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Here is the situation.
Fire is spreading over bushes, The oracle walks forward to create water to put them out. He is surrounded and almost dropped by the bad guys.
Sleep is then cast and all the bad guys fail their save.
Here is where the question comes into play.
Is it an evil action to kill (via coup de gras) the helpless "bad guys" who almost killed your party member?
Is it an evil action to kill (via coup de gras) the helpless "bad guys" who almost killed your party member if the person doing it is neutral and follows an evil deity?
Is it an evil action to kill (via coup de gras) the helpless "bad guys" who almost killed your party member if the person doing it is neutral and follows an evil deity and says a prayer to that god under his breath (making it a sacrifice in a sense)?
Is it an evil action to kill (via coup de gras) the helpless "bad guys" who almost killed your party member if the person doing it is neutral and follows an evil deity and says a prayer to that god under his breath (making it a sacrifice in a sense), but is in no way a divine caster and getting none of their abilities from the god?
Thanks in advance.
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So just so you aware, an Evil act is not dependent on the PCs alignment or the Alignment of the Deity they follow.
An Evil act is solely based on the situation and the believe of the GM running the game at that time based on the acts of the PCs and the events happening at that time.
Defining an Evil act is a perfect example of "Expect Table variation".
A coup de grâce can be defined as an evil act is some situation and others not, it is up to your GM.
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Dragnmoon has the right of it. Evil acts are a lot more about your actions then things like alignments and deities.
Finishing off a helpless foe in the heat of battle? In the spirit of the game and not usually an evil act in most groups.
Capturing someone, torturing them for information and the slitting their throat? Probably kind of evil or very evil in most groups.
If your worried about it at all the best thing to do if you've got an opponent helpless is to tie them up and haul them to the nearest constable to face justice.
One of my previous DMs said all CdG was evil and the boards chimed in much the same way Morgan and Dragnmoon did "Not always, but sometimes".
Your evil god may cause problems though. Under the description of evil it says:
Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.
I take this to mean it is cool to do it for Groetus.
all is fair in love and war. people die in battle, especially if you expect them to gain consciousness and continue attacking you :)
but in all honesty it is the situation that matters, and that will change constantly. i don't think you can ever say that cdg is always evil, or it is always not evil.
Coup-de-grace, literally translated, has a meaning that can be interpreted as Mercy Killing. Instead of leaving your enemy to suffer a slow, painful death, you put him out of his misery. So to me : not evil.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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"Helpless" doesn't mean "innocent". If I remove an enemy from the field of battle, and then kill him, that's no worse than killing him while he is still trying to stick his acid-dripping poison tentacles in my face.
Incidentaly, Sitri -- Groetus is not an evil deity.
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No.
Look at the entire paladin class. Put whatever spin on it you want, but in the end a lot of its job is to go out and put a few feet of steel into the things that are so evil that they, and everyone else, are much improved by it. In D&D execution of people that well and truly deserve it is not an evil act. For the purposes of good it doesn't matter if the person has been tried by a king and beheaded or the judgement of someone who was actually there: if you have it coming then you have it coming.
These guys had it coming.
A wildfire can kill hundreds of people. They were either reckless enough to let it go, or more likely started the thing in the first place to attract people. They can see that someone is being a good Samaritan and attempting to put it out... and they try to kill them. As long as you're not torturing them its a just execution. Whether its a legal one probably depends on how far out in the boonies you are.
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Let's just pretend for a second that killing a helpless person is automatically evil, even if they deserve it.
So what does a Good-aligned PC do? The answer you'll usually get is "tie him up and hand him over to the authorities".
Okay, so we do that. He gets a trial, gets convicted, and the state puts him to death. Now we're right back to "killing a helpless person who deserved it". If it was evil before then it's still evil now; all we've accomplished is to make it lawful evil. Good news for the monk, I suppose, but what about all the Good-aligned folks?
Yeah, sorry, but whoever thinks that an opponent's helplessness changes anything about killing him just hasn't thought things through.
IMO
Is it an evil action to kill (via coup de gras) the helpless "bad guys" who almost killed your party member?
-When they wake up they are going to try and murder them, definitely not evil. Just because the players got the leg up in the fight doesn't mean its wrong to finish it.
Is it an evil action to kill (via coup de gras) the helpless "bad guys" who almost killed your party member if the person doing it is neutral and follows an evil deity?
-Their alignment doesn't matter, the intention is the only thing that matters. It might be unlawful if they were told to capture only, but they were also in a dangerous situation where the flames would have woken the bad guys up anyways as soon as they took 1 point of fire damage. Sleep might have failed if they fell on top of hot embers, in my opinion, nonlethal damage is still damage. So it was imperative to dispatch the bad guys before they woke up.
Is it an evil action to kill (via coup de gras) the helpless "bad guys" who almost killed your party member if the person doing it is neutral and follows an evil deity and says a prayer to that god under his breath (making it a sacrifice in a sense)?
-The intention wasn't to track down the badguys to sacrifice them. Its a side effect of a player's religion. Now if he's casting a spell to syphon the soul into the abyss, that's another story but saying glory to your diety and thanks for keeping you alive isn't evil.
Is it an evil action to kill (via coup de gras) the helpless "bad guys" who almost killed your party member if the person doing it is neutral and follows an evil deity and says a prayer to that god under his breath (making it a sacrifice in a sense), but is in no way a divine caster and getting none of their abilities from the god?
-see above.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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In Pathfinder, no, CDG is not evil.
IRL, the instant an enemy combatant ceases to be a combatant, it's a war crime to kill him.
In my buddy's Jade Regent game, my LG samurai executed a captured ninja assassin that had been sent to kill the party. If my samurai had been captured trying to kill the ninja's master, the best he could expect would be a clean death. Therefore, a clean death was all the mercy he could extend to the assassin.
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There was a giant thread not too long ago about modern day moral interpretations being applied to the fantasy setting of Golarion that, although it often devolved into a flame war, was insightful at times.
Step back and consider things through the eyes of your character, rather than using your philosophical background as a player. Golarion is a world where, if you die due to an accident, one god earns your soul, but if you die crusading against "evil", another does instead.
Check out the last panel on THIS comic for what I think is a great example.
Regarding the game that this took place in, the act of sacrificing a helpless, sentient, intelligent, human, to an evil deity, was the evil act. Not the coup de grace itself.
In the right situation it could be considered a mercy.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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Let's just pretend for a second that killing a helpless person is automatically evil, even if they deserve it.
So what does a Good-aligned PC do? The answer you'll usually get is "tie him up and hand him over to the authorities".
Okay, so we do that. He gets a trial, gets convicted, and the state puts him to death. Now we're right back to "killing a helpless person who deserved it". If it was evil before then it's still evil now; all we've accomplished is to make it lawful evil. Good news for the monk, I suppose, but what about all the Good-aligned folks?
Yeah, sorry, but whoever thinks that an opponent's helplessness changes anything about killing him just hasn't thought things through.
Well, I think that the difference is that there is some sort of fact-finding process that goes into this legal system. If you're killing somebody in the field, you might later find out that they were totally innocent. Mistakes can be made, and it's best to minimize those mistakes. A great example of this is the old movie, The Oxbow Incident, in which...
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Netopalis, what you describe is the difference between lawful and chaotic; still has nothing to do with whether it's evil or not. Lawful is all about taking the time and going through procedures to determine the appropriate course of action, even if the answer appears to be obvious. The avoidance of "mistakes in the field" is exactly what a lawful person would cite as a reason that law is superior to chaos. Meanwhile, a chaotic person would come back with the claim that sticking to procedure when the answer is painfully obvious is going to too often be too slow, and a waste of time and resources, and a chance for people to weasel out of what's coming to them, etc.
It's still a matter of law versus chaos, not good versus evil.
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But the act of coup de gras'ing a helpless, sentient, intelligent, human, is okay. Even though in the end, they are still dead and i didnt go out of my way to do it. Thus its the intention that matters.
You did go out of your way. You made a statement, loud and clear, with gestures, something to the extent of "I make this sacrifice in your name, Zon-Kuthon." That's the difference. Had you just killed him, by whatever means, and then uttered a quiet prayer in thanks to your deity, it would have been different. Even followers of Sarenrae do that.
In the world of Golarion, that person's soul now belongs to Zon-Kuthon. Making a sacrifice is more than just killing the person. It has more far-reaching consequences. That's why it's illegal in Absalom, and considered an evil act.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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But the act of coup de gras'ing a helpless, sentient, intelligent, human, is okay. Even though in the end, they are still dead and i didnt go out of my way to do it. Thus its the intention that matters.You did go out of your way. You made a statement, loud and clear, with gestures, something to the extent of "I make this sacrifice in your name, Zon-Kuthon." That's the difference. Had you just killed him, by whatever means, and then uttered a quiet prayer in thanks to your deity, it would have been different. Even followers of Sarenrae do that.
In the world of Golarion, that person's soul now belongs to Zon-Kuthon. Making a sacrifice is more than just killing the person. It has more far-reaching consequences. That's why it's illegal in Absalom, and considered an evil act.
When he announced he was doing it, did the GM cut in with "That would be considered an evil act; are you sure you want to proceed with that?"
If not, then he doesn't suffer any organized play consequences for an evil act, even if he was eating a baby at the time.
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But the act of coup de gras'ing a helpless, sentient, intelligent, human, is okay. Even though in the end, they are still dead and i didnt go out of my way to do it. Thus its the intention that matters.You did go out of your way. You made a statement, loud and clear, with gestures, something to the extent of "I make this sacrifice in your name, Zon-Kuthon." That's the difference. Had you just killed him, by whatever means, and then uttered a quiet prayer in thanks to your deity, it would have been different. Even followers of Sarenrae do that.
In the world of Golarion, that person's soul now belongs to Zon-Kuthon. Making a sacrifice is more than just killing the person. It has more far-reaching consequences. That's why it's illegal in Absalom, and considered an evil act.
When he announced he was doing it, did the GM cut in with "That would be considered an evil act; are you sure you want to proceed with that?"
If not, then he doesn't suffer any organized play consequences for an evil act, even if he was eating a baby at the time.
I was the GM, and as I'd never encountered anything like that before, I said I'd ask an authority later, and we proceeded with the game. Afterwards it was explained that, yes, that would be an evil act, consider this your warning to not do it again. Then I found this thread.
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I believe the words "you should post on the forums" were used. I get that "sacrifice" is considered evil. I was trying to guage at what point the evilness kicked in. Aka, am i allowed to coup de gras someone? Even though it could be seen as a sacrifice. As long as i dont use the word sacrifice is it okay? I just "kill" them?
This again?
What is an evil act is and always will be a YMMV topic. It is judge dependent and you just have to accept that different judges have different feelings on what is and in't an evil act. It is their responsibility to interpret what is and isn't evil. If you are about to do something the judge considers evil, they should tell you before you finish the action (or rewind the play if they tell you after the fact). Thus you can then make a decision to go through with the act or not with full knowledge that the judge may hold it against you.
As an aside, for the love of all that's holy, would someone at Paizo correct the spelling on the thread title?
I chuckled
I have a Neutral Good character who sacrifices things to her ancestors all the time. And by "things" I generally mean small fluffy animals, but I don't see why she wouldn't dedicate a coup de grace on a clearly evil enemy as the same.
Humans have been sacrificing things to appease their gods and insure good harvests/healing/whatever for a long time. Even human sacrifices to gods that probably would not be considered evil.
Evil often has little to do with the action itself, and much more to do with context.
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As often happens, I agree with Jiggy...and, as rarely happens, I also agree with Chris.
The moment the character decided that the killing was for the glory/will/purpose of an evil deity and not for purposes of combat/the mission/protecting the party is the moment it went from not-evil to evil.
Also, as Chris said - Coup de grace, no "s" :P
If you know your French, "coup de gras" is so much more disturbing...
If you know your French, "coup de gras" is so much more disturbing...
Snort!
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denying me bacon is still an evil act.
An act, usually cannot be evil. just like a sword is not (usually) evil.
Using coup de grace on a sleeping child, likely evil.
Using said trick on a man that killed your father, probably not?
Intent is the key. and society, but not getting into that.
The bigger question: Is it honourable. That answer is not so subtle...
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Kill 'em? Must be an Andoran in the party.
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Why kill 'em, when they're worth more alive? Drag them back to town, and turn them in - if you're in some civilized area they'll be sold into bondage and you pocket the reward. Well worth the trouble. And who knows, in time maybe they'll reform and learn to be lawful citizens - or if not, maybe they'll provide some useful service.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Paladins, on the other hand, are required to stick with this silly concept called "honor". They have to go above and beyond in order to represent a higher standard, so killing these bandits instead of bringing them in could very well violate their edicts.
Exactly which edict would that be violating, if I may ask?
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features...
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Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
I think we can agree that it doesn't cause them to cease to be lawful good, and we established that it's not an evil act.
You said yourself that there's no legitimate authority in the situation, and the paladin is clearly helping those in need and punishing those who harm or threaten innocents.
The only thing left is "act with honor", and its examples about lying, cheating, and poison. It's obviously not any of those three, so I guess it's honor's "and so forth" that's being violated?
I'm curious to hear the thought process by which you arrived at the conclusion that the act in question is 'dishonorable' when it simultaneously fulfills at least two tenets of the paladin's code. Perhaps there are other sources, or references to specific acts in some published adventures?
slaying a helpless opponent? 2 outta 3 mighta been a fun song, but I don't think a paladin should be happy with that.
There will never be an official list of evil acts for PFS.
Once you codify something like that, you can then powergame it.
That is a bad thing.
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That's because evil tends to like gloating and monologuing.
<nod>
-j
"Helpless" doesn't mean "innocent". If I remove an enemy from the field of battle, and then kill him, that's no worse than killing him while he is still trying to stick his acid-dripping poison tentacles in my face.
Incidentaly, Sitri -- Groetus is not an evil deity.
Exactly my point. I offered him up as an outlier that may be useful to the OP.