How to de-suck-ify Daze Monster


Homebrew and House Rules


I was recently reading a post where Daze Monster was justifiably being dumped on by everyone. I think the consensus is pretty much unanimous that the spell as it stands sucks donkey nads, to be indelicate about it. So, how do we fix it?

Spell as it stands is level two and dazes a creature for one round, done. OK, that's pretty underpowered. What about adding duration to it? We could extend the dazing effect to 1 round/two levels. Or having the daze effect stay one round duration, but have the spell itself last one round per level and the caster can use the effect every round as a move or standard action.

Do these modifications help to make this a spell worth having in a repertoire? If not, how would YOU fix it? Let's get some discussion happening and fix the problem, shall we?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

I think one of the big issues is the 6 HD limit. You get access to the spell at level 3 and by level 5 or so many of the creatures you'd want to use it on are already immune.

Daze is a strong status ailment (stronger than nauseated, weaker than stunned) so making it last multiple rounds risks making the spell an "I win" button when it worked. Perhaps if you gave a new save each round a la hold person. If it lasted multiple rounds I'd place the restriction on it that you can't target the same creature twice.

Perhaps relaxing the HD limit to "caster level +3" would help? It would make it less likely to 1-shot "boss" encounters but retain long-term usefulness against normal fights as the caster levels.


Removing the HD limit would be very helpful, as that is the largest issue. I like ryric's idea of caster level + 3 as the HD limit. That would be the best solution.

That wouldn't do too much for the spells power either, as the save DC would still be 12 + the caster's ability modifier, but it would still be viable at higher levels.

If you think the spell is still underpowered (as it is still a save-or-die spell), then perhaps add something like:

Daze Monster
School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level bard 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a pinch of wool or similar substance)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one living creature of 3 + caster level HD or less
Duration 1 round (see text)
Saving Throw Will partial; Spell Resistance yes

This spell clouds the mind of a living creature with Hit Dice no greater than your caster level + 3, dazing the subject for 1 round. A creature that successfully saves against this spell is not dazed, but instead becomes staggered for 1 round.

A dazed subject is not stunned, so attackers get no special advantage against it. After a creature has been dazed by this spell, it becomes staggered for 1 round per three caster levels, but is otherwise immune to the effects of this spell for 1 minute.

Edit: Meant for the extra condition to be staggered, instead of sickened.


But now you are just adding a status (sickened) that otherwise doesn't fit into the flavor of the spell. How about the spell having a duration during which any standard action that requires focus (attacking, casting, etc) requires a fortitude save from the target or it's dazed that round. Lasts 1 round per level, each save gets a +2 bonus from the round before. If target spends a full round action to "shake it off" then they get a save to negate the effect at +5 bonus.


Meant for the condition to be staggered, not sickened. Staggered is a lesser form of dazed, in a sense.

JustKhaos, what you purpose is really no different, as you are suggesting extra saves and extra complications with the cumulative +2 bonus from round to round, and the confusing rules of standard and full-round actions. In addition, you are adding two different saves, Will to negate, and Fortitude to end.

To be honest, the most simple fix for Daze Monster is just to remove the HD limit, and have it scale.


I suppose I did throw in a little too much there. But even minus the HD limit I feel like it's overpriced at 2nd lvl. I'd like it more if it staggered on a failed save for 1 round. That way you get something for your higher spell slot.


So you're saying staggered for 1 round on top of being dazed for 1 round, or in place of being dazed? Or are you saying that the spell should stagger a creature on a failed save, if the creature has more than 6 HD?

The Exchange

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I hate the HD change, bump it up 1 or two but don't scale it.

On a successful save the target is staggered instead, unless he passes another save at the same DC.

Edit: a lvl2 spell that auto staggers is broken.


GeneticDrift wrote:
I hate the HD change, bump it up 1 or two but don't scale it.

Why? What would be so bad with it scaling? The DC wouldn't make it terribly useful at highest levels, unless the creature was already massively de-buffed or has horrendous saves. Don't just say no, give us a reason.

GeneticDrift wrote:

On a successful save the target is staggered instead, unless he passes another save at the same DC.

Edit: a lvl2 spell that auto staggers is broken.

Perhaps, although there are other spells at this level that have limiting effects with no save. Web, comes to mind. There's a save vs. the grappled condition, but the terrain modifier has no safe component, is potentially just as limiting as staggered and is AOE to boot. So I wouldn't say a 1 round auto-stagger is that bad. What makes you cry broken?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Frigid Touch, also a level 2 spell, deals damage and auto-staggers. I don't see why no damage and auto-stagger should be out of the question.

And thank you Joex, just saying "no" or throwing hate doesn't add anything to the conversation.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

I'm not familiar with frigid touch offhand, but I assume it requires a touch attack and does not stagger on a miss? That means it does not auto-stagger because there is a (possibly small) chance it won't happen.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
ryric wrote:
I'm not familiar with frigid touch offhand, but I assume it requires a touch attack and does not stagger on a miss? That means it does not auto-stagger because there is a (possibly small) chance it won't happen.

Yes, you are correct, my apologies. I meant that the target is staggered on a hit, in addition to taking damage, without a saving throw. On a critical hit with frigid touch, the target is staggered for 1 minute. However, touch attacks are often more effective than save-spells, as touch AC is usually quite low (and touch attacks scale with BAB), while the DC for daze monster would always be at least 12, and an enemy's Will save scales.

Daze monster couldn't crit, of course, but compared to being staggered for 1 minute, staggered for 1 round is hardly game breaking.

I don't know. I play a magus that uses frigid touch quite often, and having the enemy staggered for 1 round is beneficial for sure, but not always combat altering. Sometimes it is barely noticeable, as the enemy usually still makes its one attack or charges, and still deals damage. Only when the enemy is staggered for that 1 minute, do things sway heavily in the PCs favor.

Not to mention how precious 2nd level spells are. For my magus, using frigid touch is a huge decision, even at 8th level, as I don't have that many 2nd level spells, and I still need to be concerned about my defenses. It isn't like I am using frigid touch each round, keeping the enemy stagger-locked. The same would be true for daze monster. You could spam it each round, sure, but at a huge cost.


Daze Monster
School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level bard 2, sorcerer/wizard 2

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S, M (a pinch of wool or similar substance)

Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

Target one living creature of 3 + caster level HD or less

Duration 1d6+1 rounds

Saving Throw Will negates (see text); Spell Resistance yes

This spell clouds the mind of a living creature with up to your caster level +3 Hit Dice so that it takes no actions. A dazed subject is not stunned, so attackers get no special advantage against it. After a creature has been dazed by this spell, it may attempt at another will save at the end of each round to end the effects of this spell.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Homebrew and House Rules / How to de-suck-ify Daze Monster All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Homebrew and House Rules