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Spoilers abound...
I did not like Dawnguard. It was a horrible disappointment for one reason.
It made no sense.
Were the new armors cool? Yes. Were the new perk trees great? Yes. Was it cool to turn into a vampire? Yes. Hell, were the new locations like the Soul Cairn beautiful? Yes, all of the parts were wonderful additions to the game world.
Except the story made no sense. Jarringly, painfully, no sense.
You are recruited as as a Vampire Hunter. You are sent on basically the first mission to go kill Vampires. You discover an ancheint Vampire with an elder scroll and...YOU ESCORT HER TO THE HEAD VAMPIRE SO SHE CAN GIVE IT TO HIM?!?!?!
Worse yet, she knows he is evil, so why does she want to give it to him? And why do you help her? And why does he let you go?
Yes they added cool things, but it was like they watched that cool video we all watched with all the ideas they came up and said "Put in all the things!" without even trying to make sense as to "Why". Worse, they ruin Canon by throwing Elder Scrolls around like candy.
Remove the story and the "stuff" is great. But the story ruined it.
Contrast this with Dragonborn. You return to a place you've been before, and they know it. You play with nostalia and canon. The reason you are there makes sense. The things you do, make sense. It isn't perfect, but I don't have to completely suspend disbelief of any logical reason on the first real mission so you can deux machina me to being a Vampire.
The most hyped new feature in Dawnguard (riding the dragon) is probably the least interesting thing in the quest to that point.
And yet, some people loved Dawnguard.
I think I may use this as a test in the future to figure out who I want to game with. If you aren't bothered by the horrible story in Dawnguard, because you only cared about the shiny new ways to kill things...well, we probably aren't compatible gamers.
I wasn't bothered by the Dawnguard story because I was a vampire to start with and joined the Dawnguard with the full intention of finding some way to screw them.
And cool stuff is still cool.
Haven't played Dragonborn yet though. How does it stand up to Shivering Isles in your opinion?
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I wasn't bothered by the Dawnguard story because I was a vampire to start with and joined the Dawnguard with the full intention of finding some way to screw them.
And cool stuff is still cool.
Haven't played Dragonborn yet though. How does it stand up to Shivering Isles in your opinion?
Shivering Isles was great because it was supposed to be ridiculous in the Cannon of the Game.
Even if somehow you played the one concept that made sense, the person who joined the Dawnguard specifically to betray them and be evil, you have to admit the cheapening of the value of Elder Scrolls was utterly ridiculous.
Edit: And weren't you outed as a Vampire when you tried to join?
I was not, mostly due to a mod I've been running for a while.
Sumo Mortalis Forma worked perfectly well. Allows you to disguise yourself as a human. Suppresses most of your vampire abilities (not weaknesses) but allows you to pass even when people would automatically be set to "Always Hostile".
And yeah, I do remember thinking "How in the hell did she get her hands on an Elder Scroll?" upon playing it. Especially with all the effort you had to go through in the first game to jack one of them.
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And there was no reason to make it so easy, or even to have them.
It was just such crap storytelling, which ruined what could have just been cool item/location DLC. If they had just added the Snow Elf stuff and had the vampire stuff be a side quest like when you become a werewolf, great.
But they ruined the setting with all the scrolls, and ruined the verisimilitude with the irrational plot.
To each their own. I love Dawnguard. The only downside to Dawnguard is the fast travel vampire attacks and the havok they can cause if you are not careful. I now have to fast travel to the stable outside the city i want to go to, Wait until morning and then walk in and maybe be then attacked by a vampire and its allies.Serana is one of the best followers and i was very impressed with the new dungeons and how they tied it to the main quest. The soul cairn and the elf valley are very rewarding if taken slowly
I started a new character recently with all three expansions and its a much better experience than vanilla skyrim. My level 30 character last night fast travelled with Lydia and Serana to a town quest location. I chose the vampire side this time as i want the full experience as a vampire lord. The vampire lord has tons of cool abilities/side quests and has added benefits for necromancers/khajiit. When i fast travelled i was attacked at the same time by Dawnguard, a powerful dragon, and a new enemy from Dragonborn. The battle at this location was a blast. The dawnguard used cover and spread out while the dragon attacked both me and whoever was close. The other enemy also attacked and i was glad i had my two companions plus tons of healing potions.
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The Soul Cairn and the Valley were beautiful. And they didn't make any sense in the plot what so ever.
Serena was very powerful. And had no consistent logical motivations. "My Dad is pure evil, lets take him an Elder Scroll"
This is exactly what I mean about style over substance. It added "Cool" stuff, but it made no effort to have that stuff fit into any logic of the game world.
I laughed out loud when Serena appears in the middle of the Dawnguard Castle to work with the vampire slaying Dawnguard if you choose to stay with the Dawnguard, right after you and she handed the BBEG the Elder Scroll for basically no reason.
both seemed to fit into the overall plot. One is a hiding place and the other is a lure/trap.
The Serana relationship seems more complicated than that. She volunteered herself to become a vampire but as she gets older/wiser she realizes how badly she was played by both parents. It reminds me of when people escape a real world religious cult and realize the world isnt what they thought it was. In those cases if you betray/leave the cult you can never go back. Sometimes these same people get the plocie to go after/destroy the cult. She was locked away for hundreds of years so she had time to think about her decisions. She gives her dad the scroll but realizes shes made a mistake and for skyrim there does seem to be some emotion to it (compared to most other NPCS in skyrim). Your the first emotional humane person shes met in a long long time. She then trusts you to help her (whatever side you take).
If anything i wanted them to develop this storyline even further and its too bad they can add onto expansions. I want random transformed vampire lord attackers!
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I'm really only just getting into Dawnguard and haven't explored much at all of Dragonborn, but I've got to agree somewhat with ciretose. I'm not entirely bothered by the railroading in Dawnguard, but the whole Serana/Elder Scroll thing and me not being able to waste her does seem a little unbelievable. I lit her up as soon as I saw her glowing eyes and didn't stop burning her until I realized she wasn't fighting back and she wasn't dying.
Isran's whole Badazz Vampire Hunter schtick also goes right down the toilet if you take Serana to Fort Dawnguard instead of Castle Volkihar. Instead of telling you to set her on fire and take the Elder Scroll, he just says to take her where she wants to go and see what the vampires are planning. Really, Isran? You're basically Blade and Van Helsing rolled into one dude and you want the vampires to have an Elder Scroll? I'm left to assume Serana emits some kind of powerful charm or Illusion spell in order to force you to take her home.
I was also disappointed that I couldn't pick a fight with Harkon and his crew the first time I met them. Even if the odds of winning are completely nil, I want to be able to respond to Harkon's offer of becoming a vampire by shooting him in the face. I joined the Dawnguard to kill vampires so, dammit, game, let me kill some vampires.
On the up side, I've started playing a game with Serana where I occasionally try to murder her. The game started after I saw her push Annekke Crag-Jumper off a bridge. It's bad enough she wouldn't stay locked up when I tried to trap her in a tiny room behind a portcullis so she'd stop following me, but now she was trying to kill my follower. I Fus Roh Dah'd her off the bridge to teach her a lesson. Now, I can't wait to take her to the bridge leading to the college of Winterhold.
"I Fus Roh Dah'd her off the bridge to teach her a lesson."
What does that mean?
Vanilla skyrim is the same way. 1/2 the people are tagged as essential (including chickens). In most cases you can attack them but cant kill them. They are hostile to you but at some point they reset and are friendly. Its only an illusion that you have freedom to choose endings in main quests.
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Yeah. I made one character with the simple goal of killing every kill-able NPC in the game and was frustrated to learn how many characters are marked essential. There are dozens of immortal characters who have no part in any quest and just wander around jabbering. I did learn something vaguely interesting though.
The Hall of the Dead in each large city has a coffin for every NPC who is able to be killed. If an NPC dies, whether you killed them or they die by other means like a dragon attack, their belongings go in their coffin. I suppose this could be useful if you don't want to murder people but you want their stuff and don't have access to their corpse for some reason.
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both seemed to fit into the overall plot. One is a hiding place and the other is a lure/trap.
The Serana relationship seems more complicated than that. She volunteered herself to become a vampire but as she gets older/wiser she realizes how badly she was played by both parents. It reminds me of when people escape a real world religious cult and realize the world isnt what they thought it was. In those cases if you betray/leave the cult you can never go back. Sometimes these same people get the plocie to go after/destroy the cult. She was locked away for hundreds of years so she had time to think about her decisions. She gives her dad the scroll but realizes shes made a mistake and for skyrim there does seem to be some emotion to it (compared to most other NPCS in skyrim). Your the first emotional humane person shes met in a long long time. She then trusts you to help her (whatever side you take).
If anything i wanted them to develop this storyline even further and its too bad they can add onto expansions. I want random transformed vampire lord attackers!
A hiding place that apparently everyone but the people living where the hiding place actually is, know about. Serena just handed over an Elder Scroll to dear old dad, why would she not also tell him about the other one. Or, since Dad has been there for millenia, ostesnibly searching for this thing, and he never looked in that tower?
Really?
And then an area almost as big as a hold, in a valley nearby no one had ever found.
Really?
The whole thing felt like different designers working on different unrelated projects and then suddenly they were like "Uh...so I guess we can figure out a way to mash them together..."
In Dragonborn, and the rest of Skyrim, they started with the story and incorporated the cool stuff as it made sense. Each subplot could have been worked into a story, all of the locations were interesting in their own way, you didn't need to have a nonsensical railroad ride through the whole thing, giving out Elder Scrolls like candy. But they did, and instead of something cool and fun to play it was a pile of mush that is only still in my game because of the armor and weapons.
The radial quests have more effort put into making rational stories of why you are doing things.
In my imaginary narrative, the whole story is a dream sequence. A really stupid dream sequence.
In Dawnguard they had lots of cool stuff and then tried to force it all into a story. Dragonborn really didn't have as much "stuff", it was more about Morrowind Nostaligia. But it was so much better. The main story made sense, but you didn't even really need to follow it to enjoy the new content.
Once again i'll compare it a cult. She believes in her dad until you come along and she sees a better option.
Seranas mom figured out how to escape and he had no idea where she went. I'm not even sure if anyone else had ever visited the soul Cairn before her. I thought the hell gate was a great idea although it was a pain to navigate. Same goes with the hidden valley. It reminds me of those classic dinosaur /king kong movies where its on planet Earth but nobody has ever visited. With Dimhollow i'm not sure whose side the vampires were on (will research). Where they working for Harkon. He seems suprised to see her and at the time she doesnt know why he wants the scroll.
I agree it stinks you dont have a 3rd option to attack him but most games dont even give you 2 options. Most of the time you are left with a cinematic scene (insert game here). Name one game where you can end the game at the first battle. Miraak is the same way in Dragonborn( i wont spoil it but i found Harkon much more satisfying). You cant kill Tullius or ulfric the first time and one of them tried to kill you in the opening of the game.
The Ebony warrior is the best boss battle in the game. He challenges you and then you prepare for the fight. Its classic "High Noon" duel.
If you want to break the game and kill all NPCS best bet is get a PC. Otherwise its the same in every console game
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She's been locked in a box for hundreds of years, she has an elder scroll, she knows everything she told you about her dad, you showed up, specifically, to kill vampires, but now you hand an elder scroll to her evil dad.
Next thing you know either you are in the Vampire cult (completely betraying the Dawnguard) or you are back at camp (because the really evil guy lets you live because he loves his daughter so much...as we find out as the plot continues...not) or suddenly she appears at Dawnguard HQ and everyone is all like "No, I trust this vampire who turned over an Elder Scroll..."
The fact that the Valley was cool doesn't mean it made any sense.
You seem to not care that it made no sense. You just like to hit stuff. i base that on:
"The Ebony warrior is the best boss battle in the game. He challenges you and then you prepare for the fight. Its classic "High Noon" duel."
And that isn't "wrong" but it kind of proves my point about "Style over Substance".
Miraak isn't even close to the same event as the first meeting with Harkon.
Harkon is a better "fight". If you want a combat game with no logic to the story, great.
I'm a Mass Effect (except the ending) kind of person.
Dawnguard=the dracula story
Dragonborn=Cthulu/lovecraft.
I love both but tell me how the Dragonborn plot is so great?
Like i said its the same as vanilla skyrim. Its the same as most RPGS. Most RPGS are solve a puzzle, hack/slash and take the valuables. Mass Effect was make choices/shoot them all and then hate the ending. Dragon Age 1 might be a better RPG for you. Last few minutes/choices were great and some of the best in a RPG. Problem was it didnt translate into Dragon Age expansions or Dragon Age 2.
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The Dragonborn plot actually makes sense. It isn't "great", but it wasn't completely absurd like Dawnguard. You couldn't defeat Miraak without gaining the special stuff, so the first encounter made sense.
Vanilla Skyrim storylines made sense. Each step followed logically from the one before it, even if you were playing it good or evil.
None of the options in Dawnguard made any logical sense. Serena's actions made no sense. Her father's actions made no sense. The Dawnguard trusting her made no sense.
The whole thing made no sense. It was an excuse to plug in shiny stuff.
Dragons Age 1 was really good. It had an engaging story with a detailed world. The RPG is pretty good as well, for the same reasons. Dragons Age 2 was meh...
And it was almost secondary to everything else going on with the island.
In Dawnguard, if you are good it makes no sense to help Serana take the Elder Scroll to her dad (you are literally there to kill vampires), it makes no sense for him to let you go (he is planning on killing his daughter and he is evil as hell, so why not kill you).
If you are evil, why join the Dawnguard in the first place? Why not just have the option being you get recruited by Harkon to find his daughter?
It was like they weren't even trying.
Not to mention the "Go fetch" quests to places you've already been before for most of the main quest.
Vanilla skyrim has tons of go fetch quests. Mages college has tons. the go fetch quests on the vampire side lead up to the end battle. As an evil vampire you only turn on Harkon because you know he wont let you live. You can even give him to bow. He lets you go or turns you as the reward for saving his daughter. You cant get into the castle even if you are the most evil character to exist in skyrimm.Its the same as dakrbrotherhood and thieves guild. you have to be invited. He doesnt fully understand why he needs serana he only knows part of the prophecy.
Fethc quests-Its the same as the thieves guild, companions and the Dark Brotherhood.Its especially true in the mages college. They send you as the rookie for the most important quest. With one of these you give up your soul.
If you play the game as a new character those fetch quests all tie together and you get the scrolls as needed.
I'll concede the point as a Dawnguard it isnt realistic to work with Serana if you are this "absolute" vampire killer.Serana seems to be based on Selene from the Underworld movies. A vampire with good intentions. She convinces the leader of the Dawnguard that he needs her help. The leader of the Dawnguard has barely any troops or equipment and he cant even convince his old buddies to help him.
In the vanilla game there are vampires in powerful positions and only with tons of evidence can you even attack one of them.
DRAGONBORN adds a very large new area with an extensive main quest (taking 5-7 hours to complete) and tons and tons of side-quests. The mad mage living in the giant mushroom who keeps giving you more quests just when you think you've done them all is cool. The opportunity to invest in an archaeological excavation which goes - predictably - completely wrong was also a very entertaining idea. Gaining an entire tribe of mentalist Ewok goblin things as your personal minions (and having them randomly show up to help out in fights) was highly amusing.
They also beefed up the incidental stuff. The blacksmith in Raven Rock being related to one of the Thieves' Guild means you can have a good chinwag which is not releated to the plot, nor leading to more quests, it's just there as incidental detail and characterisation, stuff that's lacking a lot in Bethesda games. They seemed to step up that attention to detail in the game, which was good. The Cthulu library dimension was also highly atmospheric (and ended just as it was starting to get a bit tedious).
My main criticisms of it are that its dungeons over-use the draugrs as the main enemy (and they were already boring enemies in SKYRIM proper) and the 'riding dragons' stuff is so lame as to be totally pointless, but they're both very minor points.
At a rough estimate I'd say that DRAGONBORN adds a bare minimum of 25 hours of content to the game, making it a proper expansion pack. From what I've seen of DAWNGUARD it seems to add only about 5-7 hours in total, makes use of existing scenery (just with new locations added) and its major feature - allowing you to transform into a Vampire Lord - is completely pointless as you can't fit through doorways whilst transformed, nor can you use half your existing combat abilities. It is not a tempting purchase for me.
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Vanilla skyrim has tons of go fetch quests. Mages college has tons. the go fetch quests on the vampire side lead up to the end battle. As an evil vampire you only turn on Harkon because you know he wont let you live. You can even give him to bow. He lets you go or turns you as the reward for saving his daughter. You cant get into the castle even if you are the most evil character to exist in skyrimm.Its the same as dakrbrotherhood and thieves guild. you have to be invited. He doesnt fully understand why he needs serana he only knows part of the prophecy.
Fethc quests-Its the same as the thieves guild, companions and the Dark Brotherhood.Its especially true in the mages college. They send you as the rookie for the most important quest. With one of these you give up your soul.
If you play the game as a new character those fetch quests all tie together and you get the scrolls as needed.
I'll concede the point as a Dawnguard it isnt realistic to work with Serana if you are this "absolute" vampire killer.Serana seems to be based on Selene from the Underworld movies. A vampire with good intentions. She convinces the leader of the Dawnguard that he needs her help. The leader of the Dawnguard has barely any troops or equipment and he cant even convince his old buddies to help him.
In the vanilla game there are vampires in powerful positions and only with tons of evidence can you even attack one of them.
Only we find out later you can get in, because you actually need to sneak in later.
The Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild are optional quests. Pretty much the only thing Dawnguard adds to the game requires playing the quest, and the quest makes no logical sense.
It isn't just that it isn't realistic to work with Serena as a Dawnguard, it is that it is the opposite of what you were sent to do from the moment you joined the Dawnguard.
And, hello, Serena is a Vampire. The Dawnguard exists specifically to kill Vampires. They have a long elaborate set of defenses to keep out vampires and then hey, look, now we have a vampire friend! Sure she has been asleep forever, so she has no connection to us or knowledge of us, our history, etc...and yes her father is the BBEG, and yes she just gave an elder scroll to him...but apparently Elder Scrolls are now a dime a dozen, so whatevs...
And vice versa, it makes no sense to join the Dawnguard if you plan on becoming a vampire, no sense to deliver the elder scroll, etc...
They didn't even try. They had the clip they made and they plugged in all the stuff and any thought of making sense went out the window, probably due to deadlines.
Worst full DLC they have ever put out. Compare it to Mournhold, Bloodmoon, Shivering Isles, even Knights of the Nine made sense.
Dragonborn to me is below Shivering Isles, better than Knights of the Nine, on par with Mournhold and slightly behind Bloodmoon.
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DRAGONBORN adds a very large new area with an extensive main quest (taking 5-7 hours to complete) and tons and tons of side-quests. The mad mage living in the giant mushroom who keeps giving you more quests just when you think you've done them all is cool. The opportunity to invest in an archaeological excavation which goes - predictably - completely wrong was also a very entertaining idea. Gaining an entire tribe of mentalist Ewok goblin things as your personal minions (and having them randomly show up to help out in fights) was highly amusing.
They also beefed up the incidental stuff. The blacksmith in Raven Rock being related to one of the Thieves' Guild means you can have a good chinwag which is not releated to the plot, nor leading to more quests, it's just there as incidental detail and characterisation, stuff that's lacking a lot in Bethesda games. They seemed to step up that attention to detail in the game, which was good. The Cthulu library dimension was also highly atmospheric (and ended just as it was starting to get a bit tedious).
My main criticisms of it are that its dungeons over-use the draugrs as the main enemy (and they were already boring enemies in SKYRIM proper) and the 'riding dragons' stuff is so lame as to be totally pointless, but they're both very minor points.
At a rough estimate I'd say that DRAGONBORN adds a bare minimum of 25 hours of content to the game, making it a proper expansion pack. From what I've seen of DAWNGUARD it seems to add only about 5-7 hours in total, makes use of existing scenery (just with new locations added) and its major feature - allowing you to transform into a Vampire Lord - is completely pointless as you can't fit through doorways whilst transformed, nor can you use half your existing combat abilities. It is not a tempting purchase for me.
The stuff Dawnguard added with regards to Crossbows, Perk trees, Dawnguard stuff, was nice, which is why I haven't just undownloaded it completely. And with just a bit of effort they could have made the new areas into a coherent story (seriously, would it be too hard to have to pick which side right off the bat, so you aren't joining the Dawnguard to give the Elder Scroll to the BBEG in the first mission?)
It was lazy writing, probably because of deadlines and schedules. Which sucks, because it could have been really good.
Ok so you hate the idea of how it starts but how is it if you play the quest?
Also how many times has in ScIfi/fantasy series has the good guy worked with the bad guy for the better good. It happens all the time in marvel/dc comics, Star Trek, Dr Who, Lost, Buffy, Battle Star, Star Wars, Farscape. Probably close to 90%+ if the show/book series is long enough.
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I actually disagree on some of the Dawnguard statements.
The Soul Cairn was a /slog/. No useful map, everything looks identical, samish enemies everywhere, and a /16 part/ fetch quest and what was essentially hunt the pixel to get the content there. Also, given that I tend to play White Knight style Dragonborns, well, the entire DLC felt like it was taunting me 'You should be a vampire, don'tcha want to be a vampire, if you were a vampire..'
Dawnguard was endless wandering through huge complicated areas with no maps, and nothing discernably of value. It felt like I was playing Oblivion again.
Why is this cave here? So it can be filled with falmer.
Why is /this/ cave her? More falmer.
Oh and this one? Falmer.
Dragonborn felt more put together. And the Hermaneous Mora thing makes /sense/. You gain power by amassing knowledge (dragon souls, shouts), of course you'd be tied to that dude. Especially with the weird mythos of TOS, where Mora might be Akatosh might be Talos might be you, thing. I do admit to getting tired of Bethesda's rails at times though.
Also, I wanted to punch the villain from Dragonborn. With the endless smack talk and kill stealing. Harkon just felt like 'Generic Enemy #1' and his boss battle consisted of chasing his punk ass around his throne room, whereas the villain from Dragonborn felt like a throwdown.
Only problem I had with Dragonborn was I did it at level 48, so I didn't need any of the new gear and I was still an unstoppable god of death.
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Ok so you hate the idea of how it starts but how is it if you play the quest?
Also how many times has in ScIfi/fantasy series has the good guy worked with the bad guy for the better good. It happens all the time in marvel/dc comics, Star Trek, Dr Who, Lost, Buffy, Battle Star, Star Wars, Farscape. Probably close to 90%+ if the show/book series is long enough.
The problem is the bad start is the entire premise of the plot. The main character makes no sense.
If you are Dawnguard, you are now working with a vampire you rescued who caused all of the problems in the first place by giving her father an elder scroll. If you try to take her to the Dawnguard she refuses to go near saying "She has a bad feeling about this place" and the leader of the Dawnguard WILL TELL YOU TO GIVE AN ELDER SCROLL TO THE BBEG!?!?!.
The first quests is "fetch allies" and an elaborate "We need to make sure none of you are vampires, because even though you are all my loyal friends, you may have become vampires and therefore can't be trusted" followed almost immediately by the group devoted to killing vampires who just screened you now saying they will be allying with a vampire who gave her father the elder scroll (Lol, What?) so you can go rescue a moth priest from the Vampires which then makes Elder Scrolls, what used to be the hardest thing to locate in all of the game, into Pokemon (gotta catch 'em all!) where you get multiples throughout the quest.
Which was horrible.
Now that impenetrable completely inaccessible fortress Castle? You break into it. You go through a long elaborate puzzle to access...one of the castles towers. With the instruction written in a book, on the shelf.
Harkon is clearly dumb...
Seriously, one of the towers. With a door to the outside. Because no one ever looked in one of the towers...Now I have to become a vampire or have my soul trapped...annoying.
You go to the Soul Cairn, which is kind of cool except that you can't fast travel anywhere in it so getting lost is almost a given. You find Mom behind a gate you have to unlock for her so you can go inside and fight a dragon...
You get the scroll, you take it the moth priest, he goes blind...Ancestor Glade is ok, although the ambush at the end makes little sense...and then you are off to what is a cool part of the content, even if it doesn't really fit well.
Vampire makes slightly more sense (and I don't feel like going though it step by step), but why join the Dawnguard in the first place?
Having the good guy work with the bad guy for greater good is a trope. It is not the trope at play. This is just crappy writing.
Tell Karstaag that :)
Only problem I had with Dragonborn was I did it at level 48, so I didn't need any of the new gear and I was still an unstoppable god of death.
As a level 59 vampire fully set on gear, at the armor cap, and armed with a bow dealing something like 700 a shot and a blade dealing nearly as much (before I popped a potion of fortify) Karstaag wasn't really a problem.
Even the Ebony Warrior seems like he'll be a joke - though grinding pick pocket and similar skills to 100 is tiresome.
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Grinding Pickpocket? You're aware of this exploit, right? All you need is this book and a book shelf and you can level to 81 in a few minutes...at least on PS3 and 360. PC might be a different story.
Grinding Pickpocket? You're aware of this exploit, right? All you need is this book and a book shelf and you can level to 81 in a few minutes...at least on PS3 and 360. PC might be a different story.
Seems pretty cheesy though, and against the spirit of the game. Might dig up an uncapper mod though before long.
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One (likely unintentional) thing with Dawnguard I did enjoy was actually the hillarity of the 'vampire menace.'
Like the fact that in my game, the court they infiltrated was /always/ that waste of space's in Dawnstar. And every single time I had to tell the mental giant of a jarl that there was a vampire in his court and he didn't believe me despite the guy sitting there in black clothes with glowing red eyes and a form letter for infiltration.
Or the 'pilgrims' being totally not suspicious in their dark robes and glowing red eyes.
Or the propensity of the vampires to attack me at high noon.
I started calling them the Vampiric Inquisition after a point. So many naked decapitated vampire corpses littering my lawn in Whiterun...
Admittedly, part of my amusement came from instaling a mod that made normal people run for it when vampires showed, meaning that they incurred few fatalities as they were usually fighting the warrior/companion/essential types, and me.
I do wonder sometimes if its intentional to portray all organizations in The Elder Scrolls as dangerously incompetent though, since the Dawnguard, Vigilants, City Guard, Dark Brotherhood, Imperial Military, Stormcloak Military, Blades, and so on, are all kind of dumb.
I do wonder sometimes if its intentional to portray all organizations in The Elder Scrolls as dangerously incompetent though, since the Dawnguard, Vigilants, City Guard, Dark Brotherhood, Imperial Military, Stormcloak Military, Blades, and so on, are all kind of dumb.
Considering how you end up as the leader of roughly every organisation in the known world, I imagine you get by with a lot of middle-management. And, well, this is how it turns out.
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I do wonder sometimes if its intentional to portray all organizations in The Elder Scrolls as dangerously incompetent though, since the Dawnguard, Vigilants, City Guard, Dark Brotherhood, Imperial Military, Stormcloak Military, Blades, and so on, are all kind of dumb.Considering how you end up as the leader of roughly every organisation in the known world, I imagine you get by with a lot of middle-management. And, well, this is how it turns out.
I blame it on the fact that the Dragonborn/Champion of Cyrodil/Nevarine have a critical inabiity to delegate.
I mean if you're the head of the thieves guild, you're still burglerizing houses, if the Harbinger of the Companions you still get 'rat quests.'
I would've loved to have like a "quest" where some new guy came up to me for a job. Even if he messed it up and I had to go rescue his ass, it'd at least show I wasn't the only guy doing something.
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Grinding Pickpocket? You're aware of this exploit, right? All you need is this book and a book shelf and you can level to 81 in a few minutes...at least on PS3 and 360. PC might be a different story.Seems pretty cheesy though, and against the spirit of the game. Might dig up an uncapper mod though before long.
You have a bow that does 700 damage and you are opposed to cheese :)
"Admittedly, part of my amusement came from instaling a mod that made normal people run for it when vampires showed, meaning that they incurred few fatalities as they were usually fighting the warrior/companion/essential types, and me."-
i wish that xbox users had that mod. I have had to reload previous saves after seeing master vampires/dragons/hounds wipe out merchants/townfolk in riften and whiterun.I wouldnt think it would be that hard for the designers to put something in place that if its a dangerous situation the people flee inside. The thief being chased in Riften is constantly hiding and flees to the exit next to the meadery.
I agree with ciretose. If your bow is doing 700 i hope you are playing on Master or as of today legendary. With that much damage the game is no longer fun. Oghma Infinium is also going away as of updates starting today.
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I have two Run For Your Lives mods, both trigger noncombatants to run into the nearest house and hide from dragons and vampires respectively.
Next to Uncle Sheogorath's Hints, its the best two mods I've got.
Oghma Infinium bs was solved on PC a while ago too. PC is really the best for elder scrolls or any bethesda game really. The graphical trouble you experience is nothing next to your ability to fix tons of gameplay issues thanks to the mod community.
To tie back to the original topic for this conversation. I dislike Elder Scroll's hamfisted attempts to make me act nuanced. I can tell the designers wanted the sort of grey hero of old, as opposed to white knight, but it comes across as a DM who demands you not play alignment who then gets uppity when you genuinely want to try to be a good guy.
The Harkon thing is there probably because otherwise you'd never even meet the guy, until the very end, since he lives on an island in the middle of nowhere. Which does make me wonder where his people go to feed, when the nearest settlement is the freaking capital /Solitude/ and is a good march away.
Unless they attack the Thalmor at the Northwatch Keep, in which case I should shake their hands. Oh god...maybe the Thalmor give them prisoners.. I Just gave myself another reason to beat up the poncy keebs.
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Because you couldn't have Harkon appear any other way?
It was just lazy storytelling or game design that requires a vampire killer to help the vampire take an elder scroll to the BBEG, not to mention having so many Elder Scrolls...hell if you are have Elder Scrolls, you can have Harkon appear in a vision from the Elder Scroll. Worked for Alduin...
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Because you couldn't have Harkon appear any other way?
It was just lazy storytelling or game design that requires a vampire killer to help the vampire take an elder scroll to the BBEG, not to mention having so many Elder Scrolls...hell if you are have Elder Scrolls, you can have Harkon appear in a vision from the Elder Scroll. Worked for Alduin...
I'm actually kind of glad for the scrolls personally. Not to the...trading card extent here, but well.. They haven't really shown up in two games in a series ostensibly named after them.
And I wasn't justifying teh Harkon thing, just explaining it. I'd have rather met him in a way like finding Serana who says 'My father has an elder scroll secreted away and I was sealed up by my Mother to keep the prophecy from happening!' And then bam, reason for having Serana as an erstwhile ally (she knows the way in) and a reason to sneak into the place and encounter Harkon as a vampire hunter. Alternatively, if you're a vampire you just get some guard talking about that 'creepy castle in the north' and bam, as opposed to having the join Vampire Hunters to find the Vampires.
As for Harkon, well my problem with harkon is he's well..a punk.
The guy you encounter in the Valley is a MUCH more interesting character. Emnity with the gods, writing prophecy, undead falmer servants, and genuine rage. Not to mention the snow elves and their fate are actually kind of interesting in Skyrim. Harkon's just some scrub Molag Bal worshipper. The fallen Snow Elf guy should have been the villain. Instead we get Harkon because Serana is all tied up with him, and he gives the Dawnguard a fortress to assail with their fancy crossbows.
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If the plot had been the snow elf stuff, I would have been much happier with the whole DLC, so I agree with you. When I got there I was like "Why wasn't this the story? This is actually interesting and opens up new locations and context!"
I kind of wonder if it was the original plan, derailed by people getting excited about the Vampire stuff in the video. I agree they could have done a lot more interesting things with Serena and make that a choice you make (Take her to the Dawnguard or Harkon) and have the plot break out based on that choice, but they didn't. You really don't need to join the Dawnguard, it could have been something you decide at the very beginning (You hear about two castles, pick one)
As to the Elder scroll stuff, the main plot of the main Skyrim quest revolved around an Elder Scroll, so I'm not sure I agree with you on that part.
You have a bow that does 700 damage and you are opposed to cheese :)Grinding Pickpocket? You're aware of this exploit, right? All you need is this book and a book shelf and you can level to 81 in a few minutes...at least on PS3 and 360. PC might be a different story.Seems pretty cheesy though, and against the spirit of the game. Might dig up an uncapper mod though before long.
Yes. It's one thing to make smithing gear and potions and use them to create weapons near the ceiling of the game proper, it's another entirely to use exploits to rapidly level up or otherwise exploit bugs (such as the lesser restoration bug). I mean, what's the point? Great, you've maxed out a bunch of skills. What now? Why not max them out exploring the world? I've probably got four-five hundred hours in Skyrim and I still find new places now and again. Mind you, this is across ten or eleven characters all in the 40-60 range.
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If the plot had been the snow elf stuff, I would have been much happier with the whole DLC, so I agree with you. When I got there I was like "Why wasn't this the story? This is actually interesting and opens up new locations and context!"
I kind of wonder if it was the original plan, derailed by people getting excited about the Vampire stuff in the video. I agree they could have done a lot more interesting things with Serena and make that a choice you make (Take her to the Dawnguard or Harkon) and have the plot break out based on that choice, but they didn't. You really don't need to join the Dawnguard, it could have been something you decide at the very beginning (You hear about two castles, pick one)
As to the Elder scroll stuff, the main plot of the main Skyrim quest revolved around an Elder Scroll, so I'm not sure I agree with you on that part.
Well its because (and I might be wrong) we didn't really have any scrolls in Oblivion and Morrowind, so its like we're making up for lost time with three in Skyrm. I think they might have been in the thieves guild quest in Oblivion, maybe?
I do admit, I enjoyed the PC-think dialogue option too where the Dragonborn wants to make armor out of them since they're indestructible
An Elder Scroll is part of the Thieves Guild questline in Oblivion, but since I also like to play good guy characters, I almost never encountered it.
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Yes. It's one thing to make smithing gear and potions and use them to create weapons near the ceiling of the game proper, it's another entirely to use exploits to rapidly level up or otherwise exploit bugs (such as the lesser restoration bug). I mean, what's the point? Great, you've maxed out a bunch of skills. What now? Why not max them out exploring the world? I've probably got four-five hundred hours in Skyrim and I still find new places now and again. Mind you, this is across ten or eleven characters all in the 40-60 range.
To be honest, I've only ever played one character who got the Oghma Infinium right out of the gate and that was just to see how quickly it could be done. That character found it at about level 17 and I didn't play him long after that. I typically only play a character to about level 50 before starting over with someone new. I did grind my first character to level 79 before getting bored and starting over.
Ok pros for Dawnguard
-more powerful vampire and werewolf form
-amulets/ring for vampire form
-cool new horse
-weapons and armor (crossbows) etc
-summon a dragon to fight for you. Same dragon gives you a new shout which is very powerful
-new spells especially summons
-powerful new companion that has more conversation options and interacts with her environment
-ability to change appearance
-change spouse to vampire
-necromage
-new alchemy ingredients that can boost enchanting and make you tons of money in game
-war trolls
-new dog followers depending on side chosen.
cool new areas to explore
Downside
-weak reason to choose quest and why you chose side
-Why NPCS do what they do
-lazy writing
-vamp attacks in cities
Ok pros for Dragonborn
-New smithing techniques
-new large area to explore
-cool looking sword
-some new spells
-new shouts
-new book abilities
-new followers especially constructs
-cool sub quests
-new monsters
-respec your character
Downside
-dragon riding
-spears
-werebears- all missed opportunities
-lack of freedom to explore daedric realm
-Working with Daedric lord. No real choice to tell him off
-Ending is not satisfying especially if you are a "good guy player"
-Environment is dark and dreary
-more expensive than other expansions
To be honest, I've only ever played one character who got the Oghma Infinium right out of the gate and that was just to see how quickly it could be done. That character found it at about level 17 and I didn't play him long after that. I typically only play a character to about level 50 before starting over with someone new. I did grind my first character to level 79 before getting bored and starting over.
Yeah, I've got a bunch of characters hovering in that ~50 range. By that point you've usually maxed out one set of skills (be it archery related stuff, stealth, sword and board, or spellcasting) and picking up another can be quite difficult and tedious (especially magic). I'm trying to grind my High Elf Vampire and my Breton 'Red Mage' characters to the cap, but the slog from 50-81 feels ten times longer than 1-50. By that point you've mostly exhausted primary quests and can easily be capped on gear. Money loses its appeal and most of the monsters you encounter you can one shot. You have to really dig deep to find reasons to keep playing, as the only real quests left are generic go kill X, which just feels weird when you are such a powerful character.
The only major quest-line my Vampire hasn't done is the Companions (which would require I lose my vampirism), while the only one the Breton has left to the side is the Civil War (because I just haven't felt like it). I've taken to trying out a few quest adding mods - we'll see how they go.
So, it's official. No more Skyrim DLC.
Yeah. I made one character with the simple goal of killing every kill-able NPC in the game and was frustrated to learn how many characters are marked essential. There are dozens of immortal characters who have no part in any quest and just wander around jabbering. I did learn something vaguely interesting though.
Same here. When I found that even traveler like the High Elf counselor cannot be killed when meeting her in wildness, the illusion of "write your own story" is diminished. A random unkillable npc, once become hostile, would follow you from dawn to dusk if you don't knock him off from of a bridge or mountain.. New vegas did it better in this regard.
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Thats a common complaint between Skyrim and Morrowind. That being said, I do wish I could 'toggle' Essential status on people in Bethesda games.
Oblivion had a lot of people not essential who'd die to random system based nonsense all the time causing you to fail the quests they had. And Fallout 3 suffered from what I dubbed 'Big Town Paradox,' where you had places you wanted to revisit, but everytime you visited them at progressively higher level you were endangering all of the lives of the NPCs there.
The 'take a knee' thing in Skyrim is actually I think their attempt to meet both. It lets NPCs be killed (in theory) while still protecting them from the randomness of their own system. Its implemented /poorly/, but the idea has merit.
For me the biggest issue wasn't essentials. It was the fake-surrenders. Nobody genuinely surrenders. They surrender, run away, and then come back at you thirty seconds later. I'd have preferred if folks actually ran for the hills, or if you had to deal with a guy surrendering and then deciding what to do with him.
Stinks theres no more DLC. With all of its faults one of the best RPGS i have ever played. I will continue to play it until the next great RPG comes out
Any thoughts on what that "next great RPG" might be?
There are mods that fix NPC (including wild life) doing real surrenders and escape rather than running back to fight till death.
If I remember correctly, there is actually a hidden "can only be killed by player" function in skyrim (heard it from nexus modders) but was never used, which could easily fix lots of problems the essential npcs had caused.