Dealing with a Selfish Player

[ciretose]

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

ciretose I think you and I are reacting to exactly the same thing, but with different approaches. I am scratching my head too.

Agreed, although I'm not scratching my head. I took a lot of gender courses in college and I game with a fairly split group. Many gamers think they are being chivalrous rather than sexist when they "defend" the "girls" in the group.

I disagree with some of the arguments about changing the game to be more inclusive, as I think that perpetuates the actual problem that keeps women out.

They are seen as 2nd class at the table and treated almost like children who need to be coddled.

They don't.

When you are literally talking about creating imaginary characters in worlds, everyone is on equal footing going in.

The problem is many gamers don't get that "If there are any girls there, I want to do them" is horribly sexist in the same way that if I said (oh, how do I do this without going to far...hell with it) "If there are any Jews there I want to barter" is incredibly racist and probably would push away the Jewish community from your game.

Chivalry is, ironically, sexist.

We don't have these issues at our table, and we have actual female friends (not women we bring into "our hobby" in hopes they will touch our pee pee, but who are always visitors to "our hobby")

I was brought into the gaming group I am currently in by a female friend of mine who actually also introduced me to my wife and was best "man" in my wedding.

She gets treated no differently at the table than the rest of us.

That is how you get women into gaming, IMHO. Treat them like everyone else. Like people.

And again, assuming the OP is accurate, she needs to be treated like everyone else would. Kicked to the curb.

[ciretose]

John Kretzer wrote:

ciretose wrote:

Sir Ophiuchus wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

Well if we're being quite honest I HAVE never met a man who knits so that bit stuck out as odd to me. Sewing, yes, but never knitting.

Hah, yes. It jarred for me a bit as well, but I figured changing it would be way worse than just leaving it as is. To be fair, I'm a guy and we were all taught to knit in primary school.

We have a male player who knits, but never at the table. That would to me be the equivalent of saying "I've got better things to do than pay attention".

In defense of knitting...my grandmother used to knit...you could have fully in depth conversation with her while she knitted. It is just something to do to keep your hands busy.

Just because someone knitting does not mean they are not paying attention.

Still got to roll dice. If they are good enough they can drop it immediately, fine. But that isn't my experience.

[John Kretzer]

ciretose wrote:

Still got to roll dice. If they are good enough they can drop it immediately, fine. But that isn't my experience.

That is good reason...if you can't roll dice it is kinda hard to play....but note your reason was they are not paying attention.

Also you are right it is probably has to do with the experience and skill level of the knitter. It is though in my opinion something I would not ban from my table automaticaly.

[Doomed Hero]

ciretose wrote:

assuming the OP is accurate, she needs to be treated like everyone else would. Kicked to the curb.

Nailed it.

[Sir Ophiuchus]

ciretose wrote:

That is how you get women into gaming, IMHO. Treat them like everyone else. Like people.

And again, assuming the OP is accurate, she needs to be treated like everyone else would. Kicked to the curb.

Yep, couldn't agree more.

[Vincent Takeda]

Yay. So we've reached a consencus. If the OP does ever return to his thread here's a nice cliffnotes version of what we have so far.

op's got a girl at his table who has been a problem for a long time

according to the OP everyone at the table agrees she's hostile and troublesome

they are at the end of their rope

In response we have

handle it out of character

Chat her up about it over tasty treats (why didnt people think this one was sexist?)

Dont be biased. Boot her. If she were a him you'd have booted him.

Her knitting isnt the reason she's causing trouble and theres nothing wrong with knitting at the table

If she's causing this much trouble she may not share an interest in the game

She may have a fantastic multitude of other possible interests/interesting reasons that keep her at the table even though its clearly not working out so great

one of those many many reasons she may be at the table is because of a boy

true or not, that fact is not insulting. not to women, gamers, gaming or anything else.

even if you dont understand why

and more especially if you passionately disagree

The Dunning-Kreuger effect being what it is

because many women show up to things they dont want to do or aren't good at because of a boy

sometimes it works out very badly for everyone

the unbiased thing to do would once again be to boot her

she may not even be bad at gaming

just bad for this particular table

if that is true the right answer is. yup. you guessed it. Boot her.

jumping to the conclusion that she may be at the table because she's dating someone may be insulting to females, female gamers, gamers, or even the gaming industry or the hobby of gaming

unless it isnt

since i am a gamer who loves gaming

as most male gamers are

and occasionally also loves women

as most heterosexual male gamers do

and in an effort to not estrange my love of my hobby from my relationship that i care deeply for, choose to introduce the two to each other

as most gamers do

making such things in fact rather common

which doesnt always work out

even if I especially wished it would

as most gamers do

because being a girl doesnt always mean you're the best at everything you do

even if you don't really want to do it

and are only doing it to be nice to me

or only doing it to make my friends upset so they'll kick us both out and you can have me all to yourself

which never happens

unless it does

in which case she should be treated fairly

without bias

and get booted

even if you dont want to

with every fiber of your being

for any number of reasons

none of which can possibly measure up to the fact that her presence at your table isnt going so great

even if she's hot and single

in which case maybe you really are being an insulting, sexist pig who reflects poorly on gamers and gaming and the gaming industry and all that

but doesnt solve the problem that her hotness isnt making a good gamer out of her

and there's obviously nothing anyone at your table can do about it

and nothing she can do about it

even though she's female and is therefore super awesome at everything

unless she isnt

so you have to boot her

because even if she were a him the idea of keeping her around wouldnt make sense

even if it means 'him' would be a knitter

not that theres anything wrong with a him thats a knitter

as in fact many of them are

or all of them are

even at a gaming table

which can be great because it can help you stay focused

even if your focus is to ruin everyone else's fun

though in that case you should still be booted

some of us would like you to not only boot her but tell us if she's dating someone at the table

but all of us think you should boot her

or boot her and then get her in the sack

and then talk and laugh about the whole thing over tasty treats

because she's probably hot

as all passionately and successfully disruptive women are

even if they arent

and she probably loves tasty treats

as all passionately and successfully disruptive women do

unless they dont

and even if thinking they are and do is insulting

and chauvenistic

and reflects poorly on men, women, gamers, gaming and/or the gaming industry, etc. etc.

and not one iota of that will matter if you let her keep ruining your game by not booting her

because she's not the only gender at the table who knows how to knit

hope to hear from you soon!

[Calybos1]

Jessica Price wrote:

It is anything but "innocuous" - it perpetuates the stereotype that we are only in games if we're dating another player. It suggests we're not legitimate gamers, it sexualizes us in a non-sexual context, and it defines us solely by our relationships to male gamers. In short, it doesn't treat us like full participants or human beings.

Actually, it suggests that the only reason crappy, frustrating fun-killer players are kept around is because they're dating another player, which is often the case.

Plenty of female gamers are welcome at any table. Fun-killing narcissistic nuisances like the one described in the OP tend to remain at the table only if there's another competing factor keeping the group from booting them... and chivalry (i.e., sexism) is one of the worst offenders.

I would never suggest that the player's behavior is bad because she's a girl.. but I DO suggest that a lousy player like her is being kept in the game because she's a girl. So which kind of sexism is worse?

[Broken Arrow]

This is going to be awesome... I can't wait for the OP to return and tell you all that she is the GM's GF.

Oh yes - my two cents - how over sensitive can you mob get? There are a number of players out there who turn up because their good mate, cousin, brother, wife convinced them to. Sure they enjoy it to some extent, but if that SO wasn't there, nor would they.

Acknowledging this doesn't disparage the rest of you awesome people who are there for amongst other things, glory and riches (aka beer and chips).

We have two chicks at a table of five. One was a pain in the a$$ but we can't get rid of her because she's the GF of one of the other players. It's just an unfortunate fact - see it that way rather than as some attempt to objectify females.

[The 8th Dwarf]

Troll...?

OPs first post.

Hot button gender issue.

Scored points on getting Paizo employee involved in the thread.

[Katz]

why hasn't this thread been locked? OP's issue was solved early on (many times) in the thread, and it's devolved into arguing over semantics and whether or not a specific phrase is sexist, or implies this or that...

[Adamantine Dragon]

It hasn't been locked, I suppose, because other than one comment that was edited to ameliorate its impact, the commentary has been mostly polite and to the point instead of a bunch of name calling and "jerk behavior."

Are you suggesting, Katz, that any controversial subject should be automatically locked? Are we not allowed to discuss gender issues on these boards because the subject alone bristles certain hyper-sensitive types?

I hope not.

[3.5 Loyalist]

We should lock all the vaguely interesting threads, because someone might get offended.

[Chris Lambertz]

We have a few threads discussing the women in gaming and various related topics. Whatever answer the original poster was seeking has been obscured by the off topic posts in this thread. In the future, please consider the messageboard rules before posting. Thread locked.