I have been wondering how to handle archers in melee as a GM.
How hard is it to sunder a bow? I seem to recall in 3.5 that since it is not a melee weapon, a bow is just considered an item held in hand, which is a whole lot easier to sunder than a melee weapon. This might have changed in Pathfinder though.
I was reading through the Bow Fighter advice thread here, and didn't see any feats or abilities mentioned that would help against a sunder. Is it just not that easy?
Honestly if it is nearly impossible to sunder a bow by RAW, I will probably create a house rule to make it easier. Melee build carry a ranged weapon for when the can't close into melee, I see no problem with forcing a ranged character to carry a backup melee weapon for when they are forced into it.
The closest analog for a bow would be a two-handed hafted weapon. So you're looking at Hardness 5, 10 HP for a Medium bow.
At 5 HP or less, the bow gets the broken condition:
If the item is a weapon, any attacks made with the item suffer a –2 penalty on attack and damage rolls. Such weapons only score a critical hit on a natural 20 and only deal ×2 damage on a confirmed critical hit.
At 0 HP, it is destroyed.
So if you can do 15 HP of damage in one shot, you can destroy a mundane bow.
Magic weapons get +2 Hardness and +10 HP for each Enhancement bonus (so things like Keen don't apply):
A +1 Bow has Hardness 7 and 20 HP.
A +2 Bow has Hardness 9 and 30 HP.
etc.
EDIT:
Also note that you can Sunder in place of an Attack, so if an archer shoots next to you and provokes an AoO, you can use it to Sunder. If the Archer is not wielding a melee weapon (if they don't have Improved Unarmed Strike or Armor Spikes, basically), your Sunder won't provoke an attack from them. If your Sunder destroys the bow, they don't get their shot.
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It's slightly easier than that. There's an entry on Table 7-12 for projectile weapons; they have Hardness 5 and 5 hp.
But also bear in mind that a wise player will usually purchase a few Fortifying Stones and enchant their bow with Impervious.
It's slightly easier than that. There's an entry on Table 7-12 for projectile weapons; they have Hardness 5 and 5 hp.
But also bear in mind that a wise player will usually purchase a few Fortifying Stones and enchant their bow with Impervious.
Well, there you go.
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I can't find any rules indicating that you treat melee weapons differently from any other item. You can try to sunder any item carried or worn by a creature.
According to this page on Damaging Objects a "projectile weapon" has hardness 5 and 5 hp, making it quite easy to sunder (relative to other items).
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It's slightly easier than that. There's an entry on Table 7-12 for projectile weapons; they have Hardness 5 and 5 hp.
But also bear in mind that a wise player will usually purchase a few Fortifying Stones and enchant their bow with Impervious.
Well, there you go.
Well, that's fair, people undertaking active effort to protect their stuff should get a reward for the money they expend (up too 4000gp it seems - not nothing).
If Redward sunders my bow, I will burn this thread to the ground. TO THE GROUND.
You're a Zen Archer. You can probably spend a Ki point to fix it or something. Stupid Zen Archers...
Wait, if you have Improved Unarmed Strike or Armor Spikes and fire a bow you don't provoke an Attack of Opportunity?! That totally sounds like it is using the letter of the rules instead of the spirit. If true that will be house-ruled out immediately.
Fortifying Stones seem a little cheap and cheesy. Luckily we don't play with that source anyway, so no need to house rule them away. The Impervious ability actually sounds cool. And it does make sense that someone would want to spends some money and effort to protect their valuable weapon or item.
Other than that, there is no penalty for using a ranged weapon in melee combat? It is just as easy to resist a sunder with a bow as with a sword (same DMD)? That just doesn't sound right to me.
Basically I don't think it should be that good of an idea to use a bow in melee. If you want to spend a bunch of feats so you can full attack in melee that's fine. Just hope that you take the guy out before he gets a chance to go, because your bow is going to be gone next round.
Just to clarify, I don't actually want to sunder the character's bow. I just don't want him to wade into melee with it like it was a greatsword. If he gets in melee he should drop the bow and pull a backup melee weapon. Melee is already overshadowed a bit by archers, no need to take away their melee superiority as well.
Wait, if you have Improved Unarmed Strike or Armor Spikes and fire a bow you don't provoke an Attack of Opportunity?! That totally sounds like it is using the letter of the rules instead of the spirit. If true that will be house-ruled out immediately.
No. Attempting a combat maneuver without the appropriate "Improved" feat usually provokes an attack of opportunity. Unless the archer has something like IUS, armor spikes, or a spiked gauntlet they are incapable of taking this attack of opportunity because they don't threaten.
Other than that, there is no penalty for using a ranged weapon in melee combat? It is just as easy to resist a sunder with a bow as with a sword (same DMD)? That just doesn't sound right to me.
The penalty is that you provoke attacks of opportunity for every shot you fire. These attacks can be used to smack you in the face, disarm you, trip you, or break your bow. Since the attack of opportunity interrupts the bow attack a successful disarm, trip, or sunder attack that destroys the bow prevents them from attacking at all. A sunder attempt that does enough damage to break the bow will cause them to take attack, damage, and critical penalties until it's repaired.
Basically I don't think it should be that good of an idea to use a bow in melee. If you want to spend a bunch of feats so you can full attack in melee that's fine. Just hope that you take the guy out before he gets a chance to go, because your bow is going to be gone next round.
I think having the chance to completely lose your weapon or suffer an even worse fate is enough of a penalty for firing while in melee. :P
The ironwood spell is also very handy for an anti-sunder conscious archer. Makes the bows wood act as the hardness and HP as iron.. Which I believe is 10 hardness 10 HP.
Only listing for iron is 10 hardness and 30 HP/ inch thickness, under substance hardness. Assuming 10 hardness and 10 HP for iron, to be used for ironwood spell.
So normal bow.. 5 hardness/ 5 HP
Made with ironwood spell: 10 hardness/ 10 HP
W/fortifying stone: 15 hardness/ 30 HP
+5 enhancement on bow: 25 hardness/ 80 HP
W/ impervious: 35 hardness/ 130 hp
Optional (without ironwood spell):
Normal bow: 5 hardness/ 5 HP
W/ fortifying stone: 10 hardness/ 25 HP
+5 enhancement: 20 hardness/ 75 HP
W/ impervious: 30 hardness/ 125 HP
Bow made from darkwood: 5 hardness / 10 HP
W/ Fortifying stone: 10 hardness/ 30 HP
+5 enhancement: 20 hardness/ 80 HP
W/ impervious: 30 hardness/ 130 HP
Other bow material options are:
whipwood- actual anti-sunder since it give +2 CMD vs. sunder. Can't be used with ironwood spell.
Darkwood- slightly harder wood, nothing more, +5 HP over normal wood.
Greenwood: not a bad option, can self repair, under certain conditions.
Wait, if you have Improved Unarmed Strike or Armor Spikes and fire a bow you don't provoke an Attack of Opportunity?! That totally sounds like it is using the letter of the rules instead of the spirit. If true that will be house-ruled out immediately.No. Attempting a combat maneuver without the appropriate "Improved" feat usually provokes an attack of opportunity. Unless the archer has something like IUS, armor spikes, or a spiked gauntlet they are incapable of taking this attack of opportunity because they don't threaten.
Ah, that makes more sense. Armor spikes and spiked gauntlet still seem a little cheesy, but I'm not going to rule them out just because I personally don't care for them.
Other than that, there is no penalty for using a ranged weapon in melee combat? It is just as easy to resist a sunder with a bow as with a sword (same DMD)? That just doesn't sound right to me.The penalty is that you provoke attacks of opportunity for every shot you fire. These attacks can be used to smack you in the face, disarm you, trip you, or break your bow. Since the attack of opportunity interrupts the bow attack a successful disarm, trip, or sunder attack that destroys the bow prevents them from attacking at all. A sunder attempt that does enough damage to break the bow will cause them to take attack, damage, and critical penalties until it's repaired.
Yeah, that is a pretty good penalty. Right up until you get some feat or ability or something that allows you to ignore it. Still seems to me that you should get a -5 or something to your CMD when trying to resist a sunder with a bow. I'm not going to do that yet though. I will see what the rest of the group thinks. (I generally don't just pull the GM fiat card.)
Basically I don't think it should be that good of an idea to use a bow in melee. If you want to spend a bunch of feats so you can full attack in melee that's fine. Just hope that you take the guy out before he gets a chance to go, because your bow is going to be gone next round.I think having the chance to completely lose your weapon or suffer an even worse fate is enough of a penalty for firing while in melee. :P
I totally agree. Which is why I want that threat to actually be there. If the threat is there, but so improbable that it will never actually happen, then it really isn't a threat anymore.
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Wait, if you have Improved Unarmed Strike or Armor Spikes and fire a bow you don't provoke an Attack of Opportunity?! That totally sounds like it is using the letter of the rules instead of the spirit. If true that will be house-ruled out immediately.
Fortifying Stones seem a little cheap and cheesy. Luckily we don't play with that source anyway, so no need to house rule them away. The Impervious ability actually sounds cool. And it does make sense that someone would want to spends some money and effort to protect their valuable weapon or item.
Other than that, there is no penalty for using a ranged weapon in melee combat? It is just as easy to resist a sunder with a bow as with a sword (same DMD)? That just doesn't sound right to me.
Basically I don't think it should be that good of an idea to use a bow in melee. If you want to spend a bunch of feats so you can full attack in melee that's fine. Just hope that you take the guy out before he gets a chance to go, because your bow is going to be gone next round.
No. I believe what he was trying to say was if the archer uses his bow within melee range of an opponent, the opponent would get an AoO. As part of that AoO, the opponent could then choose to sunder the bow. As the archer is armed with only the bow (no improved unarmed, no armor spikes), the sunder does not then give the archer an AoO as well.
Which I'm not actually sure I agree with, since an arrow can be used as an improvised melee weapon. Not a terribly good one, but if my bow had just been sundered, I'd sure as hell try it (assuming they don't have Improved Sunder of course).
Edit: Also, my mind boggles at the idea of an archer that would a)use a bow in melee, and b) not have a decent back up melee weapon.
As a GM, I would consider this a perfectly valid tactic... but knowing how players can be VERY attached to their gear, I would also make sure that a replacement (or repair) can be had without too much pain.
Another tactic to consider... keep in mind that you have to have the appropriate strength to draw a composite bow. One Ray of Enfeeblement will likely leave them unable to draw their bow until it wears off.
Which I'm not actually sure I agree with, since an arrow can be used as an improvised melee weapon. Not a terribly good one, but if my bow had just been sundered, I'd sure as hell try it (assuming they don't have Improved Sunder of course).
You don't threaten with an improvised weapon.
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Which I'm not actually sure I agree with, since an arrow can be used as an improvised melee weapon. Not a terribly good one, but if my bow had just been sundered, I'd sure as hell try it (assuming they don't have Improved Sunder of course).You don't threaten with an improvised weapon.
Please cite for that. I just did a quick search and there's nothing I can find that supports that.
Would sundering a bow be even easier if you hit the string with your sword? I feel like there should at least be a chance of this.
I wouldn't say so. Landing a perfect slice on the bowstring would be much more difficult than just aiming at the bow in general.
It would also be much harder to reach, especially considering that a defender is actively moving their weapon to try and keep you from hitting it.
Please cite for that. I just did a quick search and there's nothing I can find that supports that.Which I'm not actually sure I agree with, since an arrow can be used as an improvised melee weapon. Not a terribly good one, but if my bow had just been sundered, I'd sure as hell try it (assuming they don't have Improved Sunder of course).You don't threaten with an improvised weapon.
I stand corrected. I had conflated the -4 penalty for fighting unarmed as a non-proficiency, and non-proficiency as the reason someone doesn't threaten when unarmed.
Another tactic to consider... keep in mind that you have to have the appropriate strength to draw a composite bow. One Ray of Enfeeblement will likely leave them unable to draw their bow until it wears off
Not quite. They'll just be -2 to hit for using a bow with a higher str mod.
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Another tactic to consider... keep in mind that you have to have the appropriate strength to draw a composite bow. One Ray of Enfeeblement will likely leave them unable to draw their bow until it wears offNot quite. They'll just be -2 to hit for using a bow with a higher str mod.
And I stand corrected as well... not sure why I thought you couldn't draw them at all.
I stand corrected. I had conflated the -4 penalty for fighting unarmed as a non-proficiency, and non-proficiency as the reason someone doesn't threaten when unarmed.Please cite for that. I just did a quick search and there's nothing I can find that supports that.Which I'm not actually sure I agree with, since an arrow can be used as an improvised melee weapon. Not a terribly good one, but if my bow had just been sundered, I'd sure as hell try it (assuming they don't have Improved Sunder of course).You don't threaten with an improvised weapon.
Weapons (improvised or otherwise) need to be wielded - so that you are threatening - to make AOO. The Bow is being wielded, not the arrow. Wielding an arrow is not the same as drawing it as part if firing it. QuickDraw might make that distinction moot.
And I stand corrected as well... not sure why I thought you couldn't draw them at all.Another tactic to consider... keep in mind that you have to have the appropriate strength to draw a composite bow. One Ray of Enfeeblement will likely leave them unable to draw their bow until it wears offNot quite. They'll just be -2 to hit for using a bow with a higher str mod.
Yeah, and there's a (relatively cheap) enchant to prevent that from happening, too: Adaptive
I'd suggest that sundering a bowstring is relatively easy, but the downside is that replacing a sundered bowstring is relatively easy too. Mst archers would have a few extra bowstrings along in case theirs broke or got wet.