So many gestalts, so little time

[Rictras Shard]

I'm going to be playing in a new campaign soon. You've likely guessed from the title that the characters will be gestalt. The characters start at first level, with a 25 point build.

The problem is, there are three different things I want to play, and I can't decide between them. Therefore, I will leave it up to you, the wise denizens of the Paizo forums, to make this life-changing decision and absolve me from the consequences.

Fighter/cleric
Monk/wizard
Wizard/sorceror

Regardless of which class combo I take, my race will be human. Looking forward to hearing your opinions.

[Bearded Ben]

How will you be generating stats?

[Kolokotroni]

I'd recommend against wizard soceror, you are matching up too much of what you do. Fighter cleric might be good, but i'd recommend againsst monk wizard too. Monks are already mad, and making them need a good int too really hurts even with a 25 point buy.

I'd recommend looking at classes tha A have complementary (but different) abilities, and that use similar stats. Monk/cleric for instance is solid, or paladin/bard. I've also seen a pretty wiked rogue wizard once though I am kind of drooling at the thought of a ninja sorc. Hmmm... ninja/sorc-dragondisciple sounds like alot of fun to me now that im thinking about it.

[The Chort]

Well the best synergy of those builds lies with the fighter/cleric, given it's just a regular cleric except really good at combat.

Might I suggest going for Sorcerer/Monk, if you want to do an arcane/monk mix? If you choose the Empyreal bloodline, you'd be able to cast off of wisdom. While 25 point buy is generous, it's not so generous that you don't mind reducing MAD-ness.

Something like:

16 Str
14 Dex
14 Con
9 Int
16 Wis
7 Cha

Then add +2 to Str if you're human or whatnot.

[Hawktitan]

I'd go Pally/Sorc (sorc into dragon disciple).

However, Of the three I'd probably go with Monk/Wizard. I'm not a fan oof Fighter/Cleric (Personal taste. At that point you are a paladin so you should gestalt paladin/X).

Wizard/Sorcerer isn't all that great, but consider Magus/Wizard or Magus/Sorcerer. Eldritch Knight the way Eldritch Knight is meant to be!Get the Broad Study Arcana at level 6.

[Dabbler]

Rictras Shard wrote:

Fighter/cleric

Nice and solid, you don't lose much by being the fighter, but you don't gain much more than a pure cleric would have either.

Rictras Shard wrote:

Monk/wizard

Ugh. Zero synergy here, MAD as hell, and probably either sucking as one of the forms, it's just ultimately just a slightly tougher wizard or a really sucky combo.

Rictras Shard wrote:

Wizard/sorceror

Actually this can work really well. You only do one thing but OMG do you do it well! Spells, spells, and more spells.

What would be good: cleric/monk would be much better in synergy than monk/wizard or fighter/cleric. Both work off Wisdom, and you can use the channel smite and buffs of the cleric to really ramp up the monk to something effective.

[chaoseffect]

If you really wanted to do double caster right I'd say go Empyreal Sorc/Cleric or Sorc/Oracle and once you meet the requirements go Mystic Theurge / Anything.

[Dragonamedrake]

The best options are classes that share similiar stats and that shore up each others weakness. A class that has straight BAB, Good HP and a class that has good utility.

Rictras Shard wrote:

Fighter/cleric

Not bad. You have the Feats combat of a Fighter and the pre combat buffing of the cleric.

Rictras Shard wrote:

Monk/wizard

Terrible. Just Terrible. MAD as stated earlier. Both have weak BAB, so so HP, and neither complement the other.

Rictras Shard wrote:

Wizard/sorceror

Again, not that great. Sure you can cast all day long but it adds nothing a straight Wizard or Sorc can usually pull off. You have low HP, and low BAB.

I would suggest looking at the following.

Fighter/Paladin - You get the self healing and Burst DPS of a Paladin, with the Feats and Steady Combat DPS of a Fighter.

Sorc/Paladin - Shared stat priorities. Healing and Arcane casting. Great saves. Great HP. You cant wear Armor however.

Oracle/Sorc - Now your talking. Shared Stats and Divine and Arcane Casting.

Wizard/Magus - now we are talking. You can cast in Armor. You can Full attack and cast 9th level spells (in the same round) Better BAB, and Better HP then a straight Wizard. And much better casting for your Magus.

[Atarlost]

Fighter/Cleric is indeed your best option of those you've proposed.

I'd strongly recommend the Evangelist archetype here. You only get one domain, but you get inspire courage, which is going to stack with all the divine buffs. The channel loss is a minor deal and you'll get back the armor proficiency loss from the fighter side.

Alternately, stick to a normal cleric and take the Lore Warden fighter for the extra skills and CMB/CMD and plan to wear mithril medium armor. Righteous Might will help with maneuvers.

Monk/Wizard is second best and not very good. Consider Maneuver Master for the Kirin Stlye chain and plan to use it with rays. It's worded such that it only requires you to hit with an attack roll, not that the attack it piggybacks has to do damage or that it need have any effect at all so you can put some no save HP damage as a rider on any of the necromancy rays. Don't underestimate the value of Kirin Path if you're using the normal CR rules: If you have 22 int and max your monster ID knowledges you can auto-hit the Kirin Style DC for anything you should reasonably face. Turtle Style is probably a good second style for the shield bonus that applies to touch attacks.

Sorcerer/Wizard is pretty terrible. Any gestalt with d6 hit dice or a bad fortitude or will save is a bad gestalt. This has two out of three. Even using the sage variant bloodline to eliminate MAD it's a bad combo.

The classes that tend to gestalt best are

Cleric: Domains can be nice. I recommend travel and liberation. Two good saves, good self buffs that stack with most non-clerical buffs, and picking up one of the "required" party roles make this good.

Druid: Both important saves are covered, it's a full divine caster, it synergizes better with the metamagics an arcane caster would want, and wildshape synergizes well with any bonus damage. Since you're a human martial versatility and feral combat training synergize very well with the weapon specialization tree. You also pick up the healer role as a sideline.

Fighter: All hybrid classes like full BAB, weapon training, combat feats and the upgrade to a d10 hit die. Bards and summoners and sorcerers with dragon disciple aspirations love the fortitude save. Any divine class, along with the rogue, magus and arcane duelist bard archetype will enjoy armor training.

Magus: At level 6 take the broad study arcana. That's too high to get good stuff with a multiclass, but for gestalt your caster is now breaking action economy like a magus using wizard or witch or cleric or druid spells. If you pick up enough non-quicken metamagics to inflate shocking grasp into the highest magus slots you can cast you can do this with as little as 11 int if you're relying on sorcerer or bard or a divine class for the majority of your spellcasting. Same saves as a druid as well.

Monk: The flurrying monks are generally only good for light/no armor wisdom casters (which is mostly empyreal sorcerers, some druids, and a few light armor cleric archetypes), but the maneuver master, many styles, or tetori monk can be good for martials since they don't have their main abilities crippled by armor. The martial artist/savage barbarian is a notable exception for potentially ridiculous AC and saves and flurry-pounce. Not a good choice for any non-wisdom caster though.

Paladin: You get the most important saves, charisma to all saves, and lay on hands. Even if charisma isn't a primary stat of the other class involved you can move points from con to charisma as long as it doesn't become a dump and often wisdom as well. Paladin does especially well with charisma casters, but most martials (all except monks in fact) will do well with a paladin friendly stat array when gestalted with paladin. Not so great with non-charisma casters.

Summoner (synthesist): Come to the dark side -- we have cheese. The already broken point buy synthesist makes casters tougher and gives martials access to stuff like pounce and flight and lots of arms and better will saves.

[Urist The Unstoppable]

Barbarian/Scarred Witch Doctor. You use CON to cast, rage raises your Hex DC's, and you have a d12 hit die.

Gunslinger/Sohei Monk, Flurry of Bullets!

Magus/Inquisitor
Ninja/Paladin

[jerrys]

What do you guys think about ranger/inquisitor? I always want to do that but I've never had a gestalt game.

[Rylar]

Ranger inquisitor was what my wife played in our last game. She liked it.

Out of the options given fighter cleric is obviously strongesr. Chatacter concepts are needed to give any other advice.

[mdt]

These threads keep popping up, and I keep pumping my recommendation, but nobody seems to notice. :(

Empyreal Sorcerer/Zen Archer Monk

Empyreal Sorcerer uses Wisdom to cast spells, thus aleviating MAD.
Zen Archer Monk uses Wisdom for AC and Attacks, thus further aleviating MAD.

The empyreal sorcerer can cast spells to self buff the archery, like Bull's Strength (bonus damage), Cat's Grace (Bonus AC, Initiative), Owl's Wisdom (Bonus to-hit, AC), and Gravity Bow and Mage Armor.

The empyreal sorcerer also get's some limited healing ability via class features.

[Rylar]

Mtd- yeah, that would make a great arcane archer type build.

[mdt]

LOL, someone finally noticed. :)

[Byrdology]

Magus/ phalanx soldier FTW! Spell strike with a one handed reach weapon and buckler, all those lovely fighter feats means you are taking extra arcana every odd lvl, and your full BaB means you can burn up your to hit for + to concentration...

Or magus/ white haired witch for the ultimate hexcrafter.

[Mystically Inclined]

Rictras Shard wrote:

Therefore, I will leave it up to you, the wise denizens of the Paizo forums, to make this life-changing decision and absolve me from the consequences.

Excuse me for a moment:

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*Deep Breath*

AAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

Have you considered Sorcerer/Oracle? It would only need three stats (Cha, Dex, Con) so it's not MAD. A dual-cursed oracle of heavens (getting misfortune and awesome display) combined with a sorcerer (picking up color spray and loathsome veil a little later) would be incredibly powerful. You'd have debuffing, blasting caster that could heal with authority. It'd be a mystic theurge with power, and color spray/misfortune revelation combo would make at least half the encounters in the first 8 to 10 levels a cakewalk. I like the depth of your wizard/sorcerer idea, but you haven't seen power until you can throw these two classes together. HP becomes less of a concern when they can't even get close enough to hit you.

Failing that...

I think the fighter/cleric combo is solid and survivable. You have the advantage of a full attack in heavy armor with divine spells in addition. You may want to go druid instead of cleric depending on the size of your party, as the summoning and animal companion would help fill your ranks. The shapeshifting with a full BAB and a fighter's ability to feat things up wouldn't exactly be weak, either.

But I think the most FUN thing to play would be the monk/empyreal sorcerer. That just sounds cool. It might not be the most effective thing on the battlefield, but how many chances do you get to see a monk who has some REAL magical backup? There are several spells that would help offset the monks weaknesses, and the sorcerer has the depth to cast them before every encounter.

So those are my three choices: power, solid dependability (with a scary druid variant), and sheer fun. Choose whichever has the highest priority.

No, screw that. You gave the choice to US. I say: play the sorcerer/oracle. >:-D