Unofficial Pathfinder Online Map


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Goblin Squad Member

From the blog "Introducing the Crusader Road" (December 21, 2011), Ryan posted:

"The northern portion of the area is overseen by the righteous and lawful Knights of Iomedae, operating from a stronghold known as Fort Riverwatch. The southern approach is guarded by the ruthless Hellknights, enforcing their rule from Fort Inevitable. And from within the depths of the Echo Wood, a wretched hive of scum and villainy exerts control over much of the forest (from Thornkeep).

(NOTE: Thornkeep was not named yet...polling followed shortly after.)

But the general story seemed to go from south to north. Instead it seems we will just be expanding from our starting point.

So our choices are:

Fort Riverwatch - Goods
Fort Inevitable - Evils (with some Neutrals)
Thornkeep - Neutrals

Starting points might be chosen by the players, or might be based on a survey of play styles or moral choice quiz or poll. I haven't seen how that one will play out yet.

Still, farming, shepherding, animal husbanding and large open fields to the west, higher level adventuring and higher level materials to the east. Maybe.

Goblin Squad Member

@Harad, thanks for laying out what it can do. Who knows if I'll be able to do any of that by the end of the quarter, but that all sounds very intriguing.

Goblin Squad Member

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This terrain seems pretty flat. I hope they take a few liberties with the topography and throw in some hills, at least. Maybe some mountains in the first land expansion.

Goblin Squad Member

Hardin,

I agree on the terrain comments. I feel for the poor Dwarves, who may seem like fish out of water in the middle of all these plains.

Goblin Squad Member

At least I now have a hill terrain symbol for when these show up. I expect that as we begin play and exploring hexes I'll be pretty busy making changes based on player input. I need to think about a building for cartography clearinghouse. My DT may have to join the Pathfinders (I did pledge enough to the the Pathfinder Alliance Pack).

Goblin Squad Member

Hardin Steele wrote:
This terrain seems pretty flat. I hope they take a few liberties with the topography and throw in some hills, at least. Maybe some mountains in the first land expansion.

Even with contour lines added, it's easy to underestimate or not be able to visualise how steep the landscape is!

And this brings me to a point worth considering:

1. I really hope we see genuine valleys with ravine steep sides
2. I hope such topography is either tiring or takes longer to traverse (possibly less so for rangers/druids etc)
3. I get the impression players can run over maps too quickly in mmorpgs hence the game world feels too small too quickly; topography with real valleys not miner knolls, especially in wilder areas would add to the lack of ability to control areas via a central authority due to the time to traverse such perilously steep places.
4. Atmosphere is increased a lot if the vistas and panoramas are immense also. A (sense of a) huge world increases immersion.

So the map may not have full on moutain ranges, but I'm sure some minor peaks and "heights"/plateaux can easily be included in various areas.

Day Z has some nice topography, possibly based on ordinance survey maps in terms of space representation to scale of game world? But anything to get away from the hillocky model terrain stuff in most mmorpgs.

Goblin Squad Member

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Having grown up out west, and travelling all the Mountain states I thought for the longest time that many places I saw on the map were featureless. Yet going there I realized that local elevation is what is usually significant. Though a 'mountain' is only a few thousand feet tall, the climbing of it can be as challenging as Pike's Peak.

Goblin Squad Member

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AvenaOats wrote:
4. Atmosphere is increased a lot if the vistas and panoramas are immense also. A (sense of a) huge world increases immersion.

A nice suprise vista really can't be beaten. I played "Two Worlds" when it first came out (under rated game with a pretty nifty skill advancement wheel, imho) and I was crossing a mountain using the road...when I turned a corner and there was a magnificient vista overlooking the entire mapped area. There was a little area hidden behind the walls of an evil looking fortress in the distance (which happened to be an evil fortress...climactic battles there, game ended), but the entire game area was visible from that vista. Really well done.

Being wrote:
Having grown up out west, and travelling all the Mountain states I thought for the longest time that many places I saw on the map were featureless. Yet going there I realized that local elevation is what is usually significant. Though a 'mountain' is only a few thousand feet tall, the climbing of it can be as challenging as Pike's Peak.

True, maps can be deceptive. I have fallen into that trap a time or two myself. "Hey that looks interesting!" until you get there and go "Uhhh. Maybe next time. Not equipped for that today." :(

Still, the River Kingdoms is a flatlanders dream. I'll keep pressing East!

Goblin Squad Member

I don't expect to see a lot of environmental variety in such a small area.

Goblin Squad Member

If the environmental demo was a third of a subhex then it seems to me that at launch the whole area will be large enough to allow terrain variety. Or wait... are you simply wanting MOAR and minimizing the size of the described area to encourage that end? If so, by gum you're right Nihimon, how are we going to have environmental variety in a postage stamp?

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
I don't expect to see a lot of environmental variety in such a small area.

I don't mind if it's a temperate zone for habitat, but the nice thing for adding moutains is increasing the types of habitat:

Eg Mediterranean-Scrub, Temperate, Sub-Alpine/Montane, Alpine - can all co-exist when you include some small mountain peaks clustering together, even if they are only a few thousand meters high.

Another good reason for mountains.

Goblin Squad Member

AvenaOats wrote:
I don't mind if it's a temperate zone for habitat...

It's an area the size of Philadelphia. They might give it the environmental diversity of Texas, but I don't think we should expect that.

Goblin Squad Member

Ok, maybe just half a mountain, then? ;)

Goblin Squad Member

Comcast Tower?

Goblin Squad Member

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Nihimon wrote:
AvenaOats wrote:
I don't mind if it's a temperate zone for habitat...
It's an area the size of Philadelphia. They might give it the environmental diversity of Texas, but I don't think we should expect that.

Out here in the Gray Lands (Cascadia) if you were to plop Philadelphia down on the right spot, you could have a pretty large diversity of terrain.

Then again, there aren't any major mountain chains splitting the Crusader Road up.

I can at least hope for something like central Pennsylvania, right?

Goblin Squad Member

We have decent hills and streams here, but nothing remotely like a mountain. Have to head out of town for that sort of thing.

Goblin Squad Member

I have revised the Unofficial Map based on the developer blog of June 12, 2013. The scale was changed to reflect the 680 m x 780 m hex size. (Not much of a change, it was pretty close already.) Google Drive is not giving me thumbnails for the 150 dpi image like it used to so you will have to download to see. I have also added a 144 hex area for Early Enrollment so we can see a visual of the EE opening size versus the only published size we have (from Thornkeep). This assumes that the opening size will be 12 hexes by 12 hexes (for 144). If they use some other ratio the impact will be different. The location of the opening EE area is a hypothetical guess.

Unofficial PFO Map with Opening EE Area - 150 dpi
Unofficial PFO Map with Opening EE Area - 300 dpi

Goblin Squad Member

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Files updated with minor spelling correction. (Should'nt map at 1 am.)

Unofficial PFO Map with Opening EE Area - 150 dpi
Unofficial PFO Map with Opening EE Area - 300 dpi

Goblin Squad Member

I was going to request you update--thanks!

Goblin Squad Member

I really appreciate your work Harad. Very neat to see the "possibilities". Thank you.

Goblin Squad Member

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Looking again at the blog they indicate an east-west orientation for the initial EE area. I have made some examples of 6x24 hexes and 4x36 hexes (in addition to 12x12 hexes). I will give an explanation for each of why I placed the areas where I did.

Unofficial PFO Map - 12x12 hex starting area
I selected this area to minimize the changes from the Thornkeep setup. I made the choice of including Alejia's Crossing because it seemed a very logical location for an NPC settlement. This also has a good road and a monster hex already located (the Misted Vault).

Unofficial PFO Map - 6x24 hex starting area
This configuration still has Alejia's Crossing as an NPC but a different monster hex (the Pit of Chains). It has more road development that would make early settlements easier. Also the Pit of Chains is goblin driven and may have more story potential. The layout will miss Emerald Spire (a good thing as it isn't developed as yet). It could be a very taunting image over the horizon of the "invisible wall". I like this configuration the best.

Unofficial PFO Map - 4x36 hex starting area
This area does not include Alejia's Crossing but it seemed to have fewer issues in avoiding Thornkeep. Oreena's Cottage might be a reasonable sight for an NPC settlement for interesting conflict with Thornkeep. Still has a road for early settlement development, one monster hex (Misted Vault), and a possible escalation wilderness hex (Echo Cliff).

Goblin Squad Member

Harad the maps you've built are wonderful but to my chagrin, unless I am badly mistaken, the east-west alignment of the grid means your hex grid is 90 degrees off.

Goblin Squad Member

Being wrote:
Harad the maps you've built are wonderful but to my chagrin, unless I am badly mistaken, the east-west alignment of the grid means your hex grid is 90 degrees off.

The orientation is the same as the hex orientation of the Thornkeep maps. We'll have to see when GW publishes their first PFO map. The "east-west" think I took to be a non square (non 12x12) arrangement of hexes.

Goblin Squad Member

I have been thinking about how the area of the game would expand from the initial EE area. After playing with the non-square (non 12x12) units of 144 hexes, I discovered that the map contains 16 144-hex units at 12x12 hexes each.

Unofficial PFO Map showing equal 12x12 hex units

I believe that this is a better representation of the intital EE area and subsequent expansion areas. In particular, it seems to me that the most logical location for the initial EE area is the unit containing Alejia's Crossing, for the following reasons:
1) There are no other published locations from the Thornkeep map except Alejia's Crossing in that unit. This means that developing hexes in this area will have very little impact on existing published material.
2) Alejia's Crossing is THE crossroads of the region, connecting Fort Inevitable, Fort Riverwatch, Thornkeep, and Mosewater.
3) The structure of the Pit of Chains lends itself very well to be a source of expanding escalation. If the first EE area expansion is to the east of Alejia's Crossing, the Pit of Chains makes a very good monster hex to quest after.
4) Placing an NPC settlement at Alejia's Crossing fills the gap of patrolled roads between Fort Inevitable and Fort Riverwatch.

I notice that of the 16 144-hex units, 5 do not have any (or at least very minor) settlements or monster hexes. That means that almost a third of the area will be amenable to auto-generation (with dev tweeks). They could also develop the unit containing Mosswater last as it will probably be the area with the highest concentration of PvE content.

Goblin Squad Member

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I have been thinking about the dev blog and the Unofficial PFO Map with 12x12 hex units and wanted to narrow it down to the initial 144-hex area. I have made a hypothetical map based on assumptions from the dev blogs and my own guesses so I can get my head around the area.

Hypothetical PFO Area at Start of Early Enrollment

Personal Assumptions on Why This Area:
1) Of the four 12x12 hex units in the center of the PFO extents, the one containing Alejia's Crossing seems to fit the blog description the best assuming that they make Alejia's Crossing into an NPC settlement. Making it a settlement will only make a small impact on the published information from Thornkeep.
2) Alejia's Crossing is THE major crossroad in the PFO region linking Fort Riverwatch, Fort Inevitable, Thornkeep, and Mosswater. It is the perfect spot for a settlement.
3) An NPC settlement at Alejia's Crossing does prevent control of a major traffic route by a player nation too early in the game. However, in Open Enrollment, the settlement could become open to attack when there are actual character kingdoms.

Assumptions from Big Things have Small Beginnings:
We're going to build about 144 hexes, each about 680 meters by 780 meters, prior to the first players joining the game. One of those hexes will be a settled area controlled by NPCs, and at least one of the nearby hexes will be a monster hex which will regularly create problems for the settlement. About 15 hexes will be sites for eventual player settlements (the systems for claiming, building, and administering these settlements will be introduced later in the Early Enrollment period). The remaining hexes will be wilderness, places where characters will go to find and extract resources and struggle with each other over the economic assets they represent.

This territory is going to be located roughly in the middle area of the Crusader Road zone we've previously discussed. It's mostly low hills and sparse forest, with some small ponds and a few higher hills. The hexes will be laid out in an east-west configuration. When you reach the edge of the area, you'll find an invisible wall that limits further travel.

Assumptions from Don't Ask Me No Questions:
At the start of Early Enrollment play, there will be a large NPC settlement, plus fifteen or so hexes suitable for player settlements. ... However, each potential settlement hex is ringed by half a dozen or so wilderness hexes, each with a "point of interest" site where a free-standing structure such as an outlying farm or watchtower can be built.

Thoughts?

Goblin Squad Member

Quality work Harad! It's a very good guess and even if not 100% accurate portrays the potential starter area with a solid impression.

Goblin Squad Member

Map Revised to Include Hex Numbers
I have added hex numbers to the Hypothetical Map of PFO Initial EE Area. This should help any discussions be clear of which hex to which they are referring.

Goblin Squad Member

my congratulations for the work, and the spatial analysis involved
(I am a surveying engineer, cartographer and gis user, and your work Harad really feeds the map geek in me :) )
Extremely useful!

Goblin Squad Member

Thanks. I have just completed some maps for the Kingmaker Campaign I GM if you would like to see them here. Although there seems to be some glitch in viewing them with Chrome at the moment.

Goblin Squad Member

I can view them just fine and I use the Chrome browser, Harad.

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

That is incredibly good work with CC3! Any tips on how to get more profiecent with the software, beyond just playing with it a lot?

Goblin Squad Member

All of the maps are actually done in Adobe Illustrator. Some of the symbols are indeed from CC3.

Goblin Squad Member

When we get to see some of the demo on Wednesday, hopefully you can start your elevation above sea-level aka contours project... ;)!

Goblin Squad Member

Presuming that I have guessed correctly about the starting EE extent. They may not be interested in sharing elevation data. If they could export to a dxf format (or lat/lon coordinate pair elevations) I could do something easily. However, I doubt that they would be open to that.

Goblin Squad Member

What is the land itself called? I'd like to read up some lore about it.

Goblin Squad Member

The area is in the River Kingdoms. There is a Guide to the River kingdoms available from Paizo. PFO is in the farthest northwest corner.

Goblin Squad Member

Harad any changed to your maps according to the ones in the video? And should we petition the team for the digital elevation model? ;)

Goblin Squad Member

I plan on doing some additional work over the next few days. No promised delivery date.

Goblin Squad Member

Just so you know Harad... you are my hero.

Goblin Squad Member

Areks wrote:
Just so you know Harad... you are my hero.

Yes, Harad is a hero to many! And there are a few of them that are not institutionalized, as well.

/joking

Thanks to Areks, here is a Semi Official, subject to change map:

A look at the map

It has been established the the Light Green hexes are Settlement Hexes. That being known, we can begin to see what are "Prime Locations" and which are certainly not.

Prime Locations:

Those in between the two roads (Triangular area) with easy access to Thornkeep.

I can see a lot of conflict in the making if these are not controlled by one entity (ie. Kingdom or Nation). Much like in Chess, control of the middle of the board is key to winning.

Least Desirable:

The two settlement hexes to the south, are separated by a number of monster hexes, from the rest of the settlement population.

On the other hand, this could also become a haven for the heinous, using those monster hexes as a buffer (moat) from an easy northern invasion.

Goblin Squad Member

I think Prime Locations will depend more on nearby resources than on anything we can see right now. It may well turn out that those areas in between the roads are too "settled" to have high-end resources.

Goblin Squad Member

It's interesting the hex map ends before the river but the environment map extends beyond the river. Wonder if that's relevant?

If the map includes more land across The Sellen River, then I'd wonder that that area might be strongly defensible if traversable and requiring high alliance seeing as other settlements would be your primary neighbours on limited land and hence wars would be bitter.

I could see that being a "safer area" to set up shop, speculatively.

Conversely if the addition of high evelation and woods and hills towards the East, and rougher terrain, then that might suit wilder and more lawless or at least more contested hexes.

Given we know the size of the hexes, the river looks suitably mighty, too.

Goblin Squad Member

It seems likely that the Settlements across the river would be more dependent on transporting goods over the river. That would probably balance their attractiveness.

Goblin Squad Member

That's right, if those hexes are accessible, then possibly fewer, larger, more allied settlements could develop there and mutually share protection, trade networks ie become a Kingdom. The flipside to a more highly defensible position (in the corner and/or side of the map would be opportunities to extract resources being more reliant on longer trade routes and less choice over which direction those have to come from. But potentially fewer fronts with enemies to worry about, particularly with that huge River standing in the way!

Goblin Squad Member

The key to controlling an area, whether in the center or the corner, is in the 'control' more then the 'area'.

Goblin Squad Member

Yes, but if you think about it, such settlements could pool their militia to patrol x1 front - the river, with potentially watchtowers to light and alert back home (as well as use instant messaging/voip...) of any unexpected visitors.

So: Higher security, lower chance of sneaky pvp'ers springing a hit and run ambush etc.

Possibly a good place if available for players looking for a kingdom that is maybe not surrounded by rich and diverse resources but more possible to protect the peace?

Goblin Squad Member

So long as players/traders have a useful way to traverse the river, and at the same time the river provides a useful obstacle to invasion, then sure.

The question, I think, is whether those conditions are mutually exclusive.

Goblin Squad Member

Potentially the NPC Town area near the top of the map (North) lies near The River Sellen and also has roads (yellow hexes ?) for conducting major trade: Fort Riverwatch (Good Aligned). In fact there's a larger section where the r. Sellen goes around a bend there. If Good Alignment newbs are feeding, then that might be an area to build from?

Goblin Squad Member

My map seems to match theirs fairly well, except my hex grid seems to have a half-hex northward shift. My experience in a past life has me know that different projection datums can cause a pronounced northerly positional shift. I will be working on a map revision that corrects this and displays the color coded information a little clearer. I also plan to show a version with hexes over the elevation shaded topology. We shall see.

Goblin Squad Member

After giving it a good look over, it appears that the town hex with the furthest distance to a Monster hex would be the town hex to the 10 o'clock of the hex that contains the "RO" of Valley Road. Closest Monster hexes are four away...and the Valley Road runs right by it.

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