Hello all and thanks for any advice or tips regarding the following situation.
I am starting a new game set in Eberron and two of the players decided to make Summoners and I was looking for and tips or advice on how to help keep the game challenging and interesting for them when there is a lot of summoned creatures. The party is as follows.
Gnome Summoner (Master Summoner)
Gnome Rogue, but will be going Summoner (Synthesist) from 2nd level on
Warforged Artificer
Human Paladin
The game is starting in Sharn and will be focused around dungeon crawls set in various exotic locals with a sandbox approach to the world in general. The Rogue/Synthesist starts off really weak but he is focusing on making a DEX based serpent Eidolon which will have amazing skills and good defenses with solid offense though it will take some time to develop. The Master Summoner is pretty standard with huge CHA, the Paladin is a 2h build and the Artificer is a 1h+shield heavy armor build.
Has anyone had multiple summoners before and where there any issues or pitfalls that you ran into? Does anyone see any major issues with this party set up or have any good ideas for types of enemies that I can mix in from time to time to provide a tough fight?
Thank you for your time and consideration.
The one house rule I would recommend is to have each player (not each player controlled creature) roll initiative. When the player's turn comes up, he takes in any desired order the turns of all creatures under his control. If he does not have full control of them all (for example, one of them is dominated or confused), have them take their turns in initiative modifier order, or determine randomly if they are equal.
I've noticed in my games that anyone playing more than one character (cohort, summons, animal companion, mount,...) seems to drag the combat along. I would suggest that you talk to the two summoners and the paladin about planning their actions about beforehand and even having separate character sheets for their eidolons and mount. Anything that makes the game go smoothly is always better. Personally, I think they should both be broodmasters and just go crazy with it!
I suggest you allow neither a Master Summoner or a synthesist. If you do, read all the Rules, FAQ, and threads. ALL OF THEM. Then math check the builds. Then post the builds here and we’ll show how the builds are wrong. Because- the builds will be wrong.
The master summoner is a HUGE spotlight hog. Combats will take forever. The other players will be able to go out for pizza, and you’ll wish you could too. Fun!
The Synthesist is actually slightly less powerful than a regular summoner, but the rules are so confusing you’ll spend about half your table time arguing about them. Fun, eh?
And a Artificer isn’t a Pathfinder class, and warforged isn’t a PF race. You’ll have more fun struggling to fit them into PF.
I suggest you ask for no summoners, PF only, and only Core & APG.
The initiative idea sounds like great advice thanks Davidknott242!
Nawtyit haha yeah broodmasters would make for a funny game, get through 1 round of combat each session!
DrDeth good advice, but I have already converted the Artificer and Warforged to Pathfinder and I feel that I have enough experience as a GM to handle the rules for the two summoners, plus I have Hero Labs to help with the math. I will post the builds once they are done just to double check though as Hero Labs doesn't catch everything. Thanks for the advice to be cautious as I agree that summoners are a high complexity class and should be approached carefully.
Synthesists are very easy to build incorrectly. Audit, audit, audit.
That said, Synthesists are not that big of a problem if they are built correctly. They don't hog the action economy that much, they have vulnerabilities (typically, at least), and you can apply social stigma to the eidolon body if you want.
Master Summoners are the destroyer of worlds. I would recommend against the Master Summoner archetype for your table if you are unsure. If you allow it, the Master Summoner should hand out his critters equally among the players to allow for less spotlight theft.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I suggest you allow neither a Master Summoner or a synthesist. If you do, read all the Rules, FAQ, and threads. ALL OF THEM. Then math check the builds. Then post the builds here and we’ll show how the builds are wrong. Because- the builds will be wrong.
The master summoner is a HUGE spotlight hog. Combats will take forever. The other players will be able to go out for pizza, and you’ll wish you could too. Fun!
The Synthesist is actually slightly less powerful than a regular summoner, but the rules are so confusing you’ll spend about half your table time arguing about them. Fun, eh?
And a Artificer isn’t a Pathfinder class, and warforged isn’t a PF race. You’ll have more fun struggling to fit them into PF.
I suggest you ask for no summoners, PF only, and only Core & APG..
Wow hello Mr. Negative.
That’s DOCTOR Negative to you. I didn’t put myself thru 8 years of Evil Overlord Necromancer school to be called “Mister”!
Serisan I really like the idea of other players each getting to resolve a summoned creature to help speed things up and keep everyone involved, thanks!
This group has a lot of unique strengths and unique weaknesses. I would encourage you to let the group fully experience these. What I mean is that you should design encounters as if you did not know who was in the party. (i.e. design encounters against a standard fighter/cleric/rogue/wizard party.)
When you do it this way, your party will absolutely curb-stomp some encounters. Let them. On the other hand, some encounters will be exceedingly difficult and they might have to run away, plan ahead, and reengage later. Let them struggle.
Part of the fun of playing weird stuff is getting to experience all the rough edges and ramifications of weird stuff. For example, don't coddle the Rogue/Synthesist, waiting until he comes into his own - hit him just as hard as you hit anyone else. Otherwise, you implicitly punish characters who spent resources to shore up their weaknesses.
And, as others have said, Master Summoner is a table-killer. Let the player try it out, and let the group try out what it's like having him in the party. But after 3 sessions, set aside some time to have a frank discussion and post-mortem, and ask the group if having a Master Summoner is in the best interests of the group. If not, then allow that PC to rebuild. And let the Master Summoner player know this is the plan ahead of time, that he's essentially on "test drive." This will encourage him to proactively find ways to run his character better.
As a Conjuror with a monster summoning focus, I suggest that you require your players to keep a chart handy with their summon's stats. Here is mine. The stats are with Augment Summoning and the Fiendish template applied (my character is Evil):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhG29lM-cprndGs5UU5BdEZVMGM2MT dqeEdJb3lFbWc&usp=sharing
Also, as above, all summons go on the turn of whomever summoned them to keep things simple. Also, realize that most summons can't be controlled (unless you can speak their language) so they tend to just attack the nearest enemy. If you see your summoners trying to do complex tactical maneuvers you should call foul.
Make sure you enforce and monitor summons' durations.
AOE's tend to clear out multiple summons quickly.
2 Summoners is going to be interesting. I'm curious how your campaign goes.
|
to counter summoners, hit them while they cast their summons! SM# spell line is a full round action. An arrow to the knee should force a Concentration check at least. Otherwise, bring more mooks to soak up the summons' attack.
AOE's tend to clear out multiple summons.
Summoners can summon using their spell like ability though, which only takes a standard action. So I'm afraid this particular trick won't work against summoners.
Well bleh. I should have rolled a Summoner! I took that part out.
Yea, that I knew. Sounds like they are starting at level 1 so duration should still be tracked.
Thanks for all the great advice.
Grouping all the summons on the same initiative as the summoner sounds like a good time saver.
Having a table discussion a couple sessions in to check with all the other players to make sure the game with all the summons is still fun is great advice. One player shouldn't ruin another players fun.
I have Hero Lab with all 3 Bestiaries so I will probably print out some stat blocks for all the applicable summons so that they are handy. Good tip and should help save time flipping through books.
I think I might try using tokens or something to help keep track of the durations for the summons.
For adventure design I agree with Erik Freund that I need to generally design the adventures without any specific classes in mind so that they get to enjoy their powers. I will mix in some specific encounters to create some challenge from time to time as appropriate to keep them on their toes.
Thanks again!
|
|
One thing to keep in mind if you're dealing with a master summoner and he's really going all out with summoning his minions is that it might be fun to have other players play, and get to know, his regular summons.
That way the rest of the table gets to join in a bit. This will certainly get more fun once you get to the higher summon monster X abilities that have exciting abilities themselves.
And the added benefit is that the master summoner doesn't hog all the limelight. :)
Synthist is fine. I would say though from personal experience, I would classify the master summoner as the only class i would consider overpowered. Which is neither a bad thing or a good thing, it just is.
At least they didn't pick brood master.
Also, as above, all summons go on the turn of whomever summoned them to keep things simple.Actually they go right before whomever summoned them.. and that's not out of convenience, but the way of things (until someone delays, readies, etc).
Now pets that were out when initiative was rolled should go separately. A +1 INIT summoned creature should not get the benefit of a +12 INIT summoner that has focused on going first. If it's already out then it rolls like everything else.
-James
Not sure what your point is, as it's irrelevant to the conversation.
By RAW, creatures summoned during combat rounds act on the summoners turn. They don't get an individual initiative roll.
If the summons already exists before initiative is rolled, then yes, it gets to roll separately.
But we weren't discussing RAW.
I was suggesting that all summons go on the turn of who summoned them to keep things simple. Hence the "as above" remark because I wasn't the first to suggest it.
+INIT items don't help either existing summons or creatures summoned during combat. Of course Summoners get a boost because they cast SM# as a standard action (meaning their summons will indirectly act sooner because the Summoner herself is acting sooner) but the only way to fix that is to houserule a fix to Summoners. Is that what you are suggesting?
I agree with what you said. Should the DM run each summon as an NPC? Of course. Should the DM run each NPC separately, with their own INITs? Of course. Should the DM monitor all durations? Of course. Will most DM's do all that? Hell no. I assign most of that to the players and keep the game rolling. Also, unless it's a particular battle that I want to run with a specific dynamic, all enemy NPC's act on the same turn. My players run their own summons, but if I see them trying to pull things that the summons wouldn't do I cry foul.
Example:
PC: My eagles fly around the enemy fighter and the enemy cleric and attack the mage in the back!
Me: Uh, no they don't. They attack the enemy fighter who is closest enemy to them.
PC: OK, fine. This one moves to the rear to provide the BSF a flank, and the other two flank each side!
Me: Uh, no they don't. They move in a straight line to the enemy and are side by side with the BSF.
I put responsibility on my players to act accordingly. After calling them out on their metagaming a few times, they cut out the shenanigans.
The one house rule I would recommend is to have each player (not each player controlled creature) roll initiative. When the player's turn comes up, he takes in any desired order the turns of all creatures under his control. If he does not have full control of them all (for example, one of them is dominated or confused), have them take their turns in initiative modifier order, or determine randomly if they are equal.
Yeah I agree. Whenever I have managed to play my summoner (a vanilla one so no weird achetypes) I say to the DM that I'll just go with whoever has the highest Init and have them both act on that. Streamlines it for the DM and makes things much easier.
Synthisist I believe bonds with the summoner so the two are basically one in my belief.
DrDeth good advice, but I have already converted the Artificer and Warforged to Pathfinder.
Oh really? Any way you could post your conversions? Always liked the artificer and I have a player who's interested in playing a warforged. Just hoping to steal some ideas :)
The one house rule I would recommend is to have each player (not each player controlled creature) roll initiative. When the player's turn comes up, he takes in any desired order the turns of all creatures under his control. If he does not have full control of them all (for example, one of them is dominated or confused), have them take their turns in initiative modifier order, or determine randomly if they are equal.
Yeah I agree. Whenever I have managed to play my summoner (a vanilla one so no weird achetypes) I say to the DM that I'll just go with whoever has the highest Init and have them both act on that. Streamlines it for the DM and makes things much easier.
Synthisist I believe bonds with the summoner so the two are basically one in my belief.
Or go with the lowest one, to avoid rewarding one character with a high initiative bonus over the others. Undervaluing Improved Initiative for a group that takes its turns together is better than overvaluing it by letting a single speedy character boost the whole group. We currently have everyone go on the initiative of the "boss", but I think I will suggest this to my DM (which will actually slow down my initiative slightly, since my cohort has a lower dexterity than her "boss").
Summoned creatures generally do not have initiatives of their own, per the text of the various summoning spells. The real issue comes up with pets and followers. Separate initiative rolls for each player rewards characters who have high dexterity, take the Improved Initiative feat, or otherwise boost their initiative rolls. Having a group of creatures under a single player's control (assuming a formal connection of some sort -- I did balk at combining my turn with that of an NPC the DM was having me run, since that NPC's only connection to my player character was that they were both being run by me) using the lowest applicable modifier makes having pets/followers vs. boosting initiative a strategic/tactical puzzle for that one player.
|
Now pets that were out when initiative was rolled should go separately. A +1 INIT summoned creature should not get the benefit of a +12 INIT summoner that has focused on going first. If it's already out then it rolls like everything else.
-James
Darned right already existing creatures should get their own inititive.
I arranged for my eidolon to have a far higher + init than my summoner for a reason.
Hello all and thanks for any advice or tips regarding the following situation.
Gnome Summoner (Master Summoner)
Gnome Rogue, but will be going Summoner (Synthesist) from 2nd level on
Warforged Artificer
Human Paladin
I would suggest a few things....
1. Ask the Master Summoner if he would be ok with playing a normal Summoner. They are limited to only having one Summons or thier pet out at once. This will cut down on number of creatures he has to roll for and help quicken your combat rounds.
2. Check, Double Check, and Check again the Synthesist. They can easily be built wrong. This doesn't mean your player is cheating. The rules for Synthesist can be confusing. Alot of this is due to how unique the class is though. Its less powerful then a normal Summoner so I would allow it... just check his math.
3. Are you using the 3.5 Artificer, the 3rd party Converstion for Pathfinder, or a homebrew conversion? You can find a list of Converstions (Including mine :D )HERE.
|
Honestly one things that is typically done for 'simplicity' is the summoner controling the summons, but in all honesty that's what the DM should do. They are NPCs.
I've seen a lot of players really take advantage of summoned creatures as if there is some mental network between the caster and all the creatures. I strongly agree with James that summoned creatures should be considered NPCs.
Remember that casters cannot direct a summoned creature unless they can communicate with them. At low levels, many of the summoned creatures are animals with no languages.
Another aspect is that players coordinate between their summoned creatures too much (again, as if there is some mental network happening). Have some of the other players roll attacks, damage, saves, etc for the summoned creatures, but the GM should handle the tactics.
And when the combat has finished, maybe have the summoned wolves start eyeing up the summoned dire rats (mmm, dinner).
+INIT items don't help either existing summons or creatures summoned during combat.So a summoner with an INIT bonus of +9 is walking around with a 3 summoned creatures with INIT bonuses of +1.
Combat starts.. suddenly all the summoned creatures gain the benefits of Improved initiative twice over.. that seems to be a help.
Now lets talk about 1 die roll vs multiple die rolls.
The enemy (singular) in the above example has an adjusted, rolled INIT of 19. What is the chance that the summoner and all of his summons get to act first?
When I GM, it's a flat d20 roll, so no bonuses for the NPC's. The only time the bonus is applied is if every creature is identical, or there is only one creature.
Here's another question, do you have the party roll one initiative or individual? Why? Wouldn't it be 'easier' to just let the PC with the highest modifier roll and they all go on that? What's the problem with that?
The players have one character to manage. One. Maybe a pet too, or a couple of summons.
The GM typically has several NPC's to manage, along with encounter conditions the PC's may not know about (hidden creatures, buffs, traps, yadayada).
There is no reason to take individuality away from the players when there is minimal gain.
Think on it a bit. It's not hard to keep track.. use init cards, dry erase board, or special 'init' boards designed just for it.
I am well aware of simple ways to speed up combat
There are a lot of things that 'most' DMs won't do.. my point is that they should try to do them. And there's nothing wrong with delegating a bit around the table.
Rather than aim for what's easiest, my suggestion would be to strive for what's best.
I am sorry if I, as a GM, don't want to subject my players to having to watch me roll 18 initiatives for all of my kobolds.
Sometimes what is easiest IS what is best. Thankfully I game with a group of mature players, whom I can trust to:
1)Not powergame
2)Not cheat
3)Keep the game moving
4)Enjoy roleplay
5)Not rules-lawyer
6)Think like a GM
If my suggestions don't fit into the OP's game group, then don't use my suggestions.
Honestly one things that is typically done for 'simplicity' is the summoner controling the summons, but in all honesty that's what the DM should do. They are NPCs.I've seen a lot of players really take advantage of summoned creatures as if there is some mental network between the caster and all the creatures. I strongly agree with James that summoned creatures should be considered NPCs.
Remember that casters cannot direct a summoned creature unless they can communicate with them. At low levels, many of the summoned creatures are animals with no languages.
Another aspect is that players coordinate between their summoned creatures too much (again, as if there is some mental network happening). Have some of the other players roll attacks, damage, saves, etc for the summoned creatures, but the GM should handle the tactics.
And when the combat has finished, maybe have the summoned wolves start eyeing up the summoned dire rats (mmm, dinner).
Unfortunatly you (and others on the thread)have a few things off a bit... From the PRD on Summon Monster I.
This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane).
1. It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn.
2. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability.
3. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.
1. So summoned creatures act on the casters initiative. They dont use their own initiative unless combat ends and a new initiative is rolled.
2. It will only attack your opponents. Your dire rat summons are not opponents... if you have them attack random allies your nerfing the spell and the class.
3. You can communicate/direct the actions of your summons as long as you have a way to communicate. This can be done several ways. If you share a common language is the biggest. In the case of low level animal summons you can use a DC 20 Handle Animal check to direct it to attack a specific creature. I you summon said creature directy adjacent to your target and he is the closest enemy then there should be no need for a check.
Great tips from all that have contributed thanks!
I think I will have the master summoner roll once for initiative and have all the summons add their modifier to it. That way it will speed things up but not advantage the summoner too much for taking initiative feats and traits.
Good tips about what actions summons can and should take, I will do my best to allow the summoner to have them act appropriately without getting too much advantage. Though I think even animals are smart enough to get bonuses such as flanking (wolves are the progenitors of that tactic after all), but not so smart as to perform complicated maneuvers.
I would be happy to post my conversion rules, but there is too much to fit in a forum post any suggestions about where a good place to post them that would have easy access from the forums?
Thanks again to everyone that has contributed!
Great tips from all that have contributed thanks!
I think I will have the master summoner roll once for initiative and have all the summons add their modifier to it. That way it will speed things up but not advantage the summoner too much for taking initiative feats and traits.
Good tips about what actions summons can and should take, I will do my best to allow the summoner to have them act appropriately without getting too much advantage. Though I think even animals are smart enough to get bonuses such as flanking (wolves are the progenitors of that tactic after all), but not so smart as to perform complicated maneuvers.
I would be happy to post my conversion rules, but there is too much to fit in a forum post any suggestions about where a good place to post them that would have easy access from the forums?
Thanks again to everyone that has contributed!
Hrmm, I guess you could make a new thread with spoiler tags to reduce the wall o text effect. The custom section would be a cool place to post it and even request feedback if you wanted. Or just provide the disclaimer "already in use, so I probably won't change anything".
Don't forget to have the summoner signify the differences between each summon. If he has three of the same thing on the field they should be marked so everyone knows which is which and HP's don't get mixed up.
Here is a Google Docs link to my house rules for my Eberron game.
https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0BxPafO4bt9QSQmhEODlSMUktZzA/edit?usp=shar ing