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It makes monks a very strong one level dip for any wisdom based caster, like clerics or inquisitor.
Yes, but there are ways to have a high AC without armor. Items and spells for instance.
Yes, but there are ways to have a high AC without armor. Items and spells for instance.
Along with, perhaps... Wisdom thanks to a monk dip? ;P
I think. It should 1/3 the monk level If you multi class or like he duelist int ability
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So now Wisdom covers:
-AC
-Damage
-Attack Rolls
-Will Saves
-Save DCs (quingong monk)
Wisdom now covers almsot everything important for the class, aside from hitpoints. This is too significant.
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Hmm, I'd had a fun idea to change the monk around.
Give each monk a domain or two (maybe require a feat for it). Let them have the domain powers, using their monk level as cleric level.
Maybe even let them use the domain bonus spells once per day! Might end up with some "Kamehameha" type shenanigans.
Compare to Wizard and come back Big Lemon ;)
Wizard Intelligence doesn't add to melee/ranged attack or damage rolls. It doesn't add to saving throws. It doesn't add to Armor Class.
If Int doesn't need to do any of the things the proposed change does, then the comparison makes no sense.
Alright, I'll compare them:
A 1st level wizard with an Int of 18 and 10 in every other stat:
BENEFITS
-DC 15 on the saving throws of his 1st level spells
-6 total skill points
-1 additional 1st level spell per-day (total of 5 if he has a bonded item and school)
-Able to use school powers a total of 7 times per day
(Note that damage on spell does not increase)
UNAFFECTED
-AC of 10
-HP of 6
-+0 to attack and damage on melee/ranged attacks
A 1st level monk with 18 wis and 10 in every other stat:
-+6 Will Save
-+4 damage on all melee attacks
-+4 damage on all ranged attacks
-+4 to CMB
-14 AC
-Increased Carrying capacity
-(if quingong monk) DC 14 ki-powers
AT LATER LEVELS
-Increased Ki pool size
UNAFFECTED
-4 skill points
-8 hp
In summation: Wisdom affects 7 areas for the monk, 6 of which have no limit on uses per day. By constrast, high Int for a wizard affects 4 areas for the wizard, 1 of which has a no limit on uses per day.
If you cannot see the difference there then you are blind.
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The wizard is only SAD if you assume he is in a vacuum where it is impossible for him to ever get hit or harmed by anything.
The problem gets even worse at later levels when a single magic item that bumps Wis adds to attack, damage, AC, saves, CMB, and carry capacity.
In other words, a Monk with 18 Wisdom equates to any other class with 18 Wisdom, Dexterity, and Strength, since Wisdom now does almost everything those stats do.
*deep breath*
I'm not sure that helps, kyrt-ryder. Maybe if it had one or two other prerequisites.
Well, compare it to other feats you can get a first level. Yes, you would need to have that first level be monk, but it's a feat that gives a huge benefit. Just like when it was a class feature.
To keep it from being nearly as useful for those trying to pick it up as a dip, maybe restrict it to only affecting monk weapons, or those weapons that are flurry-able, or something along those lines.
I think having it as a feat makes sense, and feats usually affect to-hit -or- damage, not both. So, one for the to-hit, and another improving damage. Improving carrying capacity seems far-fetched. I can see intuiting exactly how and where to strike a creature to most effectively take it down, but in general monks are stereotyped as traveling light, and it's difficult to nerve-punch a backpack. :)
This is just an idea that popped into my head today while doing yardwork and I thought I'd throw it out to the masses for feedback. (This is intended to be a level 1 Monk ability, but I could possibly see it as a feat a Monk could take.)
Inner Focus: a monk who is unarmored uses his Wisdom instead of Strength for the purpose of melee Attacks (including CMB), melee Bonus Damage, and Ranged Bonus Damage. Furthermore, as long as he remains unarmored and does not exceed his modified light load, add the Monk's Wisdom Modifier to his Strength Score for purposes of carrying capacity.
I like the idea, but I think you are going to far, and the monk looks too good for a one-level dip.
As Big Lemon rightly points out, this makes Wisdom responsible for too much.
Myself, I say make Wisdom the stat for hitting (also restricted to monk weapons and unarmed strikes), but not damage. That takes the heavy emphasis off strength, but keeps strength useful. It reduces MAD and makes the stat for your special abilities your prime stat, not secondary. You can balance out your other stats much more evenly now that you only need one very high stat, rather than two. It's not so hot for damage output, but that stunning fist has better odds of success now.
Is this dipable? Sure. But it's no more than the cleric can already get with a feat, which means he's much less likely to bother.
If the monk wants to up his damage later, he can get the guided property on his amulet of mighty fists, just like the cleric can get a guided weapon.
Compare to the feat Dervish Dance
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse, Perform (dance) 2 ranks, proficient with scimitar.
Benefit: When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
This single feat requires at least 2nd level (two ranks in dance) and 1 prerequisite feat, and it only adds Dex to damage and does it instead of strength (and allows the scimitar to be considered a piercing weapon or other feats, but that's not really big). It also limits you to only using this single weapon; you can't gain this benefit while using TWF.
In summation: Wisdom affects 7 areas for the monk, 6 of which have no limit on uses per day. By constrast, high Int for a wizard affects 4 areas for the wizard, 1 of which has a no limit on uses per day.
If you cannot see the difference there then you are blind.
The difference you are ignoring is that a single wizard spell can end many encounters on its own, and no single monk action ever will.
So the Monk's Wisdom modifier applies to more things, but none of them are even remotely as significant as a wizard's spells per day and spell DCs.
Not that I am advocating for this approach, though--I don't really care for it. I'd far rather let monks use Strength or Con for AC instead of Dex or make Con their key stat instead of Wisdom than changing the stat they use to attack.
Real martial artists are strong. Very strong. And crazy tough--the kind of tough you have to punch and kick rocks and trees for a living to be.
People like to pretend it's about small guys beating larger guys with technique, but that only happens when there's a humongous skill gap. In real hand to hand fighting, assuming similar skill, the bigger, stronger guy always wins. This is why every kind of professional (or amateur for that matter) fighting works in weight classes. Strength wins, assuming technique is close.
In summation: Wisdom affects 7 areas for the monk, 6 of which have no limit on uses per day. By constrast, high Int for a wizard affects 4 areas for the wizard, 1 of which has a no limit on uses per day.
If you cannot see the difference there then you are blind.
I'd far rather let monks use Strength or Con for AC instead of Dex or make Con their key stat instead of Wisdom than changing the stat they use to attack.
Real martial artists are strong. Very strong. And crazy tough--the kind of tough you have to punch and kick rocks and trees for a living to be.
People like to pretend it's about small guys beating larger guys with technique, but that only happens when there's a humongous skill gap. In real hand to hand fighting, assuming similar skill, the bigger, stronger guy always wins. This is why every kind of professional (or amateur for that matter) fighting works in weight classes. Strength wins, assuming technique is close.
by any chance did you catch this then?
In summation: Wisdom affects 7 areas for the monk, 6 of which have no limit on uses per day. By constrast, high Int for a wizard affects 4 areas for the wizard, 1 of which has a no limit on uses per day.
If you cannot see the difference there then you are blind.
The difference you are ignoring is that a single wizard spell can end many encounters on its own, and no single monk action ever will.
So the Monk's Wisdom modifier applies to more things, but none of them are even remotely as significant as a wizard's spells per day and spell DCs.
Not that I am advocating for this approach, though--I don't really care for it. I'd far rather let monks use Strength or Con for AC instead of Dex or make Con their key stat instead of Wisdom than changing the stat they use to attack.
Real martial artists are strong. Very strong. And crazy tough--the kind of tough you have to punch and kick rocks and trees for a living to be.
People like to pretend it's about small guys beating larger guys with technique, but that only happens when there's a humongous skill gap. In real hand to hand fighting, assuming similar skill, the bigger, stronger guy always wins. This is why every kind of professional (or amateur for that matter) fighting works in weight classes. Strength wins, assuming technique is close.
As per the strength-versus-technique, we are not talking purely realworld martial artists here. We're talking guys with super-naturally keen sense. It's supposed to be fantastical.
Now, I can see the potential for a Hard Stylist/Soft Stylist option for monks at first level that lets them add Con or Wis to AC and perhaps some other alternate abilities as they level.
Compare to the feat Dervish Dance
This single feat requires at least 2nd level (two ranks in dance) and 1 prerequisite feat, and it only adds Dex to damage and does it instead of strength (and allows the scimitar to be considered a piercing weapon or other feats, but that's not really big). It also limits you to only using this single weapon; you can't gain this benefit while using TWF.Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse, Perform (dance) 2 ranks, proficient with scimitar.
Benefit: When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
While I understand the reason for it, I can't agree with Paizo's terror of embracing concepts like the dextrous warrior.
A feat that changes damage from Strength to Dex is roughly balanced as a feat without all the baggage they put on it. Sure it's a decent feat for a duelist who gets screwed out of the option to two-hand or two-weapon, but for anyone else I find Dervish Dance an exercise in futility. No off-hand weapon, no two-hand bonuses, no shield/buckler.
That being said, I never felt that Weapon Finesse should exist as a feat at all. If one is more dextrous than strong, then learning to use weapons suitable for the style based on dex would be a natural part of learning to use the weapon. Only an idiot would sabotage their development in the use of a weapon by learning to use it in a way not suited to their talents if there was a way that is suited to it.
So... if you want to compare this feat to a Dex to Damage feat, compare it to the one I would use in my campaign, wherein Weapon Finesse is baked...
I actually don't use Weapon Finesse as a feat either, but regardless, your is still to good.
You feat still turns Wisdom fully into Strength (it does literally everything strength is needed for) at level 1 at the cost of a single feat, while this adds Dex to just damage with one weapon at a minimum of level 2. Making it into a feat with no prerequisites other than 1 monk level makes it into the only feat a monk should ever take at 1st level because it is vastly better than any other choice.
As per the strength-versus-technique, we are not talking purely realworld martial artists here. We're talking guys with super-naturally keen sense. It's supposed to be fantastical.
Actually, we're talking about guys whose martial arts rely on having keen senses for some reason.
Nothing about being a monk makes your senses keen--having a high Wisdom does that. Monk just gives more benefits for them being keen--which is weird, thematically, when you really think about it.
The more I consider this, the more I like Toaster's idea of the monk learning Wisdom and getting a level-based bonus to Wisdom related stuff, rather than just being wise by default and learning how to make being Wise more useful.
That non-choice is in and of itself a huge problem. If something that is that more powerful than every other option that it becomes an auto-choice as every other option is strictly worse 100% of the time, that's the definition of something being overpowered.
If you don't think that makes something too powerful... how DO you define when something is too strong?
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(interjects)
my opinion is that some priority arrangement of ST, DX, and WIS each ought to offer a different but viable build, all with a degree of battlefield control.
ST - more emphasis on power strikes
DX - more emphasis on mobility and evasion
WIS - more emphasis on discipline and mysticism
that said, i am coming around on the idea of adding WIS to hit, mostly because of the eventual gravity of Dabbler's various arguments in so many monk threads, yet i would stand vehemently against adding WIS to damage, or stacking it on top of ST to hit.
...
3 builds:
the WISDOM monk:
1) excels with ki discipline
2) excels at Perception and Sense Motive, and Will save
3) sees a boost to his AC from his learned awareness
4) ought to be able to exercise control over the battlefield through technique*
the STRENGTH monk:
1) excels at quickly subduing foes
2) excels at Climb and Swim, and Carrying Capacity
3) trades off defense (AC) for offense (damage)
4) ought to be able to exercise control over the battlefield through technique*
the DEXTERITY monk:
1) excels if built around Ranged Weapons (Zen Archer)
2) excels at Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Stealth, and Reflex with Evasion
3) sees a decent AC, modified further by his second choice stat
4) ought to be able to exercise control over battlefield through technique**
...
and so, my add-on tack-fix proposals to address these concerns:
Unarmed Strike:
A monk may substitute his WIS for his ST on attack rolls.
Stunning Fist:
A monk may substitute his ST for his WIS on stun DCs.
Maneuver Training:
A monk gains the Agile Maneuvers feat, but instead of substituting his DX in for his ST, he adds both ability score modifiers to his CMB rolls. Finally, a monk never provokes an attack of opportunity when attempting a combat maneuver.
Wholeness of Body:
A monk may empty his ki pool to fill his HP pool as a swift action.
While I understand the reason for it, I can't agree with Paizo's terror of embracing concepts like the dextrous warrior.
A feat that changes damage from Strength to Dex is roughly balanced as a feat without all the baggage they put on it. Sure it's a decent feat for a duelist who gets screwed out of the option to two-hand or two-weapon, but for anyone else I find Dervish Dance an exercise in futility. No off-hand weapon, no two-hand bonuses, no shield/buckler.
The dex-to-damage option is provided for by the agile weapon property. A decent duelist will out hit and out damage a monk on any day of the week, too.
Maneuver Training looks good, I'm going to slide that into a npc for a playtest this Saturday.
See, I agree the feat is 'over-powered' in the context of "Should a Monk take this, or should it take something else?" (by design, in that it seemed better to make it into a feat tax than to shove it into the class for free) but not in the context of "Should I play a Monk with this feat or should I play a Barbarian or Ranger or Paladin or Bard with some other feat?"
If it's strictly better than every other option 100% of the time it's too strong and need to be either toned down or restricted with prerequisites. If you truly don't care about this then I'm out of this thread. There's really nothing more for me to say.
My opinion...WAY to good for dipping at level one.
Suggested changes...
-Change to level 3, possibly replacing still mind or maneuver training.
-Limit it to monk weapons and unarmed strikes. (altered by archetype)
-Remove the carrying capacity provision, leav SOME reason not to buy down to a 7 str.
Makes people less likely to just dip. As you have it now a wild-shaped druid would have to be crazy not to want it. They already love the wis to armor boost at lv 1 because of their wild shape taking away their armor but now they can dump str completely and use their 20 wisdom to tear apart foes with pounce, claw, claw, bite, rake. Also, for my own clarification, does this get multiplied by 1.5 for 2-handed?
I'm going to agree with Rapthorn2ndform and implement his suggestions.
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Small Change with Big Impact:
Bonus Feats:
add Weapon Finesse and Weapon Zen to the list of bonus feats.
Weapon Zen:
You are trained in using your insight in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength.
Benefit: With an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon, you may use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield or wear armor, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: Natural weapons are considered unarmed strikes.
Rainzax, I really liked what you described above about the different types of monks.
Having played DDO in the past I remember they had a system where the monk learned a number of stances. Each stance focused on a particular stat, and the monk would build their character around using that stat as the important one. The stances were tied to elements, Fire was STR, Earth was CON, Wind was DEX, and Water was WIS.
Now I'm not saying we add these stances, but what if, upon creation, the monk could chose a "style" or "monastic order" he trained with/learned the teachings of and practiced. While each "Order" would still teach the monk regular monastic stuff (Some base monk abilities would remain the same) the different orders could tailor the abilities the monk gets as he progresses through the class to better suit a monk focusing on particular combat style.
Just an interesting idea that came to mind after reading your post about the kinds of monks and what they should be able to do.
@Valdenshi
Are you talking about something like Cavalier orders for Monks? Because something like that would be pretty cool, in my opinion. I'd like to see that.
Hmm, I actually know very little about Cavaliers, but after taking a quick look at what they do, yeah, definitely. Just some way of customizing the monk to be better with a particular stat and not quite as dependent on a few others. Say, being a Monk of the "Blue mountain" order or somesuch could allow the monk to use his CON mod instead of his WIS mod with the Monk AC bonus ability.
We do end up with the issue of dipping, but since the monk must be lawful this particular instance of a stat applying a benefit to something since the only other class that REALLY stacks CON and doesn't wear significant amounts of armor is the Barbarian, which can't be lawful.
Hmm...a Scarred Witch Doctor Orc stacking CON for casting and dipping in Monk for defense might be too strong though..
Hmm...a Scarred Witch Doctor Orc stacking CON for casting and dipping in Monk for defense might be too strong though..
Stronger than an Empyreal Sorcerer dipping Monk for the AC?
Losing a level of spellcasting is punishment enough, I think.
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Valdenshi, that is an interesting concept.
An idea i am having now is to create feats, like Weapon Zen, that each 'type' might like to take that'd strengthen the build, and add it to the list of bonus feats.
since i have proposed one for WIS, and there is Weapon Finesse for DX, what could be useful for ST and CON?
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Stunning Force (Combat)
You make extremely powerful nerve strikes
Prerequisites: Stunning Fist
Benefit: You may substitute your Strength bonus in for your Wisdom bonus when calculating the DC of your stunning fist attack. You may use your stunning fist ability an additional number of times per day equal to your Strength modifier.
Immovability (Combat)
You root yourself to the ground and become immovable
Prerequisites: CON 15
Benefit: You may add your CON modifier to your CMD. Any time an opponent fails a combat maneuver that would change your position or knock you prone, treat it as if you had successfully used that maneuver against them.