With all the Fighter discussions going on, I spent some time pondering how I might make a simple Fighter Fix (without rewriting the entire feat system) that actually achieved the goal of making a flexible, diverse, powerful character, and this is what I came up with.
For a little explanation of the logic that went into this. In earlier editions (before 3E, according to stories I've read on the net about these editions I never played), the Fighter had all good saves. This makes sense, especially given the Fighter's lack of magic with which to challenge Magic.
Furthermore, the existence of Feat Chains is the bane of the Fighter's existence. It requires a Fighter wait to try to actually get to the interesting feats at the end of those wretched chains to get some real options. Therefore, I looked throughout the core rules for a decent example I could use to steal a progression from, lo and behold I found the Wizard. Wizards get two spells known of any level they are able to cast, which contrasts nicely against feats for which the Fighter Qualifies.
Skills: 5+Int per level (1 more than Barbarian, 1 less than Ranger. I don't care that it's non-standard, it works.) Add Perception, Acrobatics, and Stealth to the Fighter's Class Skill list. Furthermore, Fighter Players can choose any two skills they like to be class skills upon taking level 1 in the Fighter class.
Saves: All saves have the good progression.
Weapon Proficiencies: the Fighter gains proficiency in one exotic weapon of his choice with each level of Fighter.
Bonus Feats: at each level, a Fighter gains two bonus feats for which he qualifies, one of these two bonus feats must be a Combat Feat.
Bravery: now also applies to Charms, Compulsions, and Death Effects
Armor Training: grants a dodge bonus equal to the value by which maximum dexterity would have been increased. (Fighters who want to invest in high dex can choose high-dex armors if they wish.)
Weapon Training: works equally on all weapons, increasing at the normal rate as the highest Weapon Training would.
Armor Mastery: stacks with Adamantine Armor
And a change to the Weapon Focus Line, to make them slightly more feat-worthy without combining them.
Weapon Focus/Specialization/Greater Focus/Greater Weapon Specialization are renamed Combat Focus/Specialization/Greater Focus/Greater Combat Specialization, and apply to all combat Attack/Damage rolls made made with any sort of weapon/natural weapon/unarmed strike.
It's quick, its dirty, and it will probably receive cries of 'overpowered,' but I plan to add it to the next campaign I run and see how it plays out.
I was tempted to do something along those lines for the purpose of meeting BAB prerequisites. Sometimes those prerequisites really drag a Fighter player down, you know?
EDIT: granted an increase to effective BAB for purpose of meeting prerequisites is most valuable at the lower levels, so a flat bonus (or equal to Fighter Level, or something along those lines) would probably be better than an effectively increased BAB fraction.
What are you trying to achieve? I have generally found that fighters hit better, and score as much damage as, the barbarian, with more tricks and feats. I think they should have a few more skill points, 4+Int per level is fine though.
I don't actually see this increasing a Fighter's damage by very much, except in occasional circumstances. The vast majority of feats out there don't genuinely increase damage, they let the fighter do something he couldn't do, or make him better at something he could do poorly before.
My purpose here is ensuring that a Fighter has a lot of flexibility to him and that he's not walking around waiting to fail critical saves. (Heck this fighter could actually afford a greater save feat or two if that were important to him.)
(Also, my experience runs somewhat contrary to yours dabbler, in that the Barbarian hits every bit as hard, with more tricks up his sleeve due to Rage Powers.)
I will readily admit this isn't a perfect fix, that wasn't the point. (A perfect fix would fix feats to begin with.) Just threw out something quick and dirty to get a little discussion on and try out next time I run a game (even if its just a one-shot.)
You basically improved every aspect of the fighter instead of a single, small part.
1. The skills don't really matter as much to me. I think number of skills points is more of an RP thing than a strict balancing factor.
2. This makes the fact that the Monk has all good saves less of an advantage for that class and also isn't warranted: a Fighter who has a high will would be an exception (high wisdom and iron will feat), not the standard guy who fights without magic. Fighters can be smart and strongwillef, but they dont need to be and most aren't.
3. This combined with #4 basically gets him 3 feats every single level. Not only is this way overboard, but it would also make him run out of feats that fit his character pretty quickly.
4. As mentioned before, way to many feats.
5. Armor training works better as is. It makes it easier for them to use heavy armors than any other class. A high Dex fighter would be able to use heavier armors without penalty. The end result is almost the same, but the current version is more flavorful.
6. So this is now totally unlimited? What about every single archetype that gives the attack and damage bonuses based on situational factors instead of on specific weapon groups? You would have to change them all.
It won't just receive cries of overpowered, it IS. In an actual game, I've never seen anyone complain about the fighter or seen them fail so badly it would require this much change.
I'll just say one thing in regards to 'running out of feats that fit a character concept.'
I'm of the opinion a Fighter shouldn't NEED to dedicate his entire concept to a very limited combat style as his 'concept.' A Fighter might spend a few levels developing skill in one field, master it as much as his BAB and such allows, then move on to another field. Every once in a while he'd instead spend a level to 'catch up' on areas of expertise where he's since met a requirement.
I'm actually quite interested to see a comparison of this Fighter against a Paladin across varying levels, and think I just might do that tomorrow after I've had some rest.
I'll just say one thing in regards to 'running out of feats that fit a character concept.'
I'm of the opinion a Fighter shouldn't NEED to dedicate his entire concept to a very limited combat style as his 'concept.' A Fighter might spend a few levels developing skill in one field, master it as much as his BAB and such allows, then move on to another field. Every once in a while he'd instead spend a level to 'catch up' on areas of expertise where he's since met a requirement.
I'm actually quite interested to see a comparison of this Fighter against a Paladin across varying levels, and think I just might do that tomorrow after I've had some rest.
Im not just talking about conpleting a single feat chain. By 5th level, he has proficiency with 5 exotic weapons, 10 bonus feats from his class, and 3 from being a normal character. Thats a total of 18 feats. A 20th level character of any other class will have 10 by 20th level.
It's a lot of feats. But feats in general suck compared to class abilities and spells, so I refuse to make a judgement call on it until I make actual comparison of characters rather than feat totals.
My target goal here is rough parity to the Paladin with perhaps a 25% margin in either direction), assuming experienced players are building the characters.
1: Skills per level works, Acrobatics and Perception works, but I'd probably not add Stealth.
2: Saves. Ehhhh. I don't think they need all 3 on the good progression. It makes sense for Monk, who master themselves. I could see Fighter getting good Fort and Reflex. Not will though.
3: Exotic Weapons. I'd probably couple this with the bonus feat instead of 1 every level. Not that it's overpowered or anything, just seems like almost too much.
4: Bonus Feats. I think this is way too much unless you limit it some other way. Maybe give them a bonus Teamwork Feat in addition to a combat feat every few levels. Definitely wouldn't give them that many though. Human Fighter would have 4 feats at 1st level, 6 by level 2.
5: Bravery looks fine, but I'd probably nix the Death effects part.
6: Armor Training. Part of me likes this, part of me doesn't. The part that likes it looks at the other ability scores that become a somewhat viable choice, although at early levels the fighter will suffer from lack of Dex. Fighters with higher dex end up with an easier way to benefit from this class feature. The part of me that doesn't like it... was just convinced to like it. Yeah, I'd say this is a good one.
7: Weapon Training. Do you mean it works equally on all weapon groups chosen, or EVERY weapon in the game? If the former, I'm okay with this. If the latter, I think it's too much.
8: Weapon Focus. I'd probably have this apply to fighter weapon groups instead of singular weapons. I wouldn't have it apply to every weapon in the game with a single feat though.
Interesting stuff though. I might try some of it in my own games.
I would give fighters a feat per level, keep armor training and weapons training the same, give the fighter the option to choose his two strong saves and one weak one and give him 4 skills per level.
I would replace bravery with stubbornness which would give the same saves bonuses vs compulsions and fear effects.
I would also create some more powerful fighter only feats probably along the lines of KOTOR feats so you could have a critical strike feats would give a boost to either the crit range or multiplier at a cost of a -5 penalty to hit and would stack with everything, a flurry feat (rapid shot for melee) and an enhanced power attack (1:3 for one handed, 1:4 for two) all of which couldn't be used with each other. Perhaps even go as far as creating an unmounted mounted skirmisher feat (full attack and a single movement) with a pre-requisite of 14 ranks in acrobatics.
Dont you think a 'fix' for the fighter might need to include more then just piling on more of what they already have? As you said, chances are if a fighter wants a feat that adds damage he will already have it. They extra feats give them more feats. Sure some feats are cool, but they in the end are just feats. And THAT is the problem with the fighter (besides the skill boost which i agree with but im not sure how i feel about a fighter being able to have spellcraft and knowledge arcana as a class skill at level 1, but thats another issue entirely).
The fighters issue isnt that they dont have enough feats or that they arent good enough with weapons, its about giving them more robust options in dealing with challenges. For that you need something like the tome of battle manuevers (IE something that approaches spells in usefullness and flexibility).
Actually the Trail Blazer solution would be pretty cool make fighter about attacks of opportunity. Give fighters two good saves one bad (your choice) give them 4 skill points. Then give them a bonus AoP's a bonus +D6 damage and a +1 to combat maneuvers during AoP's that scales every odd level.
By level 19 you will have 11 attacks of opportunity as well as 10d6 on those attacks and 10 bonus to combat maneuvers during those attacks of opportunity.
Actually the Trail Blazer solution would be pretty cool make fighter about attacks of opportunity. Give fighters two good saves one bad (your choice) give them 4 skill points. Then give them a bonus AoP's a bonus +D6 damage and a +1 to combat maneuvers during AoP's that scales every odd level.
By level 19 you will have 11 attacks of opportunity as well as 10d6 on those attacks and 10 bonus to combat maneuvers during those attacks of opportunity.
But that is a very specific kind of warrior, not the sort of generalist/specialist-by-feats the vanilla Fighter is supposed to represent.
Skills: 5+Int per level (1 more than Barbarian, 1 less than Ranger. I don't care that it's non-standard, it works.) Add Perception, Acrobatics, and Stealth to the Fighter's Class Skill list. Furthermore, Fighter Players can choose any two skills they like to be class skills upon taking level 1 in the Fighter class.
Saves: All saves have the good progression.
Weapon Proficiencies: the Fighter gains proficiency in one exotic weapon of his choice with each level of Fighter.
Bonus Feats: at each level, a Fighter gains two bonus feats for which he qualifies, one of these two bonus feats must be a Combat Feat.
Bravery: now also applies to Charms, Compulsions, and Death Effects
Armor Training: grants a dodge bonus equal to the value by which maximum dexterity would have been increased. (Fighters who want to invest in high dex can choose high-dex armors if they wish.)
Weapon Training: works equally on...
Actually the Trail Blazer solution would be pretty cool make fighter about attacks of opportunity. Give fighters two good saves one bad (your choice) give them 4 skill points. Then give them a bonus AoP's a bonus +D6 damage and a +1 to combat maneuvers during AoP's that scales every odd level.
By level 19 you will have 11 attacks of opportunity as well as 10d6 on those attacks and 10 bonus to combat maneuvers during those attacks of opportunity.
But that is a very specific kind of warrior, not the sort of generalist/specialist-by-feats the vanilla Fighter is supposed to represent.
Not really what it does is allow a fighter to tank better (hold territory as well as the CMB bonus to drag, re position, trip etc) do more damage on his turn without having to pounce (extra attacks of opportunity and damage). It helps every fighter, archers like the synergy with snap-shot, reach fighter love it, even two hand and sword and shield fighter like the extra damage especially when being surrounded.
Skills: 5+Int per level (1 more than Barbarian, 1 less than Ranger. I don't care that it's non-standard, it works.) Add Perception, Acrobatics, and Stealth to the Fighter's Class Skill list. Furthermore, Fighter Players can choose any two skills they like to be class skills upon taking level 1 in the Fighter class.
I've made a similar change to Fighters in my game. 4+Int skill ranks and they have Perception, Heal and 2 other skills of the player's choices as class skills. Works fine.
5 skill points feel out of place. Stealth is not a iconic Fighter skill, IMHO. I added Perceotion because A- Every warrior should have this! and B- Everyone would take it anyway, so choosing 2 skills would basically be Perception +1. Heal is the same, excbet in this case, B is "Noone would take it".
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Saves: All saves have the good progression.
I have no problem with that. At least Fort and Ref should be good, but having all good saves is okay, IMO. It's not like Fighters have any real save-boosting ability.
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Weapon Proficiencies: the Fighter gains proficiency in one exotic weapon of his choice with each level of Fighter.
Although I like this, I think it's a bit too much and benefits dippers more than dedicated Fighters. There are not so many good exotic weapons, anyway. I'd change it to whenever he gets a new Weapon Training, he gets proficiency with an Exotic Weapon that belongs to that Weapon group. I'd also let them swap Tower Shield proficiency for Improved Unarmed Strike or Exotic Weapon Proficiency at 1st level.
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Bonus Feats: at each level, a Fighter gains two bonus feats for which he qualifies, one of these two bonus feats must be a Combat Feat.
Defintely too much. And doesn't do much for Fighters. They already have enough feats. It also benefits dippers more than dedicated Fighters.
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Bravery: now also applies to Charms, Compulsions, and Death Effects
I made the Charm/Compulsion change in my games too. Didn't think about Death Effects, that might be a bit much, but nothing game-breaking or OP. Unnecessary if they get Good Will Save progression, though.
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Armor Training: grants a dodge bonus equal to the value by which maximum dexterity would have been increased. (Fighters who want to invest in high dex can choose high-dex armors if they wish.)
Personally, I like Armor Training, but I do think it could be better. However, this change seems a bit unnecessary, as the good will save progressions will already make Fighter much better at surviving encounters.
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Weapon Training: Weapon Training: works equally on all weapons, increasing at the normal rate as the highest Weapon Training would.
You mean like every selected Weapon Group has the same bonus as the 1st one chosen? If so, I made this change as well in my games. It not only makes the ability better, but also easier to keep track of.
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Armor Mastery: stacks with Adamantine Armor
Unnecessary. And too much of an exception to the rules, IMO.
kyrt-ryder wrote:
And a change to the Weapon Focus Line, to make them slightly more feat-worthy without combining them.
Weapon Focus/Specialization/Greater Focus/Greater Weapon Specialization are renamed Combat Focus/Specialization/Greater Focus/Greater Combat Specialization, and apply to all combat Attack/Damage rolls made made with any sort of weapon/natural weapon/unarmed strike.
I don't think this would be OP, I just don't like it. I'd rather see Fighters getting the Martial Versatility/Mastery line of feats for free, as a class feature.
IMO, Weapon Focus could be something like this:
Weapon Focus: You get a +1 to attack rolls made with a weapon of your choice, this bonus increases to +2 when you reach BAB +8. And +3 at BAB +16. You add double this bonus to damage rolls made with that weapon if you have the Weapon Training class feature for the weapon group it belongs to.
This way everyone benefits more from WF, but Fighters get Weapon Spec. for free.
Making those unnecessarily long feat chains into BAB-based auto-scaling feats goes a long way to boost Fighters. (Every martial class, actually, but specially Fighters!)
Thanks for the feedback guys. Rather than address people individually, I'll address concerns.
@Saves: according to various sources (some of them on these boards), in early editions Fighter's had all good saves. It didn't hurt them then, and it won't hurt them as a class now.
Some might say Will doesn't 'make sense' for a Fighter, but I challenge that notion. When's the last time you've seen a Soldier protagonist in fiction who was weak willed? Be it Antiquity, Medieval, or Modern, soldiers (barring a few exceptions or the faceless mooks) are pretty much ALWAYS strong willed. And I like it that way.
@Skills: yeah, Stealth was unnecessary, but in my mind the Fighter class would include those Commandos. Not every Fighter would take Stealth, just like not every Monk or Ranger takes Stealth, but it makes sense to me that Stealth would be a class skill.
@Weapon Proficiencies: this part was completely unnecessary. Honest truth, I felt it was cool flavor with limited mechanical value. Thinking back on it, this could make for an awesome Alternate Favored Class Bonus rather than class feature, that keeps the casual dipper out of it.
Turning the Tower Shield Proficiency into either Exotic Proficiency Feat of Choice or Improved Unarmed Strike sounds like a good idea though. I can't remember the last time I've actually seen a Fighter use a Tower Shield.
@Bonus Feats: have you guys looked at the PRD lately? There are TONS of feats a character concept could want but never be able to squeeze in. The more you read the more you want and realize you'll never have. Heck there are a lot of feats that are reasonably effective but can't be justified due to 'must haves.'
I can't guarantee whether or not this is fine until I build my comparisons, but honestly I see this 'Quick and Dirty Fix' being far less broken than it might at first appear.
@Armor Training: my problem with the core Armor Training adjusting an Armor's Max Dex is that either a Fighter invests in a whole bunch of dexterity, or its a wasted class feature. I'd rather not waste Class Features for certain builds if I can help it.
@Armor Mastery: why on earth should the class automatically take a dump on Adamantine Armor that way? That would be like saying the core Armor Training benefit's increase to maximum dexterity doesn't stack with Mithral.
@Combat Focus: It's a controversial choice. I myself prefer the concept of combining them or rewriting Weapon Focus into a simple feat that scales. But this seemed like the quicker route, and is one to reduce 'alternate attack patterns' one would need to put on a character sheet.
Alright, now that that's done, I'm starting to build out those comparisons. 5th level is the first level I'll compare at. For the sake of argument, I will restrict myself to Paizo published material on d20pfsrd.com, 20 point buy.
@Skills: yeah, Stealth was unnecessary, but in my mind the Fighter class would include those Commandos. Not every Fighter would take Stealth, just like not every Monk or Ranger takes Stealth, but it makes sense to me that Stealth would be a class skill.
That's true, but I think the "choose 2 skills to be class skills" aalready covers this. Perception and, IMO, Heal are universal skills for pretty much every fighter ever.
Also I don't like having false choices. Those where you always choose the same option because it's so glaringly better (or worse) than every other option. Perception and Heal kinda fall in this category.
Stealth, not so much...
I might want a sneaky Fighter (Disable Device and Stealth), but I might also want a inspiring leader (Diplomacy and Sense Motive) or a tracking specialist (Stealth and Knowledge(Nature)), or a cruzader-type Fighter who knows about a lot about fighting demons and undead (Knowledge(Religion) and Knowledge(Planes)).
These are real choices. This is fun. Stealth is cool and all, but it's not much better/universally useful (like Perception) or worse/situational (like Heal) than other useful skills, so making it a choice increases the fun in building characters. Besides, having Stealth as a default skill steps a bit too much on the toes of Rogues, Ninjas and Rangers.
kyrt-ryder wrote:
@Bonus Feats: have you guys looked at the PRD lately? There are TONS of feats a character concept could want but never be able to squeeze in. The more you read the more you want and realize you'll never have. Heck there are a lot of feats that are reasonably effective but can't be justified due to 'must haves.'
I agree with this as well, I just think getting 3x as many feats as everyone else is overkill, specially considering the other changes (more skill points and all good saves, which are changes I mostly agree with)
I think the best way to solve this problem is simply turning feat chains such as TWF, Vital Strike, Improved [Combat Maneuver] and Weapon Focus into scaling feats, that became better and better depending on BAB/Character Level. Kinda like Power Attack and Defensive Combat Training.
Of course, this is just my 2 cents. Make of it what you will.
Level 5: Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Improved Initiative
Exotic Weapon: Flying Talon
Feedback is still very much appreciated. Does this strike you as being overpowered? Or is it just flexible? Did I choose the wrong kind of concept to test this on? (It's one I've always wanted to do, but never sat down and built out.)
Oh I completely agree, fixing feats is the ideal way to go. This is just a quicky for fun and to try out the next game I run.
I've completed a 5th level Swashbuckler, pasting it in the Spoiler below. I haven't done the Paladin for comparison yet.
** spoiler omitted **
Feedback is still very much appreciated. Does this strike you as being overpowered? Or is it just flexible? Did I choose the wrong kind of concept to test this on? (It's one I've always wanted to do, but never sat down and built out.)
Eh... OP.. As in full spell-casting OP? No. It doesn't even seen like a particullary strong build, IMO, but it's a bit too much too soon, A reasonably optimized Fighter will probably leap ahead of CR appropriate monsters in a few levels.
Another idea is removing dumb/usless prerequisites, such as Int 13 and Combat Expertise from the Improved/Greater Maneuver feats, or Dodge and Mobility from Whirlwind Attack. Maybe give Fighter an ability to ignore some prerequisites.
(In a Fighter homebrew I made long ago, I allowed Fighters to use Con instead of Int/Wis for Combat Feats; Kirthfinder had a better idea: Fighters add their Fighter levels to attributes for the purpose of qualifying to feats.)
I honestly think 3 feats per level is too much, not game-breaking, but still too much. Feats are not the problem with Fighters. Saves and out-of-combat utility are. And these you already addressed with skill points and all-good saves (which also saves them a few feats and traits, such as Iron Will)
You and I are totally on the same wavelength regarding the superior value to fixing feats.
That being said, I think I'm going to go back to bed and sleep on it while I wait to see if someone else has anything else to say before I build the Paladin for comparison.
If anybody feels like trying a 5th level build with this Fighter for some concept, feel free. I really enjoyed it compared to how much I always hate myself for the choices I have to make when trying to build a normal Fighter.
With this one there were still feats I wanted (and qualified for even) but couldn't get yet, but there was enough that I could get that it didn't bother me so much.
Just to chime in a bit of 1e history, since it was mentioned in the starting post: 1st level fighters had the worst saves of anybody. Their saves got better faster than anybody so they were pretty good by 10th level or so, but low level fighters were terrible at saves, often needing 15-17 on the die to save vs anything at level 1.
I think your variant is very overpowered - a non-optimized normal PF fighter can easily dish out 70-100 damage a round at level 10. 3-4 feats a level is an extreme adjustment. (Although honestly, a free EWP each level helps at level 1 and by level 3 or so just becomes some silly decision you have to make while leveling. I can't imagine picking 15 EWPs for a 15th level fighter.)
Just to chime in a bit of 1e history, since it was mentioned in the starting post: 1st level fighters had the worst saves of anybody. Their saves got better faster than anybody so they were pretty good by 10th level or so, but low level fighters were terrible at saves, often needing 15-17 on the die to save vs anything at level 1.
I think your variant is very overpowered - a non-optimized normal PF fighter can easily dish out 70-100 damage a round at level 10. 3-4 feats a level is an extreme adjustment. (Although honestly, a free EWP each level helps at level 1 and by level 3 or so just becomes some silly decision you have to make while leveling. I can't imagine picking 15 EWPs for a 15th level fighter.)
I can't see what's overpowered about it, assuming you get all of the save feats that is six of them, but in the end you still end up with only a +2 to all saves which is less than what a paladin gets at second level.
Say the Fighter spends dozens of feats so that they are good at all of the maneuvers that wouldn't be overpowered either that would just mean fighters get more options they will still have less options than a caster.
Say the fighter gets all the archery feats as well as bundle of other non-archery feats with his extra perks, the archery perks still don't get better it just means the fighter gets to do other things.
The thing that bugs me most about this is the exotic weapon proficiencies. Basically, you're forcing them unto the fighter. What about the guy that just wants to use a longsword? For him, it's a wasted class feature.
Also, are you planning on revising other classes? If so, no problems--assuming other classes get this sort of treatment. If not, this is too much.
That said, I think your real problem is with feats not being powerful enough. A more elegant "fix" for the class, then, would be to re-haul feats. I see you did something in this regard with "Combat Focus / Specialization". Not bad--that's thinking outside the box! I'd be much more interested in seeing a list of revised feats than I am at the quick 'n dirty solution presented above. Why not take a shot? XD
Awwww, I thought you had a build you were putting up Wind Chime.
Regardless, it's good to see I'm not the only one who finds this arrangement appealing.
@Ryric: this isn't about damage. A normal PF Fighter is unlikely to deal much less damage than one of these, even one focused on damage won't push very far beyond the norm. Unless you're excluding time spent charmed/compelled from the PF Fighter's damage, in which case you'd be right this is a big damage increase.
@Detect Magic: Yeah, that is the real problem, and it's a BIG problem. There are probably over a thousand feats published just by Paizo alone, and I like to incorporate 3rd party material as well.
Unfortunately, that Paladin build and comparison is going to have to wait, something's drawing me away for the time being. Please feel free to continue to discuss this guys, I'm always happy to see what other people think and how such a discourse develops.
1. Paladins are supposed to have better saves than the other classes, as are monks. It something that defines what the class can and can't do well. Saying the fighter should have the same saves as the High Save Class sounds like you think fighters should be great at everything, which is what all of these changes do (more skills means it's easier to max out UMD, making him better at magic, too)
2. The "fighter protagonists in literature are always strong willed" argument is invalidated when you ask the following questions:
--How often in literature do protagonists die in the middle of the story? Never, because that would make it the end of the story (if the story continues after he dies, that means there is more than one protagonist, or a new one takes his place). However, that does happen often in Pathfinder (exact likelihood depending on the GM). Protagonists in literature can be great in lots of areas because they're The Star of the Show. Pathfinder does not have a Star of the Show. They have a group of characters that have different strengths and weaknesses, and none of them are more important than the other. You can't measure everything the fighter has against other classes that are focused in that area and claim he's too weak as a result.
--Aren't Barbarians, like Conan, in literature also strong willed? But the Barbarian class has soem of the worst saves of them all. Should he also have all good saves because heroes in literature that look like barbarians also have good reflexes and strong wills? Streetwise Rogue-like character in fiction are also pretty tough too, should they get good Fort saves?
--The fearlessness of fighters that lends to that strong will you see in fiction is expressed, minorly, in Bravery as it is. Extending bravery to cover charm, compulsion, and death effects (which, by the way, have nothing to do with bravery) is practically giving him good Will saves already since the only thing left is illusions to be weaker against.
There's also the fact that the Fighter class is also used for NPCs and villains, who are typically not as powerful as the protagonists in fiction, ultimately.
I think part of the conflict we're having, Big Lemon, is one of gaming philosophies.
I don't think any one player should be 'the star of the show,' but by the same token, they shouldn't be a burden to their team the way the PF Fighter is.
Barbarians already get a bonus to will saves while raging. Conan didn't really strike me as a Barbarian though, he was more of a Fighter/Rogue than Barbarian in my mind.
I didn't feel like renaming Bravery at the time, so I lumped Death Effects in with it under an inappropriate name. I could have come up with a better name, or a DM could decide to pull Death Effects out of it if they saw fit.
As far as NPCs and Villains go, do you know who else is used for NPC's and villains? Every class, even Paladins on a rare occasion if the story calls for it.
Based on what I've seen so far of my 'Fighter Fix', I'm actually not finding any real problems with it. There's a lot of feats the player needs to manage, and I believe I will be moving the exotic weapon proficiencies into an alternate favored class bonus, but aside from that it seems pretty good.
I think part of the conflict we're having, Big Lemon, is one of gaming philosophies.
I don't think any one player should be 'the star of the show,' but by the same token, they shouldn't be a burden to their team the way the PF Fighter is.
Barbarians already get a bonus to will saves while raging. Conan didn't really strike me as a Barbarian though, he was more of a Fighter/Rogue than Barbarian in my mind.
I didn't feel like renaming Bravery at the time, so I lumped Death Effects in with it under an inappropriate name. I could have come up with a better name, or a DM could decide to pull Death Effects out of it if they saw fit.
As far as NPCs and Villains go, do you know who else is used for NPC's and villains? Every class, even Paladins on a rare occasion if the story calls for it.
Based on what I've seen so far of my 'Fighter Fix', I'm actually not finding any real problems with it. There's a lot of feats the player needs to manage, and I believe I will be moving the exotic weapon proficiencies into an alternate favored class bonus, but aside from that it seems pretty good.
My problem is that I have never seen this fighter-is-a-burden issue in practice. Granted, I have never run or played in a game past 12th level, and it's possible this mainly comes into play after that point, but I've never seen an issue with how the Fighter works as-is.
He is outshined by all the other classes outside of combat. That, frankly, is how I think it's supposed to be He is the combat-focused, non-magic class. Ranger, Paladins, and Barbarians can potentially deal more damage than him at certain points, but they have a limited amount of time they can do so per-day and/or a limit on whom they can deal that amount of damage to. The Fighter has neither.
I agree with the idea of combining feat chains. That is I think the only problem for Fighters. A few more skill points, maybe, but that I see affected roleplaying more than combat, and trying to balance roleplaying is pointless in my opinion.
I think part of the conflict we're having, Big Lemon, is one of gaming philosophies.
I don't think any one player should be 'the star of the show,' but by the same token, they shouldn't be a burden to their team the way the PF Fighter is.
Barbarians already get a bonus to will saves while raging. Conan didn't really strike me as a Barbarian though, he was more of a Fighter/Rogue than Barbarian in my mind.
I didn't feel like renaming Bravery at the time, so I lumped Death Effects in with it under an inappropriate name. I could have come up with a better name, or a DM could decide to pull Death Effects out of it if they saw fit.
As far as NPCs and Villains go, do you know who else is used for NPC's and villains? Every class, even Paladins on a rare occasion if the story calls for it.
Based on what I've seen so far of my 'Fighter Fix', I'm actually not finding any real problems with it. There's a lot of feats the player needs to manage, and I believe I will be moving the exotic weapon proficiencies into an alternate favored class bonus, but aside from that it seems pretty good.
Is Fighter your favoriate class?
If so you can't be making class changes just because yopu find it underpowered.
Also if you want to play an unfocused underpowered class play monk.
Thematically I love the concept of Fighters, and I do love the class. However I've never actually played a straight-classed Fighter. Usually I'm either a Full Caster, some multi-classed mess (possibly a Gish), or a straight-classed Paladin/Ranger.
As a GM I can make changes to a class for whatever reasons I justify to myself, be that because its underpowered, overpowered, boring, uninspired, whatever. In this case it's because I find Fighters typically have enough *power* but not enough *options* or *resilience.*
That's coming from me as a player, an obsessive analyst, a GM, and a semi-regular of these boards.
Thematically I love the concept of Fighters, and I do love the class. However I've never actually played a straight-classed Fighter. Usually I'm either a Full Caster, some multi-classed mess (possibly a Gish), or a straight-classed Paladin/Ranger.
As a GM I can make changes to a class for whatever reasons I justify to myself, be that because its underpowered, overpowered, boring, uninspired, whatever. In this case it's because I find Fighters typically have enough *power* but not enough *options* or *resilience.*
That's coming from me as a player, an obsessive analyst, a GM, and a semi-regular of these boards.
Try playing a monk as is, and i bet you, you will have a different tone about the fighter.
Heh, I've played enough 3.5 monks to understand what you're getting at. Monk is one of the classes I would adjust in concert with this. (Or hell, I could break the monk down into a few feats and this Fighter class could subsume the Monk depending on how the player wants to build it.)
Thematically I love the concept of Fighters, and I do love the class. However I've never actually played a straight-classed Fighter. Usually I'm either a Full Caster, some multi-classed mess (possibly a Gish), or a straight-classed Paladin/Ranger.
As a GM I can make changes to a class for whatever reasons I justify to myself, be that because its underpowered, overpowered, boring, uninspired, whatever. In this case it's because I find Fighters typically have enough *power* but not enough *options* or *resilience.*
That's coming from me as a player, an obsessive analyst, a GM, and a semi-regular of these boards.
Try playing a monk as is, and i bet you, you will have a different tone about the fighter.
I didn't have nay trouble playing a zen archer quiqon monk, you get high saves, reasonable damage, tonnes of skills and High buffed AC. Actually as a rule for anything other than damage it blows the fighter out of the water.
I made a monk build if you want to look at it, but i didn't add as much as you added in your fighter build. The thing is your not taking anything from the fighter your just throwing more stuff at him to try and fix the problems you think you see.
That's the whole point of this fix. I don't want to neuter the fighter in an effort to make him work. I said that, in my opinion, he has enough power but not enough options/resilience.
That means I don't want to take away power to make him have insufficient power, but rather that I want to increase his options and resilience.
If you want to post up a homebrew monk fix, you should probably open another thread for it. Feel free to link to it here though.
saves: fortitude and will. I feel that reflex is the odd fit for ancient, classical, medieval, renaissance, and early modern soldiers. They mostly emphasized discipline and endurance and not so much reflexes.
more bonus feats: At third level and every second level thereafter the fighter may choose as a bonus feat one feat with "improved" or "greater" in the name which he qualifies for. This is a compromise between not completely breaking the balance with other martials and not sucking because feats suck. Fixing feat chains directly would be better since that would remediate the caster-martial disparity , but this will do as an emergency patch for the fighter itself.
bravery: Also adds to intimidate DCs. At level 6 the panicked condition is treated as the frightened condition. At level 14 all fear effects more severe than shaken are treated as the shaken condition. This needs some boosting to still be worth while with a good will save, but not so much it disturbs balance between archetypes. This is my first guess for a correct value.
Some other ideas:
broad training: At 2rd level and every 4 levels thereafter the fighter may select a feat with weapon focus as a prerequisite. He receives the benefit of this feat for all weapons with which he has weapon focus. This replaces Bravery and archetypes that replace Bravery replace this instead. This eases up the stress on builds like sword and board or switch hitter, though the change to feats may already do this.
disciplined training: At 6th level and every 4 levels thereafter select one stat you have not previously selected with disciplined training. It receives a +2 inherant bonus. This is a MAD patch suitable to any low tier MAD class.
versatile training: Your weapon training, armor training, bravery, and any archetype abilities that replace them progress by 1 fighter level per 2 non-fighter levels you possess. You cannot benefit from this ability for more non-fighter levels than you have fighter levels. In line with the notion of fighter as a modular class it suffers less from dipping or entering prestige classes than other classes. There's nothing to get from it until fighter 4 so it's not much for non-fighters dipping fighter.
Of these broad training is the one I like the most for the fighter. Disciplined training solves problems for lots of classes, but the place I'd most like to see it is the monk. Versatile training is just a wild idea. It might fit better as one of those multiclass mitigation feats like boon companion or shaping focus.
I have already, i just wanted to show you a proper way to do a build, not just throw more stuff at him in an attempt to fix a problem that doesnt exist.
No offense wintersrage, but I think I'm entitled to perceive and address problems as I see them, whether or not you feel that they exist.
Like I said I'm actually pretty happy with this, as a GM, and I'm going to be inserting it into the next campaign I run. Hopefully at least one player bites.
Indeed it is a lot of free stuff, but it comes with the opportunity cost of not playing one of the other awesome classes.
Like a Wizard, or Witch, or a Sorcerer, or a Druid, or a Cleric, or an Oracle, or a Magus, or a Summoner, or a Bard, or a Paladin. (Ranger probably needs a small leg up to stand among that group+this Fighter, I'll be looking into that before starting such a campaign.)
(One stat point ended up wasted, but I'm not sure what to do about that. Maybe the DM would let this pally pass that lost point to the party Monk or Rogue or something xD. Bugs the hell out of me to dump stats that low, but those are the breaks of a laddered point buy.)
Smite (+3 to hit, +3 deflection to AC, +5 damage per hit) twice per day
Divine Grace (+3 to all saves)
Lay on Hands (2d6+4 healing) 5 times per day
Aura of Courage (Immunity to Fear, Allies within 10 feet get +4 Morale vs Fear)
Divine Health (Immunity to Diseases)
Mercy Cure Fatigue
Channel Energy blow two uses of Lay on Hands to Channel Energy like a cleric
Spells two first level Paladin Spells per day, Caster level 2, access to wands and divine scrolls that hold spells on the Paladin List.
Divine Weapon Bond: Once per day for two minutes add +1 to hit and damage to a weapon the Paladin holds (including possibly making a non-magical weapon count as magical.) As an ironic, overly strict reading of the stacking wording of the ability, a Masterworked Mundane weapon under the effect of Divine Bond would become +2 to hit, +1 damage.
That's also a lot of crap being handed out, although much of it's situational (but then, so too are feats. Very few feats are really functioning all the time.) Not gonna lie, I fought with myself a ton on the ability score arrangement and feat choices, but this comes back to feats needing fixing.
What that Paladin DOES do, though, is save a lot of money on things the Fighter would be buying. From what I can tell, after accounting for gear things will even out more than they appear to be now.
One thing I did find that bugged the hell out of me, is the Paladin has access to two or three (I don't recall which and don't feel like double checking) different spells that could let him goad a foe into fighting him, but they rely on the foe failing a save against his pitiful DC. Casters are throwing out DC 13+Stat at this level, with far more casting oriented ability scores, while the Paladin is stuck with DC 11+Stat. In this case, a first level Pally spell only has a DC of 14, which nothing at this level is going to reliably fail. Logistically speaking, unless a Paladin spell is intended to target multiple mooks at the same time (or has an un-thematically extreme effect of course), it really shouldn't offer a saving throw.
All in all, I'd call this experiment a success. I gave myself a 25% margin of power creep over a well-built Paladin, and I feel the Fighter fix sits somewhere around the edge of that margin.
Should be totally playable, even in the same party together.
That being said, there are a lot of things I'm not happy with overall, and if I have the time to do a more comprehensive system adjustment before the next campaign I run, then this Fighter Fix may not see play.
4 Skills Per Level add in Acrobatics and Perception. Open up the Weapon Specific Feats, such as Weapon Specialization or Exotic Weapon Proficiency, but add in a special addition to where the Fighter gets the Feats effects to an entire Weapon Group not a single Weapon.
I honestly think this a a way of him justifying his favorite class getting all these buffs, im the dm so i can do what i want, just doesn't cut it. If i was a player in his game and he put those changes into effect i would quit.
Roll Climb, Jump and Swim in Athletics and making it a class skill for fighters (among other classes.)
Bravery changed to "Disciplined". Bonus applies to Fear, Charm, Compulsion effects, as well as to the DC of Intimidate checks and Bluff checks to Feint or Distract the Fighter.
Armor Training replaced with Defensive Training. At 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th level the Fighter can choose between Armor Training or Dodge Training. Armor training works per CRB. Dodge Training grants a +1 Dodge bonus to AC per tier.
Master of Arms ability at 8th level. Allows them apply weapon-specific feats (Weapon Focus/Specialization, Improved Critical, etc) to the entire weapon group that weapon belongs to.
The only real power boost is the improvement to Bravery. Everything else is just mostly giving them a bit more flexibility.
I didn't have nay trouble playing a zen archer quiqon monk, you get high saves, reasonable damage, tonnes of skills and High buffed AC. Actually as a rule for anything other than damage it blows the fighter out of the water.
The zen archer and the qinggong are the two best monk archetypes. They manage to not suck, but they are hardly awe-inspiring.
My only implemented fix so far is to Bravery: a straightforward +1 per level, and Intimidate is a Fear effect. As it stands, the big brave fighter has a worse save against Fear than a Good Will class at any level below 18th, and the paladin utterly blows his bravery out of the water at 3rd level. I also like Atarlost's limits on the effect of fear.
I'd probably also give them:
* 4 skill points including Acrobatics
* Armour Mastery gives the ability to sleep in armour (medium at 3rd, heavy at 7th) as per Endurance
* Kirthfinder's idea: Fighters add their Fighter levels to attributes for the purpose of qualifying for feats. Love this idea.
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