisibility gives you the invisible condition, and also gives +20/+40 to stealth. We're saying that invisibility gives you the invisible condition, and also gives more descriptive text so that the player doesn't just read "you gain the invisible condition. Read the heading in the Special Ability section for all of the detail on what that means in different circumstances".
Edit:
I'm still trying to figure out the idea that purely attempting to use stealth while standing still gives:
80 + stealth = 20 (to notice) + 20 (pinpoint) + 20 (standing still) + stealth check + 20 (using stealth)
compared to just standing still giving:
60 = 20 (notice) + 20 (pinpoint) + 20 (standing still).
I haven't even added in the Grick's interpretation of Stealth gaining +40 when standing still! That would make pinpointing the stealther standing still require a 120 + stealth perception check!
I'm now of the opinion that the base DC of "20" (to notice) changes to "20 + Stealth" (to notice), with the other modifiers working off that. In this way, someone stealthing will always be above the person who isn't stealthing (barring a negative net roll), but there aren't these arbitrary +20/+40/+60 modifiers coming out of nowhere, in addition to the modifiers already in the table.
My opinion is that the Stealth Check +20 (for being invisible) is intended to replace the base DC 20 to become aware of the presence of an invisible rather than modifying it.
Stealth + 20 + Mods is going to be higher than 20 + Mods.
For the sake of simplicity I also think the usual rules for Stealth should supersede the movement penalties for being invisible as well (IE, you don't take a -5 on a stealth check unless you are moving more than half your speed), but that's a house rule.
As I said, in 3.5 the DC to notice an Invisible creature was Move Silently Vs Perception, no bonuses at all. To Pinpoint was 20 Higher than that.
A 3.5 Invisible who got a 10 on her move silently check while moving at half speed was DC 30 to pinpoint.
In PF, under my interpretation with a 10 Stealth Check they would be a DC 45 to pinpoint.
Under the interpretation being championed here with a 10 on the stealth check (as I understand it DC 20 + Stealth [10] + 20 -5 +20 to pinpoint) it's a DC 65.
My assumptions are that there's
1. A reason that there's no + in front of Stealth on the chart
2. a reason that the bonuses to Stealth provided by invisibility perfectly match the base DCs for noticing an invisible creature.
Which lead me to believe that Stealth + 20 is not supposed to be added to a base 20 by RAW or RAI.
When invisible, you get a +20 bonus to Stealth (which lines up with how it is stated in the spell. This is explicitely stated in the modifier table as "Stealth check + 20" (which is treated as a modifier to the base DC), and correlates to what happens with the spell, not added to.
Correct.
I've been saying all along that when the modifier table says "Stealth +20" that specific +20 is the bonus to stealth checks from being invisible. (though, in the post directly above yours, I accidentally said "notice them" instead of "pinpoint them")
And, as you say, the result of this stealth check is then a modifier to the base DC.
The DC to notice is 20.
The DC to notice a creature moving at half speed is 15 (DC 20 -5)
The DC to notice a creature moving at half speed using stealth is 15+S where S is the result of his stealth check (DC 20 -5 +S)
That stealth check has a +20 bonus from being invisible. That's why the table says "Stealth check +20".
That bonus applies to your stealth check. The total end result of your stealth check involves a d20, your dex modifier, and any applicable bonuses, like those from equipment, spells, race, class, etc.
So if your dex is 10, with no ranks, no armor, no other bonuses other than invisibility, and you roll a 1, your stealth check is 21. You modify the DC to notice an invisible creature with the result of that stealth check. Using our example above, that means DC 36.
DC 20
-5 moving half speed
+21 Stealth check
Total modified DC 36.
If it makes it more clear, you could separate out the stealth check from the bonus to stealth checks like this:
DC 20
-5 moving half speed
+1 stealth check
+20 bonus to stealth checks
Total modified DC 36.
If you want to pinpoint, not just notice, you further modify that DC by +20, resulting in a DC 56 perception check to pinpoint the square.
My opinion is that the Stealth Check +20 (for being invisible) is intended to replace the base DC 20 to become aware of the presence of an invisible rather than modifying it.
It's explicitly stated. It's listed in the table of modifiers that can be applied to the DC. It is a modifier that can be applied to the DC.
In PF, under my interpretation with a 10 Stealth Check they would be a DC 45 to pinpoint.
This conflicts with your example here in which a 10 on the stealth check resulted in DC 30 to pinpoint.
I'm still trying to figure out the idea that purely attempting to use stealth while standing still ...
This is a fairly major sidetrack, but:
How are you using stealth without moving?
If you're not moving, nor engaged in a noisy activity, why are you applying the table of modifiers?
I'm now of the opinion that the base DC of "20" (to notice) changes to "20 + Stealth" (to notice), with the other modifiers working off that.
The rules do not support that position.
Stealth check +20 is a modifier that is applied to the DC to notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet when the Invisible creature is Using Stealth.
We know this is true because the rules tell you that "A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check."
So when the rules further say "There are a number of modifiers that can be applied to this DC if the invisible creature is moving or engaged in a noisy activity."
"this DC" is clearly referring to the only DC mentioned in the section, the DC to notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet.
And one of those modifiers is triggered when "Invisible creature is..." "Using Stealth".
That modifier is "Stealth check +20".
In this way, someone stealthing will always be above the person who isn't stealthing (barring a negative net roll), but there aren't these arbitrary +20/+40/+60 modifiers coming out of nowhere, in addition to the modifiers already in the table.
It's not coming out of nowhere. It's coming from the table. Every single thing is already in the table, except for the base DC (which is DC 20) and the modifier to pinpoint, rather than notice. Both of those are given in the paragraph directly above that table.
For those saying you double up on the +20 invisibility modifier, I just don't believe that is the intent at all.
For those saying you double up on the +20 invisibility modifier, I just don't believe that is the intent at all.
Fortunately, nobody is saying that.
There's plenty of people saying people are saying that, but it's not actually being said.
It's explicitly stated. It's listed in the table of modifiers that can be applied to the DC. It is a modifier that can be applied to the DC.
It's explicit that when using Stealth while invisible you add +20 to the result of your stealth check, as that's what it says.
This conflicts with your example here in which a 10 on the stealth check resulted in DC 30 to pinpoint.
Yes, I was in error there. I was thinking more in terms of 3.5 move silently Vs Listen. I believe that I now have the proper handle on the rule for PF.
For those saying you double up on the +20 invisibility modifier, I just don't believe that is the intent at all.Fortunately, nobody is saying that.
There's plenty of people saying people are saying that, but it's not actually being said.
Okay, can you please give me some examples of how you apply the rule?
Let's assume a character with 0 DEX MOD and no investment in the Stealth skill who always rolls a 10 on their Stealth check.
This character is standing still?
This character is moving less than half speed?
The character is moving at greater than half speed?
What is the DC to become aware, what is the DC to pinpoint?
Just for fun, lets say that the developers made a mistake when writing the invisibility rules, and they really intended it to work the way some of you are saying. DCs are bonuses, modifiers don't stack, cats and dogs, etc.
How would you re-write the relevant rules so they reflect what you believe the intent of the writer actually was?
Oh, well...that's good then.
Just for fun, lets say that the developers made a mistake when writing the invisibility rules, and they really intended it to work the way some of you are saying. DCs are bonuses, modifiers don't stack, cats and dogs, etc.
How would you re-write the relevant rules so they reflect what you believe the intent of the writer actually was?
The Perception DC to notice the presence of an invisible creature increases by 20. The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack. It's practically impossible (An additional +20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check.
ETA: Remove the Using Stealth line from the chart.
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Just for fun, lets say that the developers made a mistake when writing the invisibility rules, and they really intended it to work the way some of you are saying. DCs are bonuses, modifiers don't stack, cats and dogs, etc.
How would you re-write the relevant rules so they reflect what you believe the intent of the writer actually was?
Clear up that the text in the description of invisibility to make it analogous to that in the invisibility Special Ability section (so that invisbility as a spell doesn't seem to confer more benefits than just invisibility as a condition).
Make it clear that the base DC to notice is "20", and all modifiers are based off that.Make it clear that when using stealth, the base DC to notice changes from "20" to "20 + stealth", or just make it an actual modifier of "+ stealth check" and keep the base DC to notice at "20".
Done.
If it were done as you intended it, I don't see why they didn't use "+20 + stealth check" or "+ stealth check + 20". It's not like the target audience isn't expected to know how to add a negative numbers to a positive number.
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I'm still trying to figure out the idea that purely attempting to use stealth while standing still ...This is a fairly major sidetrack, but:
How are you using stealth without moving?
If you're not moving, nor engaged in a noisy activity, why are you applying the table of modifiers?
If you are hiding in a hole, and I am trying to find you, would the GM not use a Perception vs. Stealth opposed skill check? Does the situation change if you are invisible?
It's not coming out of nowhere. It's coming from the table. Every single thing is already in the table, except for the base DC (which is DC 20) and the modifier to pinpoint, rather than notice. Both of those are given in the paragraph directly above that table.
For some reason, I understood that you were saying that invisibility directly modified your stealth check, and as such, the caster with invisibility gets an additional +20 (+40 if stationary) factored to his stealth check before even going to the modifier table.
Clear up that the text in the description of invisibility to make it analogous to that in the invisibility Special Ability section (so that invisbility as a spell doesn't seem to confer more benefits than just invisibility as a condition).
Make it clear that the base DC to notice is "20", and all modifiers are based off that.
Make it clear that when using stealth, the base DC to notice changes from "20" to "20 + stealth", or just make it an actual modifier of "+ stealth check" and keep the base DC to notice at "20".
Done.
The Perception DC to notice the presence of an invisible creature increases by 20.
It sounds like both of you feel the bonus to stealth checks should effectively be removed.
So, for a proposed method of doing this:
A) Remove the "+20" from the stealth entry on the invisibility table
B) Remove the bonus listed under stealth
C) Remove the bonus listed under the invisibility spell, perhaps replacing it with a mention of the invisibility section
Would that make things work the way you think it should?
A ninja who uses the Vanishing Trick ninja trick gets to add 20 to his stealth check if he is stationary.
What makes you think so?
Vanishing Trick (Su): "As a swift action, the ninja can disappear for 1 round per level. This ability functions as invisibility. Using this ability uses up 1 ki point."
Clear up that the text in the description of invisibility to make it analogous to that in the invisibility Special Ability section (so that invisbility as a spell doesn't seem to confer more benefits than just invisibility as a condition).
Make it clear that the base DC to notice is "20", and all modifiers are based off that.
Make it clear that when using stealth, the base DC to notice changes from "20" to "20 + stealth", or just make it an actual modifier of "+ stealth check" and keep the base DC to notice at "20".
Done.The Perception DC to notice the presence of an invisible creature increases by 20.It sounds like both of you feel the bonus to stealth checks should effectively be removed.
So, for a proposed method of doing this:
A) Remove the "+20" from the stealth entry on the invisibility table
B) Remove the bonus listed under stealth
C) Remove the bonus listed under the invisibility spell, perhaps replacing it with a mention of the invisibility sectionWould that make things work the way you think it should?
IF this would help prevent people from getting confused by their repeating the same basic thing over and over again in each section so people don't have to cross reference 4 different sections of the book any time someone is invisible, yes.
The DC to notice someone is 0. Add a +20 (+40 if not moving) mod if they are invisible. If they are using stealth the result of their stealth check replaces the 0, the +20 mod for being invisible does not apply twice. To pinpoint an invisible person you must beat this DC by 20.
This is how stealth/invisibility interact in my reading of the rules, it's already considerably better for the invisible person than invisibility Vs Move Silently in 3.5, stacking extra +20s on top of this because the writers keep repeating themselves is not what was intended.
...the +20 mod for being invisible does not apply twice. To pinpoint an invisible person you must beat this DC by 20.
This sounds to me like a contradiction. If you add +20 to the DC for invisibility, then must beat the DC by 20, have you not applied the modifier twice?
Meeting the DC is sufficient to get a hunch that someone or something is in the room with you. You cast see invisibility and find out if your hunch is right.
Beating the DC by 20 means you've pinpointed the square and now you cast glitterdust so your entire party can see the guy.
IF this would help prevent people from getting confused by their repeating the same basic thing over and over again in each section so people don't have to cross reference 4 different sections of the book any time someone is invisible, yes.
People currently don't have to reference any section except for invisibility in the glossary, so that's not the problem.
The problem is people who think the DC and the bonus to stealth checks are (or should be) the same thing.
Basically, you folks feel the DC is 20 points too high any time a creature uses stealth. The easiest way to change that is to just remove the bonus to stealth.
The DC to notice someone is 0. Add a +20 (+40 if not moving) mod if they are invisible. If they are using stealth the result of their stealth check replaces the 0, the +20 mod for being invisible does not apply twice. To pinpoint an invisible person you must beat this DC by 20.
This is how stealth/invisibility interact in my reading of the rules
You're reading them wrong.
First, the DC to notice an invisible creature is 20. It says so explicitly.
Second, even if you want to randomly decide the DC is 0 with a +20 modifier, that modifier is not a bonus to stealth checks. It has nothing to do with stealth at all. It applies even if a creature is not using stealth. Which means the bonus to stealth checks will still apply if you make a stealth check, and the DC will still be 20 higher than you want.
IF this would help prevent people from getting confused by their repeating the same basic thing over and over again in each section so people don't have to cross reference 4 different sections of the book any time someone is invisible, yes.People currently don't have to reference any section except for invisibility in the glossary, so that's not the problem.
The problem is people who think the DC and the bonus to stealth checks are (or should be) the same thing.
Basically, you folks feel the DC is 20 points too high any time a creature uses stealth. The easiest way to change that is to just remove the bonus to stealth.
You're reading them wrong.The DC to notice someone is 0. Add a +20 (+40 if not moving) mod if they are invisible. If they are using stealth the result of their stealth check replaces the 0, the +20 mod for being invisible does not apply twice. To pinpoint an invisible person you must beat this DC by 20.
This is how stealth/invisibility interact in my reading of the rules
Obviously I disagree with your assessment.
First, the DC to notice an invisible creature is 20. It says so explicitly.
No, it explicitly says under the perception skill that the DC to notice a visible creature is 0 and you add +20 if the creature is invisible.
However since it says you add +20 to the DC under Perception and the Invisibility entry doesn't come out and tell you that they're just doing the math for you, I guess we should just add this to the stacking 20s.
The DC to notice an invisible Creature now starts at 20 + 20 = 40, if the creature uses stealth they get another 20, so just noticing an invisible creature is a DC 60 + Stealth check, 80 + Stealth to pinpoint.
First, the DC to notice an invisible creature is 20. It says so explicitly.No, it explicitly says under the perception skill that the DC to notice a visible creature is 0 and you add +20 if the creature is invisible.
Even if you use that method to find the DC, the +20 you added is not a bonus to stealth checks.
In order to not be factually wrong about this, you need to show where in the rules it says that either:
A) The DC modifier under perception is a bonus to stealth checks
or
B) There is no bonus to stealth checks
If part A was actually true, then that modifier would only apply when using stealth, which is clearly not the case.
If part B was actually true, then three sections of the core rulebook would be in error and need to be changed.
A bonus to perception and a bonus to stealth are, effectively, the same thing as the purpose of a Stealth Check is to help set the Perception DC.
But I'll concede that you are probably correct by a reading of RAW. Though I still do not believe that this could possibly be the intent.
The rules are indeed poorly written and need to be changed.
By slapping everything that was only a reference to another section into a chart or slapping a DC in front of something that was a reference to another skill, it's now more difficult to use all your senses to become aware of an invisible creature in PF than it was for a deaf character with no sense of smell to SEE such a creature in 3.5. That's kind of amazing.
A bonus to perception and a bonus to stealth are, effectively, the same thing as the purpose of a Stealth Check is to help set the Perception DC.
Those are opposite.
You probably mean a negative modifier to a perception DC and a bonus to stealth checks both make it more difficult to notice the creature.
Though I still do not believe that this could possibly be the intent.
To be clear:
You think the intent is that invisibility is not supposed to grant a bonus to stealth checks?
Or you think the difference in noticing a visible creature vs noticing an invisible one only exists when the invisible creature is using stealth?
By slapping everything that was only a reference to another section into a chart or slapping a DC in front of something that was a reference to another skill, it's now more difficult to use all your senses to become aware of an invisible creature in PF than it was for a deaf character with no sense of smell to SEE such a creature in 3.5.
Not really.
In PFRPG, it's DC 20.
In 3.5, it's also DC 20 (or DC 30 if the creature is holding still).
You probably mean that it's more difficult in PFRPG to notice an invisible creature that is using stealth than it was in 3.5 to hear an invisible creature that is moving silently. Which is true.
Here's the crazy thing: In 3.5, invisibility granted you a bonus to hide checks. Noticing an invisible creature never interacts with a hide check, it's Spot vs DC, or Listen vs Move Silently.
So why does it grant a bonus on hide checks?
"Since some creatures can detect or even see invisible creatures, it is helpful to be able to hide even when invisible."
Aha. So get this: In 3.5, invisibility granted you a bonus on hide checks. This would apply to a hide check made against a creature that can see invisibility.
I'll repeat that: Invisibility gives you a bonus to checks that applies even if the other creature can see invisibility.
Kind of a strange parallel to PFRPG invisibility granting you a bonus to stealth checks that applies even if the creature trying to find you is in complete and total darkness.
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You think the intent is that invisibility is not supposed to grant a bonus to stealth checks?
Just to make it clear for my opinion: No, I do not believe the intent is for there to be a bonus to stealth aside from the standard bonus to being invisible (even when not stealthing). I believe the modifiers stated in the stealth section and the invisibility description are for quick reference for the player.
"Since some creatures can detect or even see invisible creatures, it is helpful to be able to hide even when invisible."
That statement is off the wall. How can you use invisibility to hide from someone with see invisibility in any way that's different from hiding from someone without it while you aren't invisible?
I don't even see the section where that statement exists, or any section where Hide is included with invisibility.
No, I do not believe the intent is for there to be a bonus to stealth aside from the standard bonus to being invisible (even when not stealthing).
By standard bonus do you mean the benefit of being invisible? (IE: being visually undetectable, rather than a numerical value that is added to a check or statistical score)
The standard bonus being rising the DC 0 to notice to DC 20 to notice, along with all the other modifiers for invisibility that you get without stealth being taken into account.
That's not a bonus. It doesn't even exist, since you already have a DC 20 check to notice an invisible creature. And, as I've said over and over now, even if you did apply a +20 modifier to the DC 0 to notice a visible creature, that's not a bonus, and it has nothing to do with stealth.
"Since some creatures can detect or even see invisible creatures, it is helpful to be able to hide even when invisible."That statement is off the wall. How can you use invisibility to hide from someone with see invisibility in any way that's different from hiding from someone without it while you aren't invisible?
By being under a (usually magical) effect that grants you a bonus to hide checks.
I don't even see the section where that statement exists, or any section where Hide is included with invisibility.
3.5 Hide: "If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Hide checks if you’re moving."
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This is how we run it at my table:
There are no "stealth checks". There are no "invisibility checks". There are "percepton checks".
Stealth and invisibility modify the DC for the perception check. Presumably if you are making a perception check the intended target is trying not to be perceived, and the target sets the base DC with stealth. If the target is clearly not trying to be stealthy (e.g. Unconscious or otherwise sitting there like a bump on a log), the base DC is zero.
If you pass the perception check, you see them.
Now, if the target is invisible, increase the DC by +20 and further modifying the DC as follows:
+20 --> Not moving
+0 --> Moving less than half-movement
-5 --> Moving more than half but not full movement
-10 --> Full movement
-20 --> Charging or running (effectively canceling the initial bonus for invisibility)
+1 --> Per 10 feet of distance between target and person "perceiving"
The DM may also add other mods for talking, casting, crowds of people, cover, etc.
If you pass the perception check, you know someone is there (the whole "hunch" thing), but as they are invisible you do not see them and do not know what square they are in. If you passed the DC by 20 or more, you have them "pin pointed" and know the square that they are in.
At this point, you can attack the square or attack the target. If you attack the target, it has total concealment.
If the target moves, you must make another perception check with the applicable modifications as outlined above.
We believe this method takes into account the RAW in the CRB for stealth and invisibility with a few assumptions of the designers intent where the rules use different terminology.
Edit for typos.
Presumably if you are making a perception check the intended target is trying not to be perceived, and the target sets the base DC with stealth.
When the invisible creature makes this stealth check, do they get the +20 (or +40) bonus on the stealth check from invisibility?
If so, you've almost got the correct rules there. (Other than some weirdness with the movement modifier)
If not, why not?
Are they taking the -5 penalty to stealth checks if they're moving at greater than half but less than normal speed, or is that penalty somehow the same as the DC modifier you listed?
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Presumably if you are making a perception check the intended target is trying not to be perceived, and the target sets the base DC with stealth.When the invisible creature makes this stealth check, do they get the +20 (or +40) bonus on the stealth check from invisibility?
If so, you've almost got the correct rules there. (Other than some weirdness with the movement modifier)
If not, why not?
Are they taking the -5 penalty to stealth checks if they're moving at greater than half but less than normal speed, or is that penalty somehow the same as the DC modifier you listed?
The fact that they are invisible gives them +20 to the DC.
The movement modifier is right out of CRB on page 563 and are applied independently of invisibility. I was not clear on that. We have the correct rules as we read and understand them. You may have a different reading. Until they clarify them, we'll have to disagree.