So this topic was briefly approached in the AC blog post, but got swallowed by a deeper debate. So, I'd like to cover it here.
Your animal companion beats your initiative, what happens on their turn? For lack of any official ruling, I've simply ruled that if you don't need to push it, you can give it a command. If you need to push, it'll delay until your turn (but defending itself if necessary.)
Thoughts?
That's not exact fair to the AC in terms of flat-footedness. By RAW, I would think it gets its own initiative. But time is often an issue in PFS. For homebrew, I give everything its own initiative.
Sometimes its not fair, sometimes its overly generous (like when the pc would have beaten the AC). it evens out
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If the animal companion wins initiative, and is trained well, it will most likely delay until given instruction by its master.
If the animal companion wins initiative, and is trained well, it will most likely delay until given instruction by its master.
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Sometimes its not fair, sometimes its overly generous (like when the pc would have beaten the AC). it evens out
It depends on whether the animal companion has a better initiative modifier than the main character, if it does it will on average be losing out more than it is gaining - and of course vice versa. Only if the animal companion and character have the same initiative modifiers would it really even out.
If you're running a private game as long as you make the players aware of this rule that is okay, but if a GM is running PFS then they should ask the player whether this is okay - I am often okay with it for example, but if the player had maxed out the animal companion's dex and given it the Improved Initiative feat they should be allowed to run it on its own initiative.
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Also worth mentioning, speaking is a free action allowed out of turn. So you should be able to give commands to your AC on its initiative. A lot of commands require you to point, so an uptight GM might not allow those, but verbal commands should be legit.
Though honestly, for ease of use, practically everyone I've played with just has the AC go on the PC's turn.
Just because speaking is a free action you can take on another character's turn, does not mean that any free action that requires speaking can be taken on another character's turn.
Handling your druid animal companion is a free action. That means it has to be done on your turn.
Unless it has already been ordered to do something (e.g. Defend, Guard), I just have the animal companion delay.
Also worth mentioning, speaking is a free action allowed out of turn. So you should be able to give commands to your AC on its initiative. A lot of commands require you to point, so an uptight GM might not allow those, but verbal commands should be legit.
Though honestly, for ease of use, practically everyone I've played with just has the AC go on the PC's turn.
This won't work since it takes a move action to direct a trained animal to perform a known trick (or a full round action to get it to do anything else). This is reduced to a free action in the case of animal companions, but it is not the same free action as speaking, and thus cannot be taken out of turn.
It's the handle an animal action VS push an animal action VS speak/talk action; the rules of one action simply don't apply to another.
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If the animal companion wins initiative, and is trained well, it will most likely delay until given instruction by its master.
Generally, though depending on the training the AC might also be able to act - for example, if some other creature has attacked the master, the AC may attack that creature.
My group runs ACs on the master's initiative as well. The one-creature thing is a bit of a downside, but it's ust so much simpler.
On the first page, mark moreland said that the critter would hold for instructions Linky
(Sorry for the low signal to noise ratio in that thread)
darkwarriorkarg, how is applying the first attribute increase to intelligence ignoring developer opinion? They stated you can do this.
Regarding what an animal companion can do if it wins initative is covered by the following blog the OP probably referenced (note it is a PFS blog but I believe it is pretty universal):
Animals and their Tricks
Increased Animal Companion intelligence is more extensively discussed in this blog:
Monkey See? Monkey Do
In short, I believe that your AC can win initiative but it cannot perform any tricks until you command it to.
- Gauss
Typically my druid's AC delays action until the druid's turn. On occasion I or the GM may rule that something goads the AC to the point that it will act on its own, but that's rare. The last time something like that happened an enemy had attacked my druid so the AC attacked that enemy.
For those of you suggesting that you can't even command the AC to "stay" because that's technically a handle animal trick request and has to be done on the druid's turn, how do you then deal with the druid handling the animal on her turn when it's not the AC's initiative? Does the AC have to sit there until its turn comes back up in the initiative order before it can react?
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darkwarriorkarg, how is applying the first attribute increase to intelligence ignoring developer opinion? They stated you can do this.
Regarding what an animal companion can do if it wins initative is covered by the following blog the OP probably referenced (note it is a PFS blog but I believe it is pretty universal):
Animals and their TricksIncreased Animal Companion intelligence is more extensively discussed in this blog:
Monkey See? Monkey DoIn short, I believe that your AC can win initiative but it cannot perform any tricks until you command it to.
- Gauss
Other than Defend, yes.
If the animal companion wins initiative, and is trained well, it will most likely delay until given instruction by its master.Or until attacked, or master is attacked. Defend does not require an order. Animal delays until forced to defend or ordered otherwise seems perfectly reasonable.
Why does everyone seem to think I meant otherwise? My statement was in no way all inclusive. Hence why I said "most likely."
Not all animal companions know the guard and defend tricks.
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If the animal companion wins initiative, and is trained well, it will most likely delay until given instruction by its master.Or until attacked, or master is attacked. Defend does not require an order. Animal delays until forced to defend or ordered otherwise seems perfectly reasonable.Why does everyone seem to think I meant otherwise? My statement was in no way all inclusive. Hence why I said "most likely."
Not all animal companions know the guard and defend tricks.
I know you know better, my answer was not for your benefit. A lot of people seem to miss that Defend does not require a command.
It absolutely does require a command, but unlike other tricks, said command may be given well before combat begins. The reference to no command being necessary is in regards to the parenthetical text under the trick.
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It absolutely does require a command, but unlike other tricks, said command may be given well before combat begins. The reference to no command being necessary is in regards to the parenthetical text under the trick.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point then, but the PRD doesn't seem to agree with that.
Defend (DC 20): The animal defends you (or is ready to defend you if no threat is present), even without any command being given. Alternatively, you can command the animal to defend another specific character.
Never mind. You're not even listening.
It absolutely does require a command, but unlike other tricks, said command may be given well before combat begins. The reference to no command being necessary is in regards to the parenthetical text under the trick.
Defend (DC 20): The animal defends you (or is ready to defend you if no threat is present), even without any command being given. Alternatively, you can command the animal to defend another specific character.
Does that help?
Or do you have the whole party go at the same time as different initiatives are somehow too confusing?
Thats more than a little condescending.
Having the druid split up their turn is a huge pain in the rear with no upside to it.
1) Switching up peoples turns takes more time.
2) You're going to hit arguments over exactly what the critter was ordered to do
3) What does the critter do if things have changed? If the specific target it was told to kill is dead? If the wizard he was told to chew on has started flying? If there's now a mass of black tentacles in the way? If the fighter is now in the way of a charge but not in the way of charging a different critter?
It raises more problems than the complete non problem it solves.
1. Moot. It's not doing so.
It is doing so.
Every time combat goes from one person to another.
It takes a little time to get their attention, for them to look at the board, decide what to do, etc. So that Bob, Dm, Carl's critter Don, Carl, Sarah will take longer than Bob, Dm, Don, Carl& carls critter, Sarah
2. How complicated do you see this being? Kill that guy. Flank this guy.
I spelled this out already. IF everything goes according to plan not very. If plans go awry very. If on init count 15 carl says to attack that goblin and then that goblin dies then what? If there's suddenly an obstacle in the way then what?
3. You run the NPC. You run *lots* of NPCs, this should not be any harder than those. The command gives the NPC a higher priority or goal for it to accomplish which it tries to do.
We've heard this, we're not buying it. If i screw up and forget a bad guys feat or a buff spell and he dies, oh well that's what he was there for anyway.
Yes it is harder on the druid to coordinate between himself and another creature.. but that's not too surprising. This happens to parties all the time.
The rest of the party don't spend most of their lives together working together.
All that is happening here is that people are questioning how something been run for awhile.
And I'm asking you what the reason for the change is. What is it? Whats the goal? What problem are you trying to solve?
The easiest thing is for the AC to follow the master's initiative, but its not a big deal to go separately. At that point the AC should (in a perfect world) act like a very loyal animal. It should not rush to set you up for a flank, unless it druid/ranger actively trains it to do so. It should not chase down a caster, as an intelligence score of 2 hardly knows what caused a spell to happen. It would very likely bite the thing that leapt out and attacked the master. It might ready an action to bite something that gets to close to the master. The AC IMHO is not a second character. It is however, somehing fun to combine RP and combat with.
Mount your AC.
Now you share initiative.
That only works if your AC is suitable as a Mount.
*Human climbs on back of small poisonous snake* "Charge!"
get two: one on each foot, and invent in line skating.
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It absolutely does require a command, but unlike other tricks, said command may be given well before combat begins. The reference to no command being necessary is in regards to the parenthetical text under the trick.Defend (DC 20): The animal defends you (or is ready to defend you if no threat is present), even without any command being given. Alternatively, you can command the animal to defend another specific character.Does that help?
Regardless of whether or not Defend technically takes a command, I tend to assume that any animal that knows the Defend trick will defend the master by default in absence of other instruction, especially if it's an AC. The master can also decide to designate another creature (ex: the party wizard) as the defended creature.
If it doesn't require a command, that's what the animal will do naturally. If it does require a command it just makes sense for the master to give that command at the start of the adventuring day.
Yep.
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It absolutely does require a command, but unlike other tricks, said command may be given well before combat begins. The reference to no command being necessary is in regards to the parenthetical text under the trick.Defend (DC 20): The animal defends you (or is ready to defend you if no threat is present), even without any command being given. Alternatively, you can command the animal to defend another specific character.Does that help?
Okay, I see your point but I definitely parse it differently, as the even without bit is not inside the parenthetical comment. I would interpret that as 'one OR the other' even without any command given. Effectively, Defend is the animal's default state unless the player states otherwise, or the animal does not have the trick.
That said, I can see how it could be interpreted otherwise and I will submit it for FAQ & clarification.
You're not advocating group initiative are you?1. Moot. It's not doing so.It is doing so.
Every time combat goes from one person to another.
Stop with the slippery slope. Advocating one thing is not automatically advocating everything else. Deal with what i said, not what what happens if you take what i'm suggesting and crank it up to 11.
That would, of course be easier.. but it's not the rules. And you are not 'splitting Carl's turn' but rather Carl takes his turn with his PC and then his turn is done. It is not split, so it's moot.
You still have more splits with the DM running it. Its Then Ogre 1 Bob Carl Ogre 2 Sarah Bobs pet
When the allied NPC goes (Don), the DM plays him. Just as when the enemy NPC goes (Fred). This is not splitting a player's turn.
You have noticed that you're in the minority on this right?
Not everything is in the raw (case in point, raw argument for your position is woefully lacking).
If you want to run my critter I'm not playing at your table. If you try to play my critter in PFS, I'm going over to the paint and take.
The NPC makes it's decisions. It was told the priority. Same as if Carl's PC told Bob's PC to kill that goblin.
Except that the same DMs micromanaging the pcs resources are also the ones who are going to woefully underestimate the tactical abilities of the animals.
What would happen if Carl's Druid got paralyzed? Does Don stop attacking? No. Don makes his own decisions. He is not a robot or mindless creature, or extension of Carl's Druid's psyche.
No, and this is what you don't understand and won't respond to.
Fido IS an extension of Carl's psyche. Carl picked the critter. Carl made the character. Carl picked its stats. Carl picked his feats. Carl picked his skills. Carl gave the critter its personality.
Its entirely Carls, even if its only partially carl's druid's.
If Carl makes a mistake and Don dies, do we rewind time?
I didn't say that.
I didn't suggest that.I didn't hint that.
If you need to respond to what I didn't say instead of what I did say I think thats a very clear indication that your point isn't nearly as strong as you think.
If carl makes a mistake and then Don dies thats between carl and don: don isn't claiming any right to run carl. If the DM gets Carl's pet killed the consequences fall on Carl.
Animal Companions are not mindless, but they are limited to animal behavior other than what has been trained into them. They do not have a human level decision making process.
Without instruction an AC will probably NOT attack a creature twice it's size. Will probably not attack a creature it does not interpret as food. Assuming it has the Defend trick it WILL defend it's handler unless it has been told to do something else.
Simply put, AC's are being put into situations that is not within their nature and thus require handling to keep control of them.
So what would an AC do if he beat the handler on initiative? DEFEND. Why? Because that is all he is taught to do when not otherwise receiving instructions. (Note: that assumes it has the Defend trick, if it doesn't it would do something appropriate to its animal behavior or wait for instructions.)
What if there is nothing to defend or doesn't have the defend trick? Will it attack? It would depend on what it is attacking. Is it normally part of it's food chain? Is it hungry? Is it super aggressive? The GM sets the limits. The Player and GM should discuss Animal Companions before the player takes one. They should be on the same page regarding the nature of that particular AC when not receiving directions.
Attack: It attacks in the most direct way possible.
Defend: it attacks anything which attacks the subject of the Defend trick (default, handler).
Without the flanking trick they do not intentionally try to flank a creature. They can provide a flank and benefit from a flank. Carnivores that run in packs are more likely to flank (naturally) than creatures that do not. In my games a wolf may take a 5' step to gain a flank while a Constrictor will not. But even then to tell it to intentionally flank is a trick.
As a final note: I let my players run an AC (saves me the effort) but I step in whenever I think they are trying to do something beyond the scope of what they can do with an AC.
- Gauss
Simply put, AC's are being put into situations that is not within their nature and thus require handling to keep control of them.
So what would an AC do if he beat the handler on initiative? DEFEND.
On init 18 Fido goes and ... defends. What action is that exactly? Fight someone near his master? Go total defense?
On init 10 Leafytree goes and then either has to delay till turn 18 the next round, or try to give an order that's still going to be relevant to Fido halfway accross the round.
BigNorseWolf, what action? If nobody is nearby I would say it is either delay or ready.
And yes, this is why I prefer to synchronize actions to prevent issues like this. But, if the Player wants to complicate issues by having an AC that is uncontrolled then that is his problem (unless he makes it my problem in which case I will tell him that the AC only goes on his initiative from now on).
P.S. No 'e' in my name (Gauss). :)
- Gauss
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Simply put, AC's are being put into situations that is not within their nature and thus require handling to keep control of them.
So what would an AC do if he beat the handler on initiative? DEFEND.
On init 18 Fido goes and ... defends. What action is that exactly? Fight someone near his master? Go total defense?
On init 10 Leafytree goes and then either has to delay till turn 18 the next round, or try to give an order that's still going to be relevant to Fido halfway accross the round.
I can only say how I would manage that, but Defend would be 'Delay until something attacks me, or my master.' If nothing attacks the AC, the Druid could then give it a command on their action, and the animal companion would then come on to the clock immediately after the Druid.
Fight Defensively and Total Defense, well, that's kinda messy... I could easily see an argument that those would require tricks (for the Druid to order it to do so).
If Fido weren't an AC, but were just a charmed animal traveling with the party...
If you predicate a critters action on a players action (handle animal in this case) I'm putting them together. If the critter is acting largely independently i don't mind splitting them. There's no distortion off of "the one true game" going on here. Its the game most people have been playing, you can't find raw to support your idea of the one true game(tm), and you can't make an argument for it being a better game.
A wizard can comman..erm make a stronge suggestion to a charmed NPC out of turn (because talking is a free action you can do out of turn). Handle animal is (usually) a free action that you're probably limited to during your turn. Splitting the command and the action apart is just plain annoying.
The arguments for Fido being Carl's just pile onto that.