Here are some things that rogues FAR EXCEED bards at doing.
- Disarming Traps
Bards can do this fine with the right archetype.
- Setting traps
Given how bad the traps are, I count this as a big meh (and if you like traps, trapper rangers are better).
- Alpha Strikes and single target damage.
I suppose this is true, but sneak attack really isn't that great. People are far more impressed with a pile of dice than they really should be. Also as a 3/4 class with little enough ability to boost to hit, missing doesn't do damage.
- Avoiding Damage (via rogue talents and evasion)
Yes, evasion is nice, but again the correct Bard archetype can get it. I don't really know what rogue talents are going to help much with avoiding damage since your AC is going to be mediocre, and your saves beyond reflex suck.
-Coup de Gras (and nonlethal coup de gras with saps)
That's a pretty specialized ability, and really is rather after the threat is no more. I don't attach much weight to it.
Rogues are also the awesome at Duel Weild builds and multiclassing.
If you want to multiclass a bard.... he will just suck.
Duel wield just means the rogue gets to miss twice as often. Again, people are infatuated with rolling lots of dice without worrying about the actual expected value of their total.
As for multi-classing, sure I don't know that any spellcaster should be multi-classed really. That's because spells are that good. You multi-class because the class you want to use isn't up to speed. Hence a strong desire among rogues to multi-class.
Bards can be effective in combat without standing next to the opponent trying to set up a TWF flanking full-attack (which will still deal less damage than an actual full-BAB's non-flanking full-attack anyhow). Not needing to get into melee range makes them far better at avoiding damage than rogues even before you take into account their access to defensive spells.
Do rogues have any class features that help them set traps? The only class I can think of that does is the ranger.
Rogues are still mediocre at single-target damage because even once you set up their full-attack they're still lagging behind an actual martial. The best assassin isn't someone trained in backstabbing, it's someone trained in frontstabbing.
Their coup de grace is decent so I guess you're good at removing threats that weren't threats anymore anyhow? Woohoo?
"Duel" =/= "Dual." These are different words that mean different things.
Also, you asked who was the better skill monkey. Guess what Sneak Attack doesn't boost at all? (Hint: it's skills.)
Roberta, when you talk about a rogue being mediocre at single-target damage compared to a full-blown martial, are you generalizing across all levels? Or just at high levels? At low levels?
I can't think of any level at which it's false.
A halfling hurler/alchemist frost specialist in 3.5 could maybe have out-damaged a martial, against high AC/low touch AC opponents, but that's out now.
The other possibility would be to get some sort of debilitating (save-or-lose) status condition as a rider on your sneak attack damage, the way the ambush feats in 3.5 worked -- a nauseated, dazed, or stunned opponent is pretty much out of the fight, no matter how many hp he has. However, I can't think of any way to do that in Pathfinder.
So, yeah, I'm with Ms. Yang on this one.
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Roberta Yang, you are being so venomous. You could at least try to be constructive as opposed to shut down everything the OP posted.
OP: I would like to ask you if this is for pathfinder society, or not. If it is not i would talk with your GM and ask about a few third party tools. Some you could use, or you could buy for your GM to add into his campaign that make skill monkey's more viable.
Rogue Glory adds a ton of new options for the rogue and gives them a slight boost to reach bards and rangers in viability. I use it in all the rogues i build that my GM allows.
Doing "Rogue like things" can just be enough, sure bards and rangers can still use poisons but this poison crafting rework can make higher level-poison not suck. Dipping a level into alchemist, ninja, or a poisoner rogue archetype would make it much more viable as well.
Lorefinder adds some amazing rules into the game that make mystery campaigns much more fun.
Honestly, being a skill monkey is totally reliant on your DM, the module you are using, and the players you are playing with. Do you have the opportunity to stealth ahead and do solo things? other players get bored while you are doing this unless they really like listening or they helping in some way. Forum roleplay is great for this. Do you have the opportunity to poison your enemies, climb the mountain to look for clues and interrogate the bad guys? If not then no, skill monkey rogues just aren't viable.
I don't get that, Roberta. I'll fully admit that my understanding of Pathfinder beyond level 8 or so is pretty hazy. I have not played much beyond that level, having only been playing for about a year. I am aware that many folks on here say that the game begins to change around levels 9 and 10, becoming much more lethal.
That being said, I just don't see the disparity, in my PFS games, my home games or in the LGS games I have played in. Granted, most of those games are in the level 1 to 6ish areas, rather than any higher.
I really have no argument for the rogue at higher levels since I have no experience in that area. I have, however, watched smart well-played rogues just absolutely thresh encounters, all while playing alongside smart, well-played bards, barbarians, fighters, alchemists, samurais, summoners and magi.
I'm sure there are groups out there who play at such a high level (skill-wise and/or level-wise) that the mechanic flaws/limitations of the rogue class come to the fore. That they are all so effective at tactics, optimization and implementation that the numbers just can't keep up compared to a Bard or martial...
But I'm an average guy playing average Pathfinder, and I just don't see this massive disparity.
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Roberta Yang, you are being so venomous.
I'll admit that I'm not seeing this at all -- she (gender assumed based on screen name) is asked questions, and answers them directly and honestly. I'd personally call that "helpful," rather than "venemous."
If you asked me, "how do I learn to be a real wizard in real life?" then I, too would answer, "sorry, you can't in real life. You can play a wizard in D&D, or become a stage magician in real life, but arcane magic doesn't really work in real life." I'd anwer that way in the interest of being helpful, not to try and be snide or whatever.
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Roberta Yang, you are being so venomous.I'm not seeing this -- she (gender assumed based on screen name) is asked questions, and answers them directly and honestly. I'd consider that "helpful" rather than "venemous."
Blunt and unfiltered honesty is so rare these days - people are too used to everyone softening things up to spare their feelings - that's easily misinterpreted as aggression or insult.
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Go Archeologist Bard. It trades up the singing and dancing for evasion, uncanny dodge, trapfinding plus, and rogue talents (and you still get the gimped Archeologist's Luck if you need that boost).
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Woohoooooooo
Its all of the sarcasm that is annoying me. This person just wanted to know if he could have a viable build and how to make a viable build. Roberta is essentially saying "rogues are horrible and are beaten by everything ever. don't play them ever ever ever." The OP wants to play a rogue, RPGs are about having fun and you can build a fun and viable character no matter what you build. You can tell someone "This character is less powerful" all you want but If all you do is shut down someones ideas without at least trying to help them i see this as toxic to the thread in general.
Edit: This is also in the conversions thread, not the advice thread. that tells me he is okay with adding 3rd party, (which is why i added 3rd party material to my post) so technically: Yes, rogues are inferior EVERYONE KNOWS THIS! but they are still viable and there are tools out there to make them more powerful. This is what i believe the OP wants.
Actually, for the ultimate Skill Monkey look at the 3pp Scholar Class
You can find it here!
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"rogues are horrible and are beaten by everything ever. don't play them ever ever ever."
Offtopic, but I don't read this anywhere. I do read a lot of real points about the rogue being meh. The rogue doesn't put out much damage if he waste a bunch of feats on twf and the like, he's dependant on something situational, and his gig of skills is easily taken by other classes(which is a good thing, because stopping one person from doing something to give someone else a chance to shine is bad logic.)
That said, the OP was looking how to build a viable rogue without any investment in fighting at all. Which is... Not that good. He'll be better at skills than many of the mundanes but the magic users still have a good chance of doing everything better than him. In combat he'll be meh, and really lacking and outside if he does do much he may be stealing other peoples chances to shine due to his crippling overspecialization. "Oh good time to let the rogue do everything again... Whens combat start?" could turn into the fighters mantra. Not that he had a great life outside of combat before.
It is a fallacy to assume that you need max ranks in a skill to be good at it. You can pick your primary skills at 1st level, put ranks in 'em, and then at 2nd level, grab some secondary skills. From there you can invest ranks every other level. You won't be that far behind, and you'll be able to do other things, too. It will free up resources as well, since you won't have to rely on Skill Focus as badly.
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Here are some things that rogues FAR EXCEED bards at doing.
- Disarming Traps
- Setting traps
- Alpha Strikes and single target damage.
- Avoiding Damage (via rogue talents and evasion)
-Coup de Gras (and nonlethal coup de gras with saps)Rogues are also the awesome at Duel Weild builds and multiclassing.
If you want to multiclass a bard.... he will just suck.I will say that bards have their own specialities and that increasing party damage might "win out" if your party has alot of physical damage being thrown around.... but don't count rogues out.
First of all, nobody actually cares about traps. But assuming that traps matter, and assuming that disabling found traps matter, Bard has your back.
Rogues have 1) the ability to disable magical traps, 2) a bonus to Perception to find them, and 3) a bonus to Disable Device. Trap Sense is a non-ability, and Trap Spotter is not exactly a game changer either.
Bards can take Detective, Archaeologist or Archivist and beat the Rogue at traps. Is it unreasonable to include archetypes? The vast majority of Rogue archetypes give up Trapfinding, so having that ability is an active choice for Rogues too.
Even without archetypes, Bards can spam Sift, Mage Hand, Open/Close and Detect Magic. They cast Detect Secret Doors, Summon Monster, and Erase. Once they gets access to spells like Acute Senses, the contest is all over.
Setting traps....is not a thing.
Setting traps....is not a thing.
Well it is if you have a lot of time, money, and an odd reason to create a large series of traps. Trap construction has rules! They just aren't good if your a PC...
Trapper Rangers can do the jobs mentioned too. A great compromise if you want to play a rogue but want to ditch the 3/4 bab and sneak attack mechanic.
I am not looking for build advice unless you can offer feat choices that will maintain the level of skill monkey I want and offer more combat options.
Now since the feats I want to pick end up giving my key skills a +10 that is a hard to match.
Without max skill ranks and feats invested into the area, a skill monkey rogue is a skill monkey bard without knowledge skills and that is ignoring all the other things the bard can do.
Between the feats and skill mastery that would give me the ability to take a 42 on my highest skills at level 12. Now if that doesn't beat what the bard can do at that level skill wise, I don't know what could.
Now the problem comes up with whether or not that means anything and whether or not a skill monkey can contribute in combat using only skills and sneak attack.
From what I see here that is a resounding NO.
Side note: I posted this in conversations because I wasn't looking for advice just an evaluation on the use of pure skill monkeys in various play settings. But I see that my post has been moved to Advice for some reason. Oh well.
Many skills have a hard cap due to lack of scaling DCs. If you have a 42, you might actually be much higher than you ever needed to be.
In any game I've been in a pure skill monkey quickly turns into a dead weight really. He doesn't do much better than his friends in skills unless the class is built against skills (fighter, pally, cleric...). He actually gets outclassed by wizards and bards in many areas that are skills. When combat comes around he may as well take a break and fetch some good tea and donuts for the party, your snack of choice varying of course.
Side note: I posted this in conversations because I wasn't looking for advice just an evaluation on the use of pure skill monkeys in various play settings. But I see that my post has been moved to Advice for some reason. Oh well.
You posted this on the "Conversions" board, which discusses converting Pathfinder to other things and other things into Pathfinder. For example, several threads discuss how to make Batman and the Avengers in Pathfinder. I think what you wanted was "Discussion."
cheers
When someone asks "How useless is a skill monkey rogue?" and the answer is "pretty useless", I'm going to answer "pretty useless". It's a disservice to answer "all builds are equally useful, go for it!" and condemn the player to a month of being unable to meaningfully contribute until he eventually gives up and switches characters because skill monkey rogues are actually pretty useless. I answer the questions that people ask, and I say woohoo because the rogue class features are really that underwhelming.
On the subject of the strength of rogues in combat, here's a useful illustration: compare the Pathfinder rogue to the 3.5 rogue. Now, 3.5 was the caster editionest caster edition that ever caster editioned, and rogues in it were already by no means good, but they'll serve as a baseline.
In the move to Pathfinder, the full-BAB classes all had their combat capabilities significantly upgraded - fighters got weapon training and armor training, barbarians got awesome rage powers and could rage much more often, and so on. And the monsters all got buffed to compensate - they say that a CR X monster in 3.5 is more like a CR X-1 or CR X-2 monster in Pathfinder.
What did rogues gain, combat-wise, in the move to pathfinder? Well, the list of sneakproof enemies against which they are pretty much outright told not to even bother fighting was reduced, though not eliminated. And... they got the combat trick rogue talent, so at some point they can get one extra combat feat? Finesse Rogue can get you a second one, but that requires you to survive first level with just Str to hit, so it's often not an option unless you feel like sitting out of combat for the first several sessions or you're starting at a higher level and get to build however you want even if your lower-level builds would be non-viable.
Martials got better at fighting. Monsters got better at fighting. But rogues stayed where they were. And let's face it, they weren't exactly great in 3.5 either.
The trouble is that their to-hit is about as bad as it gets. Rogues are MAD. Rogues are encouraged to favor Dex over Str, so that burns a feat and cuts down damage. Rogues are encouraged to TWF to maximize sneak attack, but that gives them another -2 penalty to hit, plus a further penalty because they need to pay twice as much for weapon enhancement bonuses so they lag behind the curve there. Rogues are unique in that they have no class features to boost their to-hit or let them hit touch AC - even monks get to kind of pretend they have full-BAB when they flurry. Oh, and have fun being a light-armored d8 hit die class that really needs to get a melee full-attack and lacks defensive class features. They also have a subtle version of the monk's "have fast movement, but can't use it and flurry" problem - they need to flank to contribute at all, but need to full-attack to use TWF, and can't both move around to flank and full-attack.
Between the feats and skill mastery that would give me the ability to take a 42 on my highest skills at level 12. Now if that doesn't beat what the bard can do at that level skill wise, I don't know what could.
That does not beat what the bard can do at that level. And if you're spending all your feats on stuff like skill focus and acrobatic, the bard will also be far more useful in combat, since sneak attack is almost unusable without feat investment, whereas bards don't need to spend a single feat to use bardic performance or cast spells.
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Don't make a character that a pony animal companion can beat up. Its just wrong.
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Don't see any use in Trapfinding and Trap Sense?
Then take the Swashbuckler archetype, allowing you proficiency in a Martial Weapon of your choice and an extra selection of the Combat Trick talent.
Maximize sneak attack with Friendly Switch, or better yet...
...play with folks who have played a rogue.
It's easier to set up flanks when the folks around you actually understand just how great flanking is and are actively looking for it. Up your hit roll with flanks, higher ground, and most of all, remembering what dang buffs are on the table.
Look, I'm not saying there aren't problems. But from what I have seen at low levels, they are mitigated if not outright negated through smart feat, talent and archetype selection as well as intelligent team play.
Now, I'll admit that my wife and I frequently play as a team, establishing flanks, buffing appropriately and often alpha striking a baddie so that we mitigate damage taken in the best possible way: by killing the dang thing before it can hit us.
I would certainly say with confidence that the amount of sneak attacks we get is far above what someone playing independently would get.
Marthkus,
this is a rogue I'm currently playing. He's been a blast to play -- huge fun. Out. of. Combat.
Roberta overstates the rogue's uselessness at all levels -- he did all right in combat until about 4th level, but since then his combat effectiveness has been sliding lower and lower in general. I'm planning to dip a couple levels of fighter to try to patch that up, but it is probably too late.
Problems :
- AC -- that light armour doesn't do a lot for you without spending a bunch of money on special materials or enhancements.
- to hit bonus -- hitting is a real challenge even on his first attack. And I roll his iterative attacks because I like the sound of dice bouncing, not because I expect to hit anything.
- Sneak Attack -- it was a lot easier to set them up at lower levels. There's a brief period of sunshine coming because a caster in the party has learned Greater Invisibility and is willing to share. Another couple levels and the monsters will probably be able to suss that out.
- Durability -- When he gets hit (see AC above) it's likely to be quite exciting. (I do enjoy the adrenaline rush of wondering if he's going to die at any time in combat.) CR 8 and 9 melee monsters pack a lot of punch.
Other side advice: I concentrated pretty hard on being a skill monkey. 14 inteliigence. Dropped the favored class point in skills. But I also tried to round him out with a 14 strength and 12 Constitution and 12 Charisma. He has more than enough skill points and was a pretty good party face until the paladin joined the group.
But I think I spread him too thin. I sometimes wish I'd put the favored class points into HP, usually right before a fight. I could have concentrated on fewer skills and probably dumped Charisma.
But he is still fun to play. I hope he has a long successful career.
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So how do we justify that steal uses CMB instead of sleight-of-hand? Sleight-of-hand even has DCs for stealing things from people. I'm not saying those aren't the rules, but what sort of non-meta sense do they make?
We shouldn't. It was a dumb design decision. Stealing in combat should be based off the Sleight of Hand skill, just as it is for out of combat. Feinting is a combat action, works off of bluff, and incorporates BAB. And it works fine (well, I don't think it's worth using, but mechanically it works fine). There's no good reason at all the same could not be true for SoH. We didn't need a "Steal maneuver."
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What did rogues gain, combat-wise, in the move to pathfinder? Well, the list of sneakproof enemies against which they are pretty much outright told not to even bother fighting was reduced, though not eliminated. And... they got the combat trick rogue talent, so at some point they can get one extra combat feat? Finesse Rogue can get you a second one, but that requires you to survive first level with just Str to hit, so it's often not an option unless you feel like sitting out of combat for the first several sessions or you're starting at a higher level and get to build however you want even if your lower-level builds would be non-viable.
Martials got better at fighting. Monsters got better at fighting. But rogues stayed where they were. And let's face it, they weren't exactly great in 3.5 either.
Now hold on one minute here! Rogues did NOT stay the same, that is a huge disservice to the 3.5E rogue! Tumble DCs going from flat DC 15 to suicidally hard; blinking no longer granting SA; splash weapons no longer granting SA; grease no longer granting full attack SA (now you have to ready to use it on the monster's turn) and many more monster likely having the ranks to not be flatfooted by it...
The PF rogue in no way shape or form stayed in place with the 3E rogue in combat! In 3E, flanking was cheap and easy, ranged SA just required a ring of blinking, and for the price of some flasks, I could dish out obscene damage when necessary.
I love rouges.....but I have to agree with Roberta Yang. But one simple fix make rouges worth it would be change Sneak attack Dice from d6 to d8.
OP, as others said off the bat, if you want a skill monkey, be a Bard.
By the time you get your 2nd Versatile Performance at 6th level, you'll be equal to the rogue in skill points effectively (and that's with the outlook that the points in the Perform skills themselves are "a waste" or "don't count"), and surpass him at 10th. You'll get phat bonuses on knowledge checks, and later on the ability to use skills untrained and then the ability to take 10 on *any* skill (rogue can get it earlier, but only on a few skills, and arguably not on UMD, the skill you most want to take 10 on). Nevermind having the performances and spellcasting to supplement your utility.
Bard is the best skill monkey in PF.
Do rogues have any class features that help them set traps?
They get a couple talents that actually look kind of cool, Cunning Trigger and Quick Trapsmith. But the talents are not nearly as well defined as they need to be (hard rules on what traps you can make and how, etc...), so the whole thing relies way too much on DM fiat for my liking. With a very nice DM who wants to make it work, you could presumably be a cool trapper rogue that sneaks around before the combat laying traps and then during the fight calmly sets them off each round as needed. Or you could just be a spellcaster and have a set of abilities completely defined by the rules where you know what you can actually do w/o having to discuss at length with the DM.
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I know you were not seeking build advice, but since this got moved to the advice forum!
Str: 10 +0
Dex: 17 +3 (15 base, +2 racial)
Con: 12 +1 (12 base)
Int: 15 +2 (15 base)
Wis: 12 +1 (12 base)
Cha: 12 +1 (12 base)
So that's how I would build this character. One point into Dex and Int at levels 4 and 8 (you choose which one first).
To me this guy is average strength, extremely nimble, very smart, above average health, common sense, will power and looks and is generally likeable.
For feats, Skill Focus Acrobatics and Dodge at 1st level. Grab a light crossbow or short bow and attack from range.
2nd: Finesse Rogue for Weapon Finesse.
3rd: Skill Focus Perception to cement your place as the trapfinder (or anything finder really).
4th: Trap Spotter, so you don't miss anything.
5th: Skill Focus: Stealth
6th: Weapon Training for Weapon Focus (whatever weapon you choose).
7th: Skill Focus: Disable Device
8th: Combat Trick for Mobility
9th: Spring Attack
10th: Skill Mastery
So at level 10 your base skills are:
Acrobatics +23, Bluff +14, Diplomacy +14, Disable Device +23, Disguise +14, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +16, Knowledge (local) +16, Perception +20, Sense Motive +14, Sleight of Hand +17, Stealth +23, Use Magic Device +14
I would put the favored class point into Hit Points, but if not you can get another skill. And of course skills can be swapped out for other ones. Probably Alertness at 11th for +4 to Perception and Sense Motive?
Anyway, this guys isn't the greatest in combat, but with his Acrobatics and eventually Spring Attack he can get to where he needs to be when it counts. Otherwise he should stay out of the way, try not to get hit and look for an opportunity to be useful.
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Now the problem comes up with whether or not that means anything and whether or not a skill monkey can contribute in combat using only skills and sneak attack.
From what I see here that is a resounding NO.
Pretty much. You will need to invest some feats in combat, and some rogue talents too.
However, do not forget Use Magic Device, it's one of your most critical skills. Wand of shield and you have +4 AC in any fight that breaks out. Wand of bull's strength and you have extra hit points, and that covers your two biggest issues in a fight. If you are always looking for flanking, then hitting isn't too bad, but give it every boost you can.
I'm playing in the same game as Romon, above, and the rogue is definitely a LOT of fun to have around, and does a lot of useful stuff for the party.
If you have no desire to be of any use in a fight, then you might as well play an expert so that you can pick what your class skills are.
Rogue is a challenging class to play well, since a lot of your effectiveness in a fight depends directly on your fellow players.
If your fellow players don't give a damn about giving you flanking or otherwise enabling you to get sneak attacks, then yeah, you're going to suck.
If you actually have other players that are actually willing to spare a precious buff spell to help you out or otherwise work with you, you can kick quite a bit of ass.
Of course, you actually need to invest in being worth giving the opportunity to.
My own rogue in the Serpent's Skull AP did things like ambush and kill a roper before it could react, solo rooms with small encounters (when he deemed them not worth the full party's time), re-rigged traps to use against foes, etc. He also had a level of fighter, because having full martial proficiency is a huge boon.
I won't deny that a ninja with his exact build would be better in just about any fight he handled, but he was still pretty good. And the ninja would've been stopped by symbol spells.
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I know you were not seeking build advice, but since this got moved to the advice forum!
Str: 10 +0
Dex: 17 +3 (15 base, +2 racial)
Con: 12 +1 (12 base)
Int: 15 +2 (15 base)
Wis: 12 +1 (12 base)
Cha: 12 +1 (12 base)So that's how I would build this character. One point into Dex and Int at levels 4 and 8 (you choose which one first).
To me this guy is average strength, extremely nimble, very smart, above average health, common sense, will power and looks and is generally likeable.
For feats, Skill Focus Acrobatics and Dodge at 1st level. Grab a light crossbow or short bow and attack from range.
2nd: Finesse Rogue for Weapon Finesse.
3rd: Skill Focus Perception to cement your place as the trapfinder (or anything finder really).
4th: Trap Spotter, so you don't miss anything.
5th: Skill Focus: Stealth
6th: Weapon Training for Weapon Focus (whatever weapon you choose).
7th: Skill Focus: Disable Device
8th: Combat Trick for Mobility
9th: Spring Attack
10th: Skill MasterySo at level 10 your base skills are:
Acrobatics +23, Bluff +14, Diplomacy +14, Disable Device +23, Disguise +14, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +16, Knowledge (local) +16, Perception +20, Sense Motive +14, Sleight of Hand +17, Stealth +23, Use Magic Device +14I would put the favored class point into Hit Points, but if not you can get another skill. And of course skills can be swapped out for other ones. Probably Alertness at 11th for +4 to Perception and Sense Motive?
Anyway, this guys isn't the greatest in combat, but with his Acrobatics and eventually Spring Attack he can get to where he needs to be when it counts. Otherwise he should stay out of the way, try not to get hit and look for an opportunity to be useful.
I wasn't looking for build advice, but then you throw all this good advice at me! Way to capture what I was going for, while improving the combat ability.
The build posted burns 4 feats on combat. If your going to do that why not just nab TWF?
If you are going to be such an underpowered build, take all the help you can get. And yes, by RAW that is on top of normal favored class bonus.
Don't get mad at me, I'm not the one that wrote it.
I wasn't looking for build advice, but then you throw all this good advice at me! Way to capture what I was going for, while improving the combat ability.I know you were not seeking build advice, but since this got moved to the advice forum!
Str: 10 +0
Dex: 17 +3 (15 base, +2 racial)
Con: 12 +1 (12 base)
Int: 15 +2 (15 base)
Wis: 12 +1 (12 base)
Cha: 12 +1 (12 base)So that's how I would build this character. One point into Dex and Int at levels 4 and 8 (you choose which one first).
To me this guy is average strength, extremely nimble, very smart, above average health, common sense, will power and looks and is generally likeable.
For feats, Skill Focus Acrobatics and Dodge at 1st level. Grab a light crossbow or short bow and attack from range.
2nd: Finesse Rogue for Weapon Finesse.
3rd: Skill Focus Perception to cement your place as the trapfinder (or anything finder really).
4th: Trap Spotter, so you don't miss anything.
5th: Skill Focus: Stealth
6th: Weapon Training for Weapon Focus (whatever weapon you choose).
7th: Skill Focus: Disable Device
8th: Combat Trick for Mobility
9th: Spring Attack
10th: Skill MasterySo at level 10 your base skills are:
Acrobatics +23, Bluff +14, Diplomacy +14, Disable Device +23, Disguise +14, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +16, Knowledge (local) +16, Perception +20, Sense Motive +14, Sleight of Hand +17, Stealth +23, Use Magic Device +14I would put the favored class point into Hit Points, but if not you can get another skill. And of course skills can be swapped out for other ones. Probably Alertness at 11th for +4 to Perception and Sense Motive?
Anyway, this guys isn't the greatest in combat, but with his Acrobatics and eventually Spring Attack he can get to where he needs to be when it counts. Otherwise he should stay out of the way, try not to get hit and look for an opportunity to be useful.
The human variant that gives skill focus at lvls 1, 8 and 16 may actually be better for this build since it gives you some free feat slots, especially since you picked a skill focus at lvl 1 anyway. It gives you 2 more skill focus feats for free, and you don't even have to change the build.
The build posted burns 4 feats on combat. If your going to do that why not just nab TWF?
Because he's going for Spring Attack for in-and-out and expose himself to the least harm. TWFers have to stand there and slug it out, and that means a net -2 to hit with each attack when he's got enough problems hitting things as it is. Going TWF angainst a strong foe will mean LESS hits and less damage than not.
A big part of the issue is what the other classes in the party are. If there's a fighter, a sorcerer and a cleric, all non-human who dump Int, then you will feel useful. In fact you'll feel absolutely vital, because you'll have 4/5 of the skill points in the whole party.
OTOH, if the other PCs are a ranger, a wizard and a druid, you'll be a forgotten afterthought because they can do almost everything you can do, and probably better.
A big part of the issue is what the other classes in the party are. If there's a fighter, a sorcerer and a cleric, all non-human who dump Int, then you will feel useful. In fact you'll feel absolutely vital, because you'll have 4/5 of the skill points in the whole party.
Being good becuase everyone else is bad has never been the best logic or balance I don't think.
A big part of the issue is what the other classes in the party are. If there's a fighter, a sorcerer and a cleric, all non-human who dump Int, then you will feel useful. In fact you'll feel absolutely vital, because you'll have 4/5 of the skill points in the whole party.
And even then, there's a fair chance that the Cleric and Sorcerer will make you feel rather useless ar least half of the time.
Make your first level feats Fast Learner and Skill Focus (Use Magic Device).
Fast Learner is pretty cool, I didn't know about that one. The thing is that it is really not much different than just taking the skill points from your favored class and then getting the Toughness feat. They would stack though, so there is that.
The human variant that gives skill focus at lvls 1, 8 and 16 may actually be better for this build since it gives you some free feat slots, especially since you picked a skill focus at lvl 1 anyway. It gives you 2 more skill focus feats for free, and you don't even have to change the build.
Good advise. I'm kinda a Core rulebook guy, so I miss a lot of these little goodies.
Here are some things that rogues FAR EXCEED bards at doing.
- Disarming Traps
- Setting traps
- Alpha Strikes and single target damage.
- Avoiding Damage (via rogue talents and evasion)
-Coup de Gras (and nonlethal coup de gras with saps)Rogues are also the awesome at Duel Weild builds and multiclassing.
If you want to multiclass a bard.... he will just suck.I will say that bards have their own specialities and that increasing party damage might "win out" if your party has alot of physical damage being thrown around.... but don't count rogues out.
Coup De Grace is rarely used, and is normally done better by the barbarian with the scythe
evasion only applies to reflex saves, and the damage avoided by a reflex save is quite pitiful, compared to the damage of being smacked by a full attack from any nonrogue or nonmonk weapon user who didn't neglect strength. hell, a single attack from a martial or pseudomartial character will outperform most Reflex Save based spells
Alpha Strikes and Single Target Damage? Sneak attack requires an ally to set up. so you could argue that a flanking buddy is responsible for half the Rogue's Sneak Attack DPR. plus, due to the heavy attribute requirements of the rogue due to a lack of good fortitude and will saves, and due to a lack of ability to augment their attack bonus, that they won't have a very high strength and will use weapon finesse to compensate, which then requires agile weapons, which are an obscure enchantment from an obscure sourcebook.
Setting Traps? setting traps goes under craft (Trapmaking). a rarely used skill that neither place much investment in. neither class recieves a bonus to this skill.
Disarming Traps? bards have 2 archetypes that grant this ability and the majority of rogue archetypes sacrifice it. even the ninja, allegedly the best rogue archetype, sacrifices it.
nothing stops a bard from breakdancing while firing a bow, which while ridiculous in the real world, is actually a powerful combination in pathfinder.
I never understood Fast Learner. Just take Toughness and the skill point.
Fast Learner only makes sense if you want the skill point and the alternate class reward. Not HP.
I suggest bard (archeologist) 4/ rogue X. All you really need is a cha of 12 to pull it off. It gives you lots of skill monkey goodies, boosts your will save, gives you some magic, and your to hit and damage with archeologist luck.
I never understood Fast Learner. Just take Toughness and the skill point.
Fast Learner only makes sense if you want the skill point and the alternate class reward. Not HP.
Fast Learner can be combined with Toughness and you can get the benefits of both