Goblin Squad Member
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My map seems to match theirs fairly well, except my hex grid seems to have a half-hex northward shift. My experience in a past life has me know that different projection datums can cause a pronounced northerly positional shift.
Actually, it depends on the Projections (fore and after).
You think they actually used a Datum projection? I would think that the map was created in 2D from the beginning, with no datum involved.Perhaps the swift has more to do with scaling the "original" map to fit a fixed hex pattern?
Anyway, Harad you have my (our) outmost gratitude for making these!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually, no, I don't think it is a projection issue. I think I was just reminiscing. The placement of the hexes was a best guess on my part. I'm just happy they were as close as they were. The bigger issue for me is that the screen capture of the initial overhead view appears to have some aspect ratio problems compared to the hex grid map. I had to reduce the image latitudinal (x-coordinate direction) by about 25%. I matched the position of the West Sullen River with the river in my map, then corrected to match the image of the Thornkeep crossroads with that of the map. The hex grid gives me a orthogonal orientation so I feel fairly good about the correction. However, GW may have actually altered the programming of the PFO world to increase the physical (metaphorically) distance in that direction.
I am at the point of placing the settlement and monster hexes from the opening movie sequence onto the topo image map. However, that map appears to be a copy of the Thornkeep map that has been marked with different color highlighters. I am not sure that this is a truly homomorphic mapping of concept into programming.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Least Desirable:The two settlement hexes to the south, are separated by a number of monster hexes, from the rest of the settlement population.
On the other hand, this could also become a haven for the heinous, using those monster hexes as a buffer (moat) from an easy northern invasion.
I was under the impressions that escalations would be profitable (assuming you manage to beat them). Also, they will provide a large part of the game's PvE content, possibly attracting many money-spending adventurers to those settlements.
Drawback I see is being far away from the centre, thus risking becoming slightly isolated where trade is concerned.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...The bigger issue for me is that the screen capture of the initial overhead view appears to have some aspect ratio problems compared to the hex grid map. I had to reduce the image latitudinal (x-coordinate direction) by about 25%. ..
Ah, I have discovered why I was having so much trouble. The hex scale for the hand colored map from the video is not the same as the scale on my maps by about 25%. (Grumble, grumble, grubs again.) I will rescale my hex grid and proceed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here is a new version of the Unofficial PFO Map showing the topology displayed in the WIP video. I have also shown the information from the video's hand colored hex map showing settlement and monster hexes. The hand coloring is somewhat indistinct in the open planes areas, so I may not have interpreted those settlement hexes correctly. Also shown is a hypothetical 12 hex by 12 hex initial area for the the start of EE.
The hand colored map had fewer hexes than my original map (1728 hexes in mine and 1292 hexes in GW's). This made the hexes shown in the video larger than those I originally postulated for my map. The scale of the new map has been adjusted for this, assuming that there has not been a change in the physical distances from the published Thornkeep map. In addition Silvershade Lake and Toad Hollow Lake have been shown as they were omitted from the elevation topo in the video.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Very cool Harad. A lot easier to look at.
I know the start area practically has to be square-ish. Did you play around with the EE start zone to see if you could fit more than 9 settlement hexes? There should be 15+ settlement hexes. Silly question, but someone has to be silly. =P
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Goblin Squad Member
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The placement of settlement hexes will be disbursed due to placement of monster hexes and the spacing requirements between settlement hexes. My initial EE area map did not include monster hexes and could thus meet the target goal of 15 settlement hexes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The placement of settlement hexes will be disbursed due to placement of monster hexes and the spacing requirements between settlement hexes. My initial EE area map did not include monster hexes and could thus meet the target goal of 15 settlement hexes.
What an outstanding job!
As for the 15 settlement hexes, you have 8, but there is room for two more. One in the north and south of the EE area. It dies mean that the "new" northern settlement will be bordered by 4 monster hexes, maybe that would be good for those who like a challenge.
It does bring up several questions for GW to answer:
1. How will travel be handled from the starter cities to this EE zone?
2. Will all settlement hexes have an equal number of monster hexes attached to them?
3. Would it not be beneficial for the EE zone to be separated into three different areas, each being a suburban area surrounding each of the starter cities?
Yes I know you said you don't want the EE world to be underpopulated. But, but there are advantages to having this separation.
Demographic measuring tool
Allow for more organic expansion to connect the zones
I'm assuming the goal is to have the entire map open for OE?
Won't this discourage settlements in the EE zone to really push to develop high up in the ladder, because they will wait for a more prime location to open up later?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I’m just guessing here, but this brings up some interesting issues:
-It appears Alejia’s Crossing will BE the first starting point while the other three NPC settlements are fine tuned.
-Players will have to choose amongst a small number of settlement options in the early days of EE, as only 15 larger settlements will be available (swallow your pride for a bit longer peoples!).
-Once EE ends and OE begins, can settlements be dismantled for salvage, or will all the starter settlements become a sort of “ruins” (maybe even an inviting place for other creatures to inhabit for a while?).
-There will be more land expansions in the future. This will give GW a chance to see and record player behavior, migration patterns, and may be a predictor of what settlements have the best chance of succeeding in the future; who is organized, who stockpiled construction materials, who was well armed enough to protect their investment?
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Goblin Squad Member
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The marked area for the start of EE is hypothetical, based on what the devs have said in the blog. It is not officially set.
So far we do not know how much resources it will take to build a settlement. We may not be able to amass enough until we have played many months. We also do not know what specific mechanism will be in place the allow a group to form a settlement. We do know that we will have to control all the structures/PoI in the hex to be able to lay claim to a settlement location. We may want to focus on building watchtowers or forts first. It will be interesting to see which chartered/venture company gets wealthy enough to build the first structure, excluding of course inns purchased as a Kickstarter reward level.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Understood it is hypothetical. Still though, we will have to start somewhere, and it might be a challenge to get all three NPC cities up and running at the front end. Makes sense to get one up so they can get paying customers online while they build up the rest of the gameplay area. Gonna be fun to be there early on (I'm not in the first month, but even the second month will be fine by me).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have updated the Unofficial PFO Map with my best guess as to the location of the settlement development area shown in the video. If you have different guesses please post.
EDIT: Here is the raw image with the site indicated with an arrow.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I’m just guessing here, but this brings up some interesting issues:
-It appears Alejia’s Crossing will BE the first starting point while the other three NPC settlements are fine tuned.
-Players will have to choose amongst a small number of settlement options in the early days of EE, as only 15 larger settlements will be available (swallow your pride for a bit longer peoples!).
-Once EE ends and OE begins, can settlements be dismantled for salvage, or will all the starter settlements become a sort of “ruins” (maybe even an inviting place for other creatures to inhabit for a while?).
-There will be more land expansions in the future. This will give GW a chance to see and record player behavior, migration patterns, and may be a predictor of what settlements have the best chance of succeeding in the future; who is organized, who stockpiled construction materials, who was well armed enough to protect their investment?
- Yes, if the middle is the starter area, it does make sense given expansion can be radial - which is possibly the most interesting way to expand the map alternatively to unidirectional at a time?
- Agree, players will do well to lump up together for the common good while early settlement founding options are limited: A good idea to set up a democratic settlement unless a very strong and just leadership can be trusted to run things more efficiently and beneficially and with everyone's trust/vote!
- I'd imagine using early settlements as a base of operations to found strategically allied settlements in new areas and providing back-up would be the best option and then in time potentially taking all the light-bulbs and loo-roles with you (pl.) for a complete migration. ;)
- Mm, that data could be very interesting. *steeples fingers*
Here's Stephen Cheney's comments on the map, worth popping into this thread:
Unlike most theme park MMOs, it's unlikely we'll put in a lot of invisible walls at the top of steep slopes. They tend to do it because they want to maintain limited egress from heavily sculpted zones, so they can know which way you're approaching the content and to hide unfinished art on the other side of the slope.
We don't particularly need that, since we're not heavily sculpting areas to assume certain ways in and out. However, the terrain does have a slope to it, and we'll prevent you from walking past a certain steepness just so it doesn't look weird (see old SWG and the ability to slowly climb up anything short of a 90 degree incline, your character apparently just floating in the air walking forward).
Almost all of the time, you'll be able to find a way up, either by going down and choosing a lesser slope or by jumping and switchbacking. There's nothing on the other side we're trying to hide from you.-snip-
Thinking about this and looking at the map with the wider map than the actual borders of the hex map, it seems this space is in effect to frame the map with see-able expansion hexes around the border of the map - potentially expanding radially just as with EE?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Revised Unofficial PFO Map to include hex numbers. Also shifted Hypothetical EE Start area south and east by 1 hex to include settlement site from video.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Looks like we have some small heights confirmed:
@Harad Nevar - if you look at the detailed maps from Kingmaker you'll see mountains where none are visible on the Inner Sea Region map. The Inner Sea map has a low enough resolution that mountains are not all visible.
Jolly good.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Looks like we have some small heights confirmed:
@Harad Nevar - if you look at the detailed maps from Kingmaker you'll see mountains where none are visible on the Inner Sea Region map. The Inner Sea map has a low enough resolution that mountains are not all visible.Jolly good.
I am glad that you will get something that you wanted since I first started posting around here Avena. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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The diversity is necessary imo for a sandbox map eg river to the West has potential. Maybe even down the road characters will need furs while traversing the snows/ice of te mountains? And more opportunities for diverse interactions and local conditions eg types of mob, resources and so on. Probably a lack of roads could make a huge difference - increase remoteness.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Unofficial PFO Map with Topo
I am unable to view this link directly either. The image is 7 MB and I have had problems with images over 5 MB displaying. I have TT tonight, so I probably will not get a chance to resample for a smaller image until tomorrow. You should still be able to download the image.
Amazing work, Harad! Very handy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Unofficial PFO Map with TopoAwesome, sir!
There is density of information developing in this map of The River Kingdoms setting for PFO. A feast for the eyes.
Great work, Harad. Whatever its accuracy, it is excellent food for thought.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have been looking at my old work and noticed that the previous Unofficial Map has a smaller area than the full map that has been posted to the dev blog. Here is a PDF that compares the two. If you download the PDF you will see that each map is in a layer that you can turn on or off to see the old topo over the full map. I will be working Sunday on an enhanced (i.e., more map-like than graphic) version of the full map (after the 0dark30 vigil and requisite recuperative nap). It may take a while but a new map is coming.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Preliminary region identifiers:
The MONoPoLe plains, north and west of Fort Inevitable.
The JFK hills, also known as the Kennedy hills, north of there.
The CaGED forest north and east of the hills.
The HI mountain zone.
The ABbey hills, northeast of Thornkeep.
The WAA mountain, southeast of Thornkeep.
The eXTRaQ forest area west of the WAA mountain.
The lake SUZY region.
and the ACADABy mountain zone.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The Kennedy hills are well situated near a major crossroads and can serve as a trade hub. Easy access cuts both ways, however, and there seems to be no way to prevent raiders from coming off of the road into the region. There's little variation in terrain type, so the area must rely on trade for most of their imports.
The Monopole plains contain virtually all of the arable land in the region, but very little else. Again, ease of transportation and security are mutually exclusive, and the road serves both to make exporting easy and to make defending from raiders difficult.
The Caged forest has the mixed blessing of being harder to reach, while remaining close to the expected trade hub in the Kennedy hills. While there is plenty of room for future expansion northwards, that area is limited to more forests. (assuming the lack of a settlement site at -11, -9 is not an error, there is more than enough lebensraum to the north)
The HI mountain seems very interesting. The settlements have easy access to transportation, but poor access to the mountain itself; the nearby road offers easier access than the settlements near the foothills. I anticipate a lot of failed attempts to prevent people from claim-jumping in the mountain itself. Even discounting the mountain, however, the settlments have a fairly large and slightly varied area of fair control. They also suffer from the effects of having lots of major road access.
The Waa mountain suffers from the opposite characteristic; there is a handful of choke points to prevent access into and out of the area. I expect exporting from and importing t the Waa region to be a difficult process simply because there are relatively few ways out or alternate sources.
The Extraq forest region seems fairly average. The terrain is differentiated enough to keep it from being monotonous, but probably not enough to meet local demand for anything except forest materials. It is close enough to the major road for travel, but mostly far enough away that raiders will not normally choose to penetrate deeply. With no choke points, the only thing keeping raiders away would be the travel time.
The Lake Suzy region differs only in that transportation is more difficult, both ways. Choke points on the treeline around FTI make transportation and raiding more difficult by making interdiction harder to avoid.
The Acadaby mountains (like 'academy' spoken with a bad cold) are fairly close to every terrain type except starting cities and roads. It might be the nearest area that can be almost self-sufficient, and with long supply lines that must traverse multiple choke points and other areas, it might have to fend for itself for an extended period of time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe during coffee breaks the devs would spend some brief, relaxing moments suitably naming the major landmarks for us so we can get used to talking about them with meaningful context. The letters used as placeholders will be renamed down the road as settlements are claimed and populated with player organizations, after all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe during coffee breaks the devs would spend some brief, relaxing moments suitably naming the major landmarks for us so we can get used to talking about them with meaningful context.
Many of these features (e.g. lakes, roads, monster lairs) DO have names. The unofficial map and the Thornkeep book are good sources for those. For example 'Lake SUZY' is actually Toad Lake. There are no names for the mountains and hills because those are newly revealed with the most recent maps, but they can be described in reference to nearby locations... the 'WAA mountain' is the 'mountain by Thornkeep'. The 'ABbey' hills are 'hills north of Echo Cliff' (which is a Monster hex east and a little north of Thornkeep, likely to be occupied by spiders). Et cetera.
A list of some of the named locations and approximate coordinates can be found here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It may take a while but a new map is coming.
yay! Very much looking forward to another of your gorgeous maps.
If possible with location names. Unless we as community start referring to proper names, there is a risk that PFOers in 2 years time still refer to mt.Waa and lake Suzy - and that there will be a mismatch between PFO any PFRPG material set in the region. On the other hand, if PFO has versimilitude-friendly names and semi-stable kingdoms we could hope to see Paizo publish something about us without editing it beyond recognition.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hey, I am Dutch, so it comes natural to me. :) Was not teasing you! Though you have made me conscious about using metric now...
I would rather have the traveltimes in seconds/minutes to be honest, I never think in meters in any game anyway. In Everquest it is " that is a pretty big zone, takes you 5 minutes to run across with SoW spell on"
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Here is the Unofficial Pathfinder OnLine Map, Version 3, Rev 0. This map is in a layered PDF so you can controll the viability of the layers in any combination to focus on the areas of your interest. To do so you will have to down load the PDF.
The Areas of Influence layer is turned off by default because it makes the initial view of the map too confusing. Areas of Influence are the settlement hex and the 6-hex block surrounding the settlement hex. This is under the assumption that a settlement will want to eventually claim all contiguous hexes for security reasons. This is limited where impassable elevation changes exist with no pass available to allow access to the other side.
Please post any correction request to this thread.
Knowledge can explain the darkness, but it is not a light.