He is now a NPC.
He is now evil.
Yep. And let me make that clear- he is now a NPC. Period. And Evil, and 100% under her control. NPC. No longer a player character. Yours, not his. A Monster.
Even if somehow he was a ‘good" vampire, he has now gained a LA+8, and now will sail thru your encounters with ease, making the other players mostly superfluous.
Perhaps you should reconsider this. Maybe she loves him so much she wants to keep him alive.
However being dominated, evil, or/and undead miles away would make him hard to play I'd imagine. Usually when people go undead their character is effectively dead.
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Your real problem is that assuming the vampire lord works like the PF vampire, spawn are under the control of the vampire who created them (unless said vampire already controls more spawn than twice their HD). Regardless of whether or not the wizard's alignment has changed, he's going to be Irina's slave. Under these circumstances it is indeed appropriate for you to play him as an NPC, at least until the rest of the party can kill Irina, freeing the wizard.
Once he's free, you have a little more leeway. The template specifies that vampires are "any evil," but Blood of the Night indicates that nonevil vampires can exist and that newly created vampires free from their parent's control have a particularly good shot at reclaiming some portion of their humanity. Under these circumstances it would be possible for the wizard to resume as a PC assuming you were OK with having a vampire in the party (party balance could be a concern). It would probably be appropriate to downgrade him to True Neutral alignment at least because of his new bloodlust (rules for which are here). He'd also likely have a problem with the paladins - some of them might be willing to trust a vampire who didn't detect as evil, but most of them would likely consider his bloodlust too much of a liability regardless of his intentions, or else simply suspect that he's magically concealing his alignment.
If you didn't want a vampire in the party (or the player didn't want to play one) then they'll need to stake him and then Resurrect him. Once free, the wizard would be able to cooperate this if he wanted to live again and trusted the party to follow through with the Resurrection.
We've played games consisting of a mostly neutral party, and one of them became undead (usually no more than a +2 CR template) and continued to run the game where PCs are PCs and not NPCs. It probably wouldn't work if the party was good, or if the undead template was greater than CR+2. The campaign went fine though it was a challenge, and the undead PC was eventually rescued from his condition and returned to the living.
There is no "you automatically become an NPC because of X" in our games, but then our group doesn't ostracize other PCs just because of alignment change or becoming undead. Of course our undead PC wasn't under the control of an NPC - which makes a difference as well.
He is now a NPC.
He is now evil.
I never understood the aversion some people have to evil PCs. Instead of just yanking his character away though, you could show some creativity and find a way to balance having a vampire in the party.
In 3.5 there were class replacement levels for monsters with a really high ECL. I think that it was in Savage Species. Even if you don't have access to the book, it shouldn't be too hard to split the powers of a vampire up among 7 or 8 levels so that the newly born undead wizard can slowly grow into his powers and not be too out of whack with the rest of the party.
He is now a NPC.
He is now evil.
What I never understood was automatic alignment shifts.
"Oh look, I have just become the risen dead. Time for me to turn my back on everything I believe in."
See what I mean? Sure, I'll admit that being undead, you have an urge to feed in some form or another, but what's a more interesting roleplay experience? Push button to receive new alignment, or a long battle versus temptation?
I think its meant to be a sort of no longer themselves moment. As with everything in the game your free to run it however you want. Helps explain how npcs who turn into the various undead/monsters suddenly turn on their friends and family.
I never understood the aversion some people have to evil PCs.He is now a NPC.
He is now evil.
Me, neither.
Instead of just yanking his character away though, you could show some creativity and find a way to balance having a vampire in the party/
In 3.5 there were class replacement levels for monsters with a really high ECL. I think that it was in Savage Species. Even if you don't have access to the book, it shouldn't be too hard to split the powers of a vampire up among 7 or 8 levels so that the newly born undead wizard can slowly grow into his powers and not be too out of whack with the rest of the party.
Fallen and flawed PCs are the most fun to play.
Well for one, one of the party is a Paladin of a deity that hates undead. So, now that Player no longer gets to play his PC. So his choice is being taken away from him.
Next, the wizard/vampire no longer gets to play a wizard, since he has 8 levels of LA to work off in some way so that choice is being taken away from him. Even if a Vampire is rather powerful, you still lose 8 levels of spellcasting. And, honestly, it is almost impossible to design encounters that will challenge both the normal party and the vampire.
Sure, sometimes with a group of mature players, an “all evil’ campaign can be a fun change. But once a campaign is set up for a party of Good PC, including a Paladin, it’s just not right to force a evil PC into the mix.
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She either cares that his love for her is real or she doesn't. If she doesn't care then he will be under her control. If she does care then she can take the risk and make him a free-willed vampire.
I don't think the party can actually 'rescue' him without restoring his mortality. Resurrection or the equivalent. This will also solve any ongoing balance issues going forward.
Well for one, one of the party is a Paladin of a deity that hates undead. So, now that Player no longer gets to play his PC. So his choice is being taken away from him.
Next, the wizard/vampire no longer gets to play a wizard, since he has 8 levels of LA to work off in some way so that choice is being taken away from him. Even if a Vampire is rather powerful, you still lose 8 levels of spellcasting. And, honestly, it is almost impossible to design encounters that will challenge both the normal party and the vampire.
Sure, sometimes with a group of mature players, an “all evil’ campaign can be a fun change. But once a campaign is set up for a party of Good PC, including a Paladin, it’s just not right to force a evil PC into the mix.
I'm not even talking about an evil party. I've played a paladin that fell due to circumstance, in an otherwise good group, and the paladin falling was a roleplaying thing - he didn't want to be evil, he was just compromised by his edicts over a particular issue. The party didn't kill him because he was suddenly not lawful good anymore. The campaign for that PC was to become forgiven and back into the fold of paladins again. It took an entire level of adventuring to get back to good, but it became an amazingly fun game trying to 'unfall'.
The problem for the OP in his case is that he's using 3x vampire which is LA+8. If he opted to use Pathfinder instead it's only a CR+2 difference - using this the fallen PC doesn't have to go NPC to maintain party balance. CR+2 is much easier for the whole party. Choosing 3x vampires makes that impossible. Just use PF version, better balanced and more playable than the alternative.
I doubt she'd want to keep him as a mortal lover. Man would need to cast a Death Ward spell every time she wants some nookie. Besides, there is the whole question of "will he actually want to be mine?" that, well, considering the fights and especially that 'dying' incident, seems unfortunately unlikely if/when he's raised.
That is, of course, if she's actually got feelings of a romantic nature: where she might actually be torn, just as you are, about raising the poor guy. If it's just lust, well, the body's what matters, not the mind, right? She'll just make him a spawn who has to do every kinky thing she says.
Regardless, as a spawn, he's Evil, and an NPC. He's just a parrot with no free will of his own; a puppet for his master's views and a doll for her pleasure. In more ways than one...
As for after, regardless of the outcome, I don't see a long PC career ahead of this character. He's got a good chance of being croaked as a spawn, even when they're trying to kill his master and not him. Even if he (un)lives, he can only travel at night, never go through running water, and (the real deal-breaker) never B&E again. Combined with a nasty weakness to certain light-type spells and a encounter-unbalancing LA+8, I think this hinders the PCs more than helps, and the wizard should be relegated to an NPC role(possibly as a panic button for tough encounters: PCs are in a pickle, they can call the Count over the radio for back-up or a temporary PC replacement) if this outcome occurs. The best case scenario is, weird as it sounds, stake 'em and resurrect, if they have the mojo to do so.
Either way, these scenarios are RP-heavy, hence spoilers: Not every group like this style, so I'm listing it as an option, not a recommendation.
so, you can resurrect and undead? I thought resurrection automatically destroyed an undead and that once undead the body was unrecoverable?
Once the Wiz is freed from the will of the vampire lord, there's nothing stopping the party from just magically changing his alignment back.
Pathfinder is goody-two-shoes'centric and assumes that when dude pops fangs then he's automatically on the DM's side.
However, vampires don't necessarily have to work that way.. and it can be alot more fun if the guy in question has a chance to redeem himself. Especially if he has a high Will save. (since that helps lend credence to him staving off the "dark side" while trying to crawl back to the light).
There's nothing badwrongfun about saying the Wizard in question is a vampire but gains none of the abilities until he fails a couple will saves. (and succumbs to the desires of the Vamp. i.e. goes full blood sucker.) Time spend foodless will increase the save making it harder and harder for him to remain good. Now how high/low the save is and how much you want it adjust it daily depends in large part on how h ard or easy you wan it to be for him to get redeemed.
This, of course, assuming the PC wants to be redeemed.
I would also say that having Dude get fully turned and now an Enemy can be an *awesome* motivation for the rest of the group.
"For the Pointy Hat! CHAAAAAAAAAAARGE!"
"Fiend of Inestimable evil, for the foul deed of changing our loving friend into a BLOOD SUCKING DEMON I smite thee!"
and so on. :)
There can be some good Rp both ways, for sure.
I'd probably sit with said Wiz and talk to him. He may be highly interested in RP'ing out trying to be redeemed.
Then again, maybe not. :)
-S
I am confused where the +8 level adjustment some people have mentioned is coming from.
Level adjustment doesn't really exist in pathfinder, and the CR increase is only +2, which for a 15th-ish wizard doesn't seem like that much of a power increase, what with not being able to go into sunlight, gets damaged by positive energy, needing to be invited to enter a home, etc
The "thing" about vampires is part of their CR is that they can drain your con and turn you into a vampire, that is a PERIL, not a BOON. It's calculated into their CR as a deadly peril, not "YESSSS more Power!"
So by that definition, it has draw backs like... YOURE DEAD SUCKER!
What is now undead IS NOT your CHARACTER, but a minion of the DMs.
YOUR character is dead. This one is BASED on what WAS your character.
it's no different than being turned into a yellow musk zombie, by RAW your character is DEAD.
The BBEG vampire lord controls the player through verbal command that the PC has to follow to he letter.
Your player is not an NPC or evil unless you feel like it. I don't know what weird draconian games most of these gents are playing, but vampire is a template added onto a character. No where does it say hand over your character sheet to the DM.
Now by all means rule 0 your PC to an NPC if that is what your game demands. But by making him an NPC you are saying that their is no way for the PC to roleplay that character and that the DM has to dictate every action that the wizard would take because the player no longer understands how their character would behave.
The BBEG vampire lord controls the player through verbal command that the PC has to follow to he letter.
Your player is not an NPC or evil unless you feel like it. I don't know what weird draconian games most of these gents are playing, but vampire is a template added onto a character. No where does it say hand over your character sheet to the DM.
Now by all means rule 0 your PC to an NPC if that is what your game demands. But by making him an NPC you are saying that their is no way for the PC to roleplay that character and that the DM has to dictate every action that the wizard would take because the player no longer understands how their character would behave.
This.
If you're playing PFS, then sure the RAW rules out and you're an NPC - most likely. On the other hand, if it is a home game there are tons of RPing value in having become undead and fighting to redeem yourself. It can be great fun for the entire party. Of course, your group may not want to do this, but the assumption by many in this thread that you're automatically an evil NPC is not RAW, only a preference by your gaming group.
Play the game how you want to best have a good time, but don't curb someone elses fun with assumptions and houserules of your game. What is true in your game, in the rules, and what works best for someone else, are three different things. One concept does not fit all.
A handsome zombie...is still a handsome zombie, imo. BUT...
The template used in the OP is located HERE. A relevant snippet follows:
Create Spawn (Su): As base vampire, but vampire lords create only vampire slaves, never vampire spawn. The new vampire is enslaved to the vampire lord until its master's death, and the willpower of the vampire lord is too strong to allow it to break free of its enslavement.
So, the PC is pretty much hosed if Irina decides to press any issue from "Slap yourself continuously for two centuries my beloved" to "do away with these petty living things" whilst pointing to the wizard PC's previous allies.
The PF Vampire template is HERE. A relevant snippet follows:
AL: Any evil.
There is even a period at the end of evil. The newly risen PC vampire's alignment shifts, and he has no choice in what he does should his mistress desire...anything...of him.
IF you are trying to come at the situation from the rules? It doesn't flat out say anywhere that the player loses their character sheet. BUT it presents a really really tall role-playing order (imo). The character needs to come up with a vampire personality for their character that has some shreds of their previous personality without trying to turn themselves into Angel, Mobius, Blade or Edward (because this is a horrid thing that has been done to the PC in question). The other players are going to be the biggest obstacle since they shouldn't just white-wash over the situation because a PC is now a vampire. And whenever Irina shows up? She wears the daddy pants and your PC should put all of their effort (that they would normally reserve for conquering one of your monstrous challenges) toward following her orders (none of that, "will save or do what she asks Pete"...it's just..."kill the princess Pete"...*splut*...dead princess).
Of course, if you want to create a pastiche of the "good" or "troubled" vampire...more power to ya. It's just tricky with the rules as they are worded.
Well, this is how I handle alignment changes. I remember reading Brom Stoker's Dracula and recall how Lucy acted after she was turned into a vampire. So I don't really mind the sudden change from good to evil. However, Lucy was kind of a side character and certain not as strong (or important) as the PCs are. I'd honestly do a one-step change towards evil and gradually have them become evil. Maybe futiliy try to fight it for a bit while the curse takes over. I do play up the bloodlust, however, and I don't allow any blood to satiate it because I feel it cheapens the evil of the curse when you can just drink cow blood. It has to be fresh from a living, sapient creature (subject to my discretion). So, there is a great chance that they will turn on their friends. I don't make them NPCs immediately, but I do expect them to play up the evilness..
Well, this is how I handle alignment changes. I remember reading Brom Stoker's Dracula and recall how Lucy acted after she was turned into a vampire. So I don't really mind the sudden change from good to evil. However, Lucy was kind of a side character and certain not as strong (or important) as the PCs are. I'd honestly do a one-step change towards evil and gradually have them become evil. Maybe futiliy try to fight it for a bit while the curse takes over. I do play up the bloodlust, however, and I don't allow any blood to satiate it because I feel it cheapens the evil of the curse when you can just drink cow blood. It has to be fresh from a living, sapient creature (subject to my discretion). So, there is a great chance that they will turn on their friends. I don't make them NPCs immediately, but I do expect them to play up the evilness..
According to the "rules" in Stoker's fantasy however, there is a period of time before the vamprism sets in, and so there for isn't permanent until that point of no return has passed.
in PF that change is death, the character is dead, THEN that dead things turns into a vampire. the LIVE character is NOT turned into a vampire. so technically speaking, the immediate alignment change is easily explained, because THAT is no longer the character.
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RAW allows PC vampires if the GM is OK with handling the power elements and the RP. It's what Blood of the Night is for.
PC vampires don't necessarily have to be nonevil, especially if there isn't a PC paladin involved.
Nonevil vampires do not have to sparkle or fall in love with teenage girls.
It would be easier all around to de-vampirify the wizard in some way, and the fact that he's going to be under the direct control of the BBEG until she's killed is a major roadblock. But it's not as simple as vampire = evil = NPC.
so, you can resurrect and undead? I thought resurrection automatically destroyed an undead and that once undead the body was unrecoverable?
You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed.
Well, this is how I handle alignment changes. I remember reading Brom Stoker's Dracula and recall how Lucy acted after she was turned into a vampire. So I don't really mind the sudden change from good to evil. However, Lucy was kind of a side character and certain not as strong (or important) as the PCs are. I'd honestly do a one-step change towards evil and gradually have them become evil. Maybe futiliy try to fight it for a bit while the curse takes over. I do play up the bloodlust, however, and I don't allow any blood to satiate it because I feel it cheapens the evil of the curse when you can just drink cow blood. It has to be fresh from a living, sapient creature (subject to my discretion). So, there is a great chance that they will turn on their friends. I don't make them NPCs immediately, but I do expect them to play up the evilness..According to the "rules" in Stoker's fantasy however, there is a period of time before the vamprism sets in, and so there for isn't permanent until that point of no return has passed.
in PF that change is death, the character is dead, THEN that dead things turns into a vampire. the LIVE character is NOT turned into a vampire. so technically speaking, the immediate alignment change is easily explained, because THAT is no longer the character.
Fair point, although I even said I didn't want to make it that drastic since I feel it would be much more interesting for the group to deal with their friend, now turned vampire. There's still time for them to "cure" him, especially at level 15.
whats the "drawback" to aPc being turned into a vampire?
again this is supposed to be a 'bad' thing. "oh no! dont turn me into a vampire!"
I'd say the bloodlust and turning on your friends and on innocents is a big deal. And the weaknesses, especially since vampire weaknesses are fairly well known. Granted, these are more Roleplaying weaknesses but it's still a big deal when your really powerful friend is suddenly a ticking time bomb of vampirism. It's a lot like when I had a monk that got turned into a wererat. Sure, it actually made me more powerful, but since I was and uncontrollable wildman in hybrid form, I became a massive liability,
Actually in pathfinder I can't find much on Lycanthropy that suggest an alignment change. Being feral might be bad, but I have no idea how a wererat acts.
There are types of vampires with different weaknesses.
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The PC is now a soulless monster,
Vampires have souls in PF. It's the whole reason a lot of folks seek to destroy undead, so that their souls are freed to continue on to their proper destination.
OP, like Weirdo pointed out, you may want to consider checking out Blood of the Night. It has some advice and optional rules on how to handle(and even to apoint curb the power of)* vampiric PCs.
Logistically, it can easily be more of a hassle than it's worth. But if it's meant to be a short term thing (like say, if he's searching for a cure), you could get something special out of it. It's something to be careful with though.
Actually in pathfinder I can't find much on Lycanthropy that suggest an alignment change. Being feral might be bad, but I have no idea how a wererat acts.
There are types of vampires with different weaknesses.
Yeah, there is no alignment change. But, you do lose control when you are forced into hybrid form.
I'd say the bloodlust and turning on your friends and on innocents is a big deal. And the weaknesses, especially since vampire weaknesses are fairly well known. Granted, these are more Roleplaying weaknesses but it's still a big deal when your really powerful friend is suddenly a ticking time bomb of vampirism. It's a lot like when I had a monk that got turned into a wererat. Sure, it actually made me more powerful, but since I was and uncontrollable wildman in hybrid form, I became a massive liability,
turning on friends and innocents...oh you mean being EVIL? I thought they were all discussing you didnt HAVE to be evil? hmmmm imagine that, evil vampires...
What part of evil makes you an NPC?
The lack of control over their actions makes them a NPC
This.
Although, once the wizard transforms the other PCs into his Vampire Spawn (also indirectly under the control of the vampire lord/lady), the whole party can experience the thrills and chills and hijinks of staying up late and poking holes in co-eds.
You know, I heard there is a game out there in which players play actual vampires...
What I'm suggesting is perhaps...(now this is crazy)...you put the character sheets aside for a few evenings, and play Pathfinder as a drama.
Imagine the other players coming to their friend's rescue...dealing with the minions of the vampire lord and struggling to discover her secrets while helping the wizard struggle against his domination and compulsion to do evil...
This could be an opportunity for a new dimension to your game, but it requires stepping away from Encounter tables and "but the party" mentality.
I'd say the bloodlust and turning on your friends and on innocents is a big deal. And the weaknesses, especially since vampire weaknesses are fairly well known. Granted, these are more Roleplaying weaknesses but it's still a big deal when your really powerful friend is suddenly a ticking time bomb of vampirism. It's a lot like when I had a monk that got turned into a wererat. Sure, it actually made me more powerful, but since I was and uncontrollable wildman in hybrid form, I became a massive liability,turning on friends and innocents...oh you mean being EVIL? I thought they were all discussing you didnt HAVE to be evil? hmmmm imagine that, evil vampires...
Oh gee, you don't actually have to start as evil to slowly lose control and attack one of your friends, and finally lose yourself and become evil because of that fall. There's still that intermediary time where you're trying to fight it. Who would of thought that alignment was more complicated than that? Clearly not you.
So long as he is controlled by the DM, he is controlled by the DM. An NPC. The template states the alignment changes to evil, but you're the DM. Those things aren't set in stone.