Greater Invisibility and Melee Fighting / Stealthing


Rules Questions


An enemy has greater invisibility and attempts to stealth. He also attacks someone in melee.

Would the target automatically know what square his target was in after a hit? Or would he have to roll a Perception check to figure it out?

I guess this would also go for someone getting attacked in total darkness.

I know that the attacker would take a -20 to his stealth check, but if his stealth score is really high without invisibility, he might still be difficult to detect.


davidernst11 wrote:

An enemy has greater invisibility and attempts to stealth. He also attacks someone in melee.

Would the target automatically know what square his target was in after a hit?

Invisibility: "If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location."


Neat, this has been plaguing me for a while. I've seen it ran wrong in the past, so glad to see the specific rule. Thanks.


There's no -20 to stealth either (though could be a minus for moving at full speed), because they have concealment the entire time.


Majuba wrote:
There's no -20 to stealth either (though could be a minus for moving at full speed), because they have concealment the entire time.

It's not a penalty to stealth, it's a penalty to the perception check to locate the invisible creature. Concealment has nothing to do with it.

If an invisible creature is in combat, and uses stealth to move at half speed, the Perception DC to locate him is DC 55 +Stealth Check (+Distance). Or, depending on how you read one of the charts, DC 35 +Stealth Check (+Distance).

I detailed all the modifiers and rules in a couple posts here.


20+Stealth to notice movement (as... *shiver* RavingDork pointed out, no penalty for moving half speed)

40+Stealth to pinpoint.


Majuba wrote:

20+Stealth to notice movement (as... *shiver* RavingDork pointed out, no penalty for moving half speed)

40+Stealth to pinpoint.

I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say, here.

Are you talking about during combat, or outside of combat? And by 'notice movement' do you mean "notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet" or do you mean pinpoint the square?

Dark Archive

To notice movement? Is that about moving from one square to another? What about actions like reloading a crossbow or pulling back a bow to fire? I would think the act of attacking would also count as movement for that turn, even if the player claimed they freeze after the attack while still invisible from greater invisibility. Anyone got answers for those?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Grick wrote:
Majuba wrote:
There's no -20 to stealth either (though could be a minus for moving at full speed), because they have concealment the entire time.

It's not a penalty to stealth, it's a penalty to the perception check to locate the invisible creature. Concealment has nothing to do with it.

If an invisible creature is in combat, and uses stealth to move at half speed, the Perception DC to locate him is DC 55 +Stealth Check (+Distance). Or, depending on how you read one of the charts, DC 35 +Stealth Check (+Distance).

I detailed all the modifiers and rules in a couple posts here.

Grick, I think your assumptions are wrong. You say:

Grick wrote:

Stealth Time!

Mage uses Stealth to move at half speed: DC 55+SC+D

Base DC 20
+20 Invisible
-20 In Combat
-5 Moving Half Speed
+20 Using Stealth
+20 Bonus to the Stealth Check
+SC (Actual Stealth Check, not including bonus)
+Distance

Mage somehow uses Stealth without moving: DC 80+SC+D

Base DC 20
+20 Invisible
-20 In Combat
+20 Using Stealth
+40 Bonus to the Stealth Check
+SC (Actual Stealth Check, not including bonus)
+Distance

However! If the assumption is the chart listing for "Invisible creature is Using Stealth" is intended to be/include the same bonus listed in the stealth skill, that puts the DC at a slightly more reasonable value.

Moving half speed: DC 35+SC+D

Base DC 20
+20 Invisible
-20 In Combat
-5 Moving Half Speed
+20 Bonus to the Stealth Check
+SC (Actual Stealth Check, not including bonus)
+Distance

Not Moving DC 60+SC+D

Base DC 20
+20 Invisible
-20 In Combat
+40 Bonus to the Stealth Check
+SC (Actual Stealth Check, not including bonus)
+Distance

But you are always counting the same bonus two times.

It is not:
Base DC 20 (to notice someone invisible)
+20 Invisible (for him being invisible)

From perception it is:
Notice a visible creature 0
+20 Invisible
for a total DC or 20 (or 40 if he is immobile)

If you look the invisibility special ability you find this:

PRD wrote:
A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack. It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check. Even once a character has pinpointed the square that contains an invisible creature, the creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).

that is where you ah taken your idea that it is a base 20 DC plus the 20 from the spell, but that piece of the test continue citing all the applicable modifiers:

PRD wrote:

Invisible creature is... Perception

In combat or speaking –20
Moving at half speed –5
Moving at full speed –10
Running or charging –20
Not moving +20
Using Stealth Stealth check +20
Some distance away +1 per 10 feet
Behind an obstacle (door) +5
Behind an obstacle (stone wall) +15

As you can see there is no +20 for being invisible. It is assumed in the base DC of 20.

The perception and invisibility special ability rules are saying the same thing: if you are invisible you get a +20 to the DC of spotting someone doing the same thing that isn't invisible, but the invisibility special ability assume that the guy doing that is invisible so it subsume the modifier in the DC of spotting him and remove it from the applicable modifiers.

Adding the two part of the rules together without noticing that ended with your DC 20+20 result.

And you compound it several times adding the +20 for being invisible more than once in your example.

It is not DC 20 for being invisible, +20 for being invisible, plus stealth skill check result +20 for being invisible.
It is stealth check +20 for being invisible. Once.


Diego Rossi wrote:

It is not:

Base DC 20 (to notice someone invisible)
+20 Invisible (for him being invisible)

From perception it is:
Notice a visible creature 0
+20 Invisible
for a total DC or 20

You're saying it's exactly the same difficulty to notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet as it is to pinpoint an invisible creature's location, even though the latter is "practically impossible"?

It's clearly supposed to be more difficult to pinpoint an invisible creature than it is to just notice one is nearby. Applying the modifier (+20 DC) to a different task that results in the same DC doesn't make any sense.


Raymond Lambert wrote:
To notice movement?

Context?

Raymond Lambert wrote:
Is that about moving from one square to another?

Moving at half speed and Moving at full speed both have modifiers to the perception check needed to pinpoint an invisible creature.

Raymond Lambert wrote:
What about actions like reloading a crossbow or pulling back a bow to fire?

Those actions to not have modifiers to the perception check needed to pinpoint an invisible creature.

Raymond Lambert wrote:
I would think the act of attacking would also count as movement for that turn, even if the player claimed they freeze after the attack while still invisible from greater invisibility.

It doesn't count as movement, it counts as being in combat, which has a modifier to the perception check needed to pinpoint an invisible creature. (And if you don't move after the attack, they automatically know the location unless you're attacking with reach)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Grick wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

It is not:

Base DC 20 (to notice someone invisible)
+20 Invisible (for him being invisible)

From perception it is:
Notice a visible creature 0
+20 Invisible
for a total DC or 20

You're saying it's exactly the same difficulty to notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet as it is to pinpoint an invisible creature's location, even though the latter is "practically impossible"?

It's clearly supposed to be more difficult to pinpoint an invisible creature than it is to just notice one is nearby. Applying the modifier (+20 DC) to a different task that results in the same DC doesn't make any sense.

1) Nowhere your post speak of pinpointing, so the basic assumption is that you are speaking of noticing the invisible character;

2) there is specific modifier to pinpoint the target square "It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check." but that is not the +20 modifier to being invisible that you listed, it a +20 modifier to pinpoint the location of a invisible character.

So it is:

To notice the presence of a invisible character using stealth:
DC 15+SC+D

Base DC 0
+20 Invisible
-5 Moving Half Speed
+SC (Actual Stealth Check, not including bonus for being invisible)
+Distance

To pinpoint his location:
DC 35+SC+D
Base DC 0
+20 Invisible
-5 Moving Half Speed
+SC (Actual Stealth Check, not including bonus for being invisible)
+Distance
+20 to pinpoint the location of a invisible character

If the character has attacked someone and is trying to hide he can't use stealth unless he is sniping.
So pinpointing him become a very manageable
DC 20+D
Base DC 0
+20 Invisible
-20 for attacking and so being in combat
+Distance
+20 to pinpoint the location of a invisible character

As the character has attacked he can't claim to be not moving, so he don't get the extra +20 for that.


Diego Rossi wrote:
1) Nowhere your post speak of pinpointing, so the basic assumption is that you are speaking of noticing the invisible character;

The whole thing is about pinpointing. I figured that was fairly clear since every line in those posts builds on the one above it.

Diego Rossi wrote:
Base DC 0

Why would you base everything on the DC to "Notice a visible creature" instead of the DC to notice an invisible creature?

Diego Rossi wrote:
If the character has attacked someone and is trying to hide he can't use stealth unless he is sniping.

That's not true at all, he just needs to not be seen (concealment, etc.) and use stealth as part of movement.

Diego Rossi wrote:
As the character has attacked he can't claim to be not moving, so he don't get the extra +20 for that.

If the invisible creature attacks from adjacent then doesn't move, then the guy he hit has automatically pinpointed him.


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If the base DC was 0 wouldn't you eventually hit negative DCs? The description of Invisibility shows the base DC to be 20 pretty plainly, imo. Then you tack on +20 to pinpoint, and/or adjust based on the table. It looks like Grick has the right of it to me.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Grick wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Base DC 0

Why would you base everything on the DC to "Notice a visible creature" instead of the DC to notice an invisible creature?

Because there is not a "notice an invisible creature" DC of 20 under the perception skill. there is a base of 0 plus a modifier of +20.

What you are using is under the invisibility special ability, but the modifiers present in that section don't have a invisibility modifier.
The DC 20 to notice an invisible creature in that section subsume the +20 modifier for the creature being invisible.

You are adding together two rules without noticing that the part under the invisibility special ability already include the modifier for being invisible.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Herbo wrote:
If the base DC was 0 wouldn't you eventually hit negative DCs? The description of Invisibility shows the base DC to be 20 pretty plainly, imo. Then you tack on +20 to pinpoint, and/or adjust based on the table. It looks like Grick has the right of it to me.

Read my post, not only Grick cut and pate.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Read my post, not only Grick cut and paste.

Sorry for coming out of left field in the midst of your discussion with Grick. That was impolite and indelicate of me. But there's no need to assume I am incapable of reading just because I don't share your interpretation. I'll leave you to it. Cheers.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Herbo wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Read my post, not only Grick cut and paste.
Sorry for coming out of left field in the midst of your discussion with Grick. That was impolite and indelicate of me. But there's no need to assume I am incapable of reading just because I don't share your interpretation. I'll leave you to it. Cheers.

Maybe my reply was impolite, but if you think that I am in error you should try to explain what is the error in my post. Taking a piece of it without addressing the whole argument isn't the way to do that.

The key part of my argument is that you have the basic difficulty of noticing a person in the open or a person doing whatever action the invisible character is doing and then you add the +20 from invisibility, Grick argument is that you start with the difficulty of seeing an invisible character, then you add the +20 of the invisibility then you add the action the character is doing, often adding again a +20 because he is invisible.

Herbo wrote:
If the base DC was 0 wouldn't you eventually hit negative DCs? The description of Invisibility shows the base DC to be 20 pretty plainly, imo. Then you tack on +20 to pinpoint, and/or adjust based on the table. It looks like Grick has the right of it to me.

Fun part: actually that is my argument.

Under the perception rules. you have a base of 0 and then the +20 from invisibility, for a total DC of 20 (40 to pinpoint).
Under the invisibility rules you have a DC of 20 that already include the invisibility modifier. As you said you only add the +20 to pinpoint, not the +20 from invisibility and then the +20 from pinpoint.

So I must amend my statement to read the post from Grick that i cited from the other thread or read the post in the thread he linked.

Grick wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
As the character has attacked he can't claim to be not moving, so he don't get the extra +20 for that.
If the invisible creature attacks from adjacent then doesn't move, then the guy he hit has automatically pinpointed him.

Actually the target has pinpointed the square from which the attack came but he don't know if the attacker has moved after attacking.

It the invisible character move after attacking, even a 5' square, the target would get a reactive perception check to try to pinpoint his new location. As making a reactive check only if the invisible character move would give in game informations with our of game actions the best way is to always ask for a reactive check.

If he has failed the check he can:
* attack the square from which the attack came, hoping the invisible attacker is still there;
* use a move action to try to pinpoint the invisible character and then attack whatever square he like.


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Diego Rossi wrote:
Grick wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Base DC 0
Why would you base everything on the DC to "Notice a visible creature" instead of the DC to notice an invisible creature?
Because there is not a "notice an invisible creature" DC of 20 under the perception skill.

It doesn't matter if you use the "notice a visible creature" task, then add 20, or if you use the "notice the presence of an active invisible creature" DC that is listed in invisibility, they both end up at 20.

So we all agree the base DC to notice an invisible creature is 20. And as such, to pinpoint it, is a +20 modifier, resulting in a base DC to pinpoint an invisible creature of 40.

Now, if the invisible creature is moving or engaged in a noisy activity, there are modifiers we apply based on the table under invisibility.

I'll assume the invisible character is not in combat, but is moving (so he can use stealth), lets say he's moving at half his speed.

So our DC of 40 from earlier gets modified by whatever things in the table apply.

He's not "In combat or speaking", so strike that one.
He's "Moving at half speed" so apply a -5 modifier.
He's not "Moving at full speed" so ignore it.
He's not "Running or charging" ignore.
He's not "Not moving" because he's moving.
He is "Using Stealth" so add "Stealth check +20" to the DC.
He may be "Some distance away" so let's add "+1 per 10 feet"
He's not "Behind an obstacle (door)"
Nor is he "Behind an obstacle (stone wall)"

So Base DC 40, -5 (moving half) +SC+20 (Stealth) +Distance results in DC 55 +Stealth Check +Distance.

So let's say this invisible creature is in combat. Everything else is exactly the same, except we use the modifier from the table for "In combat or speaking" which is -20. That means the DC to pinpoint him now that he's in combat is DC 35 +Stealth Check +Distance, which is what I said in my post from the other thread.

You're hung up on the way I broke things apart, just rename "+20 Invisible" with "+20 Pinpoint" or something and it will all make sense. The reason it was labeled that way was, as I said, "The reason I'm breaking out the base 20 from the +20 from being invisible is to fit with the increase in DC listed in the Perception skill."

Lets use your example from earlier.

Diego Rossi wrote:

To pinpoint his location:

DC 35+SC+D
Base DC 0
+20 Invisible
-5 Moving Half Speed
+SC (Actual Stealth Check, not including bonus for being invisible)
+Distance
+20 to pinpoint the location of a invisible character

This is incorrect, because you did not include the proper modifier for using stealth.

As you can see from the chart, If the Invisible creature is... "Using Stealth" then the Perception modifier is "Stealth check +20"

So your calculations with my addition in blue:

Base DC 0
+20 Invisible
-5 Moving Half Speed
+SC (Actual Stealth Check, not including bonus for being invisible)
+20 (bonus from using Stealth)
+Distance
+20 to pinpoint the location of a invisible character

Results in DC 55+SC+D.

Note: It's assumed that if you're using stealth, you're moving. This is why the invisibility table says "Stealth check +20" it's including the "+20 bonus on Stealth checks if you're moving" which is detailed under the Stealth skill. This is not the same as the "Creature or object is invisible" modifier listed under Perception.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Grick wrote:


He is "Using Stealth" so add "Stealth check +20" to the DC.

Here is where we disagree (and the other times you add invisibility twice).

You don't add using stealth +20 to the base of 20 as you are adding invisibility twice.

Using stealth while invisible is your stealth check result +20 (with another +20 to pinpoint your location), full stop.
Not 20 for being invisible, +20 for pinpointing, +20 for being invisible added again +your stealth check result.

You are adding the +20 for being invisible twice.

It could be written better but all the other modifiers to the perception check are +X, this one is stealth+20. You don't add it to the check, it is the target check.

You do that several times in your example:

Grick wrote:


Stealth Time!

Mage uses Stealth to move at half speed: DC 55+SC+D

Base DC 20 added invisibility once
+20 Invisible pinpointing the invisible creature, even if it is not specified by Grick
-20 In Combat
-5 Moving Half Speed
+20 Using Stealth
+20 Bonus to the Stealth Check added invisibility twice
+SC (Actual Stealth Check, not including bonus)
+Distance

Mage somehow uses Stealth without moving: DC 80+SC+D

Base DC 20 added invisibility once
+20 Invisible pinpointing the invisible creature, even if it is not specified by Grick
-20 In Combat
+20 Using Stealth
+40 Bonus to the Stealth Check added +20 for invisibility and +20 for being immobile, as you have already added the +20 for being invisible you should add only +20
+SC (Actual Stealth Check, not including bonus)
+Distance

Bolded parts are mine.


What happens if the hidden creature isn't technically "invisible" but is still "not visible" to whatever is trying to pinpoint them?

Do all these modifiers for being "invisible" still apply?

For example, say they're stealthing through the area of a darkness or mist spell and the creature attempting to pinpoint doesn't have line of sight.

Thanks.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Using stealth while invisible is your stealth check result +20 (with another +20 to pinpoint your location), full stop.

The DC to notice an invisible creature is 20.

That DC increases by +20 if you want to pinpoint it.
That DC is further modified by the table under certain circumstances.

The table says if the creature is using stealth, the perception check DC is modified by the stealth check +20.

That +20 is a bonus to the stealth check.

That is NOT the same as the base DC to notice an invisible creature, because it only applies when using stealth.

That is NOT the same as the increase in DC for pinpointing his location, because the bonus applies only when using stealth.

Adding those numbers together is not adding anything twice.

Example:

Example mage guy casts invisibility. He has dex of 10, and no ranks in anything.

He moves at half speed, outside of combat, stopping directly adjacent to a guard. He is not using Stealth.

In order for the guard to pinpoint his location, the guard needs to make a DC 35 perception check.

It's DC 20 for the guard to notice that there's an active invisible creature within 30 feet. That DC is modified by +20 for trying to pinpoint his location. Because the invisible creature is moving, it applies a -5 modifier. 20+20-5 = 35.

Now, lets say the invisible mage guy leaves, and there's another guard further on. Invisible mage guy decides he wants to be sneaky, so he uses Stealth, while moving at half speed, and still isn't in combat. He moves up and stops directly adjacent to this next guard. His Stealth skill modifier is +0 (no ranks, no dex, no armor) and he rolls a 1 on the d20. He gets a +20 bonus on Stealth checks while moving (this is explicitly mentioned in the Stealth skill). This means his stealth check result, including the bonus is 21.

In order for this guard to pinpoint his location, the guard needs to make a DC 56 perception check.

It's DC 20 for the guard to notice that there's an active invisible creature within 30 feet. That DC is modified by +20 by trying to pinpoint his location. Because the invisible creature is moving, it applies a -5 modifier. Because he's using Stealth, you apply his Stealth Check. 20+20-5+21 = 56.

Because putting concrete examples with die rolls can be confusing, in the other thread I broke his stealth check and the stealth check bonus apart so it was clear. This is why I said "+20 Bonus to the Stealth Check" and "+SC (Actual Stealth Check, not including bonus)"

It's exactly the same result either way.

DC 20
+20 pinpoint
-5 moving
+20 Stealth Bonus
+1 Result of stealth check without bonus

and

DC 20
+20 pinpoint
-5 moving
+21 Result of stealth check including bonus

Diego Rossi wrote:
Base DC 20 added invisibility once

That's not adding anything, that's a set DC to notice an invisible creature.

That applies regardless of whether the invisible creature is using stealth or not. It has nothing to do with stealth. And it also has nothing to do with the bonus granted to the stealth skill by a condition!

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
MTCityHunter wrote:

What happens if the hidden creature isn't technically "invisible" but is still "not visible" to whatever is trying to pinpoint them?

Do all these modifiers for being "invisible" still apply?

For example, say they're stealthing through the area of a darkness or mist spell and the creature attempting to pinpoint doesn't have line of sight.

Thanks.

Modifiers for being invisible:

PRD wrote:


Invisible creature is... Perception
In combat or speaking –20 [a]
Moving at half speed –5 [b]
Moving at full speed –10 [c]
Running or charging –20 [d]
Not moving +20
Using Stealth Stealth check +20
Some distance away +1 per 10 feet [e]
Behind an obstacle (door) +5 [f]
Behind an obstacle (stone wall) +15 [g]

Modifiers under the perception skill

PRD wrote:


Perception Modifiers DC Modifier
Distance to the source, object, or creature +1/10 feet [e]
Through a closed door +5 [f]
Through a wall +10/foot of thickness [g]
Favorable conditions1 –2
Unfavorable conditions1 +2
Terrible conditions2 +5
Creature making the check is distracted +5
Creature making the check is asleep +10
Creature or object is invisible +20

Modifiers under the stealth skill

PRD wrote:


When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. [b]
It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking [a], running [c], or charging [d].

Following the letters you can see how most of the invisibility special ability modifier are used when not under invisibility. some work the same way, some slightly differently, some don't work at all.

Invisibility, especially in Pathfinder where you have a unified perception skill, is a strange beast. If I am invisible behind a wall blocking line of sight, RAW I get a +20 to my stealth check for the invisibility plus the +15 for the wall.
So invisibility in Pathfinder encompass more that mere sight,it cover even the other senses (with the exception of smell, as it has other rules, and special abilities like blindsight and blindsense).

In the situations you depict, where the perceiving creature is unable to see through darkness or fog, I would use the +20 modifier for pinpointing the location of people that is out of sight, but that is a GM decision, not a rule specified anywhere.
Perception has problems when not moderated by common sense. RAW (almost) no one is capable to see a person 1,000' away on flat terrain (base DC of 0 + 100 for the distance). From real life experience we know that we can see a person under those conditions and if we know that person well we can even recognize him (mostly from how he move, not from his face).


MTCityHunter wrote:

What happens if the hidden creature isn't technically "invisible" but is still "not visible" to whatever is trying to pinpoint them?

Do all these modifiers for being "invisible" still apply?

Nope. Invisible is a condition, which applies the effects under Invisibility.

MTCityHunter wrote:
For example, say they're stealthing through the area of a darkness or mist spell and the creature attempting to pinpoint doesn't have line of sight.

Then you use your Stealth check opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you.

If you are invisible, you gain a bonus on Stealth checks. That wouldn't make much sense if using stealth made you invisible which grants you a bonus on the check that caused it.

It's commonly run that if you've successfully used stealth, the creature that failed is unaware of your presence, and thus is either denied dex to AC or flat-footed against you, but that's different from actually being invisible.

There was a whole big threadsplosion about how stealth technically doesn't work and the whole system is broken, Paizo even made a blog post about it with some potential rule changes, but they never made it official. If you're interested in the details, you can start here. (I don't recommend it)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Grick wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


Base DC 20 added invisibility once.
That's not adding anything, that's a set DC to notice an invisible creature.

Find within the invisibility special ability rules where you have found that base DC the point where it say that you add the +20 to being invisible.

You can't as it is not in that section as all the rules in that section assume you have already added invisibility.

Alternatively find the location in the perception rules where it say that you have a base DC of 20 to notice an invisible creature. You can't at is not there, but there is a +20 modifier to the base chance to notice a creature if it is invisible.

You are meshing together two pieces of the rules that say the same thing in two different way and adding them together when they aren't meant to be added.

Even you were capable to see that once but then decided to discard the notion:

Grick wrote:


However! If the assumption is the chart listing for "Invisible creature is Using Stealth" is intended to be/include the same bonus listed in the stealth skill, that puts the DC at a slightly more reasonable value.


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The DC to notice is 20 within 30 feet. To pinpoint it is 20+stealth modifier(for the character).

If you are invisible, and not doing anything the DC goes to 40 for pinpointing.

I just had this debate recently in a post about detect magic vs invisibility spells.

This article explains it well, and the rules have not changed from 3.5 to Pathfinder. Click me


Diego Rossi wrote:
Grick wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


Base DC 20 added invisibility once.
That's not adding anything, that's a set DC to notice an invisible creature.
Find within the invisibility special ability rules where you have found that base DC the point where it say that you add the +20 to being invisible.

I'm not adding that +20 from the perception skill.

"A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check."

That's a particular task (notice nearby invisible creature) with a set DC. Nothing is added to it, nothing is taken away from it, there is no bonus involved, it's not modified. It's just a set DC for a particular task.

There is a set DC to notice an invisible creature. This has no bonus.

There is a modification to that DC in order to pinpoint it. This is also not a bonus.

There is a bonus to stealth checks made while invisible. That is a bonus. A bonus that applies to the stealth check. And that stealth check modifies the Perception DC, which is also modified by pinpointing.

DC 20 to notice invisible creature. Set DC, includes NO BONUSES.
+20 to pinpoint. Modification. Includes NO BONUSES.
Stealth check, which includes +20 bonus.

There is only one bonus happening there, and it's one that's explicitly stated TWICE in the rules.

None of that is taken from the perception skill section at all.

Diego Rossi wrote:
You are meshing together two pieces of the rules that say the same thing in two different way and adding them together when they aren't meant to be added.

You are taking two separate issues (DC to notice invisible creature, and invisible bonus to stealth) and merging them together when they are completely unrelated.

The bonus to stealth checks is a bonus. It applies to stealth checks. It doesn't apply when you're not making a stealth check.

The DC to notice an invisible creature is 20. This is not including the bonus to stealth checks, because it applies even if the creature is not using stealth.

Diego Rossi wrote:

Even you were capable to see that once but then decided to discard the notion:

Grick wrote:


However! If the assumption is the chart listing for "Invisible creature is Using Stealth" is intended to be/include the same bonus listed in the stealth skill, that puts the DC at a slightly more reasonable value.

Imagine if you had actually read that the first time. You'll note that every single one of my responses here has been using that same interpretation. And every one of the DC's I've listed here has matched that formula.


wraithstrike wrote:
The DC to notice is 20 within 30 feet. To pinpoint it is 20+stealth modifier(for the character).

Wrong.

"A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack. It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check."

None of that has anything to do with stealth.

An invisible character standing there, doing nothing, is DC 40 to pinpoint.

An invisible character moving at half speed, NOT using stealth, is DC 35. This is because moving at half speed imparts a -5 modifier to the perception DC.

A character moving at half speed, and actually using stealth, is DC 35+Stealth Check and that stealth check gets a +20 bonus because the rules say it does, in two different places.


Grick wrote:
MTCityHunter wrote:

What happens if the hidden creature isn't technically "invisible" but is still "not visible" to whatever is trying to pinpoint them?

Do all these modifiers for being "invisible" still apply?

Nope. Invisible is a condition, which applies the effects under Invisibility.

That's what I figured. Using strict RAW, its pretty clear a lot of these modifiers come specifically from the invisible condition.

That certainly creates a logic loophole though, as Diego has pointed out, and I'm a big fan of things making sense.

Grick wrote:
MTCityHunter wrote:
For example, say they're stealthing through the area of a darkness or mist spell and the creature attempting to pinpoint doesn't have line of sight.

Then you use your Stealth check opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you.

If you are invisible, you gain a bonus on Stealth checks. That wouldn't make much sense if using stealth made you invisible which grants you a bonus on the check that caused it.

I certainly agree on the second point, but if you're making a stealth check against someone who literally cannot see you, you're effectively invisible. I realize the distinction of not actually benefiting from the invisible condition, but stay with me.

I do think you're right by RAW, but if you're stealthing through fog or darkness and you're NOT "invisible" (meaning its just a standard stealth vs. perception opposed roll), isn't it kind of absurd that its not effectively easier to hide under such circumstances than it is under ordinary ones (say...hiding behind a bush)?

You can still potentially see the guy behind the bush, but even with a successful perception check, you've got NO chance to see the guy in the fog (though you'd know he was in there somewhere). What if the guy in the fog/darkness is also invisible via the spell, NOW he gets huge bonuses to his stealth check ostensibly because, you know, he's invisible and you can't see him. Only, you already couldn't see him! That's messed up IMO.

Does the guy in the fog/darkness get the +20 bonus to his DC to be pinpointed (even though that rule only appears under the invisibility condition, which is not met by RAW), and if so, is THAT the benefit of denying LOS? Because if he doesn't at least get that bonus, its no different from hiding within LOS.

Consider, succeeding on a perception check vs. the guy behind the bush (assuming he's within LOS but has concealment) means he's likely automatically pinpointed. Even with a successful perception check against the guy in the fog, you'd still need to pinpoint them somehow to target them. But the only place they give a modifier for pinpointing something you can't see is under the invisible condition.

Am I wrong? Feels like we're chasing our tails here...but thanks for the replies.

Also yeah, I followed that stealth discussion for a while. Its definitely a hot mess, and its a shame that the rewrite got put on the back-burner IMO.


Grick wrote:

You are taking two separate issues (DC to notice invisible creature, and invisible bonus to stealth) and merging them together when they are completely unrelated.

The bonus to stealth checks is a bonus. It applies to stealth checks. It doesn't apply when you're not making a stealth check.

The DC to notice an invisible creature is 20. This is not including the bonus to stealth checks, because it applies even if the creature is not using stealth.

For the record, I'm with Grick on this issue. The "extra" +20 is from the bonus for being invisible under the stealth skill (and would be a +40 if the stealthing invisible creature was stationary).

Its entirely separate from modifiers to perception DC checks derived from being invisible.

IMHO of course.

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