Actually, consider the classic New X-Men in Champions terms:
Cyclops is all offense, no defense. Maybe the suit is body armor. Easy to build and dangerous but vulnerable.
Colossus is easy. Really strong and invulnerable. Works fine in the game.
Same with Wolverine, though if he's not using his claws it's kind of hard to justify enough damage to matter to anything that Colossus or Cyclops can't drop with one shot. Unbreakable bones and healing keep him going.
Storm is hard to build. A wide array of thematically linked but loosely defined powers, many of them very rarely used. Sure, flight, lightning bolts, gusts of wind doing extra knockback, but fog? rain? freezing temperatures to weaken opponent? actually creating storms? screwing up the weather patterns on a regional scale? And, as said before, very vulnerable.
Nightcrawler's barely useful in a fight. He's agile and hard to hit, but easy to hurt if you do. And he can't really hit hard enough to matter.
Colossus is easy, that's true. Wolverine is pretty simple as well. Storm is freakishly difficult to pay for because Champions has never really handled really wide thematic powers well. You could always go with a pretty broad power pool, but that's a lot of overhead for a player to have to work with and still ends up being very expensive.
But I think your thoughts on both Cyclops and Nightcrawler are much more narrow than the comic books have covered and that can be handled OK in Champions. Nightcrawler doesn't put out the kind of hurt that the other X-Men put out, but that's true in the comics as well. Duking it out with Juggernaut isn't Nightcrawler's bag - he goes after Black Tom Cassidy instead or he pulls off a maneuver to rip off Juggernaut's helmet, leaving him vulnerable to Marvel Girl. And Cyclops's power may be virtually all offense (though it has succeeded at missile deflection in a number of stories), but he's not the first X-Man for nothing. He's highly trained and has managed to keep ahead of even Wolverine in a scrap. The man should be built with several combat or even general levels to reflect his flexibility. So he puts many of them into DCV. That's fine in a superhero game.
The same with Spiderman's suit (although to a lesser degree, since that radioactive spider bite made him tougher, as well as faster and stronger, than a "normal").
Maybe I've been reading the wrong issues, but I've never seen Spider-Man get shot and say "Whew! Lucky I was wearing a bullet-proof suit!"
The same with Spiderman's suit (although to a lesser degree, since that radioactive spider bite made him tougher, as well as faster and stronger, than a "normal").Maybe I've been reading the wrong issues, but I've never seen Spider-Man get shot and say "Whew! Lucky I was wearing a bullet-proof suit!"
"Bullet-proof," no. However, he did upgrade from standard cloth a while before the Venom-suit issues. It doesn't completely protect him from guns and knives, but it's more resistant than normal clothing.
IIRC, one of the whole reasons he started wearing the Venom-suit in the first place was because it was better protection than anything he could make himself.
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The way Stun recovers when you're knocked out seems like it matches the source material well, but it also often led to our heroes slamming a downed bad guy a couple more times because if he wakes back up it's going to be a problem. Not a very heroic thing.
There's no good way in the system to represent what FASERIP called Power Stunts. Creative variations on your normal powers or novel, situational uses of them. Which is a very common thing in superhero comics. Powers are very mechanical, built on points and defined by the abilities not the special effects. If you've got an energy blast, you can't use it to slow yourself when falling from a plane, unless you bought something to reflect that, for example.
Champions has the skill called Power...which is exactly what that is for. Eventualy you will have to buy the power though...but considering how cheap powers can be...
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~~if you buy an energy blast you can't use it to slow your fall from a plane unless you also bought a power to reflect this ability(paraphrased)
As a 20 year player of champions (and DM of it) i wish to point out that your statement above is incorrect as of 5th and 6th editions. Champions now has a 'power stunt' mechanic subsystem which allows you to do just what you say in the example above. Just wanted to let you and others know, ;)
tsk, ninja'd by john. ah wells!
Champions has never really handled really wide thematic powers well. You could always go with a pretty broad power pool, but that's a lot of overhead for a player to have to work with and still ends up being very expensive.
The Variable Power Pool handles building Storm just fine. (have done similar)
fog? rain? darkness types.
freezing temperatures to weaken opponent? drains, targetted or area.
actually creating storms? screwing up the weather patterns on a regional scale? megascale, change environment.
And, as said before, very vulnerable. 'force field', bought to represent wind deflection and/or 'force wall' for larger version.
Champions has never really handled really wide thematic powers well. You could always go with a pretty broad power pool, but that's a lot of overhead for a player to have to work with and still ends up being very expensive.The Variable Power Pool handles building Storm just fine. (have done similar)
fog? rain? darkness types.
freezing temperatures to weaken opponent? drains, targetted or area.
actually creating storms? screwing up the weather patterns on a regional scale? megascale, change environment.
And, as said before, very vulnerable. 'force field', bought to represent wind deflection and/or 'force wall' for larger version.
I would also you could do it with a Multipower framework if you don't want to handle a VVP. Which a VVP can be very complex...my GM did not let me build a character with one till after I was playing in his games 5 years...
Also a reminder Champions is made to represent a broad base of comics...it is a generic system. So not every character in Marvel or DC can be translated into the system without tweaking the concept or the system.
Than again not every fantasy character can be translated into D&D with tweaking the concept or the system.
I was simply addressing the 'my power toolbox is too big to stat up' complaint. Yes, a multipower can give a 'storm' character a diverse list of options, and a VPP should be allowed with caution.
I was simply addressing the 'my power toolbox is too big to stat up' complaint. Yes, a multipower can give a 'storm' character a diverse list of options, and a VPP should be allowed with caution.
I know...but if somebody was not allowed to use a VVP as my GM did there are other options to do it with was all I was merely pointing out.
I get that's how it works in the comics. That's because the fights are under the author's control. They're orchestrated to give everyone something useful to do and to be fun to read. The GM doesn't have that much control. Players tend to be more tactical and abuse situations like that.
You can't get away with the Juggernaut's helmet thing too much in game. Either they just won't figure it out or it's too obviously "Here's the thing for the useless character to do." And most players won't waste time letting Nightcrawler try to beat up Black Tom, they'll have one of the heavies put him down with one shot and then everyone beats on Juggernaut.
Or if a typical player team were fighting the X-Men, they'd drop Cyclops and Storm quick with area attacks if necessary, ignore Nightcrawler and then focus fire on Colossus and Wolverine. Because that works. Pairing off and engaging separate appropriate targets doesn't. And Champions lacks a mechanism to make it work.
I think that if you're not willing to play to the genre, you probably shouldn't be playing genre-based role playing games. They won't be a good fit with your play style.
There may be mechanical advantages to taking out a lower-defense character, but that's playing pretty heavily to the mechanical metagame. Juggernaut doesn't go after Nightcrawler first because it's a waste of his time when he's got Colossus to worry about (besides, quite a few of his attacks are simply going to miss in Champions stat-ups due to the CV differential - just as they would in the comics). And Colossus doesn't go after Black Tom because either Banshee or Nightcrawler have already done so and someone's got to keep Juggernaut busy.
I agree that GMing superhero games can be a challenge because you have to come up with things to do for everyone - no matter what their divergent capabilities. But that's how the genre pretty much works.
Yes, you can simulate anything with a VPP, but it's really expensive and generally results in a character who's way underpowered for the points spent. Unless you're building the type of gadgeteer or wizard they're designed for.
Actualy VPP are the most cost effective things you can buy in the game. It is also the most powerful. Which is why in general GMs will restrict them. Which is why I am suggestion a Multipower...alot simpler way of doing it.
Sure, you can justify a force for a weather control character based on wind deflection. It's not really something Storm used though. At least not back in the days when I was following X-Men regularly. Maybe blowing projectiles aside, but I don't recall any "My punch would have knocked her out if it wasn't for the wind slowing it down!"
While this is I believe a new addition to the game(though you could have easily built it before in earlier Editions of the game) There is also Combat Luck...which 'armor' pretty much brought up as rolling with, or partialy deflecting a attack. That would probably work with most of what you are thinking.
See that is the thing I think you missed about the game...the special effects of a power is actualy very important in the game. The power Armor can be really thick skin...to a suit of armor...to just being agile enough not get hit directly...to a telepaths abilty to forsee the attack coming...etc.
As for "every character in Marvel or DC", I'm not exactly bringing up obscure examples. These are iconic characters that a lot of people will have in mind.
My point was if you take almost any character from any media and transfer them to any RPG their will need to be some adjustment to that character or the system. Just like how some scenes in a book just does not work in on the big screen.
Personaly if you make Storm in Champions and have to buy a power of a air force field...the Character is still Storm.
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I was going to mention that the Champs devs incorporated a power skill yet another poster has done so already. They did make it a rule at least in the 5E revised core book that one of the ways to speed up combat was to have low level thugs be taken out with one good solid hit or rolling a good attack role. Even before that I was just using common sense when it came to running fights. Mechanon was not going to go down without a fight. A regular guy or group robbing a bank the battle was over quickly.
They also advise to only allow important NPCs to make recoveries. So no need to worry about the bank robbers recovering from damage. Again before the included it in the rules I used common sense.
Rules wise I get that the complexity of some of the rules is not for everyone yet imo the only supers rpg that allows me to model any charatcer from comics. With the flexiability of the Multipower and VPP rules any character can be built. Even then unlike many supers rpgs some powers actually have labels warning the players and person running the game that power XYZ is more effective than some. With some outright labelled as being unbalanced enough to alter a entire scenario like VPPs. It's all clearly marked. Which cannot be said of every supers rpg on the market.
As wellwhat drew me to Champs more than other super rpg backgrounds is that unlike the rest of them it has a fully fleshed background. Doctor Doom clone check. Ultron Clone check. Evil Cobra style organization except more comptent and with better resources check.
As wellwhat drew me to Champs more than other super rpg backgrounds is that unlike the rest of them it has a fully fleshed background. Doctor Doom clone check. Ultron Clone check. Evil Cobra style organization except more comptent and with better resources check.
Despite the rocky period before they nailed in a final default setting, i do like the world/lore a great deal. Some of the NPC villains/neutrals/allies are pretty damn cool. (Caveat that there are, as always, some that won't appeal or fall flat to some. nicely, you don't have to use them!) Managed to include most of the niche tropes in one form or another, and the PC's are still expected to be the spotlight.
I recommend PHOENIX, a free expansion for d20 Modern. To me, it doesn't count as a superhero game if you don't have rules for knockback and tearing down buildings!
Been Playing Champions/Hero since '85. That is my system of choice for everything, but especially for supers.
5th edition Champions/Hero System. Best there ever has been. Not perfect, but what is?
My preferred edition as well, but I have elements from both 4th and 6th in mine. I love Damage Negation from 6th.
If you are okay with a fairly rules-light game, I would strongly recommend...
Supers! (and there's a free preview version linked below)
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/112152/SUPERS-Quick-Start
I have an extensive history with supperhero RPGS. I've played and GMed more than I can list, but here's a sample: Champions, V&V, Marvel FASERIP, Mayfair DC, Aberrant, Mutants & Masterminds, Truth & Justice (PDQ), BASH Ultimate Ed).
Supers! manages to do a better job of capturing the feel of a comicbook better than any other RPG I've come across. It's not perfect, but it does 90% of the job better than anything else.
Check it out!
If you are okay with a fairly rules-light game, I would strongly recommend...
Supers! (and there's a free preview version linked below)
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/112152/SUPERS-Quick-StartI have an extensive history with supperhero RPGS. I've played and GMed more than I can list, but here's a sample: Champions, V&V, Marvel FASERIP, Mayfair DC, Aberrant, Mutants & Masterminds, Truth & Justice (PDQ), BASH Ultimate Ed).
Supers! manages to do a better job of capturing the feel of a comicbook better than any other RPG I've come across. It's not perfect, but it does 90% of the job better than anything else.
Check it out!
I am curious have you ever tried New Brave World? If so what did you think of it?
Besides me mentioning it on the first page on this thread nobody else has mentioned it.
I am curious have you ever tried New Brave World? If so what did you think of it?
Besides me mentioning it on the first page on this thread nobody else has mentioned it.
I haven't played Brave New World, but from what I've seen it looks like it basically used a variation of Pinnacle's Savage World's system & I have played Necessary Evil, which also uses the Savage World system & enjoyed it quite a bit.
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Mutants and Masterminds just recently released a deluxe version of their Hero's Handbook (the core book for the system). Dunno what the difference between the older "regular" Hero's Handbook and the new deluxe version is, though. Probably not much, it's still considered 3rd edition.
The Deluxe version has a Random Character generator (PL 10).
There's new chapters with essays about the history of M&M.Updated stats for M&M's classic villains (Such as the Atomic Brain, the Clique and Omega)
Intro chapters for the Freedom City and Emerald City settings.
Wild Talents is my favorite. Like a mythos tome, after a day or so of noodling around I understood it and it's fiddily enough to do more or less anything.
I haven't played Brave New World, but from what I've seen it looks like it basically used a variation of Pinnacle's Savage World's system & I have played Necessary Evil, which also uses the Savage World system & enjoyed it quite a bit.I am curious have you ever tried New Brave World? If so what did you think of it?
Besides me mentioning it on the first page on this thread nobody else has mentioned it.
Um...you got it the wrong way....Brave New World...came first. Savage World was a attempt to turn that system(which is also related to Deadlands) to a generic system.
It is very similair mind you...but BNW is much better overall for what it was meant to do.
Have not heard about Neccessary Evil...kinda gaved up on Savage World when my one friend who always talked about it and running a game kinda have stopped talking about it.
I know this is an old thread, but with Man-Made Mythology recently released, I'll necro it. I bought the game and it seems pretty nice. I'll have a better idea of if it's balanced after tomorrow. Basically take Pathfinder with different multiclassing rules and add classes for Batman, Iron Man, superheroes, and magic superheroes. Seems pretty wide-ranging and decently balanced but I'll know more tomorrow. Only thing is that there aren't any like "improved" weapons or items, no magic items basically. It's odd because there isn't much to spend your resource points on if you're not a gadget-based guy.