Invisibility fun.


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Has there been a definitive definition of how invisibility works by the paizo folks?

I know there are conflicting opinions on the boards. Here's how I think it works.

"A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check."

This means if you walk into a room and an invisible creature is moving around in the room its a DC 20 to think "hmm there's something weird going on here" and this is a roll that maybe should be made behind the DM screen.

Now once you have determined that there is something in the room (say a zombie that some wizard has made invisible then tasked it to walk in a circle)and it is not using stealth you must pinpoint it. This is a perception check that the player makes.

"It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check."

Since it is not using stealth to try and hide, the Dc to pinpoint it is 0, +20 for being invisible, making the DC 20

However none of this has anything to do with a creature making himself invisible and then using stealth during combat. If i watch a rogue drink a potion and then disappear I don't need a "hunch" that something weird is going on. The DC to find the rogue is now his stealth check +20, he gains another +20 if he doesn't move.

Example time!

Round 1: Rogue drinks a potion of invisibility uses stealth and doesn't move. DC to pinpoint him is his Stealth check +40.

Round 2: Rogue using stealth(still invisible)now walks across room. Dc to pinpoint him Stealth check +20.

There are other mitigating circumstance based off the the "invisible creature is" table. here's one.

Round 3: Rogue using stealth (still invisible) walks across room and attacks someone. Dc to pinpoint is just his stealth check. he has +20 for being invisible and a -20 for being in combat.

Thoughts?


wargod wrote:
Has there been a definitive definition of how invisibility works by the paizo folks?

There's a section on Invisibility in the CRB glossary, which correlates with the entries under Perception and Stealth. There's also the Invisible condition, and the Invisibility spell.

wargod wrote:

"A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check."

This means if you walk into a room and an invisible creature is moving around in the room its a DC 20 to think "hmm there's something weird going on here" and this is a roll that maybe should be made behind the DM screen.

Since the invisible creature is moving, that activates the table under invisibility. If the creature is moving at full speed, that applies a -10 modifier, so the total DC to notice the walking zombie is 10.

wargod wrote:

"It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check."

Since it is not using stealth to try and hide, the Dc to pinpoint it is 0, +20 for being invisible, making the DC 20

That says +20 DC, not DC 20. It's a modification of the DC to notice the presence of an active invisible creature.

So it's DC 20 to notice it's there (like you said), but +20 to pinpoint it. So if the zombie is still moving at full speed, it's a total DC 30 to pinpoint it's location. (Base DC 20, +20 to pinpoint, -10 moving full speed)

wargod wrote:
However none of this has anything to do with a creature making himself invisible and then using stealth during combat. If i watch a rogue drink a potion and then disappear I don't need a "hunch" that something weird is going on. The DC to find the rogue is now his stealth check +20, he gains another +20 if he doesn't move.

More stuff from the table. If they're in combat, apply the -20. If the invisible creature is using stealth, apply the stealth check, and be sure to include the +20 bonus to that stealth check for being invisible.

wargod wrote:
Round 1: Rogue drinks a potion of invisibility uses stealth and doesn't move. DC to pinpoint him is his Stealth check +40.

DC 20 to notice, +20 to pinpoint, +stealth check+20. That's assuming he's not actually in combat, and he's somehow using stealth without moving.

So if his normal stealth modifier is +8, and he rolls a 6 on the d20, his stealth check is 34 (8 mod +6 on die +20 from invis) which results in a total perception DC of 74, assuming the person perceiving is less than 10' from the invisible rogue.


I appreciate your oppinion Grick, however I fundamentally disagree with you.

If I just watched someone drink a potion and the turn invisible, I dont need to notice them I know he's there I just cant see him anymore, I dont need to rely on hunches
Furthermore, I think you are adding the +20 twice. The +20 in the text is the same +20 in the table for "stealth +20".


wargod wrote:

I appreciate your oppinion Grick, however I fundamentally disagree with you.

If I just watched someone drink a potion and the turn invisible, I dont need to notice them I know he's there I just cant see him anymore, I dont need to rely on hunches
Furthermore, I think you are adding the +20 twice. The +20 in the text is the same +20 in the table for "stealth +20".

You can't see him, but you don't need to because you know what square he's in. Until he moves at least then stealth applies as normal.


wargod wrote:
If I just watched someone drink a potion and the turn invisible, I dont need to notice them I know he's there I just cant see him anymore, I dont need to rely on hunches

That's fine, you can assume he's still in that same square.

wargod wrote:
Furthermore, I think you are adding the +20 twice. The +20 in the text is the same +20 in the table for "stealth +20".

Which +20 are you talking about?

When the invisibility modifier table says "Stealth check +20" that's referring to the bonus you get to stealth checks for being invisible. That only applies when you're making a stealth check.

The DC to notice an invisible creature is 20. That has nothing to do with any actions the invisible creature is taking. Just a base DC 20.

To pinpoint, there's +20 modifier to that DC. This means, to pinpoint an invisible creature that isn't moving, and isn't using stealth, and isn't in combat, requires a DC 40 perception check.

Now, in the exact same circumstances, the creature uses stealth. The result of that stealth check is added to the DC, since the table says so. The table even reminds you that there's a +20 bonus to stealth checks for being invisible.

That bonus to stealth checks is a bonus that is applied to the stealth check of the invisible creature. It can't be the same as the +20 DC modifier for pinpointing a creature, because that +20 DC modifier for pinpointing a creature happens even if the invisible creature is not using stealth.


It's not exactly true, by the by, that watching someone chug a potion that causes them to disappear means you know they are invisible and in the same room. A few examples:

-The potion could have been a potion of jester's jaunt, in which case the drinker didn't disappear at all, but just teleported out the nearby doorway (assuming the geography allows for that)
-The potion might have been some sort of invisibility draught, but upon casting it the creature could have cast a quickened spell to teleport away (or used a class ability to do the same)

In regards to the overall DC, I can see both sides of the coin. The special abilities text on noticing an invisible creature states that it is a DC 20.

Arguably, that could be read to mean to initially notice it, when you aren't yet aware that such a creature is even around. It doesn't necessarily indicate that the base DC of perception checks against the invisible creature under all circumstances - such as when trying to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature of which you're already aware - is 20, only that the base DC to notice it in the first place is 20.

Now, personally, I probably would side with Grick on this; an invisible creature should be incredibly difficult to find, even if that creature is engaged in combat (via greater invisibility or equivalent) and\or moving. But I can see where there is a possible point of confusion.


People keep throwing the words "base dc" around, nowhere on srd does it say the word "base" there is no base DC. There is just a DC 20 perception check to gain a hunch that somethings there.

As far as the whole I dont know what kinda potion it was, if its a spell a simple spellcraft will reveal what spell was cast.


wargod wrote:
People keep throwing the words "base dc" around, nowhere on srd does it say the word "base" there is no base DC. There is just a DC 20 perception check to gain a hunch that somethings there.

"It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check."

See the plus before the 20? That means it's being added to something.

What's it being added to?

I would say it's being added to the DC 20 Perception check to notice the presence of an active invisible creature, resulting in a DC 40 check to pinpoint the location.

Others may invent a DC (like saying "the Dc to pinpoint it is 0") then add 20 to that, resulting in it being exactly as difficult to pinpoint a creature as it is to have any idea the creature is there in the first place, despite the rules explicitly saying it's practically impossible.


So on round 1 I roll a 20 on my peception so I "gain a hunch somethings there" but can't pinpoint it, on round 2 I search again I have to gain "a hunch" that something is there again. That doesn't make sense, my hunch doesn't go away.
Nevermind that to my knowledge skill checks are pass/fail, I dont believe you can gain a partial success.

I really wish paizo would clarify all this, its causing issue on my game.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

The DC 20 'hunch' is just that, a hunch something is up. If someone is trying to sneak past you invisible, you have a change of noticing them.

The table is confusing, the easiest way to resolve it is simply have the invisible creature make a Stealth check with a +20 DC bonus (this is even noted in the rules for invisibility). Then just apply all the normal bonuses and penalties to Stealth.


Dennis Baker wrote:

The DC 20 'hunch' is just that, a hunch something is up. If someone is trying to sneak past you invisible, you have a change of noticing them.

The table is confusing, the easiest way to resolve it is simply have the invisible creature make a Stealth check with a +20 DC bonus (this is even noted in the rules for invisibility). Then just apply all the normal bonuses and penalties to Stealth.

This is what i'm saying.

If you are invisible you get a +20 to your stealth check, if you don't move you get a +40. there are no other bonuses. If a rogue drinks a potion of invisibility in the same room as me and i watch him do it then rolls a 16 on his stealth roll, i need a 56 on my perception check to pinpoint him, 36 if he moves.


Dennis Baker wrote:
the easiest way to resolve it is simply have the invisible creature make a Stealth check with a +20 DC bonus (this is even noted in the rules for invisibility). Then just apply all the normal bonuses and penalties to Stealth.

Using your interpretation, you need to get a 15 or higher on your stealth check, before adding the +20 bonus from invisibility, or else it's actually easier to pinpoint you than if you weren't trying to be sneaky at all.

Pinpointing an invisible creature that is moving at half speed is DC 35.

Pinpointing an invisible creature that is moving at half speed and using stealth is, according to you, Stealth+20.

wargod wrote:
If you are invisible you get a +20 to your stealth check, if you don't move you get a +40. there are no other bonuses.

Correct. And that stealth check, including the one singular bonus, is added to the perception DC. That perception DC is modified by a number of other things, like being in combat, moving, and whether or not the person perceiving is trying to pinpoint the square rather than just noticing the invisible creature.

wargod wrote:
If a rogue drinks a potion of invisibility in the same room as me and i watch him do it then rolls a 16 on his stealth roll, i need a 56 on my perception check to pinpoint him, 36 if he moves.

To pinpoint him, assuming he's moving at half speed, is DC 35+S (DC 20 to notice, +20 to pinpoint, -5 moving half speed, +Stealth Check)

If he rolled a 16 on his d20, and has no stealth modifier, then the result of that check is a 36, resulting in a final DC to pinpoint of 71.

"There are a number of modifiers that can be applied to this DC if the invisible creature is moving or engaged in a noisy activity."

That stealth check, including the +20, is a modifier that is applied to the DC.

The table is not a list of DCs, it's a list of modifiers that you apply to the DC mentioned just above it.


Grick wrote:


If he rolled a 16 on his d20, and has no stealth modifier, then the result of that check is a 36, resulting in a final DC to pinpoint of 71.

This dc is outrageous, someone would need a +51 to their perception in order to pinpoint them, I haven't found a single creature or NPC with a perception this high, thats not "practically impossible" thats impossible . Furthermore as I have stated I saw him drink the potion, becoming invisible doesn't make the universe oblivious to your existence I dont need to notice or gain a hunch that something is there, I know he was there I know there was someone there and know he gone, there is no mystery.

Also it states under stealth "You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty" so why does it say under the "creature is" table -5 for moving at half speed? If i was not invisible and using stealth and moving at half speed I take no -5 to my stealth check, but if i turn invisible and move at half my speed I now have a -5 penalty??? That's because those movement penalties under "creature is" table are for creatures not using stealth. This is when the "It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check." comes into play. This +20 is used when the Dm calls for you to pinpoint an invisible creature when a creature is hampered be some environmental effects that require a perception check, you dont get to add this to your stealth check.

But none of that matters once a creature decides to use stealth while invisible, he gets a +20 to his stealth check or a +40 if he doesn't move. Whatever his stealth check is +20 is the dc for the perception check to pinpoint him (+40 if he doesn't move :P)

Example

A rogue wants to sneak past a 1st 1 level warrior town guard (+3 perception), he drinks a potion of Invisibility makes a stealth check and walks past moving at half speed (10 on the die +7 ranks in stealth, +20 for being invisible =37. Dm rolls a perception check for the guard to notice, he needs a 18 or better to even notice that something is there (+3 perception). Lets say he rolls a 19 and gets a total of 21 "eh , who's there?" now he makes a perception check to try and pinpoint the source, this is vs. the rogue's stealth check, since he only has a +3 to his perception he has no hope of success, Dm doesn't even roll "must of been the wind". Rogue slips past guard no problem..


wargod wrote:
Also it states under stealth "You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty" so why does it say under the "creature is" table -5 for moving at half speed?

The table says that because that's the modifier for an invisible creature moving at half speed. It has no relation to stealth.

I'll say that again: The perception check DC modifier for moving at half speed has nothing to do with stealth.

If an invisible creature is standing still, and not doing anything, it's DC 20 to notice him, and DC 40 to pinpoint him. If he's instead moving at half speed, it's DC 15 to notice him and DC 35 to pinpoint him.

That table is a set of modifiers to the perception DC. The only one that has anything to do with stealth is the one that says "Using Stealth".

wargod wrote:
If i was not invisible and using stealth and moving at half speed I take no -5 to my stealth check, but if i turn invisible and move at half my speed I now have a -5 penalty???

You do not have any penalty.

A Penalty is a numerical value that is subtracted from a check or statistical score. You are not subtracting anything from your stealth check.

What you have is a modifier to the perception check DC. It's easier to notice an invisible creature that is moving, so the DC is lowered by 5.

The table under Invisibility lists modifiers to the perception DC.

wargod wrote:
That's because those movement penalties under "creature is" table are for creatures not using stealth.

They're not penalties, they're modifiers. You apply each of those modifiers that apply to whatever the creature is doing, as long as it's moving or engaged in a noisy activity.

wargod wrote:
This is when the "It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check." This +20 is used when the Dm calls for you to pinpoint an invisible creature when a creature is hampered be some environmental effects that require a perception check you dont get to add this to your stealth check.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

The +20 DC to pinpoint is a modifier to the DC when the creature doing the perceiving wants to pinpoint the square of the invisible creature. It has nothing to do with stealth. It is not a bonus. It is not a penalty. It's just a modifier to the perception DC for attempting a more difficult task.

wargod wrote:
Whatever his stealth check is +20 is the dc for the perception check to pinpoint him

The chart is not a list of DCs. It's a list of modifiers to the DC.

"There are a number of modifiers that can be applied to this DC if the invisible creature is moving or engaged in a noisy activity."

See? Modifiers that are applied to the DC.

One of those modifiers is when "Invisible creature is..." "Using Stealth". That modifier is "Stealth check +20"

So you take "Stealth check +20" and apply that modifier to the perception DC.

wargod wrote:
A rogue wants to sneak past a 1st 1 level warrior town guard (+3 perception), he drinks a potion of Invisibility makes a stealth check and walks past moving at half speed (10 on the die +7 ranks in stealth, +20 for being invisible =37. Dm rolls a perception check for the guard to notice, he needs a 18 or better to even notice that something is there (+3 perception).

For the guard to notice the presence of the active invisible creature is DC 20, and since the invisible creature is moving or engaged in a noisy activity, the table applies a number of modifiers to that DC. Since the rogue is moving at half speed, that applies -5 to the DC. Since the rogue is using stealth, that applies the stealth check (including the +20 bonus) to the DC.

20 -5 +37 = DC 52 to notice the presence of the rogue nearby.

wargod wrote:
Lets say he rolls a 19 and gets a total of 21 "eh , who's there?"

Since he failed the DC 52 perception check, the guard doesn't notice the presence of the invisible creature.

wargod wrote:
now he makes a perception check to try and pinpoint the source, this is vs. the rogue's stealth check

In order for the guard to pinpoint the rogue's square, instead of just noticing his presence, he needs to make a more difficult check.

Trying to pinpoint the square applies a +20 modifier to the perception check DC.

20 +20 -5 +37 = DC 72 to pinpoint the rogue's square. (Assuming the rogue ended up within 10' of the guard, otherwise there's a distance modifier you'll need to apply also)


I'm sorry Grick, I don't agree with you. I think the initial DC 20 perception check just to notice that something is amiss or afoot is a separate check.

the "creature is" table has rules for different situations. If you are invisible (DC 20 for me to gain a hunch something is there) but you are "In combat or speaking" there is a -20 to the dc which makes it 0, I know there is something there I can hear it.

"It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check." it doesn't say "the perception check" it says "a perception check"

I'll say it again there is no base DC that you then build on to pinpoint a creature. At this point if a creature wants to hide from the other creature that now knows something is there because it spoke or was in combat it needs to make a stealth check for which it receives a +40 for being invisible or +20 if it moves. Its a straight up stealth VS. perception.


I only have a small point to concede to this discussion:

Quote:
Round 1: Rogue drinks a potion of invisibility

Was it invisibility, teleport, ethereal jaunt, blink?

If someone imbibes a magical liquid and can no longer be seen you'd need to make a spellcraft check to differentiate. If you don't have ranks in spellcraft, then the hunch/Perception would be necessary regardless.


wargod wrote:
I'll say it again there is no base DC that you then build on to pinpoint a creature.

Then what is the +20 being applied to?

"It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check."

That doesn't say "DC 20" it says "+20 DC". Add twenty to the DC. What DC?


Grick wrote:
wargod wrote:
I'll say it again there is no base DC that you then build on to pinpoint a creature.

Then what is the +20 being applied to?

"It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check."

That doesn't say "DC 20" it says "+20 DC". Add twenty to the DC. What DC?

A stealth check or any other perception check the DM might require is the answer to your question.

Let me ask you this, acording to your interpritation of the rules is there a situation where a creature would not recieve the +20 to pinpoint on top of the stealth +20? If not why under stealth does it not say " you receive a +60 to your stealth or a +40 if you move? Why did they feel the need to seperate the bonuses?
Could it possible be that they are the same bonus and you are adding them twice?


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As a point of comparison, here are the rules for perceiving targets while blind because of darkness:

Darkness wrote:
A creature blinded by darkness can make a Perception check as a free action each round in order to locate foes (DC equal to opponents' Stealth checks). A successful check lets a blinded character hear an unseen creature “over there somewhere.” It's almost impossible to pinpoint the location of an unseen creature. A Perception check that beats the DC by 20 reveals the unseen creature's square

If the same rogue with the same Stealth check (10 on the die +7 ranks in stealth) is in complete darkness it's a DC 17 to know that he's there and an effective DC 37 to pinpoint the square (add modifiers for distances greater than 10').

So, there's your answer. If the rogue drinks a potion of invisibility, close your eyes and pinpoint the square.

Carry on.


Ansel Krulwich wrote:

As a point of comparison, here are the rules for perceiving targets while blind because of darkness:

Darkness wrote:
A creature blinded by darkness can make a Perception check as a free action each round in order to locate foes (DC equal to opponents' Stealth checks). A successful check lets a blinded character hear an unseen creature “over there somewhere.” It's almost impossible to pinpoint the location of an unseen creature. A Perception check that beats the DC by 20 reveals the unseen creature's square

If the same rogue with the same Stealth check (10 on the die +7 ranks in stealth) is in complete darkness it's a DC 17 to know that he's there and an effective DC 37 to pinpoint the square (add modifiers for distances greater than 10').

So, there's your answer. If the rogue drinks a potion of invisibility, close your eyes and pinpoint the square.

Carry on.

Yes yes, excellent find my friend.

I believe this confirms my argument on the +20 debate.


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Ansel Krulwich wrote:

As a point of comparison, here are the rules for perceiving targets while blind because of darkness:

Darkness wrote:
A creature blinded by darkness can make a Perception check as a free action each round in order to locate foes (DC equal to opponents' Stealth checks). A successful check lets a blinded character hear an unseen creature “over there somewhere.” It's almost impossible to pinpoint the location of an unseen creature. A Perception check that beats the DC by 20 reveals the unseen creature's square

If the same rogue with the same Stealth check (10 on the die +7 ranks in stealth) is in complete darkness it's a DC 17 to know that he's there and an effective DC 37 to pinpoint the square (add modifiers for distances greater than 10').

So, there's your answer. If the rogue drinks a potion of invisibility, close your eyes and pinpoint the square.

Carry on.

"Your eyes can deceive you. Don't trust them. Stretch out with your feelings."


The table on page 102 under perception might shed some further light on this.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

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Grick wrote:
Using your interpretation, you need to get a 15 or higher on your stealth check, before adding the +20 bonus from invisibility, or else it's actually easier to pinpoint you than if you weren't trying to be sneaky at all.

You say this as if its some esoteric interpretation of the rules. "According to me" is looking at the table and reading the line that says "Using Stealth — Stealth Check +20".

Grick wrote:
That doesn't say "DC 20" it says "+20 DC". Add twenty to the DC. What DC?

The DC to notice a creature normally with Perception. Noticing a visible creature in is DC 0. Noticing a creature 30 feet away is DC 3, etc etc.

Which means spotting an invisible creature who is moving at half speed but not using Stealth should be DC 15...

Trying to use the table you are referring to without taking into account the Stealth skill is vastly inaccurate. Stealth takes into account armor check penalties while your straight DC 35 check does not. It gets even more ridiculous when you take into account size as a Gargantuan creature is just as difficult to pinpoint as a Tiny creature.

Using the Stealth skill is clearly within the rules and is vastly more accurate than what you suggest, you are basically inventing a whole new system.


Dennis Baker wrote:
Grick wrote:
Using your interpretation, you need to get a 15 or higher on your stealth check, before adding the +20 bonus from invisibility, or else it's actually easier to pinpoint you than if you weren't trying to be sneaky at all.

You say this as if its some esoteric interpretation of the rules. "According to me" is looking at the table and reading the line that says "Using Stealth — Stealth Check +20".

Grick wrote:
That doesn't say "DC 20" it says "+20 DC". Add twenty to the DC. What DC?

The DC to notice a creature normally with Perception. Noticing a visible creature in is DC 0. Noticing a creature 30 feet away is DC 3, etc etc.

Which means spotting an invisible creature who is moving at half speed but not using Stealth should be DC 15...

Trying to use the table you are referring to without taking into account the Stealth skill is vastly inaccurate. Stealth takes into account armor check penalties while your straight DC 35 check does not. It gets even more ridiculous when you take into account size as a Gargantuan creature is just as difficult to pinpoint as a Tiny creature.

Using the Stealth skill is clearly within the rules and is vastly more accurate than what you suggest, you are basically inventing a whole new system.

Preach!

Shadow Lodge

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I've been watching this thread and I initially was on Gricks side of the argument. However, after Ansel posted the blinded rules I am convinced otherwise. How could it be that much harder (approximately 30 more points according to previous posts) to pinpoint an invisible creature than to pinpoint while you're blinded. It's effectively the same thing. Dennis also helped bring things more into perspective as to what DC the modifiers were being applied to, and it makes a lot of sense. Good discussion though.


wargod wrote:
Grick wrote:
That doesn't say "DC 20" it says "+20 DC". Add twenty to the DC. What DC?
A stealth check or any other perception check the DM might require is the answer to your question.

That has nothing to do with stealth. It's a modifier to a DC.

Why is the DC to pinpoint an invisible creatures square identical to the DC to have a hunch he's there in the first place? Why does the hunch even exist when you're going to pinpoint it anyway?

wargod wrote:
Let me ask you this, acording to your interpritation of the rules is there a situation where a creature would not recieve the +20 to pinpoint on top of the stealth +20?

A creature doesn't receive anything. Pinpoint is a modifier to a DC, not a bonus nor a penalty to a skill check.

wargod wrote:
If not why under stealth does it not say " you receive a +60 to your stealth or a +40 if you move?

Because the DC increase to pinpoint instead of just notice has nothing to do with stealth.

wargod wrote:
Why did they feel the need to seperate the bonuses?

They didn't separate bonuses, because the DC modifier is not a bonus. Read the definition of a bonus.

wargod wrote:
Could it possible be that they are the same bonus and you are adding them twice?

No, it couldn't, because it's not a bonus.


Ansel Krulwich wrote:

As a point of comparison, here are the rules for perceiving targets while blind because of darkness:

Darkness wrote:
A creature blinded by darkness can make a Perception check as a free action each round in order to locate foes (DC equal to opponents' Stealth checks). A successful check lets a blinded character hear an unseen creature “over there somewhere.” It's almost impossible to pinpoint the location of an unseen creature. A Perception check that beats the DC by 20 reveals the unseen creature's square

That clearly shows that pinpointing a square is supposed to be 20 higher than just noticing it.

Ansel Krulwich wrote:
So, there's your answer. If the rogue drinks a potion of invisibility, close your eyes and pinpoint the square.

That won't work, because the rogue is still invisible, and thus still gets the +20 bonus to stealth checks.

Darkness doesn't grant that bonus. Invisibility does.


Dennis Baker wrote:
"According to me" is looking at the table and reading the line that says "Using Stealth — Stealth Check +20".

And ignoring the fact that the entire table is a list of modifiers to the DC. Not a list of DCs.

Dennis Baker wrote:
The DC to notice a creature normally with Perception. Noticing a visible creature in is DC 0.

Why would you use the skill check to notice a visible creature instead of the skill check it tells you to use to notice an invisible creature?

Dennis Baker wrote:
Trying to use the table you are referring to without taking into account the Stealth skill is vastly inaccurate.

Not at all, only one of those entries involves stealth. Every other entry on that table is exactly the same regardless of whether the invisible creature is using stealth.

Dennis Baker wrote:
Stealth takes into account armor check penalties while your straight DC 35 check does not.

Because the DC 35 check is for a creature not using stealth.


*Invisible creature starts sneaking past the Guard* Rolls Stealth. Gets a 10 +20 from Invis for a 30.
Guard: Rolls Perception, gets a 23.
GM: You get an uneasy feeling that you're not alone, something is here with you, but don't know exactly where.
Guard 2 rolls a perception check as he comes back from his rounds: Nat 20, that's 35!
GM: Ok, Guard 2, you barely manage to hear the sound of footsteps coming from this square.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

OK, I'm getting conflicted so let me examine this and break it down as I see it. Looking at the table for perception it is a DC 0 to spot a visible creature. it is a modifier of +20 if the creature is invisible. Which coincides with what Invisibility says:

Invisibility wrote:
A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check.

"generally notices" meaning he doesn't know what exact square they are in just that they are there.

Invisibility wrote:
The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack.
invisibility wrote:
It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check.

OK, so we are at DC 20 to know something is there. Add +20 to that if we want to pinpoint the location. So base 40 DC to pinpoint an invisible creature not moving and not using stealth. Now lets add in stealth:

20 DC to notice. If stealthed add stealth roll +20. so lets say the stealth roll was a 20 (rolled 10 with +10 stealth) so that would be +40 making it 60 DC to notice a stealthed invisible creature. And that's just to know he's there. Add +20 to that if you want to pinpoint him, making it 80 DC. On top of that, even if you pinpoint where he is it is still a 50% miss chance on any targeted attack.

The argument that you saw him drink a potion is null because he is still invisible regardless. On top of that you don't know what the potion was so you would still have to roll to know he's there. Now, if he moved then drank a potion and vanished you could "assume" he is still in that square but you wouldn't know for sure without making the appropriate perception check or attacking that square and getting a hit. This is all based on the rules as they are written. It can be houseruled however you want, but as the rules state this is the DCs.

It should be near impossible to find an invisible person, they are invisible after all. Look at it from a reality standpoint. Are you telling me that just because you know (or think you know) that someone is there that you could easily (or fairly easily) tell where they are without seeing them? There are spells and effects in the game to counter Invisibility so it's not like it's impossible to beat someone that is invisible. You just need to be creative and use your utilities.


anthonydido wrote:


20 DC to notice. If stealthed add stealth roll +20. so lets say the stealth roll was a 20 (rolled 10 with +10 stealth) so that would be +40 making it 60 DC to notice a stealthed invisible creature. And that's just to know he's there. Add +20 to that if you want to pinpoint him, making it 80 DC. On top of that, even if you pinpoint where he is it is still a 50% miss chance on any targeted attack.

Wow, no the notice roll is never Higher then DC 20.

If he gets a 20 on his stealth roll, its DC 20 to notice, DC 40 to pinpoint (DC 60 if he doesn't move)

The idea that there is a difference between pinpointing a creature if A. you are in total darkness B. you are blind or C. the creature is Invisible
makes no sense, its all the same and the rules should be identical.

I'm still not convinced that the notice roll and the roll to pinpoint are not separate rolls. it only seems logical to me because of the wording.

Also folks keep talking about potions, but what about spells. If i'm a wizard and I watch you cast invisibility I know you are now invisible, the notice roll is not necessary. I now can attempt to pinpoint you, if you stand still and do not use stealth its a DC 40, which is very high that's why they say its practically impossible, 40 is not a low DC, a creature would need a +20 on their perception check to achieve this, most creatures 10th lvl or lower wont be able to hit that DC.

Now if the use stealth they add 20 the total and it becomes even harder, even if they roll only a 10 that's DC 50, hitting a DC 50 on a skill check is no easy task. If your perception check is getting up into the +20s then an invisible creature isn't that big a deal to you.

Lets deconstruct this mother.

If your a 10th level druid with a 20 wisdom (+5 to perception checks) and 10 (+3 for it being a class skill) ranks in perception that means he's gotta +18 to his D20 roll with a max possibility of 38, That means he has a zero chance to pinpoint an invisible creature that doesn't move. Of course he could have magic items to give him a perception boost, be that's neither here nor there..

whats my point? Its this, after 10th level or so, you cant expect invisibility to be all that great anymore. However let us all not forget that regardless of pinpoint or no, a invisible creature still receives the 50% miss chance.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

What do you use stealth for? To keep from getting NOTICED. So if you are invisible and stealthing (trying to be extra quiet) then it would be much harder to notice you are even there because one of your senses(sight) is taken out of the equation.

OK, so you know he cast invisibility. You still don't know he is there. Maybe he cast it and then teleported or just ran out of the room. Just because you saw or noticed him once doesn't take away the need to keep seeing if he is actually there.

And it is very possible for a level 10 character to hit a 40 DC. 20 wisdom (+5), 10 ranks (+10), class skill (+3), skill focus (+3), trait bonus (+1), keen senses (+2). That's +24 without rolling.


anthonydido wrote:

What do you use stealth for? To keep from getting NOTICED. So if you are invisible and stealthing (trying to be extra quiet) then it would be much harder to notice you are even there because one of your senses(sight) is taken out of the equation.

OK, so you know he cast invisibility. You still don't know he is there. Maybe he cast it and then teleported or just ran out of the room. Just because you saw or noticed him once doesn't take away the need to keep seeing if he is actually there.

Ok what if i'm wizard and i just made a potion of invisibility, an now I order my zombie to drink the potion and stand still while I walk across the room and start throwing darts at the him?? Do I still need to wonder if the zombie is still in the room?? Do I need to notice that there is an invisible creature in the room?? Nope I Know he's there, the D20 notice roll is not necessary. If I then order the zombie to move 10 feet in a random direction and then stop, I now need to make a DC 20 perception check to pinpoint him, if I fail that check the next round the DC will be 40 because he has stopped moving.

Day 2 of invisibility experiment (this wizard is kinda nuts)

I brew another potion of invisibility. I then order my goblin valet into the room and shut the door behind him, I know that he's just a 1st level commoner with no magical ability to teleport. I then have him drink the potion and move around the room trying to be as quiet as he can whilst I throw darts at him. He has no ranks in stealth, but he gets +4 for being a goblin and 2 from dex, giving him a +6 to his stealth check, he rolls a 10 giving him a 16 +20 for being invisible making the DC 36 to pinpoint him while he his moving. I now tell him to stop moving, he makes another stealth roll, gets a 10 again I now have to roll a 56 on my perception in order to pinpoint him! A 1st lvl goblin commoner that's practically impossible to pinpoint...

Silver Crusade

I think of the first check to give you a general idea of where the person is, like in which quadrant of the room. The higher DC check allows you to pinpoint the exact square.

Silver Crusade

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I would suggest everyone who's been arguing this to hit the "FAQ" button on the OP. Even if you're absolutely certain you're right, as every poster here seems to have said a different take on it, there is enough confusion that everyone else needs it cleared up.

Here's my (very long) take, as I also view it slightly differently than everyone else. Feel free to disagree or argue it, I will admit to a degree of uncertainty, due to wording that could be a bit more precise.

It is a base DC20 to get a feeling that something's nearby if you didn't already know that. A "Hunch" that you are not alone, that some may wave off as a case of bad nerves. Anything on the table for Invisible does modify that--someone slow-walking by you at less than half speed 5 feet from you is DC20 perception to be alerted that something's up.

Ignore distance for the rest of these examples.

Someone walking between half and full speed, while not making a major attempt to be stealthy is DC15, something most people with any sort of perceptive skills could do with a reasonable chance of success, as they probably hear footsteps. Someone standing perfectly still is a DC40 to notice--as reasonably, the only thing you could be picking up on is their breathing, body heat given off, or the occasional tiny rustle of clothes as their body rocks back and forth.
And no, you do not have to make any of these attempts if you are already certain there is an invisible person there.

Whenever stealth comes into play, you use the person's stealth check +20 as the Hunch DC (the invis table's "stealth +20"). Ignore everything else on the invisibility table and use Stealth modifiers instead (note that it makes a special mention that using stealth while invisible is +20 normally or +40 if staying still, don't stack those). So an invisible rogue with a +10 stealth moving between half and full speed (-5 stealth), rolling a 10 has an effective stealth of 35 to notice him. He can't attempt to use stealth as the DC if he's running, charging, talking or attacking, and in those cases the DC to know someone's there is 0, 20 to pinpoint his exact location.

You need to beat any of these DCs by 20 to know exactly where that person is. For the most part, you're highly unlikely to be able to tell exactly where an invisible person is (unless the invisible person is in combat), but someone in the party will probably know there IS an invisible person somewhere around here in order to do something about it. If you're up against invisible rogues, the situation is such that it would be very difficult in the first place.

I would also say that the +20 is a bit too steep, because although humans (and I assume most humanoids) are visually focused, our hearing isn't quite THAT useless, especially if the person already knows there's something around that they will need to listen to find. I.e. in the martial arts classes I took when I was a teenager, we did take classes on how to fight someone you couldn't see (more meant for "in the dark" than "your opponent is invisible") where one person closed our eyes and fought an opponent who was told to stay quiet, try to sneak behind the person and tap their back to signify they failed. If the other person was running around we could find them no problem. If they weren't moving, or moving *very* slowly (only 5-foot steps?), it would maybe 10 seconds to notice them to make an attack. Only the least perceptive people regularly failed completely, although the attacks were still relatively innacurate (50% miss chance?).

So as a houserule, assuming the perceiver already knew there was an invisible person there who was sneaking, and was actively searching for them (a move action) with their non-visual senses, I would make the DC to pinpoint Stealth +5 or +10 with normal distraction penalties applying (so your goblin example would be DC21-26 to pinpoint, with normal 50% miss chance applying). But that's the RAW rules as I understand them.

EDIT: I would also houserule that any size or armor check modifiers to stealth apply to the perception DCs, even if you're not using stealth as the DC.


Every time one of these threads pop up I hear the cry of remorse of spot and listen being rolled into a single skill without clarifying things like invisibility.


I was just looking through rules for the beginners box, and I know the there are some differences, but it backs up my view of how invisibility works.

To pinpoint an invisible creature, DC = stealth +20


wargod wrote:
Wow, no the notice roll is never Higher then DC 20.

This is not true.

The DC to notice the presence of the nearby invisible creature can be modified by the table under Invisibility. That's what the table is for, it's to modify the DC.

Some of those modifiers are positive, this means they increase the DC.

wargod wrote:
The idea that there is a difference between pinpointing a creature if A. you are in total darkness B. you are blind or C. the creature is Invisible makes no sense, its all the same and the rules should be identical.

Perhaps they should be, but they aren't. Feel free to use a house rule that treats them the same if that suits the style of play that your gaming group enjoys.

wargod wrote:
If i'm a wizard and I watch you cast invisibility I know you are now invisible, the notice roll is not necessary. I now can attempt to pinpoint you, if you stand still and do not use stealth its a DC 40

Just to be clear, you got that DC 40 by taking the base DC to notice an invisible creature (DC 20) and modified it by +20 (to pinpoint), correct?

wargod wrote:
Ok what if i'm wizard and i just made a potion of invisibility, an now I order my zombie to drink the potion and stand still while I walk across the room and start throwing darts at the him?? Do I still need to wonder if the zombie is still in the room?? Do I need to notice that there is an invisible creature in the room?? Nope I Know he's there, the D20 notice roll is not necessary.

You can certainly assume the zombie is still there.

However, if you wanted to make sure, you could still pinpoint his square with a DC 40 perception check, just like you mentioned in your above post.

wargod wrote:
If I then order the zombie to move 10 feet in a random direction and then stop, I now need to make a DC 20 perception check to pinpoint him

The invisible zombie has triggered the invisibility table by moving.

DC 20 to notice him
+20 to pinpoint him
-5 because he's moving at half speed
+1 per 10' you are away from him (Distance)

wargod wrote:
He has no ranks in stealth, but he gets +4 for being a goblin and 2 from dex, giving him a +6 to his stealth check, he rolls a 10 giving him a 16 +20 for being invisible making the DC 36 to pinpoint him while he his moving.

The DC to pinpoint an invisible creature is not equal to the result of his stealth check. You MODIFY the DC with the result of the stealth check.

We know this is true because the rules explicitly say so.

"There are a number of modifiers that can be applied to this DC if the invisible creature is moving or engaged in a noisy activity."

That table lists the modifiers that can be applied to that DC.

It's not a list of DCs. It's a list of modifiers.


Dazz wrote:
It is a base DC20 to get a feeling that something's nearby if you didn't already know that. A "Hunch" that you are not alone, that some may wave off as a case of bad nerves. Anything on the table for Invisible does modify that--someone slow-walking by you at less than half speed 5 feet from you is DC20 perception to be alerted that something's up.

While you are correct that the DC can be modified by the table, you forgot to actually modify it in your example.

If the Invisible creature is... Moving at half speed, then you modify the Perception DC by -5.

This results in a DC 15 perception check to notice the presence of an invisible creature that is moving at half speed at less than 10 feet away.

Dazz wrote:
Someone walking between half and full speed, while not making a major attempt to be stealthy is DC15

If your base land speed is 30', and you move 20 feet, you're moving faster than half speed, so you use the higher modifier for full speed, resulting in a DC of 10.

Dazz wrote:
Whenever stealth comes into play, you use the person's stealth check +20 as the Hunch DC (the invis table's "stealth +20").

Why are you using the stealth check as the DC instead of modifying the DC with the stealth check?

Is it because there's not a plus or minus in front of "Stealth check" in the table?

If so, isn't it more likely that the reason for that is because the stealth check can be positive or negative?

Dazz wrote:
He can't attempt to use stealth as the DC if he's running, charging, talking or attacking, and in those cases the DC to know someone's there is 0, 20 to pinpoint his exact location.

Why on earth would activating the table set the DC to zero?

The DC is 20, modified by whatever is happening.

So if you have an invisible creature who is speaking and moving at full speed, you modify the perception DC by both of those, according to the table.

DC 20 to notice
-20 for speaking
-10 for moving at full speed

Total perception DC of -10 to notice the presence of a nearby invisible speaking moving creature.

If you want to pinpoint it, you add 20 to that DC, because the rules tell you to, resulting in a DC 10 perception check to pinpoint the square of a nearby invisible speaking full-moving creature.

Dazz wrote:
If the other person was running around we could find them no problem.

Which is a good example of how noticing a creature that you just can't see (such as in darkness) is much easier than noticing a creature that is under a magical effect that grants it a significant bonus to stealth checks.


When I hear my cell phone buzz somewhere in the room, even if it has total concealment, I know it's there. However, knowing it is there doesn't make it easier for me to pinpoint it. It remains way more difficult for me to pinpoint it than it was for me to notice it (perhaps) in the room. Probably close to twice as difficult. I usually then go borrow a phone, start calling it and keep re-rolling my perception check until I find it. How'd it get under the fitted sheet of the bed!?

There have even been times when I couldn't make the check and considered. Well, maybe it was my imagination, or perhaps it was buzzing in that room. God forbid that I was in a non-quite environment, like an ongoing battle while I tried to pinpoint my buzzing cellphone. Heck that would be like a negative trillion to my perception check to notice a buzzing cellphone :)

People are like omg it's too hard to pinpoint invisible things! lol - luckily for the uninvisible, invisibility is downgraded drastically if used while doing things such as trying to harm the uninvisible. I guess the bane of any party is the evil wizard that gets away. Nothing worse than when my players cry and cry that it shouldn't be impossible for them to keep the invisible bad guy around. Too bad they weren't prepared with one of the billion methods of thwarting invisibility (slight exaggeration).

Well, good discussion. However, I have to give my vote for resident expert on all things invisible to Sir Grick the Patient Explainor of all things Unexplainable.


This discussion takes the cake. I'm amazed that some are arguing that spotting an invisible creature is easier when said creature is using stealth.

lol lol lol lol lol lol lol.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

When pinpointing, is it possible to completely bypass the +20 to Stealth DC (and having to make a Perception check in general) simply by noticing something like the fact that the footprints haven't yet moved from their last square?

Or are little clues and things like that assumed to be included in the Perception/Stealth checks?


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I went back and forth on this and thread and ultimately I found it easier to just use the Perception table for reference: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/skills/perception.html#_perception

DC is at the top of the table, modifiers at the bottom:

Notice Person: DC 0
Invisible: +20

Ok, that's how we get our DC 20 to notice a "presence"

Notice Person using stealth: DC Opposed by Stealth (so d20 + stealth, lets say he rolled a 10 +6, 16)
Invisible: +20

Ok, so DC is 36 now for Invisible stealth person

These are base DC numbers derived from the Perception table. From here you can use the other modifiers for walk, running, etc. Noting to Pinpoint a target is +20.

So, to "notice the presence" of the Ninja, who took a double move towards you while invisible and now within 10 feet not using stealth, it would be 0 + 20 - 10 = 10. To "Pinpoint" his location is a 30.

This time he uses stealth, making a double move at half speed so stealth = d20 + stealth + 20, to Pinpoint +20.

Bottom line, DC is always either base 0 or d20+Stealth, from there add +20 for being invisible, another +20 to pinpoint, and all the other modifiers from http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html#invisibility


Jamz wrote:

Notice Person: DC 0

Invisible: +20

Ok, that's how we get our DC 20 to notice a "presence"

If you prefer to think of it that way, sure. Just keep in mind that +20 you applied is not a bonus.

Jamz wrote:

Notice Person using stealth: DC Opposed by Stealth (so d20 + stealth, lets say he rolled a 10 +6, 16)

Invisible: +20

Ok, so DC is 36 now for Invisible stealth person

Being invisible grants a bonus to stealth checks. You didn't add that in.

The reason it's harder to notice an invisible creature vs a visible creature has nothing to do with stealth. When you say "Invisible: +20" that's not a bonus, that's a modification to the perception DC. It applies even if the creature isn't using stealth.

So if the creature is using stealth, it still gets the specific bonus to stealth from being invisible.

This is another reason to just use the invisibility section, since it just tells you the DC to notice an invisible creature (DC 20) rather than taking the DC for something else then modifying it.

Jamz wrote:
So, to "notice the presence" of the Ninja, who took a double move towards you while invisible and now within 10 feet not using stealth, it would be 0 + 20 - 10 = 10. To "Pinpoint" his location is a 30.

DC 10 to notice an invisible creature moving at full speed and DC 30 to pinpoint is correct.

Jamz wrote:
This time he uses stealth, making a double move at half speed so stealth = d20 + stealth + 20, to Pinpoint +20.

Incorrect.

It's DC 20 to notice him, -5 from moving at half speed, +his stealth check, including a +20 bonus. And add another +20 if you want to pinpoint.

So, using your example, if he rolled a 10 on the d20 and normally has a stealth bonus of +6, it's DC 51 to notice (DC 20, -5 half speed, +36 Stealth) and DC 71 to pinpoint.

Jamz wrote:
Bottom line, DC is always either base 0 or d20+Stealth

Incorrect. The DC to notice an invisible creature is DC 20.

This is explicitly listed under Invisibility: "A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check."

Jamz wrote:
from there add +20 for being invisible, another +20 to pinpoint, and all the other modifiers from http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html#invisibility

One of those modifiers is for when the "Invisible creature is..." "Using Stealth"

The modifier for when that happens is "Stealth check +20"

You're using that modifier as the DC, instead of modifying the DC with it.

Shadow Lodge

So, you're essentially saying that someone with invisibility has a Stealth check of d20+[stealth skill modifier]+20 when he moves less than half speed.

The DC of pinpointing the stealthing creature, is then:

stealth check + 20
=(d20 + [stealth skill modifier] + 20) + 20

I guess that's RAW, but I can't accept that it's RAI for invisibility to work completely differently than the blind/darkness rules.


Serum wrote:
So, you're essentially saying that someone with invisibility has a Stealth check of d20+[stealth modifier]+20

If they're moving, yes. If they're standing still, being invisible grants a +40 bonus to stealth checks instead of just +20.

Serum wrote:

The DC of detecting the stealthing creature, is then:

Stealth check + 20
=(d20 + [stealth modifier] + 20) + 20

Assuming you mean to notice the presence of a nearby invisible creature using stealth, the DC is 20, then modified by the table as appropriate.

If the creature is using stealth and moving at half speed it's DC 20 modified with -5 for moving at half speed, and further modified by Stealth check +20.

Serum wrote:
I can't accept that it's RAI for invisibility to work completely differently than the blind/darkness rules.

I don't get more sneaky just because someone else is blind.

I do get more sneaky when I have a magical effect that specifically grants a bonus to stealth checks.


As I see it,

DC 0 to notice someone...
DC to notice stealthed individual = Stealth check
DC 20 to notice invisible someone +20 to pinpoint
DC 20 + Stealth check to notice invisible stealthed person, +20 to pinpoint, with an additional +20 if stationary.

If youre using DC 20(invisible) + (SC+20 invisible) +20 to pinpoint +20 if stationary, then I say you're double dipping the invisibility spell.

Of course, I could still be wrong, but that's my understanding.

Silver Crusade

Here's my take on it:

DC to notice someone: 1 per 10 ft away from you they are
***This is your BASE DC for all perception checks. Everything else is a modifier!***

Modifiers:
Invisibility: +20
Stealthed: d20 + Stealth skill (You add another +20 to this if the character is stealthed and invisible)
Pinpoint location: +20
Moving 1/2 speed or less: -5

This means that the DC to pinpoint the location of a stealthed ninja using the Vanishing Trick ninja trick is:

0 (base) + 20 (invisible) + d20 + stealtgh modifier + 20 (stealthed and invisible) + 20 (pinpoint) + 1 per 10ft (distance modifier)

That = d20 + 60 + stealth modifier + distance modifier


Bigdaddyjug wrote:

Here's my take on it:

DC to notice someone: 1 per 10 ft away from you they are
***This is your BASE DC for all perception checks. Everything else is a modifier!***

Modifiers:
Invisibility: +20
Stealthed: d20 + Stealth skill (You add another +20 to this if the character is stealthed and invisible)
Pinpoint location: +20
Moving 1/2 speed or less: -5

This means that the DC to pinpoint the location of a stealthed ninja using the Vanishing Trick ninja trick is:

0 (base) + 20 (invisible) + d20 + stealtgh modifier + 20 (stealthed and invisible) + 20 (pinpoint) + 1 per 10ft (distance modifier)

That = d20 + 60 + stealth modifier + distance modifier

Ok, getting much more indepth that I cared to, but yes, I agree with all except the +20 invisible, and the +20 stealthed and invisible. you're getting +40 from a 2nd level spell that only says you get +20, +40 if stationary.

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