Our group made a trait that gave you +1 skill points per level. A little powerful for a trait, but in a way that we like it.
...so someone dumped Int, but still wants a few skill points to spend? Take the trait! You're a rogue and want ALL DA SKILLZ? Take the trait. Whoever you are, if you care enough to have some skill points, you have your trait.
remember that someone that has a 7 int has a IQ of 70, with that IQ they would be lucky to know 1 or 2 skills trained after that they would be untrained in almost everything. Its not the skill points that need to be changed its the ability for people to dump stats that needs to be changed, think if someone had a 70 IQ would anyone want to adventure with them for any amount of time, would you want them on watch at night or watching your back?INT has no clear connection to IQ, and certainly not a simply * 10. One in a billion is six standard deviations; there's no reason to expect any human on Golarion to have above a 100 + 6 * 15 = 190 IQ. But human characters with 20 INTs are a dime a dozen, not unique.
If 10 is an average stat, then "no dump stats" means that you can't have a character who is subaverage in any way. That's quite a limitation on character concepts.
True, there is no such correlation to Int to IQ, but this is fantasy we're talking about. So fantasy IQ is bound to stretch the bounds of plausibility, and no, 20 Int is not a dime a dozen among the commoners of Golarion, it's just a dime a dozen among wizard builds on these forums.
You CAN have your dumpstat, its just that whatever you dumped in wont be all that amazing... if someone dumped CON then complained they didn't have enough HP to be a good Fighter, would you even listen to them?
So why is INT fair game?
I see the problem as players want their characters to be good in EVERYTHING. Just because something is a class skill, does not mean your unique character should be excellent in it. If anything, the argument could be made, that PF gives out too many skill points to some classes. Too many skill points mean that everyone is able to trick out their characters with all the best skills. No hard choices for the players to make, which means almost all characters will have similar sets of skills.
Fewer skill points would mean that characters would have to decide on a few skills to be really good in, or be mediocre in everything. I think it would make for better game play if characters had to depend on their companions, each having unique set of skills they specialize. Much better than everyone at the table duplicating each other. A requirement for teamwork makes for a better game, than every character being an Army of One.
You CAN have your dumpstat, its just that whatever you dumped in wont be all that amazing... if someone dumped CON then complained they didn't have enough HP to be a good Fighter, would you even listen to them?
So why is INT fair game?
Well, it may be a poor reflection on the community or perhaps the game, but the perception is that whether a character has 1 skill point per level or 10 skill points per level, the character's power is the same. So why not open the skill system to more classes since it hardly affects game balance?
Not saying this is a good thing, but just stating what I see. Skill points seem barely relevant to the power of your character.
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As for Fighters being short changed, I beg to differ. While they may not get a lot of skill points to learn Skills, they are spending their time learning other types of material, namely Feats. These feats do not just happen, it is assumed that the fighter is spending time practicing and training to perfect these manuevers. Time that he cannot afford to use in other types of activities, such as improving Skills. Progressions in Skills and Feats, and other Class Abilities is assumed to happen, because the character is spending appropriate amount of time to acquire and maintain them. Some classes get more in one facet of the game, but that usually means they get less somewhere else.
Don't dismiss how much time and effort it takes to perfect a combat skill. It would be similar to the amount of time modern athletes spend practicing. If you want to be average, you go to practice, and you do the same thing everyone else on the team does. You want to excel, you put it lots of extra time, when noone else is around. A high level PF fighter, would be one of that decided to excel in his profession, far above that of your average soldier. And the thing about combat feats, and physical skills, is that you have to keep working on them, keep training, or they will deteriorate. Knowledge and other non-physical skills can basically be learned, and you always have them. Thus a wizard can learn a lot of different things, without constantly having to train, to maintain his knowledge. To make it applicable to a game, give the wizard and rogue more skills. Give the fighter more combat feats.
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Don't dismiss how much time and effort it takes to perfect a combat skill. It would be similar to the amount of time modern athletes spend practicing. If you want to be average, you go to practice, and you do the same thing everyone else on the team does. You want to excel, you put it lots of extra time, when noone else is around. A high level PF fighter, would be one of that decided to excel in his profession, far above that of your average soldier. And the thing about combat feats, and physical skills, is that you have to keep working on them, keep training, or they will deteriorate. Knowledge and other non-physical skills can basically be learned, and you always have them. Thus a wizard can learn a lot of different things, without constantly having to train, to maintain his knowledge. To make it applicable to a game, give the wizard and rogue more skills. Give the fighter more combat feats.
"In conclusion, the wizard should be able to cast every spell ever with minimal time investment, but the fighter shouldn't be allowed to practice both tripping people and climbing walls because that's way too time-consuming and unrealistic."
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Wizards get 2sp/level.
Fighter gets 2sp/level.
How is the wizard getting an advantage here?
Wizards get 2sp/level.
Fighter gets 2sp/level.How is the wizard getting an advantage here?
The wizard is getting no advantage, assuming you've house-ruled that fighters can get Int to hit and damage.
So this all comes down to Int then, is that what you are saying?
Wizards get 2sp/level.
Fighter gets 2sp/level.How is the wizard getting an advantage here?
All you're challenging with this question is the ability to express the harder-to-express obvious.
The wizard's skill advantage isn't from sp/level, it comes from INT (the skillpoint affecting stat) being a higher return on investment ability score than for the fighter.
A wizard with low INT is pretty much a commoner with a talking raven.
A fighter with low INT is a fighter with a few more points to spread around his build for more fighter-relevant things.
That's the answer to your question, so enough about that.
I'm a skill junkie. Even my barbarians need at least an INT of 12, that's just how much of a skill junkie I am, because I love the utility of skills, and how they give new avenues for various game situations, both in combat and in those "years pass" categories.
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Wizards get all of their class features from Int and are encouraged to pump Int through the roof. Fighters need four high non-Int scores just to contribute. Obviously if your fighter has less Int than my wizard it's your own fault for being a munchkin.
Fighters NEED four? Just to 'contribute'?
Malignor at least is sensible enough to take a decent Into so he can have more skill points. If a player chooses not to go down the skill point path, and instead invests in moar Con/Dex/Str then thats his bag, but he can't then complain the guy with high Int was better than he was at learning things.
Whilst Wiz get their class features from Int, if they want to be good with their Skills they will also need to pump Wis/Cha/Dex/Str. Con is about the only thing they wont need.
Same same for Rogues... so many crucial skills tie to Int/wis/cha, in conflict with his prime requisite stats.
It's fighters not being allowed to know how to tie their shoes.
Why is this the case? Why can't your fighter tie his shoes? does he have a really low Int?
A fighter with 10 int gets 2 skill points. A wizard with 10 int also gets 2 skill points, and can only cast cantrips.
Unless you have a bard who's into putting ranks in Knowledge, the wiz is the party's encyclopedia. He gets Knowledge skills, mostly. It's what you'd expect. He's smart.
Fighters need all the physical stats just to be OK, if not great. They also need to have decent skills and saves, or they suffer.
I think 4 skills/level, with at least perception added, wouldn't hurt game balance.
What warrior isn't alert to threats? Just the dead ones.
I'd happily have a conversation that suggests a Fighter should have Perception, ridiculous that isn't a class skill.
Almost as ridiculous as the Cavalier not having Know:Nobility, or any other Knowledge skill for that matter.
It's fighters not being allowed to know how to tie their shoes.Why is this the case? Why can't your fighter tie his shoes? does he have a really low Int?
INT is irrelevant, tying ropes is based on your CMB ...
Still waiting on your response to the premise that base 2 skill points per level actually incentives dumping your INT.
I'd happily have a conversation that suggests a Fighter should have Perception, ridiculous that isn't a class skill.
There have been good arguments for Handle Animal and Healing, too. Fighters may ignore those skills if someone else can do it better. They wouldn't ignore them after a few levels, if they had to take care of a special mount, drive a wagon or help with some first aid, especially if there's no strong healer in the party.
Look, everybody! The fighter's rolling a skill check! XD
Almost as ridiculous as the Cavalier not having Know:Nobility, or any other Knowledge skill for that matter.
Seems like a gimme. Maybe history, too. The cavalier is steeped in knightly tradition. He'd know at least a little about patronage and the history of his order.
Malignor at least is sensible enough to take a decent Int so he can have more skill points. If a player chooses not to go down the skill point path, and instead invests in moar Con/Dex/Str then thats his bag, but he can't then complain the guy with high Int was better than he was at learning things.
Not only that, but having ranks can translate to:
These are all useful things to know aside from "chop up with sword"
Further, a fighter has lots of feats, so investing one into skills is a minor cost compared to other classes... take Cosmopolitan and turn Perception and UMD into class skills. Now you have REAL reason to have some ranks.
Whilst Wiz get their class features from Int, if they want to be good with their Skills they will also need to pump Wis/Cha/Dex/Str. Con is about the only thing they wont need.
waitWhat? Con not needed? Con is #2 for importance, to help cover the lowest HD and that bad Fort save (the one used in most save-or-die effects). CHA is only useful for enchanters (to manipulate those you charm) and conjurers (planar binding), and barely useful for most others and STR is pretty close to a dump stat for wizzies, if not for encumberence.
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I don't think that all classes need a skill point boost but I would agree fighters do need 4 per level. A couple of thoughts:
A. The US army has over 200+ field manuals. Soldiers need to know a lot to survive, more so in a world where magic and monsters abound.
B. Fighters have issues; First they are on the low end of the power spectrum vs other full BAB classes. I don't subscribe to the view that they are unplayable but I do think they are a bit weaker than a barbarian, paladin or ranger. Second the class just feels so much more mechanical and boring than other classes. I think this is why you see so many "fighters suck" posts. It's not that you can't build a mechanically decent fighter, it's that it's more difficult to build a fighter that feels unique and "alive". When a paladin smites evil they aren't just gaining a plus to hit and damage, they are getting a great role playing moment when they call upon the righteous might of their god and fulfill their divine purpose.... the fighter that took weapon focus with his fighter feat...has a +1. The Ranger gets a freaking sidekick to role play interactions with... the fighter takes weapon spec and gets +2 to damage...woohoo. A few extra skill points gives the fighter a slight power boost but more importantly it helps define the fighter's fluff and back story!
C. I really think Fighters should get a bonus to knowledge checks to identify creatures. Their entire purpose is to stab things... don't you think they'd focus on how, where and with what they should do it with? I would like to see them have a class ability called tactics that gives them a scaling bonus to identify monsters. Think of a bunch of grizzled old veterans sitting around the fire swapping war stories;
" Now this scar, this one I got fighting a troll down in the evermarshes. Fred and I were camped out for the night and had just opened a bottle of good mead when the bastard stumbled in to our camp. Fred had been sharpening his sword and managed to stab the thing straight through the heart while it was still adjusting to the light of the fire. Son of a B#$%^ dropped like a sack of flour. Oh man, you shoulda seen the look of surprise on it's face! But when Fred reached down to wipe his blade on the animal skin it was wearing the damn thing gasped back to life, reached up and tore out his throat. It came after me next and I must've sliced the thing a dozen times but the cuts just kept closing up, finally I got a good shot in and the troll stumbled back and fell in to the campfire. That didn't heal. You ever run in to one of those beasts make sure you use fire to put it down... I ought'a warn ya though burning troll's the worst damn thing I've ever smelled, even worse than cook's mystery stew!"
waitWhat? Con not needed? Con is #2 for importance, to help cover the lowest HD and that bad Fort save
Oh well there you go.
Mind you I was specifically aiming at Skills, as opposed to anything else.
That being said, there's now a case that suggests the Wizzie needs high stats in every ability - poor wizzie :(
For those that are having trouble with builds and insisting that Fighters suck and can't use skills blah blah, I'd recommend they check out the recent Fighter build posts that have umpteen examples contradicting that premise.
Still waiting on your response to the premise that base 2 skill points per level actually incentives dumping your INT.
The reason classes with 2 per level are mechanically encouraged to dump int is the following (I shorten "skill ranks per level" to "skills").=:
If you dump int to 7 you lose 2 skills.
However, there is a minimum of 1 skill point per level from your class.
Therefore the classes with more than 2 skills (like Rangers) lose 2 skills from dumping int to 7.
Classes with only 2 skills (like fighters) lose 1 skill for dumping int to 7.
Thus, classes that gain only 2 skills get the least downside from dumping int to 7.
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Which is one of many reasons that classes who are expected not to pump int (aka everyone except Int-based casters) should have 4+int skill points per level. Doing so reduces the incentive to dump and makes dumping as penalizing as it should be.
To the person upthread who asked about the Sage sorcerer archetype, I could see that Archetype reducing the Sorcerer's base skill points from 4 to 2. The whole 'sage' thing, although fluff, carries the same fluff weight that a Wizard's scholarly conditioning does, aka that the character committed far more time to study than practical experience.
So in other words, because you're expected to have intelligence, you should be penalized?
I assume then wizards in your game should have fighter BAB, and add their level to all Cha skills. They're not expected to have high strength or charisma, and therefore must have bonuses to compensate them for dumping those stats to boost int. Much like the fighter and cleric need more skill points because they might dump intelligence.
I never said it was encouraged from an in character perspective, only mechanically.
You could have kept your Int at 10 for a single skill rank more per level, but mechanically, for what a fighter is likely trying to achieve, those 4 points in point buy are probably worth it.
EDIT:
Suppose you gave Fighters 3 skills per level. This gives nothing to a Fighter with 7 Int, but gives all other Fighters +1 skill per level.
I'm not saying these things to advocating dumping Int or advocate giving Fighters more skill points. These things are just facts of the system and regardless of what you think you should be aware of these things.
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Again it's the same thing though kyrt-ryder.
"The wizard's going to suck in melee, so I will dump strength."
"But if you dump strength, you can't hit anything! Look, I'll give you the BAB of a fighter, so you have a chance to hit in Melee if you don't dump strength."
And that still doesn't change that you penalize an archtype just because *gasp* he might have more skill points.
"We need to give the fighter more skill points, because he dumps intelligence."
"We need to take points away from the sage-sorcerer, because he uses intelligence."
That's one way to look at it. I look at it like this:
It is unacceptable to be a first level fighter that can't both ride a horse, take care of a horse, and take care of his equipment so dumping INT is off the table.
"Take care of his equipment" alone costs 3 skill points per level, because Craft is divided into a bunch of different subskills (but Spellcraft isn't).What you call the lowest rung of acceptability requires an Int score of 16.
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So Wizards get a free pass and **** the Fighters.
Yup, I think I've spent too much time in this thread, so I'm going to bow out now before I start getting really angry.
Good luck Abadar! Sorry we threadjacked you with this debate.
You make your choices; you live with the results.
I choose for my fighter to have skills.
If you're too busy trying to beat the barbarian at DPR to develop anything else, that is your decision, not something forced upon you by the rules.
"Take care of his equipment" alone costs 3 skill points per level, because Craft is divided into a bunch of different subskills (but Spellcraft isn't).What you call the lowest rung of acceptability requires an Int score of 16.
Per level? Since when does the Fighter need max ranks in Craft?
The highest craft DC she'll have to make is a 20.That means a bonus of +10 is as high as she'll ever need to take 10 to craft or repair a masterwork item.
A weapon+bow+armor craft junkie would need 3x[7-IntBonus] ranks. Any craft junkie would also have decent INT.
A dumb thug (INT 7) could have just 1 rank in each, getting (1rank+3class-2INT) +2, allowing them to craft or repair simple weapons (longspear, spiked gauntlet, javelin, morningstar, etc), non-composite bows, arrows, padded & leather armor, and light & heavy shields... all by taking 10.
That's certainly enough to get by in a pinch, between towns.
Again, I'm merely defending the point, even though I'd never do that myself. As I stated earlier, I myself am a skillpoint junkie who's never made a character with INT below 12, and I find "dump stats" personally distasteful.