Unofficial Pathfinder Online Map


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Goblin Squad Member

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Harad Navar wrote:

Here is the Unofficial Pathfinder OnLine Map, Version 3, Rev 0. This map is in a layered PDF so you can controll the viability of the layers in any combination to focus on the areas of your interest. To do so you will have to down load the PDF.

The Areas of Influence layer is turned off by default because it makes the initial view of the map too confusing. Areas of Influence are the settlement hex and the 6-hex block surrounding the settlement hex. This is under the assumption that a settlement will want to eventually claim all contiguous hexes for security reasons. This is limited where impassable elevation changes exist with no pass available to allow access to the other side.

Please post any correction request to this thread.

Knowledge can explain the darkness, but it is not a light.

Just.... Wow!

Goblin Squad Member

Brilliant work - thank you Harad Navar!

Goblin Squad Member

Astonishing. Very well done, Harad.

Goblin Squad Member

So …,

Thank you. Playing with the layers gave me a real perspective. If I was a leader, I would see what needs to be done. Oh so good. This puts a real light (can anything be said to be real in a fantasy MMO?) on the land rush vests they way the companies have been talking. I suspect the Big 8 (10) can see it also.

This does need to be mixed with the production of the different biomes.\\Minor nit, but basically great!

Goblin Squad Member

Lam wrote:
This does need to be mixed with the production of the different biomes.

I have considered that. I can add text pages to the document with that information, probably when I have to make the next revision.

Goblin Squad Member

Way to make Lee look bad Harad! LOL!

In all serious, great work, really great work!

Goblin Squad Member

Amazing work, Harad. Thank you for your time.

Goblin Squad Member

Awesome, this will tide me over untill the blog, thanks a lot!

One question (not for Harad specifically): why do numbers on the North/South axis go negative *above* the x-line, instead of positive?

It would be easier for me to locate a certain hex in relation to Thornkeep) if it would follow the the x,y system that I used at math. :)

Does this have something to do with how Unity works?

Goblin Squad Member

It follows the numbering in the full map from the blog. The numbers are relative to Thornkeep. Thornkeep is 0,0.

Goblin Squad Member

I know, I was just wondering why Lee/Stephen decided not to follow this: What we are used to with math.

Now if you go up the map (North) you are going into the negative instead of positive with your y-coordinate.

Goblin Squad Member

Tyncale wrote:

I know, I was just wondering why Lee/Stephen decided not to follow this: What we are used to with math.

Now if you go up the map (North) you are going into the negative instead of positive with your y-coordinate.

I expect that has something to do with what Nightdrifter was talking about.

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Tyncale wrote:

I know, I was just wondering why Lee/Stephen decided not to follow this: What we are used to with math.

Now if you go up the map (North) you are going into the negative instead of positive with your y-coordinate.

I expect that has something to do with what Nightdrifter was talking about.

It's to do with the orientation/ordering of the coordinate systems so that things don't get messed up in certain math. Admittedly there's not likely to be any need to do cross products (or the more advanced wedge products) in PFO. That and you can deal with "left handed" coordinate systems by changing a bunch of definitions, so in the end it's largely because the system is following mathematical conventions that come about when you pick y as the vertical axis.

If you wanted a more intuitive east and north are positive then you'd need z to be the vertical direction instead of y.

Edit: I should point out that this is due to it being 3D. A 2D example would be if you (for whatever reason) decided to use x as north-south and y as east-west. Then similar conventions would make it so that north and west are positive. (Think about if you took the axes and rotated them on top of your map so that the x axis now pointed where the y axis used to point while not changing the map itself. The y axis now points to the west. Similar arguments can be made for 3D, including the above. It's just that in 3D there are more possible axes of rotation so it's harder to describe in words.)

Goblin Squad Member

Thanks for the explanation, so it makes sense for the developers but it is not particularly usefull for us grunts.

I am curious how players will use locs in the game, it does seem that talking in hexes and hex-coordinates is the way to go for now.
I guess it depends how the ingame map will look, it may work with a more conventional numbering like in Everquest. (1267,-245,45)Though talking in hexes actually makes sense, since hexes and their specifics play such an important role: "the escalation hex you are looking for is 3 hexes down, 2 to the left from Brighthaven, right next to a meteor-hex, so be careful."

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

Stephen has mentioned that the y being vertical is a Unity default, so this effect probably shows up in a lot of Unity games.

In principle it should be straightforward to use both the hex numbering system and a more intuitive system like EQ. Heck, it may be implicitly built into GW's code in some way since they have to let the game know where hex borders are on the map (maybe; I don't know the details of their code).

On the other hand it was briefly mentioned (when they showed the whiteboards) that global coordinate systems don't seem to work in PFO or something along those lines. From a purely mathematical point of view I don't see a reason behind this, so it must be some idiosyncrasy of the code. Even if the code doesn't allow for a hex-to-intuitive-global-coordinate transformation, there is mathematical precedent for 'patching together' different coordinate systems. Worst case scenario may involve making a special add-on to do the conversion.

In practice I would assume that hex numbering will be displayed in some way as controlling hexes is a crucial part of settlement conflict. Ryan has mentioned that hex transitions are smooth (as in you can't tell when running around when you make the transition), but we'll ultimately need to have that information in some form in order for those settlement conflicts to not be a total mess. (Imagine EVE without being able to know the name of the system you're in and being able to transition to nearby systems without using gates. Now imagine coordinating large scale warfare under those conditions.)


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Nightdrifter wrote:


On the other hand it was briefly mentioned (when they showed the whiteboards) that global coordinate systems don't seem to work in PFO or something along those lines. From a purely mathematical point of view I don't see a reason behind this, so it must be some idiosyncrasy of the code. Even if the code doesn't allow for a hex-to-intuitive-global-coordinate transformation, there is mathematical precedent for 'patching together' different coordinate systems. Worst case scenario may involve making a special add-on to do the conversion.

From a purely mathematical perspective you are absolutely correct in that there isn't any reason not to use the global coordinates. From a computer science perspective there are only so many bits in a float which limits how precise it can be. One way to help prevent the effects of limited precision is to limit how large floats get. I'm sure one of the other programmers could explain more but that is the underlying reason for converting between hex-relative coordinate systems as opposed to referencing things by their global positions.

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

Taylor Hainlen wrote:
Nightdrifter wrote:


On the other hand it was briefly mentioned (when they showed the whiteboards) that global coordinate systems don't seem to work in PFO or something along those lines. From a purely mathematical point of view I don't see a reason behind this, so it must be some idiosyncrasy of the code. Even if the code doesn't allow for a hex-to-intuitive-global-coordinate transformation, there is mathematical precedent for 'patching together' different coordinate systems. Worst case scenario may involve making a special add-on to do the conversion.
From a purely mathematical perspective you are absolutely correct in that there isn't any reason not to use the global coordinates. From a computer science perspective there are only so many bits in a float which limits how precise it can be. One way to help prevent this loss of precision is to limit how large floats get. I'm sure one of the other programmers could explain more but that is the underlying reason for converting between hex-relative coordinate systems as opposed to referencing things by their global positions.

Ah, I see. That makes sense. Thanks Taylor!

Perhaps a solution could be to map the hex coordinates and the hex number into a global coordinate that lacks the precision of the hex coordinates. Hex number is a pair of integers, hex coordinates are (presumably) a pair of floats. Take these four numbers and throw them into some function which spits out a pair of integers, or perhaps a pair of floats which work on a different scale as the hex coordinates. Eg. hex coordinates are in centimeters and global coordinates are in meters. Or just round the global coordinates in the calculation. Or let the float be what it wants to be and don't worry about the limited precision.

I would expect the above to lose maybe ~2 decimal points of precision on each axis (since there will be double digits for hexes along each axis) if you wanted the global coordinate to be a float. If you want to be conservative and worry about massive expansions of the map, chop off 3 points of precision. In practice that should still be useful info to players. If I wanted to tell you where something is in my house you need information of a certain precision (hex coordinates), but if you only need to know where my city is on the globe you don't need anywhere near that precision (global coordinates).

I would assume for distance calculations that hex coordinates are needed (and maybe hex numbers for very large distances). But global coordinates could be purely something displayed in the UI and never used in any other calculation because of their limited precision. Eg. the global coordinate function is part of the UI's coding and is never referenced by combat code or the like.

Less precise global coordinates would be purely for player reference and their in game meaning doesn't necessarily have to be well defined. Or rather they just need to be a rough estimate of where you are on the map. It just needs to allow players to communicate roughly where they are on the map without having to go through the awkwardness of specifying their hex and their location within the hex, ie. giving 2 numbers to specify your position instead of 4.


Nightdrifter wrote:


Ah, I see. That makes sense. Thanks Taylor!

Perhaps a solution could be to map the hex coordinates and the hex number into a global coordinate that lacks the precision of the hex coordinates. Hex number is a pair of integers, hex coordinates are (presumably) a pair of floats. Take these four numbers and throw them into some function which spits out a pair of integers, or perhaps a pair of floats which work on a different scale as the hex coordinates. Eg. hex coordinates are in centimeters and global coordinates are in meters. Or just round the global coordinates in the calculation. Or let the float be what it wants to be and don't worry about the limited precision.

I would expect the above to lose maybe ~2 decimal points of precision on each axis (since there will be double digits for hexes along each axis) if you wanted the global coordinate to be a float. If you want to be conservative and worry about massive expansions of the map, chop off 3 points of precision. In practice that should still be useful info to players. If I wanted to tell you where something is in my house you need information of a certain precision (hex coordinates), but if you only need to know where my city is on the globe you don't need anywhere near that precision (global coordinates).

I would assume for distance calculations that hex coordinates are needed (and maybe hex numbers for very large distances). But global coordinates could be purely something displayed in the UI and never used in any other calculation because of their limited precision. Eg. the global coordinate function is part of the UI's coding and is never referenced by combat code or the like.

Less precise global coordinates would be purely for player reference and their in game meaning doesn't necessarily have to be well defined. Or rather they just need to be a rough estimate of where you are on the map. It just needs to allow players to communicate roughly where they are on the map without having to go through the awkwardness of specifying their hex and their location within the hex, ie. giving 2 numbers to specify your position instead of 4.

I would just like to point out that I was only explaining why we end up working internally with vectors in hex-local coordinate spaces. The loss of precision is incredibly important for internal workings as it can cause 'fun' effects such as graphical errors.

As for how we end up displaying that info to the end user I can not comment officially, but it is my opinion that it would be a safe assumption we would not be showing you the hex-local coordinates. I do agree that from a player's perspective 2 coordinates for position in world would be considerably nicer than 4. As you mention the loss of precision from a player's perspective would likely not be an issue for the world map.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Losing two figures of precision is fine for navigation, but really bad for placing terrain features.

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

If the global coordinates are only displayed on the UI to give players an idea of where they are and never used anywhere else then there shouldn't be any issue with placing terrain features or weird jumpy movement or the like coming from lessened precision.

Goblin Squad Member

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New Map with names of first 3 Land Rush Winners. If I misspelled the name, post corrections here.

Goblin Squad Member

Harad Navar wrote:
New Map with names of first 3 Land Rush Winners. If I misspelled the name, post corrections here.

I can verify that Phaeros is properly spelled.

I'll also take the blame for making it hard to tell whether to use TSV or T7V, but after I had to say T7V a few times, I realized TSV is a better choice, so if you wouldn't mind changing that for us, I'd really appreciate it :)

Goblin Squad Member

The name of the Aeternum city will be Callambea, not Golgotha. Golgotha is a division of Pax unto itself.

Goblin Squad Member

Harad Navar wrote:
New Map with names of first 3 Land Rush Winners. If I misspelled the name, post corrections here.

Thanks, a couple of things:

Pax Aeternum, not PAX if you don't mind.

Callambea is the settlement name. Golgtha merged and joined us post the first landrush. They will be voting with everyone else on the new leader boards.

Goblin Squad Member

Thanks, Nihimon, Pax Morbis, and Pax Charlie George. I will make those changes this weekend. I may have more changes to make if the badlands hexes have been changed to monster hexes per a post I read briefly from Lee Hammock. I haven't finished the blog thread yet.

Goblin Squad Member

Harad Navar, if it helps, here's a link to the Original Land Rush Map that we used to make our choices.

Goblin Squad Member

Pax Charlie George wrote:
Pax Aeternum, not PAX if you don't mind.

I can soooo relate to this. I have a devil of a time trying to explain how "Nihimon" is pronounced; it doesn't help that my wife likes to tease me by telling folks it's "knee-high-mon"...

For those interested, it rhymes with "try him on" if you dropped the "h" in "him" like the Brits do.

Goblin Squad Member

Yea, we didn't become an LLC because we thought it was a cool thing to do so the greater the distinction between Pax Gaming LLC and Penny Arcade Expo (PAX) the better =P

@Nihimon - You'll be happy to know for those of us who are not you, it only takes a few weeks of conscious effort when reading your name to not say "nee hee mon" and then we start correcting others in team speak who pronounce it wrong. =)

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:

I can soooo relate to this. I have a devil of a time trying to explain how "Nihimon" is pronounced; it doesn't help that my wife likes to tease me by telling folks it's "knee-high-mon"...

For those interested, it rhymes with "try him on" if you dropped the "h" in "him" like the Brits do.

I've been pronouncing it wrong this whole time...

It's like the beginning of "nihilistic" then?

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Harad Navar, if it helps, here's a link to the Original Land Rush Map that we used to make our choices.

Thanks, I have have that.

Goblin Squad Member

Pax Areks wrote:
... and then we start correcting others in team speak who pronounce it wrong. =)

You have my sincere gratitude :)

Pax Shane Gifford wrote:
It's like the beginning of "nihilistic" then?

For some... Many say "nihilistic" like "knee-illistic".

It's more like the "nihi" in the common American pronunciation of an-nihi-late.

Goblin Squad Member

I was just basing the pronunciation on what dictionary.com was telling me. :P

Goblin Squad Member

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It's spelled Nihimon but it's pronounced Raymond Luxury-Yatch.

Goblin Squad Member

Lhan wrote:
It's spelled Nihimon but it's pronounced Raymond Luxury-Yatch.

I want to be on tele-vision!

Goblin Squad Member

Pax Shane Gifford wrote:
I was just basing the pronunciation on what dictionary.com was telling me. :P

Dictionary.com is my preferred source as well, and yes, the first pronunciation there captures the essence of it :)

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Pax Shane Gifford wrote:
I was just basing the pronunciation on what dictionary.com was telling me. :P

Dictionary.com is my preferred source as well, and yes, the first pronunciation there captures the essence of it :)

Since my handle is a work nickname I picked up, it pretty much follows rules that are beyond my control (you don't get to pick your nick name, after all).

Right now that tends to make the proper pronunciation a little involved

Goblin Squad Member

Good work Harad

Goblin Squad Member

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I have been thinking about the future of the Unofficial PFO Map and I have made some major changes to fit that future. For this revision I have gone back to an image format as the detail is now easier (at least to me) to see. I have moved from icons to hex boundary colors for monster, monster home, badlands, settlement, and NPC hexes. I know that this may be difficult for those users with vision impairment, but in general I think it simplifies the visual presentation of the map. I have brokenland hexes as a Resource Layer as I may be adding more resource designations when they are found. PC settlement icons will now be different based on the state of development of each PC settlement. NPC settlement will not have an icon.

New Map

By the end of Land Rush the map will evolve into an Unofficial PFO Atlas. The Atlas will have many pages of collected information on essences, resources in terrain types, information on settlements provided by settlement leadership (in a standard format I have yet to develop), and the ever changing political landscape. As chartered companies/guilds become official I will be adding pages for them as well, again in a standard format.

I do not as yet have the new Land Rush settlement letters, as they have not been released as of this post.

Goblin Squad Member

Great work again Harad. I haven't decided which one I like best yet, but am leaning toward this latest version!

Goblin Squad Member

I agree, this latest version is wonderful, and easy to see!

Outstanding work, again!

Thank you Harad!

Goblin Squad Member

Thank you, Harad! If you don't mind notes: per the Land Rush map, 02.16 changed to cropland.

Goblin Squad Member

Awesome work Harad!

Goblinworks Programmer

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
Thank you, Harad! If you don't mind notes: per the Land Rush map, 02.16 changed to cropland.

I do believe there are further changes to the land rush map so it may be easier just to wait for us to push the official one in a few days and then start worrying about updating this to match.

Also have I mentioned I love this map? Good job Harad!

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Pax Charlie George wrote:
Pax Aeternum, not PAX if you don't mind.
For those interested, it rhymes with "try him on" if you dropped the "h" in "him" like the Brits do.

So you mean NIE-ih-mon?

Goblin Squad Member

Like 'Nigh-eh-mon' like 'Nigh Unstoppable'

:D

Goblin Squad Member

Or Nigh Invulnerable, if you are a fan of The Tick ;)

Goblin Squad Member

Proxima Sin wrote:
So you mean NIE-ih-mon?

Exactly :)

Goblin Squad Member

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You realize forever and always now I'm going to call you Bill Nihimon the science guyimon.

Goblin Squad Member

We get to bill him??

Goblin Squad Member

Latest Unofficial PFO Map showing Land Rush 2 settlement and hex terrain type changes.

Goblin Squad Member

05.-07 is no longer a settlement hex. In general, any settlement hexes less than three hexes from each other should be a mistake.

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