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So I've started a new publishing company. We currently have a blog where we're fleshing out the ideas and gathering interest. The ultimate goal is to turn it into something.
Something. Awesome.
How is this different from any other setting? Well it's young for one. Think Babylon and Egypt instead of Rome. Magic is still wild and feral. Good and Evil haven't codified. Things are Chaotic and complicated.
Schools of Mages wander the cities like biker gangs performing brutal acts with the Magic that they're addicted to. The Workmen's Guild is a madmen's combination of Congress and Fight Club, and the Merchants are ruled by a Benevolent Tyrant.
We have entirely new takes on the Races. Humans are a minority. Elves are the fractured remnants of the old empire or have been turned into living intelligent Golems. Dwarven Samurai and Amazonian-esque lizard women fight in the deepest magical jungles.
And the Kindred, where anyone of any race can become an Orc, Troll, Goblin, Minotaur, or Ogre.
Curious? Take a look. We're actively looking for new designers and artists. Take a look. Drop us a line. Poke me with a stick. I won't bite.
Probably.
Dot.
Though we're having a bit of a rough time with the magic system at the moment we are absolutely looking at Pathfinder Compatibility. That's one of the major goals.
Just give folks options that aren't just Golarian Standard. Which for the record I love. We just want to try and expand stuff out.
This looks really darn cool! I'd love to play in this world :D
There are a few criticisms I have for this that are interwoven:
-First, I think you need a more comprehensive (but concise) overview of this setting. At the moment, the blog has a lot of material covering very specific areas of this world without giving me the Big Picture. When I look at an overview, I want to see brief descriptions of what the world feels like; it's technology level, terrain, religions, the various races that live in it and how those races coexist with one another. Then, I can choose to narrow in on the areas that interest me most or are relevant to the sort of game/character I want to play.
Second, while it is important to think about what sets your world apart from other settings, it is more important to be consistant and concise (there's that word again).
Let me explain: When I first started reading the OP, it sounded like a pre-Abrahamic (before the rise of Monotheistic religions) world, like the mentioned Babylon and Egypt, which isn't something we see much these days because it's so alien to the way we look at the world now. Most cultures exist as either roaming tribes or small, individually governed "kingdoms" that are more like the first stable villages. The idea of a previous advanced civilization of Elves sounds like it could make for interesting gameplay, with strange magical weapons and artifacts cropping up that starkly contrast with the Bronze-Age technology and limited magic of the emerging societies.
From there, though, it starts to lose consistency.
This has to do mainly with confusing word choice and/or concepts that seem to contradict the idea I first got. Examples
-Why are the groups of mages called "Schools" instead of a more fitting word, especially since you refer to them here as biker gangs)
-The entire concept of a Guild clashes with the idea of early civilizations. They didn't come around until the middle ages in the real world, and the idea of Guilds implies organization and universal standards in trades that wouldn't develop in a world where cities are few and far between, with each one having highly individualized laws and customs.
-The word "samurai" evokes a very specific image of their culture. Does this mean that dwarves in this world compare to real-world feudal Japan? There's nothing wrong with that in-and-of-itself, but aside from the fact that the sort of metalwork that goes into Japanese swords and armor doesn't make sense in such a primitive world, it makes less sense to, essentially, have Japan right next to Egypt and Greece on the map. Cultures that are so vastly different would not naturally develop right next to each other unless some Impassable Barrier existed between them for thousands of years before suddenly being dropped, at which point the cultures would start to bleed into one another. There's a reason why ancient China and Japan have a lot more in common than Egypt and Iceland did.
I recommend you think about everything bare-bones for awhile as opposed to jumping right into the literary. Think about everything you want to add to this world and think carefully about how and where it will fit. For instance, in the homebrew setting I use, the region we play in most of the time is all humans, dwarves, elves, and halflings (tieflings and such off-shoot races are included in that) because they are the most like eachother, and having every playable race inhabit a small space but have a distinct language and culture doesn't make sense. Humans in this area are a Romanesque culture relatively new but currently dominant, while the Elves are Gaelic and the Dwarves are Germanic/Norse, giving this region enough echoes of real-life geography to be probable but still giving me plenty of room to create unique cultures for each of them. Goblinoids are Slavic and come from the far north, while other races, like vanara, come from a completely different part of the world that is more like Asia.
I am not saying you have to handle races in a more traditional way like I have thus far, but if you drop vastly different cultures right next to each other on the map, it is going to feel like that to the reader, and the world will be less immersive.
To sum up, there isn't a whole lot of information there, but right now it looks more like a "World's Collide" type of setting where a bunch of different cultures from different worlds were
thrust next to each other on a small map, which doesn't seem to be what you're going for based on the short blips you've written here and in the overview on the blog. It could be that the dwarves and lizardfolk are supposed to be an entire continent away from this other stuff, and I just don't know that because it hasn't been detailed.
Some of that is my bad choices in the original post but thanks for the Criticism. I think you make some valid points we really want to consider. I think it more reflects my inability to sum it up well then anything else.
The Schools are called that basically as a bit of Tongue in cheek. The incongruity between what they are and what they're called is entirely intentional.
And yes the Dwarves are very Feudal japan esque. They're technology (particularly metallurgical) is more advanced cause they've been on the world the longest. It's really the influence of the Dragons (who they were basically created to worship) that holds them back culturally.
The continent we're describing is slightly smaller then Eurasia and Hub (the city were the guilds are) is a Major melting pot. Most of the main trade roads all funnel through that area. Hence that cultural clash that we're aiming for.
And we're slowly adding more stuff to this blog twice a week.
But thanks again that's certainly stuff to think about.
Howdy. I'm involved with the project as well, so I thought I'd throw some thoughts.
Big Lemon, thank you for your response. These are exactly the kind of holes in logic that we're hoping to have pointed out to us. I think the comparison to real world culture in Woodengolem's OP is a large culprit to blame for the clash in ideas and what our goals are. Aside from a few anachronisms (samurai for instance) we're trying to take influence from the real world and really spin it into something different to fit into this world.
The idea that the world is young is part of the setting. It's young compared to many other campaign settings. It's essentially in it's second mortal age, the first being the time of the elven empire. Before that was a time of myths and legend when the races were still be created and the gods still walked the lands. Magic is still misunderstood, and carries terrible addictive qualities to those few who do have the ability to cast it.
As for some of the word usage: the use of the word "school" was partly tongue in cheek, partly to shatter the assumptions of the reader. However the usage isn't entirely out of line with what the Mage's are. While certainly thugs, they are united philosophically in their approach to magic, even if their main goals aren't scholarly. As for "guild", we simply haven't found a better term to describe each of the Guild's in the city of Hub that doesn't sound too modern. While the Merchant Guild is very close to being in the traditional definition of the word "guild" (another anachronism), the other four are not and we are going for the modern usage of the word overall when it's used. If we do find a term (for anything really) that we feel fits what we're going for better, than we'll certainly change it but until then we are going with what works for us at the moment.
We certainly have a lot of work to do, and all thoughts, criticism, questions are welcome. There's far more set in stone than what we have revealed on the blog currently: We have the mythology and history down. We know what all the races are and how they all fit into this world. We have all the primary regions of the continent down and know how they fit with each other, as well as major points of civilization within each region and who or what lives there. That being said there are still many things that are in flux and things are still being tweaked. Some stuff is not set in stone and still needs to be fleshed out, which is partly what the blog is for. Our goal is to have info of each of the races, most important factions, and many of the regions up and go from there based off of feedback, criticisms and where we find fault with the material (and we have already).
I like this idea.
That being said, Big Lemon seems to have done you a terrific service ( which you guys acknowledged in a classy manner). I, too, have some of the same concerns, especially regarding the dwarves.
And yet...I think that the Samurai Dwarves are such a compelling idea in their own right, you could make them the centerpiece of their own fantastic setting. In other words, find a way to make that idea work. It is way cool.
As to the Mage Guild/ Gangs, this is probably the only place I really disagree with Big Lemon. I don't think you can totally avoid anachronism when developing a magical fantasy setting. Does it need to be consistent? Yes. But luckily, unlike the real world, you have magic, and it can be used (hopefully, sparingly) to explain certain things that would otherwise not fit.
As to magic, I wonder if you could cut back on the number of spells available from the Core Rulebook(if you go Pathfinder), deciding which ones to keep by figuring out which ones were likely discovered/innovated first.
Then, add an element of chaos/ wild magic by giving spells more random effects, because spell casting hasn't been made a "science" yet.
And to offset the nerfing of the spells and their availability, make them slightly more powerful. So that maybe in the setting's "future", sorcerers and wizards sacrificed a little bit of power for more control and reliability?
Anyway, just some thoughts. Good luck. Samurai dwarves rock.
I like this idea.
That being said, Big Lemon seems to have done you a terrific service ( which you guys acknowledged in a classy manner). I, too, have some of the same concerns, especially regarding the dwarves.
And yet...I think that the Samurai Dwarves are such a compelling idea in their own right, you could make them the centerpiece of their own fantastic setting. In other words, find a way to make that idea work. It is way cool.
As to the Mage Guild/ Gangs, this is probably the only place I really disagree with Big Lemon. I don't think you can totally avoid anachronism when developing a magical fantasy setting. Does it need to be consistent? Yes. But luckily, unlike the real world, you have magic, and it can be used (hopefully, sparingly) to explain certain things that would otherwise not fit.
As to magic, I wonder if you could cut back on the number of spells available from the Core Rulebook(if you go Pathfinder), deciding which ones to keep by figuring out which ones were likely discovered/innovated first.
Then, add an element of chaos/ wild magic by giving spells more random effects, because spell casting hasn't been made a "science" yet.
And to offset the nerfing of the spells and their availability, make them slightly more powerful. So that maybe in the setting's "future", sorcerers and wizards sacrificed a little bit of power for more control and reliability?
Anyway, just some thoughts. Good luck. Samurai dwarves rock.
Thanks Aeris. We appreciate this and we appreciate Big Lemon's thoughts as well. Samurai dwarves was one of the compelling ideas we latched onto when the setting was first devised (I can't take any credit of them, or most of the setting, as a lot of it is Woodengolems brain-child, I just helped flesh it out near it's inception). Initially the world was made up of a lot of divergent thoughts on races. We have moved beyond that, but with the slow reveal on the blog, it feels like we haven't.
Coming up for a cohesive reason for why things work the way they do has been an overwhelming challenge at times. We've been working on this setting for several years now and while the spirit is still there from where we started we have changed a number of things to help make it more cohesive. There's obviously still a lot of stuff being hammered out.
As for your suggestions about magic? We like them. They fall in line with the our concept on how magic works in this world. Briefly, without giving too much away, magic is an overwhelming force that is literally infused into everything. It's elemental in nature (as are most things in this world) and can become highly addictive giving the spell-caster a euphoric high that (may or may not) gives them a boost to their casting abilities. The down-side is sometimes spell-casting can cause quite the opposite effect, creating a painful "low" that is temporarily detrimental to the caster. So both your suggestions on cutting back the number of spells (which I believe is something we had already planned to do) and incorporating chaotic magic elements into the casting are something that we will seriously consider. We have many mechanic hurdles to overcome, but magic is the biggest one.
Also, to avoid the false impression that it is just Woodengolem and I that are working on this project, there are several other folks as well. They either aren't active or not as active on Paizo's boards. (I was at one time far more active here, now I'm a lurker at best). That being said all thoughts and suggestions are being relayed to everybody involved in the project. Woodengolem or myself will be checking this thread daily for the foreseeable future, so please fire away :)
A lot of the original ideas came from a collection of characters that I had created and never got a chance to use back in three five. A Dwarven Samurai, an Orc Rage-Mage, an Ogre Bard, and a Lizardman Barbarian who monkey gripped a great axe.
Eventually after some finagling those four characters turned into the Five Glorious Transcendants. So some of the more Arbitrary choices are ones that are completely arbitrary but one of the great joys I find in life is taking completely random choices and running with them until I get them to work.
Three things I found when starting to read the blog.
1. A map, even a basic one would help a lot with understanding.
2. A quick overview of the entire setting as it was really confusing to read the first couple of posts. So maybe a quick breakdown of major races with key facts, major regions/ countries and key deities. The posts you have are good, they can just be a little difficult to follow where they are going.
3. I found talking about mages as biker gangs left a specific more modern image in my head, perhaps packs might be a better description as it sounds like they opperate in a similar method to wolf packs preying on those weaker than the pack and within the pack the strong rise to the top and the weak are their servants.
Three things I found when starting to read the blog.
1. A map, even a basic one would help a lot with understanding.
2. A quick overview of the entire setting as it was really confusing to read the first couple of posts. So maybe a quick breakdown of major races with key facts, major regions/ countries and key deities. The posts you have are good, they can just be a little difficult to follow where they are going.
3. I found talking about mages as biker gangs left a specific more modern image in my head, perhaps packs might be a better description as it sounds like they operate in a similar method to wolf packs preying on those weaker than the pack and within the pack the strong rise to the top and the weak are their servants.
Thanks for your comments Browman.
1) We have a rough map. This is one of the few really important non-mechanic things we are trying to get finalized. While we do have many things set, there's still some finagling about position of certain areas, what's in specific spots. As soon as we have a reasonable map that isn't subject to major tweaking it will go up.
2) This is something that's come to mind recently. I'm not sure how much we could cover in a 1500 word post, but I like this suggestion and bring it up with the other folks.
3) While biker gang was the inspiration for the Mage's Guild, I tried very hard to avoid making those sorts of direct analogies in the actual post of the Mage's guild. Though given my research on biker gangs (and the handful of people I know who were/are involved with them) it's pretty close to the wolf pack idea. But you're right, even though we took the inspiration from that particular organization finding something that is similar but not associated to the modernity of that group would serve us better in the description.
Thus why I suggested using a wolf pack as a better descriptor, it has a more feral, wild feel to it, without the modern associations. Once you guys have some more stuff up I would be willing to help flesh out some things or work on some mechanical aspects.
It's relatively simply. The next few posts should be:
Races of Desylinn
Religions of Desylinn
Classes in Desylinn
Kingdoms of Desylinn
The above four are the things people want to know first, which is why they tend to be in the beginning of these sorts of books (not necessarily in this order). After you say what the whole setting is like in the most general terms, the player is going to want to know exactly how this is different from the default Pathfinder content, specifically the things that go into making their character. Give them the basics, and then devote longer blocks of writing to the details for each race/religion/kingdom/etc.
It's relatively simply. The next few posts should be:
Races of Desylinn
Religions of Desylinn
Classes in Desylinn
Kingdoms of DesylinnThe above four are the things people want to know first, which is why they tend to be in the beginning of these sorts of books (not necessarily in this order). After you say what the whole setting is like in the most general terms, the player is going to want to know exactly how this is different from the default Pathfinder content, specifically the things that go into making their character. Give them the basics, and then devote longer blocks of writing to the details for each race/religion/kingdom/etc.
You're absolutely right Big Lemon. We have been thinking in such narrow specific ways. Trying to flesh out what we all personally know and have established for ourselves that we couldn't see the forest from the trees here and missed an entire point of the purpose of the blog. None of us are new to gaming, and most of us have a collection (ranging from a few to over-sized) of RPG books in our libraries. Taking that to heart I'm going to encourage the next post be something we should have posted a month ago. Thanks.
To buy ourselves some time, we may finish out the five Guilds first but that's a solid step to take.
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I like a lot of what I've read on the blog so far.
I don't really have a problem with dwarven samurai. Dwarves have long been considered a very lawful race, so building an honor-based culture around their concepts of law and clan relationships is a pretty a organic direction to take them. Even if human society resembles ancient Babylon, there's no reason why the other races have to also belong to that same milieu, particularly, since they are longer-lived, they might have a more advanced culture.
I would nail down some of your other analogies. I agree with the others that calling mages "biker gangs" doesn't quite fit. Packs might be a good idea, or maybe hordes. Maybe sorcerers belong to specific tribal groups and believe that the are naturally superior to mundanes?
Finally, if you don't mind a little design critique about the blog: The black text on a dark background can be difficult to read. I'd go with a more contrasting color scheme.
I like a lot of what I've read on the blog so far.
I don't really have a problem with dwarven samurai. Dwarves have long been considered a very lawful race, so building an honor-based culture around their concepts of law and clan relationships is a pretty a organic direction to take them. Even if human society resembles ancient Babylon, there's no reason why the other races have to also belong to that same milieu, particularly, since they are longer-lived, they might have a more advanced culture.
I would nail down some of your other analogies. I agree with the others that calling mages "biker gangs" doesn't quite fit. Packs might be a good idea, or maybe hordes. Maybe sorcerers belong to specific tribal groups and believe that the are naturally superior to mundanes?
Finally, if you don't mind a little design critique about the blog: The black text on a dark background can be difficult to read. I'd go with a more contrasting color scheme.
It wasn't that I had a problem with Dwarven samurai at all, but that they would seem really odd juxtaposed with Fertile Crescent culture that has absolutely nothing shared with them.
Also, the fact that they live longer wouldn't have anything to do with advanced culture. It doesn't have any effect on the actual passage of time. If a human kingdom and a dwarven kingdom both started at the same time, 100 years later the only difference between them would be fewer dwarves having died of old age. The dwarves didn't have more time to expand their civilization or make discoveries (and then not share them with anyone else). If anything their culture would advance more slowly because it would be more rooted in tradition and in-the-box thinking, but that's not necessarily true either.
It turns out they actually are pretty far apart geographically, so this is actually a non-issue, but I felt the need to explain myself.
I second the comment on the blog's readability. I do most of my interneting on my phone and it's squint-causing to read right now.
Also, add me to the group of dwarven samurai lovers.
*I had no problem with the Biker Gang mage analogy. In fact it works much better for me than does "wolf pack". Consider the popular culture tropes associated with bikers: organised crime; lawless renegades; propensity for violence; hierarchical; internecine rivalry; drug runners; codes of conduct; initiations; short life expectancy. (Apologies to any bikers out thete who feel misrepresented by popular culture...)
All these work perfectly for gangs of renegade arcanists high (actually and metaphorically) on newfound power, with gangs fighting gangs/turfwars, involved in lucrative illegal operations and generally running amok. Bikers are social humanoids, wolf packs are natural constructs of quadrupeds fulfilling ecological rhythms. With Biker gangs you can explore all the minutiae of: crime lords; gang betrayals; organised crime vs the law; gangs as protectors as well as aggressors; juvenile feeder-gangs; turf battles; leadership struggles; undercover action by agents of the law etc.
Note that only a few of those can be drawn from the wolf-pack analogy - though I'm sure someone could easily distil all those tropes into four or five biological and environmentally derived struggles. Not quite as fun though.
Also, given your "early civilization" model, some of these aren't as clear cut, I would however say they can ALL be included - the Thieves World anthology had a great crime lord/group that was well pre-mediaeval in tone.
*Dwarf samurai works for me too. You could just as easily say highly codified, loyalty based valorous warriors within a rigid military/social setting. Samurai is quicker to spell.
Also, the fact that they live longer wouldn't have anything to do with advanced culture. It doesn't have any effect on the actual passage of time. If a human kingdom and a dwarven kingdom both started at the same time, 100 years later the only difference between them would be fewer dwarves having died of old age. The dwarves didn't have more time to expand their civilization or make discoveries (and then not share them with anyone else). If anything their culture would advance more slowly because it would be more rooted in tradition and in-the-box thinking, but that's not necessarily true either.
I'm sorry if I was unclear in my wording. They're more advanced because they've been ON the world longer. There life span has nothing to do with it. It's the fact that during the Mythic age they were one the mortal plane for generations longer then the other races. And they had the dragons who had already developed the seeds of their infrastructure. Just to clarify that point.
And seriously, thanks everybody for reading and the feedback. We REALLY appreciate it.
We have discussed Big Lemon's valid point on the introductory posts, which was an oversight on our part, and a silly one at that. They are coming. However we are going to finish up the Guilds with the next two postings. We have two left, and both are in a state of editing and rewriting now. After that the next several (four to six) posts will all be introductory stuff that gives a better overview of things. This will allow us time to take some of the stuff we have pages of notes on and distill it down to some short cohesive blurbs.
Great Bear and DarkPinkHippo we will seriously consider changing the color scheme to be more contrasting. It's something that will likely happen as soon as possible.
I'm glad folks are diggin' the dwarven samurai. I'm also happy to see a little debate on the Mage's Guild as well.
I think "early civilization" is a misnomer on our part. Part of the idea of the world is that it's still fairly young. That said, there were several proto-civilizations beginning to rise up that were suddenly taken over by a militant empire of elves. The empire was ultimately overthrown, and now the remnants of those early civilization are finally finding themselves again.
Every comment helps. Thanks everybody.
I think "early civilization" is a misnomer on our part. Part of the idea of the world is that it's still fairly young. That said, there were several proto-civilizations beginning to rise up that were suddenly taken over by a militant empire of elves. The empire was ultimately overthrown, and now the remnants of those early civilization are finally finding themselves again.
All the better for socially abberant mage gangs... ;) [EDIT - all the better if some are run/mentored by disgruntled ex Imperial sinister elves with "absence of primacy" issues and an axe to grind with the current regime - bereft of authority and working to derail the former slaves/disenfranchised who are now holding the reigns of power]
All the better for socially abberant mage gangs... ;)I think "early civilization" is a misnomer on our part. Part of the idea of the world is that it's still fairly young. That said, there were several proto-civilizations beginning to rise up that were suddenly taken over by a militant empire of elves. The empire was ultimately overthrown, and now the remnants of those early civilization are finally finding themselves again.
:D
It certainly doesn't hurt.
Edit-Added to my previous post:
all the better if some are run/mentored by disgruntled ex Imperial sinister elves with "absence of primacy" issues and an axe to grind with the current regime - bereft of authority and working to derail the former slaves/disenfranchised who are now holding the reigns of power...
Would not mind at all playing a high sorcerer out to destroy the gang that hurt my family. Not. At. All. :D
I could also have a load of fun running a game built around magical gang warfare. That's pretty happenin' in my campaign.
I really like the idea. If not playing in the setting itself, I think I might really want to use some of its aspects mixed with some from other settings for the game I run.
I was looking at making my own game world as well and start my own 3PP, in the very least I'll give you some feedback since I'll be looking at your stuff to see what potential competition looks like anyway.
Well GM_Solspiral I really loved the feedback you gave me on my wondrous item so I quite appreciate it.
Starting with introduction to the Workman...
I review in bullet points its how I roll...
The Good: As a GM and player I love intrigue heavy settings and this seems to mix the most chaotic elements of communism, democracy and the middle ages guild system in one crazy government of sorts. I can create plots around this as a GM and even if someone isn't interested in your setting they might rob elements of this for kingmaker or in their own homebrew worlds.
The Bad: In the old days you just had to sell a GM on the setting, now a days you have to sell players on it too. There's no lead for a player to inspire them to write a character this article is entirely GM-centric. GMs are out numbered by players you want player money, sell to players.
The Ugly: This is the first thing I read on your page and its like starting a book from the middle. If you intent to use this site to generate interest you need a softer overview type introduction to the overall game world and the type of themes your world will be focusing on. Think of what novelist do with a book jacket, if someone doesn't finish the jacket they aren't buying the book.
Overall: Entirely based on this article I'm left with a limited impression, had I not committed to giving you feedback I may or may not have continued to read (depending on how busy it was at work.) You don't have allot of space to grab a reader, I see potential but that's not opening my wallet. You need to find that element of cool factor that will make both GMs and players drool and lead with it. For Forgotten realms it was the underdark, for dragonlance it was all the interactions with dragons, for Darksun it was the challenge of the environment and everyone was psionic, for Ravenloft it was horror, what makes your product stand out? Why do I want to play in your sand box? If you put it into the other 2 articles throttle your webmaster until he puts that at the top! I'll read the other 2 and give you feedback in a bit.
Edit: Even the info provided at the beginning of this forum post makes for a good introduction. If I just stumbled on your page I'd be like ok... maybe give you 1 paragraph.
At the moment we're just throwing stuff up as we get it finished. Once we get the main stuff up we'll be formatting it for cohesion. At the moment it's sort of as chaotic as a lot of the "governments" we're creating. Once we get the next two guilds up we're going to move to a more player centric model of presentation.
Figuring out our wow factor is actually one of the reasons we're throwing it out there on the blog while we're still in development. I fully recognize that my personal tastes are a little on the Gonzo side of things so we're looking for outside perspectives.
And we're posting new content about twice a week. We'll also be posting bits of short fiction to show this world in action.
This is a learning experience for us, but we're really committed towards making it the best it can possibly be.
Ah I know my hooks well, that's an important step.
"Schools of Mages wander the cities like biker gangs performing brutal acts with the Magic that they're addicted to."
If they get some kind of archetype of different advantages then standard this is a good space to explore.
"And the Kindred, where anyone of any race can become an Orc, Troll, Goblin, Minotaur, or Ogre. "
This could be key too. One of several hooks for my campaign world is centered on letting most the monstrous races be balanced and playable.
Intro to the Mage Guild
The Good I think I just found your lead. This materiel hints at a systyem of magic that perhaps re balances things a bit? The idea of mages being addicted to magic, seven elements, organized in schools that are really just a polite term for gangs makes for an interesting twist.
The Bad I'm already worried for this magic system, pick a number other than 7 its hackneyed (7 deadly sins/virtues) magic can be subdivided further than- also stay of elemental magic been done to DEATH. I'll take gonzo over hackneyed any day of the week.
The Ugly Players want generally to be the good guys, they also want to be the wizard often enough where the idea of them being restricted into these gangs might not be very appealing. Perhaps this is just one city? Look at Dark Sun where mages were either preservers of defilers, the system let you be the good guy.
Overall the Workmans guild promised me some intrigue, this promises me a different take on the white bearded wizard trope. I want to see more, but I'm also have trepidations that this will end up being so focused that you might not want to play something else.
I think the appeal (that I didn't portray well) is in the savage democracy and being part of the Brute Squad. The kind of strange intrigue you get when it's not just physical power but social force.
Barbarian Diplomats rising up to use fist and word to make a difference in the world is what I always imagined. And give folks solid reasons for profession and crafts. Those would give them bonuses to interacting with that guild.
Well without going to far, we have a post on the elements in the works. Which is actually going to be how we modify the alignment system.
And seven is there cause it gives us three pairs of opposites with a more complex element as the seventh. And I realize it's a little on the hackneyed side but think the Subelements and the personality traits they're linked to makes it far more interesting.
Crap you went after the alignment system too... I didn't replace just supplemented.
Also I PMed you, wouldn't mind trying to help a little.
The only reason I did was because Good and Evil don't actually exist. Not as moral ideas but as metaplanar concepts.
There is no Heaven or Hell, no Good Gods (strikes pose) or Bad Gods (Twirls Mustache). It's all sort of gray. The idea that Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos haven't fully codified yet.
Interesting, sounds very moral relativist but I caution that sounds dangerous in terms of it getting to gonzo. Even if the game world has no sense of good and evil your players will have preconceived notions on the subject.
I'm also like wait a minute, finally a setting where I can play a paladin :p
I always wanted to build a Barbarian Monk multiclass so I hear you there. *grins*
I would think that the culture of Dwarves, with their rules, honor, and metalurgy, would lend it'self to Samurai and Paladins. Gnome ninjas would also make some sense.
It's a good fantasy trope where humans who take the path of wizardry become more advanced, in a different way. Your game is about how they started to become so different. Their books and scrolls are made from animal skins or papyrus and cannot be made with a printing press. Instead of street gangs they could be building actual schools and towers where they hoard their new found secrets. The school of time may have been founded by a time traveler from the future. Other humans would still be using rituals and such.
Howdy GM_Solspiral thanks for taking the time to look at this.
You've got some amazingly insightful observations, and I think one thing that we have been lacking is looking at this world from a players perspective. Not that we all don't want to play games in this world, we do, but we are all looking at this creation process with the GM's eye and not considering the flip side.
That being said: Like Woodengolem mentioned, we are going to put up proper introductory overview articles up starting next Thursday with the races of the world.
As for the magic system and the alignments. Both of these are still in flux. We have one model we adopted several years ago that we're not sure about (for magic). We have one individual who's main focus is mechanics and once we have more figured out on this end we'll post more. That being said there will probably be a flavor article out about magic at some point in the near future.
Comment on the Mage's Guild.
The Mage's Guild (and all the Guilds really) are primarily in the city of Hub. They do have some influence outside of Hub, all the Guilds do, but the further away you are the less influence. It is entirely possible for a spellcaster to be a member of one of the other Guilds. Not common, but possible. The Merchant's and the Music Guilds certainly have have spellcasters as members. It's also possible to be a caster and not be a member of the Guild. Dangerous certainly, but possible.
Howdy GM_Solspiral thanks for taking the time to look at this.
You've got some amazingly insightful observations, and I think one thing that we have been lacking is looking at this world from a players perspective. Not that we all don't want to play games in this world, we do, but we are all looking at this creation process with the GM's eye and not considering the flip side.
That being said: Like Woodengolem mentioned, we are going to put up proper introductory overview articles up starting next Thursday with the races of the world.As for the magic system and the alignments. Both of these are still in flux. We have one model we adopted several years ago that we're not sure about (for magic). We have one individual who's main focus is mechanics and once we have more figured out on this end we'll post more. That being said there will probably be a flavor article out about magic at some point in the near future.
Comment on the Mage's Guild.
The Mage's Guild (and all the Guilds really) are primarily in the city of Hub. They do have some influence outside of Hub, all the Guilds do, but the further away you are the less influence. It is entirely possible for a spellcaster to be a member of one of the other Guilds. Not common, but possible. The Merchant's and the Music Guilds certainly have have spellcasters as members. It's also possible to be a caster and not be a member of the Guild. Dangerous certainly, but possible.
It's called a Sorcerer. Far from the hub, there are possibly savage Sorc's who wear pelts and carry flint knives.
It's called a Sorcerer. Far from the hub, there are possibly savage Sorc's who wear pelts and carry flint knives.
Actually at this point in the world's history there is no way for somebody who's not born with power to learn magic. Once you have it you can obviously work towards getting better with it, but you have to have it first.
And given the extreme proud nature of some of the Kindred and their love of their pre-imperial heritage I could totally see folks in Hub wandering around in pelts with flint knives.
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OK gents I have now read the everything you have posted so this is a more educated review of everything I've seen thus far.
The Good -Excellent continuity, with multiple contributors I didn't expect that.
-Ok you have plenty of hooks, the kindred being the strongest appeal to me personally, I'm also fascinated by your lizardwomen, and I have some crazy theories already about the Chaos man.
-I really like the mythology presented thus far, you guys can write a good story and that carries you in places I'm concerned about.
The Bad -I suspect you're going to reinvent the wheel too much. IF you are going for Pathfinder compatibility I'm going to tell you something 3 people told me on the same day... scale it back a little hit people with too many rules changes and they go back to products they are more comfortable with.
The Ugly -Just a caution beware of getting too into the NPCs and having them so involved in everything they overshadow the PCs. This is my chief concern with the music guild for example. I'd be less inclined to want to play a rogue or bard if I'm always going to have an NPC way more powerful than me looking over my shoulder.
Overall I dig your sandbox enough to want to know more, give you moral support, give you critiques even throw a few freelance design projects your way pro bono, but you're not strong enough to get a kickstarter pledge from me yet. I think you could use a different voice or 2 to keep you from going to gonzo and I'd like to see a cleanly evil threat. Perhaps my biggest worry for your project is that while there's plenty there to cause internal strife, there is no clear villain. I get it good, evil, law, and chaos aren't defined yet in your world but I still know what my opinions are on the subject and you need to give me someone to truly hate. The closest I get it that arrogant jerk of a god that I suspect rules the elves. If the Empire was regaining a foothold I'd surely be into fighting them!
The Ugly -Just a caution beware of getting too into the NPCs and having them so involved in everything they overshadow the PCs. This is my chief concern with the music guild for example. I'd be less inclined to want to play a rogue or bard if I'm always going to have an NPC way more powerful than me looking over my shoulder.
I am thinking through this consideration but it made me think that we've created something that gives bards and rogues some of the the same sorts of potential roleplaying controls as Paladins and Clerics have.
I am thinking through this consideration but it made me think that we've created something that gives bards and rogues some of the the same sorts of potential roleplaying controls as Paladins and Clerics have.
Paladins less so but clerics in particular need those controls because of how powerful they are mechanically speaking. Also you plan on throwing out alignment, meaning that you're giving those roleplaying controls to Rogue and Bard while loosening them on paladins and clerics.
This happens when you design with friends, you tend to concur too often, you need outsiders. I learned this when I brought outsiders in on my own project. One I specifically brought on because he and I tend to see completely different approaches to every problem; he makes me better and vice versa.
I tell you this in a sincere desire to see your project succeed, you guys need a developer that hasn't played in your sandbox and has an outsider's eye. Polling the public helps but you want have everything that hits your site for public consumption exposed to an outsider's eye, you need a sounding board.
I was all set on taking my project in a certain direction. I decided to try and grab some quick publishing creds to raise my profile so that if I start a kickstarter my name means something to the community. I took a swing at submitting web content for kobold press and I have at least 2 more articles coming out and I've learned a ton just by getting back a marked up copy from their editor Miranda. I learned a lesson about time management form submitting 2 out of 3 articles for wayfinder. The 3rd I missed the deadline on because I kept redoing the same 5-6 paragraphs. The idea was clutch I ended up being hypercritical of my own work in such a manner that it didn't get done.
My other thread is about making sure I don't repeat that mistake. I give myself deadlines, ask questions where I need to and mostly trust myself to design. I'm getting off on a tangent but the point is expose yourselves to other perspectives and learn from every design experience you can.
~End rant.
What you're talking about there is one of the biggest reasons we did the Open Call, trying to find some fresh perspectives. That and artists.
I am thinking through this consideration but it made me think that we've created something that gives bards and rogues some of the the same sorts of potential roleplaying controls as Paladins and Clerics have.Paladins less so but clerics in particular need those controls because of how powerful they are mechanically speaking. Also you plan on throwing out alignment, meaning that you're giving those roleplaying controls to Rogue and Bard while loosening them on paladins and clerics.
This happens when you design with friends, you tend to concur too often, you need outsiders. I learned this when I brought outsiders in on my own project. One I specifically brought on because he and I tend to see completely different approaches to every problem; he makes me better and vice versa.
I tell you this in a sincere desire to see your project succeed, you guys need a developer that hasn't played in your sandbox and has an outsider's eye. Polling the public helps but you want have everything that hits your site for public consumption exposed to an outsider's eye, you need a sounding board.
I was all set on taking my project in a certain direction. I decided to try and grab some quick publishing creds to raise my profile so that if I start a kickstarter my name means something to the community. I took a swing at submitting web content for kobold press and I have at least 2 more articles coming out and I've learned a ton just by getting back a marked up copy from their editor Miranda. I learned a lesson about time management form submitting 2 out of 3 articles for wayfinder. The 3rd I missed the deadline on because I kept redoing the same 5-6 paragraphs. The idea was clutch I ended up being hypercritical of my own work in such a manner that it didn't get done.
My other thread is about making sure I don't repeat that mistake. I give myself deadlines, ask questions where I need to and mostly trust myself to design. I'm getting off on a tangent but the point is...
Thanks for this and all your comments GM_Solspiral. You've got some awesome advice, and concerns. We all are stumbling a bit here, and your own attempts and what you've done to better yourself helps give me (and likely the others) a bit of insight. I'm probably the most reserved one of the bunch but even I get a little over enthusiastic. The fact that you like this setting enough to want to see it succeed gives me a lot of hope. I also agree with you about bringing somebody completely outside the group in. We are fairly disparate, some of us didn't know each other until we really got going on this project but all of us were friends with Woodengolem, which still leads to the problems you mentioned.
I think you're thought about getting some gaming material out there to things like Wayfinder is a good call just to give us more experience in dealing with design, particularly something that we haven't been neck deep in for ages. It will, as you mentioned, get our name out there.
As for mechanics... I agree with you. That's a fear I think we all have. Finding a solution that does what we hope to do, yet doesn't make the game a burden to play, is the primary goal. A lot of stuff we aim to achieve with some archetypes. That being said Magic is a heavy issue, and is something I think all of us are concerned about.
We are keeping our schedule of two posts a week for the foreseeable future. Much is can be subject to change, though we intend to keep the spirit as much as possible.