So a concept that i have toying around with is a fighter that doesn't wear armor. Using feats and dex to increase AC. 25 point build and no magic items to increase AC. if magic weapons weren't mandatory after a while i wouldn't even use a magic weapon. a character like this would be tough to run due tothe dangers he faces but how would you guys build it? Combat expertise and dodge being the obvious first feats.
Dip into Monk can help, as can Magus (Kensai). Duelist works too, I'd use a +1 agile Boarding Axe just to be different.
EDIT:Monk/Fighter/Duelist is also a great lead in for the Crane Style Feats, which can flat out negate attacks, which is better than AC in my book.
Are you opposed to Shields?
i thought about it but the concept i was going for didn't really fit. So no shields.
But i have built it using a straight fighter with no variant or prestige classes. I just want to know if there are better ways to do it. I'm sure there are i'm just kinda ignorant.
I got up to a 23 AC at level 20 with a 22 Dex. I'm also convinced that at a certain point AC becomes irrelevent.
Tiefling (Variant 44, Unnatural Short)
Monk 1/Magus (Kensai) 3/Fighter (Weapon Master) 4/Duelist 10
size: SMALL
25 point buy
STR 7
DEX 18 (20) (8, 12) TOTAL: 22
CON 14
INT 13 (15) (4) TOTAL: 16
WIS 15 (16) TOTAL: 16
CHA 5
AC= 10 +1(small) +1(Dodge) +6(DEX) +3(WIS) +3(INT) +3(INT) +5(Combat Expertise)= 32 AC
Combat Expertise, Dodge
So 32 AC without trying, no magic items, etc. at level 18.
nice.
AC= 10 +1(small) +1(Dodge) +6(DEX) +3(WIS) +3(INT) +3(INT) +5(Combat Expertise)= 32 AC
Isn't he Kensai and the Duelist Int -> AC the same? I don't think they stack, so +3 to AC from intelligence is max.
Isn't he Kensai and the Duelist Int -> AC the same? I don't think they stack, so +3 to AC from intelligence is max.
AC= 10 +1(small) +1(Dodge) +6(DEX) +3(WIS) +3(INT) +3(INT) +5(Combat Expertise)= 32 AC
Perhaps, like i said I wasn't trying overly hard.
In any case, you can also get CHA to AC via some Oracle shenanigans, I believe there is a trait that adds +1 to AC when using Combat Expertise... with the levels of Magus I am sure you can lay on Mage Armor and Shield for an additional +4, respectively.
So, assuming you are right, Kensai and Duelist don't stack...
Small Tiefling
Sorcerer (Sage) 1/Monk 1/Gunslinger 3/Rogue (Scout) 11/Duelist 3/Assassin 1
STR 7
DEX 18 (20) (8, 12) TOTAL: 22
CON 14
INT 13 (15) (4) TOTAL: 16
WIS 15 (16) TOTAL: 16
CHA 5
AC: 10 +1(small) +1(Dodge) +6(DEX) +3(INT) +3(WIS) +5(Combat Expertise) +4(Mage Armor spell) +4(Shield spell) +7 (Offensive Defense Rogue Talent)
Total: 44 AC
Feats:
Dodge
Combat Expertise
Improved Feint
Rapid Reload
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Finesse
Mobility
Rogue Talent:
Offensive Defense
Items:
Mask of Stony Demeanor
Basically, Feint or Charge or Skirmish via the Rogue (Scout) Archetype. As long as you deal sneak attack damage, you gain that many dice as a bonus to AC. Levels of Gunslinger make that easy, just hit touch AC. if feinting, use a shocking grasp via Sorcerer.
Every round you should be able to sneak attack one way or another. Use a dagger pistol so you can shoot, while still using wielding a piercing melee weapon for the Duelist AC bonus.
Im sure others can do better though.
Combat expertise and dodge being the obvious first feats.
I got up to a 23 AC at level 20 with a 22 Dex.
If you're going a straight non defensive item using fighter, don't bother. Your AC will never be passable even with these feats, so they are just a waste. When your 20th level enemy is swinging at +40, there is no difference between AC 10 and AC 23.
Use feats to find a strength in some other area instead, or to cover for your weakness in ways that will remain relevant instead of metaphorically trying to heat a room with a candle. So, for example, perhaps Toughness and Crane Wing instead of Dodge and Expertise.
There is a feat chain that allows you to convert dodge bonuses to AC into double the same amount of DR. Stack that on a superstitious barbarian and you might have someone durable enough to operate without armour or magic. A level or two of Lore Warden might help out.
yep, its a poor concept as a practical character. Just threw something out since i felt like a minor thought experiment...
Might look into a different type of build. I have an unarmored character I'm working now, stats:
Monk 2, Fighter (Free Hand) 1
STR:10
DEX:20
CON:10
WIS:18
INT:16
CHA:8
Feats: Dodge
Improved Initiative
Weapon Finesse
Snapping Turtle Style
Mobility
His standing armor class as level 3 is 21, acrobatics with three ranks make +3 fighting defensively, +6 total defense. Going to take him up to Duelist, which will also add his INT to his AC. Free Hand fighter gains +1 bonus at level 3. Add in Combat Expertise, and the gammut of AC raising magical trinkets like Monk's Robe, Defending weapons, ring of pro., bracer's of armor, and DEX/WIS enhancing items, it can be done. I won't be running my character as the party's main tank (level 3, 21 AC is respectable, but will lag eventually) but more as a mobility character, setting up for flanking and cutting off escape routes. Moblity and Duelist Improved Mobility gives me +8 AC on AoO. Step Up, Following Step and Step Up and Strike allow me to move when its not my turn, Spring attack is obvious, plus full Vital Strike path for x4 damage on Spring attacks.
7 levels fighter (swordlord), swordlord (prc) 1, monk (maneuver master) 2, duelist 10
take crane style, crane wing, deflect arrows, dodge
you will deflect the first hit (melee and missile)
parry an attack and respond with a riposte
fight defensively standard action, +4 AC, -2 to hit
fight defensively full round action, +8 AC, -0 to hit
dueling mastery, +2 shield
dexterity +7
intelligence +3
wisdom +2
dodge +1
dodge duelist +3
basic tiefling
str 10
dex 24
con 14
int 16
wis 14
cha 5
sure there are more ways, but this comes down to ac 36 for a normal tiefling, not bad considering deflect and parry
The concept i was going for was a superstitious(no magic) swordsman who relied on skill alone. I understand that at later lvls AC is irrelevant. yes you may have a 42 AC but BBEG has a +43 to hit. It's the minions that AC matters against. I was kinda going for a mobility fighter that cut people off and set up flanks. Kinda of like what Kyaaadaa suggested. High mobility, no magic, seven kinds of nasty at high levels.
Might look into a different type of build. I have an unarmored character I'm working now, stats:
Monk 2, Fighter (Free Hand) 1
STR:10
DEX:20
CON:10
WIS:18
INT:16
CHA:8Feats: Dodge
Improved Initiative
Weapon Finesse
Snapping Turtle Style
MobilityHis standing armor class as level 3 is 21, acrobatics with three ranks make +3 fighting defensively, +6 total defense. Going to take him up to Duelist, which will also add his INT to his AC. Free Hand fighter gains +1 bonus at level 3. Add in Combat Expertise, and the gammut of AC raising magical trinkets like Monk's Robe, Defending weapons, ring of pro., bracer's of armor, and DEX/WIS enhancing items, it can be done. I won't be running my character as the party's main tank (level 3, 21 AC is respectable, but will lag eventually) but more as a mobility character, setting up for flanking and cutting off escape routes. Moblity and Duelist Improved Mobility gives me +8 AC on AoO. Step Up, Following Step and Step Up and Strike allow me to move when its not my turn, Spring attack is obvious, plus full Vital Strike path for x4 damage on Spring attacks.
I thought of this a while back, and posted my thoughts on a thread. Here's a copy+paste of it, with a few edits.
Let's ignore the obvious choices, like pure Monk or using an inordinate amount of buff spells.
Take Goblin, for +4 dex and small size giving you +3 to AC right off. Take a base 17 dex and drop a point into it at level 4. take a 12 con, an 12 int, an 10 wis, and a 7 cha (-2 from goblin bringing it down to a 5).
Your stats should look like this with a 20 point buy in: (Adjust for 25 point as you see fit. Probably put more into Con, Str, or Cha)
STR 15 -2
DEX 17+4
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 10
CHA 7-2
Level 1 and 2 you take Master of Many Styles, grabbing Crane Stance and Crane Wing with your bonus feats. Take Weapon Finesse at level 1 for good + to hit with your fists, and for use later. This will also net you evasion, which will be great in conjunction with your high dex for shrugging off AoE damage.
Third level you need to have 3 ranks in acrobatics, to increase your AC while fighting defensively. You also take a fighter level at level 3, picking up Exotic Weapon Prof with the Elven Curved Blade and Power Attack (needed for a later feat).
Level 4 and 5 are alchemist for two reasons. The first is the Mutagen, which will give you +4 dex, and +2 natural armor (at the price of -2 wisdom sadly), and the second is the vestigial limb discovery. This discovery will be needed to use Crane Wing while still using a two handed weapon. At level 5 you will also gain access to shield of swing, bumping your AC up another 4.
Finally, level 6 and onward is levels of Urban Barbarian + Invulnerable Rager. Due to a shift in alignment, you will lose the ability to take monk levels, but you retain class abilities so who cares. Now you can rage for another +4 dex, and later +6.
Now for the math.
Level 6 (2 MoMS, 1 Fighter, 2 Alchemist, X Urban Barbarian / Invulnerable Rager)
10 + 6 (dex) + 2 (dex muta) + 2 (natural armor muta) + 4 (fighting defensively) + 2 (dex rage) + 4 (shield of swings) + 1 (small size)
=
31 AC + the ability to deflect one melee attack every round, and reflex save for full at level 6. Nearly all of your AC is dex or dodge, so gunslingers, incorporeal creatures, and ray mages hate you with a passion.
If you really wanted to troll your DM, a Reduce Person extract would give you another +2 Dex and +1 AC, raising your AC to 33. Sadly, you'd be tiny sized at that point and unable to use Power Attack, making you inconsequential to the enemy and useless to your party. Not recommended.
No magic items. No armor. Deal with it.
Sadly, your DPS is looking pretty pathetic at 1d8+1, +6 from power attack, but divided by 2 from shield of swings. Also, being a small sized goblin with ungodly AC will probably end with you being ignored by every enemy.
*Build for later levels
Your Con at this point is lacking, as you dumped everything into Dex. Favored class does little to make up for this, as you spec into 4 classes withing 6 levels. Take toughness if you are desperate for more HP. Dodge works for more AC, but it's like pouring a cup of water into an ocean: its not really doing much. Crane Riposte and Combat Reflexes make for a good combination. Improved Critical, Critical Focus, and other Critical feats can pad out the DPS you lack once you get to high levels.
Taking another two levels in fighter (assuming you are using the Weapon Master archetype) will net you another feat and Weapon Training with your ECB. If you continue on the route of specing Barbarian, work towards the Dragon Totem rage powers. These will net you an incredible amount of DR /- once you get the Dragon Resilience (check with your DM, it is rather ambiguously worded) which stacks with your DR /- From Invulnerable Rager archetype. The Guarded Stance rage power will also give a small bump to your AC, but it only lasts as long as your Con Mod so it's hardly worth it
Look to pick up an Agile Elven Curved Blade as soon as you can to help with your damage. Belt of dex is an obvious pick up, though a belt of con can help pad out your low HP. A headband of Wis is a luxury (you get your wis to AC thanks to those monk levels and it provides you will +1 to will saves), but the bonus is removed when you use a Dex mutagen so it is not needed. Other magical armor items (rings, bracers, etc) are cherries on top of the cake.
Note. You can do this with a Human, using the extra feat to pick up dodge at level 1 to make up for not being small size. The buy in looks like this.
20 Point Buy (Adjust for 25 PBI: Str to 16, or Con to 14 and Cha to 10)
STR 14
DEX 17 +2
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 8
The difference is minimal, 30 AC by level 6. It gives you slightly better DPS (1d10+3, +6 from Power Attack) and nicer looking stats. This is what I would go with if you're not a stickler for Min-Maxing.
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i would say sohei/weapon master fighter would be an amazing base for this character. by going 10/10 monk/fighter you would net a ton of feats, a ton of passive ac, and focusing on mobility you could go with a great sword/composite long bow and flurry like a champ with both weapons.
i would use these stats:
16 (10)
16 (10)
12 (2)
10 (0)
14 and +2 racial (human most likely)(5)
8 (-2)
WM fighter 3/monk8/fighter 9 (or 7 and 2 more monk)
then i would take point blank, precise, rapid shot, many shot, clustered shots, power attack, dodge mobility, spring attack, vital strike many shot, improved vital strike
i mean with 0 magic you could be a very functional character using more attacks to try to net more damage. the one issue is that you will get wrecked by dr, thats why you have clustered shots and spring attack or vital strike which ever you think is more valuable in that moment.
i would say sohei/weapon master fighter would be an amazing base for this character. by going 10/10 monk/fighter you would net a ton of feats, a ton of passive ac, and focusing on mobility you could go with a great sword/composite long bow and flurry like a champ with both weapons.
i would use these stats:
16 (10)
16 (10)
12 (2)
10 (0)
14 and +2 racial (human most likely)(5)
8 (-2)
WM fighter 3/monk8/fighter 9 (or 7 and 2 more monk)
then i would take point blank, precise, rapid shot, many shot, clustered shots, power attack, dodge mobility, spring attack, vital strike many shot, improved vital strikei mean with 0 magic you could be a very functional character using more attacks to try to net more damage. the one issue is that you will get wrecked by dr, thats why you have clustered shots and spring attack or vital strike which ever you think is more valuable in that moment.
Have somewhat shifted focus a bit. The point was to make a decent AC while still wearing no armor. A character like this isn't built to be the DD, they're built to be the target slayer, going after mages or clerics around the front lines, or shifting the battlefield to allow the rogue(s) to flank and get sneak attacks.
If you splash D&D 3.5, Magic of Incarnum has a soulmeld that grants +2 natural armor +1 for each essentia you pump into it, and can pick it up for a feat.