Determining who is right or wrong is almost never easy, anyway. But just hearing a one-sided recount of a conflict will leave you ( as one can see from many of the replies above ) needlessly biased towards one side.@Magnuskn & Bearded Ben: Oh it helps...but not that much. Especialy just via texct based communication. If you are present you can pick up on visual cues and such.
But it still not enough (for me atleast) to judge who is in the wrong or not. It does not changer my advice one bit...which is either apologize to each other and talk it out...or forget it and move on. Life is too short to chew over vomit.
That I agree with.
Heck really I don't care who is 'right' or 'wrong'. Usualy both sides are at fault to on degree or another.
You do remeber my stance on that other thread about these kinda of threads?
I must confess to it having escaped my memory. ^^
I must confess to it having escaped my memory. ^^
Don't take sides.
Give the advice to comunicate with the gmor player or your imaginary friend or whatever.
Maybe give your perception on this.
Don't take sides.
"You're not acting the way that I want you to act, so you've brought my actions upon yourself." (See also: Victim blaming)Really? "If you had told me you were intentionally ignoring me, instead of just being hard to reach like you always have been in the past, then I would have left you alone" is victim blaming?
Let's go to the video tape...
First, I'm not being very insistent you hand over the character sheet. I'm being PERSISTENT in trying to get a hold of you. By ignoring me (thanks for letting me know that's what you were doing), you set yourself up for this perceived harassment. If you've a problem with this, it's of your own doing, not mine."You're not acting the way that I want you to act, so you've brought my actions upon yourself." (See also: Victim blaming)
The very last sentence, "If you've a problem with this, it's of your own doing, not mine." The word "this" refers to actions taken by the poster to reach the player.
In essence "If you've a problem with {my actions}, its of your own doing, not mine."
1. The person acting explicitly disclaims responsibility for those actions. ("not mine")
2. The person acting explicitly places the responsibility for the actions on the person acted upon. ("your own doing")
3. The person acting suggests that if the victim feels victimized ("if you've a problem") that it is the victim's blame ("your own doing") and not the person acting's blame ("not mine").
The final sentence is quite explicitly victim blaming. The sentence just before that is also quite a doozy:
"By ignoring me, you set yourself up for this perceived harassment."
In my opinion, the most disturbing aspect is belittling the victim's perception of the victimizer's actions ("perceived harassment").
Or, for those who understand better with sarcasm:
{sarcasm on}How dare the victim "ignore" this stalwart gentleman? Clearly then, she had all this coming. Never seen a more obvious case of setting herself up for it, ignoring him and all like she did. Oh, but really she's just crazy. See, because really, it's only "perceived" harassment on her part, not "real" harassment. But still.. she set herself up for it.{/sarcasm off}
So, yes, after further evaluation, this is victim blaming, quite explicitly so.
"By ignoring me, you set yourself up for this perceived harassment."
In my opinion, the most disturbing aspect is belittling the victim's perception of the victimizer's actions ("perceived harassment").
Or, for those who understand better with sarcasm:
{sarcasm on}How dare the victim "ignore" this stalwart gentleman? Clearly then, she had all this coming. Never seen a more obvious case of setting herself up for it, ignoring him and all like she did. Oh, but really she's just crazy. See, because really, it's only "perceived" harassment on her part, not "real" harassment. But still.. she set herself up for it.{/sarcasm off}
- If you have a history of not answering your phone and thinking nothing of it,
- and I am asking you to provide a copy of a document that will make my life easier,
- and you have not said you will not provide it,
- nor have you asked me to stop calling you (i.e. demonstrated that you aren't just being typically hard to get hold of),
- then calling you repeatedly is not harassment.
Acknowledging that is not "victim blaming."
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Ha, we are such a weak nation if we think this person is a Victim. People that die in terrorist attacks or are scared for life are Victims, this person is a slightly annoyed passive aggressive individual that needs confirmation from others that her so called "aggressor" is an evil mean GM.
@:another mage: Slightly off topic...would this be victim blaming?
Someone shoots a gun at you.
You shoot back hitting them and wounding them.
They say "You shot me."
You reply" well you shot at me first."
I think victim blaming gets thrown around alot. The above I don't think is victim blaming...it is more of a failure to communicate issue.
"By ignoring me, you set yourself up for this perceived harassment."
In my opinion, the most disturbing aspect is belittling the victim's perception of the victimizer's actions ("perceived harassment").
Or, for those who understand better with sarcasm:
{sarcasm on}How dare the victim "ignore" this stalwart gentleman? Clearly then, she had all this coming. Never seen a more obvious case of setting herself up for it, ignoring him and all like she did. Oh, but really she's just crazy. See, because really, it's only "perceived" harassment on her part, not "real" harassment. But still.. she set herself up for it.{/sarcasm off}
- If you have a history of not answering your phone and thinking nothing of it,
- and I am asking you to provide a copy of a document that will make my life easier,
- and you have not said you will not provide it,
- nor have you asked me to stop calling you (i.e. demonstrated that you aren't just being typically hard to get hold of),
- then calling you repeatedly is not harassment.
Acknowledging that is not "victim blaming."
The actions themselves don't matter in this case. I'm not trying to prove that the actions qualify as "According to Hoyle" harassment. We're not taking the Pepsi Challenge here.
In essence "If you've a problem with {my actions}, its of your own doing, not mine."
1. The person acting explicitly disclaims responsibility for those actions. ("not mine")
2. The person acting explicitly places the responsibility for the actions on the person acted upon. ("your own doing")
3. The person acting suggests that if the victim feels victimized ("if you've a problem") that it is the victim's blame ("your own doing") and not the person acting's blame ("not mine").
The final sentence is quite explicitly victim blaming.
Telling another person they are responsible for your behavior is victim blaming. Regardless of what the behavior may or may not be.
Except when they are responsible, because your behavior was perfectly acceptable under normal circumstances but there were circumstances you couldn't have known which change the result of that behavior.
I'm not sure that "continually calling and coming over to my residence uninvited" is perfectly acceptable under normal circumstances in this situation. However, I can see your point in a more abstract case.
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Telling another person they are responsible for your behavior is victim blaming. Regardless of what the behavior may or may not be.
Except when they are not a victim.
You're saying it's not relevant whether there was actual harassment here, but it very much is. If Person A has an established behavior pattern (not answering the phone until one day spontaneously deciding to do so) and Person B has an established behavior pattern in response (ringing Person A until such time as they answer), it is not suddenly harassment if Person A decides she doesn't want to talk to Person B. It is harassment only after he has been made aware that extant behavior is no longer appropriate.
Since that was not the case, there was no harassment; where there is no crime, there is no victim. One cannot blame the victim when the victim does not exist. Informing someone that they have an obligation to meet before they become a victim is not the same thing as saying they are at fault for their own victimization.
Pissedoffplayer's GM: First, keep reading past the first two sentences after this, I'm going somewhere with it and will help you how to deal with your problem. Now: there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for you to actually need your ex-player's character sheet. Write the character out of the game, be done with it. As an experienced GM, my advice is to first just let the party play as they are. I've run games with low/minimal mages, they did fine. They may have to adjust tactics but it is okay to not have a party that fills the "classic four" roles, they often still do quite well. If the party IS struggling, create an NPC hireling spellcaster (or if one of your PCs voluntarily takes the Leadership feat, a cohort) to help them out. I suggest starting with the NPCs in the NPC codex, such as the sorcerers written up here.
Pissedoffplayer: No, you do not need to give your GM your character sheet. And it is not protected by copyright unless you publicly publish it, at which point your GM would be able to get access to it for personal/fair use anyway. But there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for you to give your GM your sheet if you don't want to.
Both of you: You clearly do not get along, and are causing undue stress in each other's lives. Stop communicating with each other, there is no situation to "win" here, and go have fun and happy lives separately.
I'd like to see him continue running THAT character!
Well, really, that wouldn't be a continuance, since I'm pretty sure that's not what the character originally looked like. If it is, I apologize.
I'm going to rehash what I, and a few others, said earlier. This whole situation could have been avoided if people treated each other like adults.
Case in point: Adults, usually, if they know what's good for them, talk about what they want out of a game before they enter into it. I know I do. Adults civilly and calmly discuss discrepancies of opinion. Adults answer phone calls and emails in a prompt manner. Adults also know when a course of action is futile, and therefore adapt with their given resources, and move on. From the few responses of both the player and the GM in this situation, I'm not sure that any of those things happened in a reciprocal fashion.
So I guess I'll say it one more time. Treat each other like adults, and many of these problems can be avoided.
Edit: I'm not the greatest at math, so correct me if I screwed this up, but assuming a minimum average speed of 30 miles per hour (driving), a four minute drive gets you two miles. I'm guessing the GM is in really good shape because his walking pace is twelve miles an hour, for a pace of a five minute mile.
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Some people really seem to be invested in wanting to blame the GM.
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Because the GM sounds like a Creeper.
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The GM that PissedOffPlayer describes sounds like a creeper, sure. However, the actions that the GM themselves described sound perfectly reasonable.
In other words, at minimum one of the two of them must be either exaggerating or understating their case. Given that none of us know them from the man on the moon, I'd say it's presumptuous to judge either one based solely on the other person's (or their own) testimony — at least one and possibly both could be misrepresenting or misrecollecting things.
My advice is for each of them to be the bigger person.
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I think the GM pretty much confirmed it though, and worse he went on to not only confirm it but then closed the deal with the 'brought it on yourself' routine.
His choice of words alone suggest he thinks this is a sort of 'warranted punishment', some dude repeatedly calling a girl and then dropping around her house for something as trivial and meaningless as a character sheet? really?
Upon seeing the post by POplayer he could have responded 'Hey sorry, didnt realise you saw it that way/had that effect/wasnt my intention' but nooooo 'You made me do it to you'.
Nah I'm satisfied its a case of Creeperitis.
Rynjin steals the words from my mouth
But does he own the copyright on those words?
I would like to clear up a point or two here...
1) My "continually going over" to the player's home...first of all, I went over a grand total of twice, and there was about a week between attempts. Secondly, the player lives about a 10 minute WALK from me (maybe a 4 minute drive). Had I actually been intent on "harassment", I could easily have made several attempts PER DAY.
2) The player does not live alone. The phone was answered, a total of ONCE, by the roommate. When I asked to speak to the player, I was told that she was asleep. Nothing else.
3) When I got the email sent by the player stating that she was quitting the game, I tried to call right away. This is about 10 minutes AFTER she had already called me. No answer. So right away, it started.
4) I had told no one else that I had tried or was going to try going to the player's apartment directly. The only way she could know I did try was that she was home when I tried, looked through the peephole and saw it was me, and ignored me rather than answer the door.
You know what, though? You didn't even need to do any of that. As the GM, you knew the character's basic nature, his/her name, and (hopefully) something of the stats. I know that I personally know all my players' PC inside and out.
If following through on loose ends or keeping the character as an NPC was such a big deal to you, why didn't you just dummy up a "close-enough" copy from memory, call it by the same name, and continue on?
That you chose to come after the player AT ALL is weird to me. Sounds like your issue, completely. I'm not saying that the player is acting totally adult, either. I'm just saying it's a freakin' game, one request was enough, more than that is weird, and you were far more intent than any healthy, normal GM has any cause to be.
And furthermore, the whoe story about 'checking the sheet for loot/items' seems hokey.
'Hey guys, player X left with some gear, have Y amount of GP worth of items, or I have a short list for you to have'. Problem solved.
Or was it that she broke up with you? :p
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Wow, Shifty is actively changing gears from "wanting the GM to be the bad guy" to "making stuff up to make him look worse".
The GM is the bad guy, it's not a case of what I want, why would I WANT the GM to be the bad guy, I've never met either of them so have 0 vested interest.
The actos of the GM himself, and his own words make him the bad guy.
I also reckon his story is extraordinarily bogus and don't believe his 'motivations' at all, they simply don't make sense on any realistic nor sensible level, they are just plain 'odd' and creepy, right down to the phone calls and house visits and 'you made me do this to you'.
He doesn't need to be given a character sheet, he needs to be given a restraining order.
Mind you, his status as a GM has little to do with this other than identifying who he is - this isn't about GM's, this is about bad behaviour.
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Shifty, he might be persistent, but "pissedoffplayer" has not properly communicated with him. I suspect his victim blaming has caused a lot of people to lost sight of the fact that "pissedoffplayer" has been ignoring him rather than telling him to go away. Can't really fault the guy for trying to get a hold of her by phone or in person (knocking on her door twice in a two-week period doesn't sound very "creepy" to me; sounds like ordinary behavior, especially if this person is "a friend of 20 years" as the GM has pointed out).
That said, I don't think he needs the sheet. Hell, after that much trouble I don't understand why he's continued trying to get a hold of her. I'd just throw together some stats for the character or have her killed, with a pile of level appropriate gear on her person (doesn't have to be exactly what she had; ballpark's fine).
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Shifty, he might be persistent, but "pissedoffplayer" has not properly communicated with him. I suspect his victim blaming has caused a lot of people to lost sight of the fact that "pissedoffplayer" has been ignoring him rather than telling him to go away. Can't really fault the guy for trying to get a hold of her by phone or in person (knocking on her door twice in a two-week period doesn't sound very "creepy" to me; sounds like ordinary behavior, especially if this person is "a friend of 20 years" as the GM has pointed out).
That said, I don't think he needs the sheet. Hell, after that much trouble I don't understand why he's continued trying to get a hold of her. I'd just throw together some stats for the character or have her killed, with a pile of level appropriate gear on her person (doesn't have to be exactly what she had; ballpark's fine).
Can't really put it better than that.
Incorrect, copyright comes into being when the work is placed in a fixed form or performed before an audience. Publication is not only not required, the Berne Convention specifically extends protection to unpublished works
You're right, the important part is that it is made public ("displayed or performed publicly"). Since it is a character sheet and thus printed text, and therefore more likely to be published than read aloud to an audience, I used the term "published." I was not suggesting it was the only way to make any work copyrighted, but the way most likely to make that specific work copyrighted. I did not mean to be deceptive, but I was not going to go into technicalities of copyright law for a simple gaming discussion of gaming.
The more important discussion is hoping the dispute/struggle between players and I worry nitpicking at copyright law derails the thread from some of the more worrisome interpersonal issues discussed.
That said, I don't think he needs the sheet. Hell, after that much trouble I don't understand why he's continued trying to get a hold of her. I'd just throw together some stats for the character or have her killed, with a pile of level appropriate gear on her person (doesn't have to be exactly what she had; ballpark's fine).
And therein lies the rub eh, why indeed?
Why, after even he says 'vistis, emails, phonecalls' did he still persist with something so trivial?
I reckon after the third attempt at communication going unanswered you'd just plain stop, especially as you already knew there was a falling out. It's not like she disappeared and he was worried.
Anyhow, I suspect that there might well be a bit of fakery going on and we are being led down a bit of a merry ride, so in which case I intend to enjoy the soap opera for all its worth and merrily throw popcorn at the villain.
Hurrah!
One point to consider -- the player was offended enough by his GM's behavior that he wanted no part of the campaign any more. Do you really want to help him continue running a character you created as an NPC? I was rather offended when a GM whose play style (among other things) seriously bothered me did just that with my player character when I quit his campaign (the other players told me about it). At least he did not ask for my assistance in doing that (I think he just rebuilt the character as an NPC based on his own observations of the character in play.).
The GM indicated the PC had some plot-related items, so I can see why he wanted to get ahold of them. Especially since the player just kind of dropped off the face of the earth, rather than, say, tell the GM what was going on.
That being said, the GM gave up, the player's avoiding the GM, so who cares?
Here's a thread idea: Alignment debate over whether a paladin should lose his powers for dying to save an evil guy. It perfectly captures the "pointless debate" aspect of these forums!
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If the player had some plot related items, then the GM would have known what they were and simply reassignmed them, or are these plot related items somehow ones the GM doesn't know about and has to check?
I call shennanigans.
This isn't a 'player/gm' conversation, the game has nothing to do with it and is a trivial point, this is the breakdown of an interpersonal relationship and the 'GM' person wanting a reason to continue some form of social interaction, the way some people do when they break up.
If a player left my game, there's a good chance I'd ask for the character sheet just to make phasing the character out easier. Nothing to do with wanting to be pals with the player--the character was in my game and I'd like to have them on hand.
If the player wants to keep the sheet, that'd be fine. I can always just say "they got sick and left/died". But the player would need to tell me that. Not play games trying to "hint" that he wants me to back off. I have Aspergers, and I'm not very good at taking hints. :P
Here's a thread idea: Alignment debate over whether a paladin should lose his powers for dying to save an evil guy. It perfectly captures the "pointless debate" aspect of these forums!
Of course not. blah, blah, blah.
(Sorry could not think of a pointless arguement...)
Position #1: The GM trying to make the paladin lose his powers is a perfect example of a power-hungry GM who thinks the players can't do a thing to stop him!
Position #2: The player is clearly a greedy minmaxer who wants to ruin everybody's fun by ignoring what paladins are supposed to be!
Position #3: This argument is stupid!
There. We're done. Back to the "topic" at hand!
Take phone with camera on it. Take a picture of sheet. Email it to GM. Say, "There you go, good luck." If the GM says they can't read it and could you give them a better copy, inform them unfortunately you have thrown it away. He'll just have to wing it.
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Beyond the normal behavioral stuff, there's an additional lesson to be learned here for GMs.
After every level up get a copy of the character sheets.
I find players to be notoriously unreliable at keeping track of their sheets and remembering to bring them to a game. If I'm running the game and hosting, I ask for the sheets to be handed in at the end of every session.
Works the other way, too. If I'm playing a regular home game at the GM's house, I prefer to turn my sheet in to said GM at the end of the game. One less thing to worry about bringing.
I should add that I typically run a character's stats by Paizo messageboards before I play it, so it's pretty easy for me to work on a character between sessions without having the sheet in front of me.
If the player had some plot related items, then the GM would have known what they were and simply reassignmed them, or are these plot related items somehow ones the GM doesn't know about and has to check?
I call shennanigans.
This isn't a 'player/gm' conversation, the game has nothing to do with it and is a trivial point, this is the breakdown of an interpersonal relationship and the 'GM' person wanting a reason to continue some form of social interaction, the way some people do when they break up.
+1.
I am VERY suspicious of the paradoxical situation in which the GM
a) provided items that the campaign can't continue without, and
b) can't remember what those items are, and must hound a former player to get access to the magical character sheet containing said items.
If both a and b are true, I think the game needs to start over with a new GM. But that seems like a real stretch, and I suspect that either GM can't take no for an answer or is simply engaging in some RL griefing, or some combination of both.
Seems to me that the player probably stopped coming to games because he (she?) had such a lousy GM. As a GM, I can't imagine stalking such a player to a Paizo forum and harassing him (or her) for leaving my game.
This whole thread seems pretty trollsy. A post complaining about a game from a 1-post account, and then a follow-up from another new account defending himself.
The whole situation of "he said, she said" just seems designed to incite a lot of argument, and so far it's working.
Y'all, I think you've been had.
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I don't think I've been had.
I full expect a Sarkeesian video to be posted next, and a long monologue about creeper behaviour being handwaved and given a pass in the gaming community.
If, on the other hand, it is a legit post... well thats even more fightening.
Hope they hurry up either way though, my box of popcorn is running low.
See, that's the thing. Except for the GM following the original poster to the forums (which strikes me as the most trollsy detail) I don't see a lot of his actions as creeper-status.
Honestly, I could see myself accidentally doing exactly what he did. They've been friends/friendly for 20 years and he made a few attempts to get ahold of her. She perceives it as harassment and runs to the forums to vent or seek advice. She hasn't come back, so that leaves her original position somewhat suspect.
Maybe the GM is a creeper. But maybe he's just a guy who got wrapped up in a really awkward situation he didn't even know he was in, and then got frustrated when he was branded a villain on the forums. Maybe in his frustration he defended himself, like anyone might do, and said a few things he probably shouldn't have.
In my opinion, both parties are at fault. The OP acted like a coward and a jerk by deliberately ignoring/avoiding the GM, never bringing up her concerns to the person who matters, and then running to the forums to paint him as a harasser. The GM is potentially oblivious of social queues (not necessarily a crime) and maybe even a bit too pushy by some standards. He didn't keep very good track of his own game, which is on him. The worst thing he did, by my viewing, was throwing all the blame onto the OP. Yeah, maybe this was a misunderstanding, but posts in the vein of "you brought this on yourself" don't garner much sympathy. Also, following the OP to the forums is a mite bit creepy (even if just to defend yourself).
If it's a legit situation I feel kinda bad. Both of these people are at fault and it could have been avoided by simply talking to each other. I hope each leaves this with some sort of personal growth.
@ Shifty: I don't think anyone in the Sarkeesian/sexism threads said anything about "handwaving" creep behavior, merely that what is and what is not considered "creepy" is open to interpretation, yadda, yadda--yea, not really the best place to discuss it :)
Sure DM, I get what you are saying, I just think that if this IS a fake thread, there are enough things that make me go 'ummmm' because they look just like some of the behaviours/ideas disputed oh so very recently on a few locked threads.
If it is fake, then to what end?
If it is legit, then both parties were kinda weaksauce, but the GM could have been less socially unware.
Also if they'd known each other for such a long time, the GM probably knew exactly what was going down... something happened here, and it wasn't just 'sloppy GM'ing'.
I get where you're coming from. I usually don't cry "troll", but this thread is a bit fishy.
I recently left a Pathfinder game due to the GM's continual need to be right and correct bogging the game play down. No matter what anyone did the rules had to be consulted and followed exactly unless it was decided they should be ignored cause they were to "ambiguous". this included bloodline abilities!
I sent an e-mail as per request of the GM who said "oh sorry to lose you wish you were staying" never once asking why i was leaving. The GM then requested me to turn in my character, that yes i created. I figured my lack of response to this request would make my position clear.
However, the GM is being very insistent on me handing my character over so that the game can continue. The GM is continually calling and coming over to my residence uninvited. I am trying to keep things "civil" but this behavior is bordering on harassment! Especially when I am trying to recover from a bad lung infection.
Although i have googled it i can't find an answer to these questions:
1)Do I have to hand over my character?
2)Does intellectual copyright extend to rpg character creation, within the framework of the gaming system?
(example of what i mean, the gm can demand but i am not legally required to hand over my character sheet but if Paizo says "gimme" i do have to give it to them kinda thing is what i was thinking).Thanks to everyone in advance. if someone can direct me to another thread if this has already been covered, great! if not, any place where this topic has been touched on would be fab as well!
You don't have to do a damn thing. The dm is being a bit weird, tell them to get off your lawn next time they come around.