EDIT: and you have to give a good reason of why the monk is the only one dealing with the lions. Cause a single slow form the wizard could end the fight.
Well the rest of the party can break ranks and begin fighting the mooks. I said this. But if that's the case then the bad guys are winning. 3.5 Loyalist said that monks excel at smashing mooks. That was their "strength". That's apparently why you would have them in the party since - by his own statement - the monk wasn't good at dealing with the BBEG. So either the monk is exceptionally good at dealing with mooks and allows the other PCs to do their jobs better or he isn't and he doesn't.
It's not complicated. Either he's a flat tire that needs to be changed or he gets you where you need to go.
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If it makes you feel better I can come up with an encounter 3.5L.
@Nicos: 3.5L is only being asked to prove the claim he made.
That is how we do things here. If I say _____ can do Y, then I should expect to be called out on it. 3.5L knows this. Just like someone said a barbarian could not match a monk for saves so I built one that could.
Even when myself and Ashiel disagree we have both been asked to provide evidence. It is part for the course.
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10 cyclops will make almost any character splattered paste.
I've never played a level 13 character (melee or otherwise) that could take 10 cyclops, or seen one at the gaming table that could.
Well if you're a 13th level wizard you can pretty much destroy them, but that's beside the point. They are CR 5 enemies. They are trash beneath your feet barring a nasty special ability. A 13th level party should rock this encounter, and if you notice I didn't say you had to take on all 10 cyclops at once. But 2-4 at a time is a pretty good bet for a mook-thrasher.
To present cyclops as "mooks" is funny to me. They are not mooks, they are elite infantry monsters. I reject the idea that a single pc should be able to take 10 cyclops and a boss. That is where you get a large veteran party, because it is going to be tough (each cyclops packs a punch and are no slouch when it comes to hp).Oh no, they are definitely mooks at this level. They are further down on the totem pole than kobolds are to 3rd level PCs. An ogre wasn't a mook at 3rd level. It's a mook at 8th.
Too desperate to win an argument Ashiel. This was about what the monk can do, what their abilities and possibilities are, not some quality by mob of cyclops rating.The cyclops encounter really seems to hurt your feelings. It's just one of the very large number of CR enemies that are suitable as mooks for a CR 10 leader. Of course, apparently 90% of the Bestiary is apparently counter-monk by your gauges.
Yes Ashiel, we are fully aware of your wizard's tactic. First thing he does is cast fly and get out of their reach. That's not really the wizard that gets the credit but fly. I could make an aasimar monk with the Angelic Wings, Flyby Attack, and Death from Above feats to pick them off one by one.
Let's see your wizard make all those saves vs the basilisks.
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I also want to point out that going strictly by CR is a mistake. All creatures of the same CR are not equal. The CR system has always been a bit wonky because it all depends on th party layout. You take a bunch of ranged and flying PCs, they would make mince meat out of dire lions but if you had all melee then the lions would he more of a challenge do to their pounce ability.
Lastly, I just want to point out that displaying a list of monsters to fight is a skewed argument because of course you are going to build your PC to have the beat advantange because you know what you're facing. A lot of gaming, at least in our games, is not really knowing what you are going to fight, that's one of the things that keep prepared spellcasters in check. Sure you may get lucky and prepare some spells that help but you can also end up with a lot of spells that are essentially useless.
If it makes you feel better I can come up with an encounter 3.5L.
@Nicos: 3.5L is only being asked to prove the claim he made.
That is how we do things here. If I say _____ can do Y, then I should expect to be called out on it. 3.5L knows this. Just like someone said a barbarian could not match a monk for saves so I built one that could.
Even when myself and Ashiel disagree we have both been asked to provide evidence. It is part for the course.
Saying make a level 13 monk is 1-2 hours of work. There is the planning, the research, the writing. I am not working for Ashiel. He is trying to make me work hard and spend as long as he spends on his tiresome posts.
He wants a monk, I don't want to make him a monk (I don't feel like making a high level pf monk atm). I've pointed to the class, its abilities and the class table, that is enough for me. If it is declared to be useless or weak, I am not interested in disproving it by fighting hard against a bias and wasting my time because Ashiel won't back down.
I agree with Nicos, highly ludicrous. And why does the monk have to kill dire lions in a few rounds? Is he magically on a timer now? What if he grapples the big bad while the rest of the party deals with the lions? Or pairs up with a reach melee char, keeping them off him by sticking close and using a flurry upon the rushing attackers. Crane monk and barb, also a good combo. High save monk paired with a ninja tear casters a new one; but a single monk against all these, it is a waste of time.
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"Monks are really good at mowing through mooks."
"Okay, here are some mooks, can your monk mow through them?"
"What? Don't be unreasonable. Why should my monk need to be able to mow through mooks? You're a jerk and make no sense."
Thanks for sharing.
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Lastly, I just want to point out that displaying a list of monsters to fight is a skewed argument because of course you are going to build your PC to have the beat advantange because you know what you're facing.
I'm kinda confused. I mean, yes, you're correct. But giving free reign for what enemies the monk could fight would be highly skewed in the monk's favor. And seeing as the whole scenario was set up as a challenge to see if a monk could efficiently dispatch a bunch of mooks, the fact that it is about as favorable for the monk as it can be and there still seems to be little intent on meeting the challenge looks kind of... bad.
I suppose while I'm posting:
3.5 said something like "monks are great against mooks". And statement that I agree needs to be proven.
however, he never say te monk can solo the encounter.
if ashiel want to see how a moonk do against 10 CR 5 mooks taht is fine. But he can not pretend that the mooks are messing with the whole party while at the same time the party does nothing about them.
If the monk is supposed to be good at clearing encounters, then that is all that needs to be proven though. How much they are messing with the party, whether or not they are protecting the BBEG is all circumstantial.
It sounds like you're way overcomplicating this, really.
Simple version: How quickly can a monk clear mooks?
If you want the wizard to drop a slow, or the fighter to help clean them up, or to say that they're all sitting still to eat flurries, then you're just making the scenario more complex than it needs to be. Again, the basic point is "How fast can the monk kill them when they are being reasonable and don't line up to be exploded by full attacks."
It's a pretty straightforward question, as best I can tell.
10 cyclops will make almost any character splattered paste.
I've never played a level 13 character (melee or otherwise) that could take 10 cyclops, or seen one at the gaming table that could.
Well if you're a 13th level wizard you can pretty much destroy them, but that's beside the point. They are CR 5 enemies. They are trash beneath your feet barring a nasty special ability. A 13th level party should rock this encounter, and if you notice I didn't say you had to take on all 10 cyclops at once. But 2-4 at a time is a pretty good bet for a mook-thrasher.
To present cyclops as "mooks" is funny to me. They are not mooks, they are elite infantry monsters. I reject the idea that a single pc should be able to take 10 cyclops and a boss. That is where you get a large veteran party, because it is going to be tough (each cyclops packs a punch and are no slouch when it comes to hp).Oh no, they are definitely mooks at this level. They are further down on the totem pole than kobolds are to 3rd level PCs. An ogre wasn't a mook at 3rd level. It's a mook at 8th.
Too desperate to win an argument Ashiel. This was about what the monk can do, what their abilities and possibilities are, not some quality by mob of cyclops rating.The cyclops encounter really seems to hurt your feelings. It's just one of the very large number of CR enemies that are suitable as mooks for a CR 10 leader. Of course, apparently 90% of the Bestiary is apparently counter-monk by your gauges.Yes Ashiel, we are fully aware of your wizard's tactic. First thing he does is cast fly and get out of their reach. That's not really the wizard that gets the credit but fly. I could make an aasimar monk with the Angelic Wings, Flyby Attack, and Death from Above feats to pick them off one by one.
Let's see your wizard make all those saves vs the basilisks.
Yep, 20 saves, each round. Don't fail. That class can't survive save or die spam is a very strange argument. 1s happen to all. It does not reflect badly on the class to fail some in a lot of 20 saves.
@ Roberta: Wow, that was like ASAP.
@ 3.5 Loyalist: Seriously, though? That... just seems like such a really terrible cop-out. If you want to make a claim, you should be ready to back it up or at least discuss it. Simply blowing off any counterarguments is just... :/
"Monks are really good at mowing through mooks."
"Okay, here are some mooks, can your monk mow through them?"
"What? Don't be unreasonable. Why should my monk need to be able to mow through mooks? You're a jerk and make no sense."
Thanks for sharing.
I don't play much in the way of level 13 games, but I already explained I don't consider a flock of petrifying basilisks, ten charging cyclops, a pack of winter wolves or a cadre of fire elementals to be mooks. These are serious challenges in my games, elites, mighty bodyguards, not mooks.
In my games I have about five tiers: non-coms, mooks, tough monsters or elites, great monsters and the finest opponents, mighty villains. Trolls likewise I would put in tough monsters and elites, and I would include ogres in there (since they can kill you for a number of levels if you are unlucky).
When I say mooks, I am meaning low level human warriors (the most common being bandits as you encounter in kingmaker), a lot of goblins (mmm flurry, as seen in rise of the runelords), orcs or hobs with a level or two, standard mook drow from second darkness (they are pretty soft and spammed hard in the early books), level 1-2 merc fighters with some skills and feats but not yet specialisation, a range of wild animals and beasts like boar (with dire animals potentially being tough monsters, but there are some weaker dire animals out there like the dire goat), low level rogue footpads (lev 1-2), grimlocks, medium spiders, and the list goes on and on in regards to potential mooks.
I trust you now get my gist. Cr 5s are not mooks in my book, but I don't go past 15th level.
@ Roberta: Wow, that was like ASAP.
@ 3.5 Loyalist: Seriously, though? That... just seems like such a really terrible cop-out. If you want to make a claim, you should be ready to back it up or at least discuss it. Simply blowing off any counterarguments is just... :/
Yeah, but I have a real problem with Ashiel's approach. He will just spam ludicrous match ups (take these 10 cyclops or the monk is shit, you are fighting wraiths but your monk doesn't have the tool they, or any melee need to defeat them, the basilisks force 20 saves). So why bother engaging him? I'd much rather talk to others, like you for instance, and I just responded to Roberta.
Well to match up a lone wizard against 10 cyclops, if they are not all in the area of effect, or if wiz loses initiative that wiz is going to get batted around really bad up close. There is some great spell sauce out there, but being surrounded by pancake makers, even low Cr ones, can be bad news for a variety of classes.
I don't underestimate Cr 4-6, but as I said, not much high level stuff over here.
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Yeah, but I have a real problem with Ashiel's approach. He will just spam ludicrous match ups (take these 10 cyclops or the monk is s&%+, you are fighting wraiths but your monk doesn't have the tool they, or any melee need to defeat them, the basilisks force 20 saves). So why bother engaging him? I'd much rather talk to others, like you for instance, and I just responded to Roberta.
Well, I just thought it was kind of funny when I posted and there was not only a post from you, but a reply to it already as well.
Anyway though, Ashiel literally gave you 18 out of 24 CR 5 creatures (or 21/27 if you count all four elementals separately) from Bestiary 1, to take your pick. And your response was, and still is, that it's terribly biased against the monk, and that you're not going make any attempt at it.
And like Thomas Long said up there, enemies become mooks pretty quickly. CR -8 is quite far into mook territory.
"Monks are really good at mowing through mooks."
"Okay, here are some mooks, can your monk mow through them?"
"What? Don't be unreasonable. Why should my monk need to be able to mow through mooks? You're a jerk and make no sense."
Thanks for sharing.
I don't play much in the way of level 13 games, but I already explained I don't consider a flock of petrifying basilisks, ten charging cyclops, a pack of winter wolves or a cadre of fire elementals to be mooks. These are serious challenges in my games, elites, mighty bodyguards, not mooks.
In my games I have about five tiers: non-coms, mooks, tough monsters or elites, great monsters and the finest opponents, mighty villains. Trolls likewise I would put in tough monsters and elites, and I would include ogres in there (since they can kill you for a number of levels if you are unlucky).
When I say mooks, I am meaning low level human warriors (the most common being bandits as you encounter in kingmaker), a lot of goblins (mmm flurry, as seen in rise of the runelords), orcs or hobs with a level or two, standard mook drow from second darkness (they are pretty soft and spammed hard in the early books), level 1-2 merc fighters with some skills and feats but not yet specialisation, a range of wild animals and beasts like boar (with dire animals potentially being tough monsters, but there are some weaker dire animals out there like the dire goat), low level rogue footpads (lev 1-2), grimlocks, medium spiders, and the list goes on and on in regards to potential mooks.
I trust you now get my gist. Cr 5s are not mooks in my book, but I don't go past 15th level.
I'm playing Kingmaker, and it's been a long time since we ran into low level anything.
Are you expecting to run into hundreds of 1st level warriors? Because I'll give them all a bow, and roll for 20s.
Well I have my level 8 Monk I could put up but really good rolled stats, some minor houserules, and a 3 level dip into Brawler might skew things a smidge.
When I say mooks, I am meaning low level human warriors (the most common being bandits as you encounter in kingmaker), a lot of goblins (mmm flurry, as seen in rise of the runelords), orcs or hobs with a level or two, standard mook drow from second darkness (they are pretty soft and spammed hard in the early books), level 1-2 merc fighters with some skills and feats but not yet specialisation, a range of wild animals and beasts like boar (with dire animals potentially being tough monsters, but there are some weaker dire animals out there like the dire goat), low level rogue footpads (lev 1-2), grimlocks, medium spiders, and the list goes on and on in regards to potential mooks.
I think that if you are going to defend slaying mooks as the monk's niche in combat then you should be prepared for someone to parse this as mooks who are relevant. If the mooks are so low level as to be (to borrow a phrase) animate scenery, then why is it relevant that the monk can handle them?
I remember this time when our 12th level party was fighting CR-10 or so mooks - troglodytes - as part of a large battle with some kopru. They pretty much got ignored as far as their offensive capability went. They had no ability to hinder the party in any significant way, and any turn spent battling them was a turn spent just beating on helpless enemies to be awesome rather than tactically contributing to the fight. There were no difficulties at all involved in walking right through their AoOs to get to the kopru - I recall my fighter provoking a half dozen AoOs with a single move just to rub it in (there were less threatened paths available). Once the kopru were dead we just let the rest of them - anyone who hadn't gotten in the way of an AoE or been unlucky enough to be in melee when a fighter finished off a real enemy and still had some of his full attack left - run away, because they were so little of a factor in anything that it wasn't worth the bother of spending more game time killing them.
That seems to me to be the type of mook you want your monk to fight, and I'm not sure why that matters.
I guess this is a roundabout way to say that being asked to demonstrate your point against mooks who are at least marginally combat relevant rather than mere irrelevant scenery does not seem to me to be an unreasonable request. And that CR 5 mooks for a tenth level monk sounds about right for that, and CR 1 goblin warriors or whatever sounds like it should fall more in the scenery class.
I don't play much in the way of level 13 games
How can you make claims about what happens in level 13 games, then? Such as, "Monks are useful at level 13?"
, but I already explained I don't consider a flock of petrifying basilisks, ten charging cyclops, a pack of winter wolves or a cadre of fire elementals to be mooks. These are serious challenges in my games, elites, mighty bodyguards, not mooks.
Can you suggest what mooks would be for a level 13 character then?
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I don't play much in the way of level 13 gamesHow can you make claims about what happens in level 13 games, then? Such as, "Monks are useful at level 13?"
, but I already explained I don't consider a flock of petrifying basilisks, ten charging cyclops, a pack of winter wolves or a cadre of fire elementals to be mooks. These are serious challenges in my games, elites, mighty bodyguards, not mooks.Can you suggest what mooks would be for a level 13 character then?
160 first level warriors, all armed with a long bow and long sword. Just how many arrows can the monk deflect?
You can keep trying, I am not interested in arguing. That would be a giant waste of time.
Which reminds me of the recent fighter thread.
*watches the beat upon the monk race from the side-lines*
I don't play much in the way of level 13 gamesHow can you make claims about what happens in level 13 games, then? Such as, "Monks are useful at level 13?"
, but I already explained I don't consider a flock of petrifying basilisks, ten charging cyclops, a pack of winter wolves or a cadre of fire elementals to be mooks. These are serious challenges in my games, elites, mighty bodyguards, not mooks.Can you suggest what mooks would be for a level 13 character then?
If I am to give out indulgences, I would rather be paid, lol.
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"Monks are fine at high levels because they can murder mooks. I have no idea what a mook is but I'm pretty sure monks can murder them."
If it makes you feel better I can come up with an encounter 3.5L.
@Nicos: 3.5L is only being asked to prove the claim he made.
That is how we do things here. If I say _____ can do Y, then I should expect to be called out on it. 3.5L knows this. Just like someone said a barbarian could not match a monk for saves so I built one that could.
Even when myself and Ashiel disagree we have both been asked to provide evidence. It is part for the course.
But ashiel is making an strawman.
3.5 said something like "monks are great against mooks". And statement that I agree needs to be proven.
however, he never say te monk can solo the encounter.
if ashiel want to see how a moonk do against 10 CR 5 mooks taht is fine. But he can not pretend that the mooks are messing with the whole party while at the same time the party does nothing about them.
Sorry about the late reply. I have a question then. How many of the mooks should the monk be able to take out, and in what amount of time? Ashiel was only asking the monk take out the mooks since that is supposedly what it is good at.
If it makes you feel better I can come up with an encounter 3.5L.
@Nicos: 3.5L is only being asked to prove the claim he made.
That is how we do things here. If I say _____ can do Y, then I should expect to be called out on it. 3.5L knows this. Just like someone said a barbarian could not match a monk for saves so I built one that could.
Even when myself and Ashiel disagree we have both been asked to provide evidence. It is part for the course.
Saying make a level 13 monk is 1-2 hours of work. There is the planning, the research, the writing. I am not working for Ashiel. He is trying to make me work hard and spend as long as he spends on his tiresome posts.
He wants a monk, I don't want to make him a monk (I don't feel like making a high level pf monk atm). I've pointed to the class, its abilities and the class table, that is enough for me. If it is declared to be useless or weak, I am not interested in disproving it by fighting hard against a bias and wasting my time because Ashiel won't back down.
I agree with Nicos, highly ludicrous. And why does the monk have to kill dire lions in a few rounds? Is he magically on a timer now? What if he grapples the big bad while the rest of the party deals with the lions? Or pairs up with a reach melee char, keeping them off him by sticking close and using a flurry upon the rushing attackers. Crane monk and barb, also a good combo. High save monk paired with a ninja tear casters a new one; but a single monk against all these, it is a waste of time.
There are high level monk builds on the boards already. One of them is in a thread with a barbarian build I made. At worst you would have to modify it.
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Ashiel, I confess to being somewhat confused as to how you are handling wraiths. Wraiths don't have spring attack, so they can't move both before and after an attack.
A wraith has blind-fighting, which helps him strike at stuff he can't see. But if he's inside the floor, he can't tell what square the party is in. Furthermore, he can move before or after his attack, which means he's going to take a full attack at least every other round.
A wraith, by the rules, would have to: Poke his head out, see what square the party is in, lose full cover, eat a full attack.
Next round, make one attack, Pull back into full cover, and be free to move...but so is the party, who could simply move out of their area. They can't attack out of the floor without exposing themselves, and they can't withdraw back into it without giving up their ability to track the party.
Blind-fighting only helps if the area is dark. The way it interacts with the incorporeality rules doesn't mean they can strike blind from a wall, because they still have to expose themselves to do so, and they don't get to unexpose themselves at the end of the round.
And how is that +10 BAB Warrior using Improved Vital Strike? :)
S0...can I take two levels of Warrior instead of one level of fighter when levelling my PC? Because I would totally do that.
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As for the whole monks vs mooks post...I think it's pretty obvious to everyone that the monk cannot do what Loyalist was claiming. The monk can get multiple attacks if full attacking for free(i.e. not needing to buy TWF), yes...but a 'mook' can be significantly tougher then a level 1-2 person, which seems to be his terminology.
It looks like he thinks a 'mook' is something he can auto one-hit, and that is dumb enough to try a human wave attack, i.e. walk into his full attack.
From that standpoint, sure, the monk can run up a tally, because he gets lots of attacks. By that standpoint, a fighter with Whirlwind Attack, Combat Patrol and a Reach weapon is a god.
But for what the rest of us consider mooks, the monk isn't going to be able to do that.
Loyalist, Ashiel put a LOT of effort into accomodating you, and you basically dissed him because you were wrong. I think you should apologize, and either redefine what you believed the monk capable of, or do what Ashiel did and look at the cold, hard numbers and realize, concepts aside, the monk cannot do what you claimed.
Simply look at the numbers.
You have to kill 10 enemies averaging 55 hp in ten rounds. The only way you can do that is to get a full attack every single round. The enemy is in no way obligated to give you a full attack. As soon as you are forced to move and single attack, you can't do enough damage to make the ten round limit.
In addition, you have to SURVIVE those ten rounds. From making saves, to surviving the insight blows of the cyclops auto-hitting you, to absorbing 4 full pounce attacks from lions every other round as they charge, maul, and bound away in series, that could be problematic.
If we're talking hundreds of mooks, then the nat 20's will eventually kill you all by themselves, especially if they have any brains and use reach or missile weapons.
So, while I agree the romantic concept of the monk supports you, the numbers in the game do not. You should acknowledge and move on.
===Aelryinth
Sorry about the late reply. I have a question then. How many of the mooks should the monk be able to take out, and in what amount of time? Ashiel was only asking the monk take out the mooks since that is supposedly what it is good at.If it makes you feel better I can come up with an encounter 3.5L.
@Nicos: 3.5L is only being asked to prove the claim he made.
That is how we do things here. If I say _____ can do Y, then I should expect to be called out on it. 3.5L knows this. Just like someone said a barbarian could not match a monk for saves so I built one that could.
Even when myself and Ashiel disagree we have both been asked to provide evidence. It is part for the course.
But ashiel is making an strawman.
3.5 said something like "monks are great against mooks". And statement that I agree needs to be proven.
however, he never say te monk can solo the encounter.
if ashiel want to see how a moonk do against 10 CR 5 mooks taht is fine. But he can not pretend that the mooks are messing with the whole party while at the same time the party does nothing about them.
Ah, that's a different question.
If they are good at it, they should be able to clear them all. Mages are good at AoE, and I think we can safely say that a wizard could probably clear them all in ten rounds.
A fighter with a reach weapon has a good chance of doing it, because they have much higher DPR. With a crit, they can kill them with single attacks, which helps tons. If they are archers and can fire in melee, this is not a struggle.
I think we can safely say the monk SHOULD be able to kill all of them, but likely CANNOT due to class limitations.
==Aelryinth
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S0...can I take two levels of Warrior instead of one level of fighter when levelling my PC? Because I would totally do that.
Aside from maybe one level of fighter for proficiencies, it would usually be better to take two levels of commoner than one level of fighter, even if the extra levels didn't let you put extra skill points into the same skill.
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No offense dude, but those aren't mooks from maybe 6th level on. They're trash tier, not mooks. If a single AOE spell kills pretty much everything, thats not a mook, thats trash.
Anything that's 3 CR or more lower than your level is pretty much a mook. Unless grouped in very large numbers, they won't even resemble a threat, and a lot of the time not even then. Seriously, 4 level 8's could take on an army of goblins and not really have a hard time of it.
Oh and at level 15, CR 5 shouldn't even be a mook. It should be trash tier. Nearly any class can solo a monster of CR= level.
Wait what AoE deals 65 hp damage?
Because those cyclops aren't going down to a 10d6 fireball.|
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No offense dude, but those aren't mooks from maybe 6th level on. They're trash tier, not mooks. If a single AOE spell kills pretty much everything, thats not a mook, thats trash.
Anything that's 3 CR or more lower than your level is pretty much a mook. Unless grouped in very large numbers, they won't even resemble a threat, and a lot of the time not even then. Seriously, 4 level 8's could take on an army of goblins and not really have a hard time of it.
Oh and at level 15, CR 5 shouldn't even be a mook. It should be trash tier. Nearly any class can solo a monster of CR= level.
Wait what AoE deals 65 hp damage?
Because those cyclops aren't going down to a 10d6 fireball.
And.
What makes anyone think they are going to stand together like bowling pins, waiting for a nice ripe AoE?
Ashiel, I confess to being somewhat confused as to how you are handling wraiths. Wraiths don't have spring attack, so they can't move both before and after an attack.
They don't have to. Their racial ability allows them to sit in the floor with total cover and when they attack they have cover and require you to be readied to hit them. They are actually the one creature that probably won't bother to run from most anyone in the party because they cannot be full-attacked.
A wraith has blind-fighting, which helps him strike at stuff he can't see. But if he's inside the floor, he can't tell what square the party is in. Furthermore, he can move before or after his attack, which means he's going to take a full attack at least every other round.
Except for the fact they have lifesense. I linked all the monsters in my original post for a reason, which was to avoid needless Q&As like this. Can't people please just read the monster entry that was both bolded and linked in the post?
A wraith, by the rules, would have to: Poke his head out, see what square the party is in, lose full cover, eat a full attack.
It'll suffice to say that it won't because I'm running it as the incorporeal effect says to run it.
And how is that +10 BAB Warrior using Improved Vital Strike? :)
He's not. I noted in parenthasis he's using power attack (with a 15 Str and a +11 BAB, that gives him a +10 to hit). Read the notes.
S0...can I take two levels of Warrior instead of one level of fighter when levelling my PC? Because I would totally do that.
Of course you would! But that's just the way CR scales because it keeps the NPCs on par with their Bestiary brethren.
No offense dude, but those aren't mooks from maybe 6th level on. They're trash tier, not mooks. If a single AOE spell kills pretty much everything, thats not a mook, thats trash.
Anything that's 3 CR or more lower than your level is pretty much a mook. Unless grouped in very large numbers, they won't even resemble a threat, and a lot of the time not even then. Seriously, 4 level 8's could take on an army of goblins and not really have a hard time of it.
Oh and at level 15, CR 5 shouldn't even be a mook. It should be trash tier. Nearly any class can solo a monster of CR= level.
Wait what AoE deals 65 hp damage?
Because those cyclops aren't going down to a 10d6 fireball.And.
What makes anyone think they are going to stand together like bowling pins, waiting for a nice ripe AoE?
A least metamagic rod of empower affects a fireball, which covers a 40' circle, which is a 15d6 fireball, which is 52 damage and change. You don't have to get them all at once...you just have to get a bunch of them, then the next bunch of them. You can Intensify the spell to raise the cap to 15d6, and Empower it for 22d6, which is a wipe on a failed Reflex save.
Remember, you have to average killing one a round. Whether you do that by summons, cloudkill, CIRCLE OF DEATH, chain lightning, ice storm, fireball, or what have you, you're generally going to be better and faster about it then the monk. It's what arcane casters are, after all.
And we're talking a level 13 caster, up to 7th level spells. Some of those AoE's are quite large. If he can do any kind of battlefield control with walls and such, them mooks have a big problem.
==Aelryinth
Also - and this is the part that gets me - I didn't ask for something complicated. These encounters aren't even weird. They're 8 CRs below the actual CR of the encounter. My players in my tabletop games, with 15 point buy, have handled encounters like this routinely. I'm not sure why people seem to think either enemies OR allies are going to be so incredibly stupid during these encounters as to invalidate them.
My players get up and put on their big boy pants each adventuring day. They would see 10 basilisks and try to stay out of the range of their gaze attacks while still being offensive (or if they have minions who are immune to petrification try to chase the mooks away).
Got troubles with wraiths? Well there are ways of marginalizing the threat they post at 13th level (including being outright immune to them harming you).
Got cyclops? Don't get surrounded.
Choking on Cloakers? There are solutions for that at 13th level too.
These aren't bizarre encounters. These are simple encounters that you only have to deal with at most one major special-case problem from said mooks at a time (as I said mixed mooks would be more dangerous). The challenge is in the monk's favor. All he has to do is kill some mooks in a large window of time to prove that he is contributing to the overall success of the party by being the mook-masher and letting everyone else do their thing to be the big-basher; since that's what 3.5 Loyalist claimed before calling me a jerk because I thought the very idea of it was preposterous. But invited him to show me otherwise but he happily ignored that post too and claimed it was because laughing makes me a jerk and he won't respond to me being a jerk.
Now I deliver into his possession a challenge that doesn't even require the monk to deal with the BBEG or even all the mooks at once, absent of laughter and joy and smiles and his response is that I'm "desperate to win", and again "a jerk", and that I've "rigged" the encounter (in the monks favor perhaps!). All he has to do is wipe some mooks quickly without being killed in the process from mook retaliations.
It seems like the sort of "mook" that is expected here is the CR 1/3 1st level NPC warrior sort of mook. Which is a full -13 CR below the CR of the encounter and presumably the party's level. The Gamemastering rules advise not even awarding XP for enemies -10 CRs or worse because they are considered trivial. And yet the irony with that is that would mean that there were closer to like 80+ of said mooks in the encounter which means that they would pester the ever-loving-snot out of the party and the monk would kill maybe 1-2 per round while the rest shot, lobbed alchemist fire, clogged pathways, threw nets, spread caltrops, smeared oils, read scrolls, cast magic missile and all kinds of heinous and annoying things to the party.
So even in that scenario of "tons of enemies usually not even worth experience points" the monk still is pretty horrible at mashing mooks without them lining up in a nice, organized, single file to 5 ft. step into his full-attack at the end of the line each round.
Ashiel, lifesense functions like blindsight. If the wraith is inside an object, it can't sense anything...it's lifesense would be blocked just like blindsight would be blocked, right? Losing line of sight? I see nothing there that says the ability works through walls and stuff, because blindsight certainly doesn't.
If the person stays in an adjacent square, the wraith can strike with a 1/4 chance of straight up missing (blind-fighting), but it will have to emerge to see where someone goes if they move further away then that, no?
Hrm de drm. They could then go back in and try to move to an adjacent square inside something...but they'd likely provoke AoO's for doing so, if they are in a threat range. Which also might be problematic if the creature has any form of flying and can stay away from a solid floor.
:) There's a reason my fighters get Ghost Touch early on their weapons!
==Aelryinth
No offense dude, but those aren't mooks from maybe 6th level on. They're trash tier, not mooks. If a single AOE spell kills pretty much everything, thats not a mook, thats trash.
Anything that's 3 CR or more lower than your level is pretty much a mook. Unless grouped in very large numbers, they won't even resemble a threat, and a lot of the time not even then. Seriously, 4 level 8's could take on an army of goblins and not really have a hard time of it.
Oh and at level 15, CR 5 shouldn't even be a mook. It should be trash tier. Nearly any class can solo a monster of CR= level.
Wait what AoE deals 65 hp damage?
Because those cyclops aren't going down to a 10d6 fireball.And.
What makes anyone think they are going to stand together like bowling pins, waiting for a nice ripe AoE?
A least metamagic rod of empower affects a fireball, which covers a 40' circle, which is a 15d6 fireball, which is 52 damage and change. You don't have to get them all at once...you just have to get a bunch of them, then the next bunch of them. You can Intensify the spell to raise the cap to 15d6, and Empower it for 22d6, which is a wipe on a failed Reflex save.
Remember, you have to average killing one a round. Whether you do that by summons, cloudkill, CIRCLE OF DEATH, chain lightning, ice storm, fireball, or what have you, you're generally going to be better and faster about it then the monk. It's what arcane casters are, after all.
And we're talking a level 13 caster, up to 7th level spells. Some of those AoE's are quite large. If he can do any kind of battlefield control with walls and such, them mooks have a big problem.
==Aelryinth
Everything Aelryinth has said. If you wanted to wipe trash mobs the quickest then having your casters or pets go at them is probably the best course. At this level your caster can chuck a pair of 10d6 fireballs in a single round (one quickened, one not) and probably off everything in the radius (except those damn wraiths) 'cause the average damage for fireball is 35, and twice is 60. Even on a save you've halved or worse the HP of every mook caught in the rather massive circle (push them to critical levels and you'll likely see them fleeing as well due to logical morale considerations).
And fireball isn't even a great spell. It's often cited as being rather underpowered. Things like black tentacles or web will can simply remove mooks from the fight entirely or plug holes in your defenses so that the mooks cannot attack from a direction.
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No offense dude, but those aren't mooks from maybe 6th level on. They're trash tier, not mooks. If a single AOE spell kills pretty much everything, thats not a mook, thats trash.
Anything that's 3 CR or more lower than your level is pretty much a mook. Unless grouped in very large numbers, they won't even resemble a threat, and a lot of the time not even then. Seriously, 4 level 8's could take on an army of goblins and not really have a hard time of it.
Oh and at level 15, CR 5 shouldn't even be a mook. It should be trash tier. Nearly any class can solo a monster of CR= level.
Wait what AoE deals 65 hp damage?
Because those cyclops aren't going down to a 10d6 fireball.And.
What makes anyone think they are going to stand together like bowling pins, waiting for a nice ripe AoE?
A least metamagic rod of empower affects a fireball, which covers a 40' circle, which is a 15d6 fireball, which is 52 damage and change. You don't have to get them all at once...you just have to get a bunch of them, then the next bunch of them. You can Intensify the spell to raise the cap to 15d6, and Empower it for 22d6, which is a wipe on a failed Reflex save.
Remember, you have to average killing one a round. Whether you do that by summons, cloudkill, CIRCLE OF DEATH, chain lightning, ice storm, fireball, or what have you, you're generally going to be better and faster about it then the monk. It's what arcane casters are, after all.
And we're talking a level 13 caster, up to 7th level spells. Some of those AoE's are quite large. If he can do any kind of battlefield control with walls and such, them mooks have a big problem.
==Aelryinth
If you can catch them all then your grand but the moment you don't and it's their turn then you better believe they are going to charge.
Now what I said still applies. It's not about the damage, it's about how many are going to be standing next to each other.
No sensible DM is going to have a lot of large creatures standing close to each other, you spread them out so you can maximize their reach.
{stuff}
I'm sorry, but this has been demonstrated again and again on these boards. There was a whole thread about it, with any other class bringing more to a party than the monk, together with examples and builds and all. The point was solidly proven that the monk is weak. He fares better against mooks compared to CR-equivelants and bosses, but other classes fare just as well against them if not better.
A non-archer paladin vs mooks? He's at his weakest against multiple foes, but he can still Great Cleave a whole bunch of them at once. His damage without smiting is usually better than the monk's flurrying. His AC is comparable, his saves are better. He can do as well if not better than the monk against these foes, and that is him at his weakest.
The monk is weak. It's slightly improved, but still weak. Live with it.
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Nah, Shallow, the wizard isn't DUMB. The monk can survive melee, but he can't.
hence, he's either going to fly or get up out of reach, or put down some blockers first, be it a wall or summons. And when the baddies cluster up, he's going to take them down. Black Tentacles does double duty this way as blocking and damage.
And we're talking a 13th level caster here. There's all sorts of stuff you can do to the enemy. Heck, with Imp Invis, they aren't even going to know where he is at any given moment! I'm sure you could come up with some wicked combos with just a little thought. 10 mooks aren't going to last 10 rounds against a level 13 wizard.
==Aelryinth
Wizard players can get some fine tactics going, but something needs to be pointed out about the tribe of cyclops vs a wizarrrrrd. They have good attack, great damage (3d6+7 will go through wizard hp really quick), ferocity (yeah when they are on 0 they are not actually out of the combat), nice fort, reach of course, and should a wizard use their first spell to fly fly away, the standard cyclops have reach to nab the flier, and sport a 2d8 heavy crossbow (attack is a bit low though at +5).
If they fight the wizard up close, in the manner that the monk is having to fight them solo (they gang-up on you in close, surround, bash) a wizard can die real fast.
Black tentacles vs cyclops? Their CMD is 22 and the damage is only d6+4 if they win a grapple. :|
Tentacles against cyclops isn't a good call, fly can be problematic inside, underground or through a tropical jungle (one of the cyclops terrains). Fly isn't an immediate win (but I've used it to good effect in the past). Trying to carpet bomb the Vietnamese cyclops could work, or they could just retreat into the jungle and try to draw the wizard back in closer.
Dab, my claim that monks can take mooks has been battered around pretty hard with things brought out that I wouldn't actually consider mooks. However what Ashiel and the others never disputed was the monks speed and pretty nice saves. All part of my defence of the monk as some of the merits of the monk are really clear (but get swept under the rug). They are a strange class the monk, and I agree the game is leaving them behind a bit, but pushing the qiggong, crane and zen archer monk. Their skirmish potential would be better with some of the flying kick type options of 3.5. That would work better with their speed. Their flurry does have a few levels where it is pretty good and gets around the bab problem, but offence gets eclipsed by others (which don't have their exact immunities although some days barbs seem to be as immune as the monk to poisons).
Go with peace brothers and sisters. Ommmmmmm.
EDIT: and you have to give a good reason of why the monk is the only one dealing with the lions. Cause a single slow form the wizard could end the fight.Well the rest of the party can break ranks and begin fighting the mooks. I said this. But if that's the case then the bad guys are winning. 3.5 Loyalist said that monks excel at smashing mooks. That was their "strength". That's apparently why you would have them in the party since - by his own statement - the monk wasn't good at dealing with the BBEG. So either the monk is exceptionally good at dealing with mooks and allows the other PCs to do their jobs better or he isn't and he doesn't.
It's not complicated. Either he's a flat tire that needs to be changed or he gets you where you need to go.
Well monks do excel at getting where they need to go. That speed, that acrobatics. Mmmmmm.
Cavaliers and pallies have a lot more mobility problems than they do. We could ignore this entirely though and call them a flat tire and make a travel analogy (when monks actually travel well and fast).