I like a lot of the monk options in the 3 to 3.5 books. Paizo is trying to reinvent the wheel and come up with its own new monks that are better than the vanilla monk.
Needs a total re-write, give it a lot of ki power options a la the barbarian and let the players go nuts. Not spend a ki point for this, your martial art allows you to do this (but you didn't learn this other ki power over here).
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Really a Monk could make a cool new edition to the 4-level caster club.
I like the class already, and have a lot of fun playing it, but one of a few things need to happen, either his BaB and hit dice need to be bumped up to full and d10 to make him a good frontliner, or it needs to go the other way and make him more of a mystic martial artist.
Having Fuse Styles as a base class feature and not being required to trade out anything for Qinggong powers (you just pick one at certain levels) would be a solid start down that road IMO.
Or all of the above, and then you can clear out the bloody stupid clutter of the class like "Maneuver Training", Tongue of the Sun and Moon (or bump it way down in level acquired so it's actually USEFUL), and High Jump. I could probably do without Diamond Soul, Still Mind, and Abundant Step/Empty Body as automatic gains too TBH, just lump those into their new Ki Powers class feature as options.
Actually it's usually the Renegade options that are jerkish, not Paragon.
Ain't that the truth. I couldn't bring myself to do most of those options, as badass as they were they were too brutal for me.
I do not want to interrupt that chat of you two but I believe taht if the monk have one ki point then he can bypas taht DR.
Barbazu have DR 5/Good or Silver. Monks have Lawful and Magic fists.
I agree with Rynjin, though. 3.5 Loyalist doesn't deserve this kind of treatment :<
I do not want to interrupt that chat of you two but I believe taht if the monk have one ki point then he can bypas taht DR.Barbazu have DR 5/Good or Silver. Monks have Lawful and Magic fists.Ki Pool: Monks typically have problems bypassing DR with their unarmed strikes, forcing them to rely on weapons to deal with many forms of DR. We have decided to add a new ability to the Ki Pool monk class feature. At 7th level, a monk's unarmed strikes count as cold iron and silver for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, so long as he has at least 1 point remaining in his ki pool.
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5le61?Monkeying-Around
Oh, nifty. I just looked at the Paizo wiki (the 'Reference Document') and didn't see anything there. That's really cool though.
Really a Monk could make a cool new edition to the 4-level caster club.
I like the class already, and have a lot of fun playing it, but one of a few things need to happen, either his BaB and hit dice need to be bumped up to full and d10 to make him a good frontliner, or it needs to go the other way and make him more of a mystic martial artist.
Having Fuse Styles as a base class feature and not being required to trade out anything for Qinggong powers (you just pick one at certain levels) would be a solid start down that road IMO.
Or all of the above, and then you can clear out the bloody stupid clutter of the class like "Maneuver Training", Tongue of the Sun and Moon (or bump it way down in level acquired so it's actually USEFUL), and High Jump. I could probably do without Diamond Soul, Still Mind, and Abundant Step/Empty Body as automatic gains too TBH, just lump those into their new Ki Powers class feature as options.
Yeah, solid steps (a new monk power perhaps?). Give the monk players choice and prevent them from having to go and find feats to do what they want to do, and poach off old sources.
Clutter must be avoided, so much clutter in the tables. My eyes get sore reading that bunched up text.
Ashiel in the past has had some good suggestion on what could be done to the monk, as in merge them into spellcaster. I'd like ki kept away from spellcasting as there is so much they can do rather than make them just another spellcaster. Copy pasting 3.5 and messing with some of the numbers was a bit lazy. They get a lot, they can fulfill some roles, but I don't think they quite fit. In 3.5 this also came up.
Here is an idea, they can get deflect arrows no problem yeah? Well how about a special ki ability to ignore one attack a round--doesn't matter what they roll, like deflect arrows. Wow that would be good. You would want it a few levels in, and down a defensive ki ability tree as we are conceiving them, but you also want to give it moderately early, so that the monk gains coolness. :D
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Yeah, solid steps (a new monk power perhaps?). Give the monk players choice and prevent them from having to go and find feats to do what they want to do, and poach off old sources.
Clutter must be avoided, so much clutter in the tables. My eyes get sore reading that bunched up text.
Ashiel in the past has had some good suggestion on what could be done to the monk, as in merge them into spellcaster. I'd like ki kept away from spellcasting as there is so much they can do rather than make them just another spellcaster. Copy pasting 3.5 and messing with some of the numbers was a bit lazy. They get a lot, they can fulfill some roles, but I don't think they quite fit. In 3.5 this also came up.
Here is an idea, they can get deflect arrows no problem yeah? Well how about a special ki ability to ignore one attack a round--doesn't matter what they roll, like deflect arrows. Wow that would be good. You would want it a few levels in, and down a defensive ki ability tree as we are conceiving them, but you also want to give it moderately early, so that the monk gains coolness. :D
A 'coolness' factor should be involved. When I think Monk, I'm thinking of the movie IP man, and other films like that. It might get a bit into wuxia (which I don't mind, but am not a big fan of), but then Wizards are stopping time and Clerics are summoning volcanoes. It should be OK.
Deflecting attacks automatically is really strong, but then Crane style does it, and Ray Shield lets you deflect away a magical ray. Various offensive and defensive abilities would be nice. And I agree with the design concept of having it shaped like Barbarians - Pick a power every so often. And they could keep a good deal of what they have now (slow fall, fast movement, and AC bonuses are all very cool). Reducing the MAD problem is a tough one, though.
Just to reiterate on the monk, they can do what they can do, skirmish, soak spells, be safe from poison, but what they need is to really depart from bonus feats entirely (and clutter).
Make the ki stuff strong, give the players choice (damn barbarians with all their special ability choice!), take it far far away from feats because monks should be really into the mysteries of ki, not a dab of ki, a bit of speed, make sure you choose your feats well young grasshopper.
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Just to reiterate on the monk, they can do what they can do, skirmish, soak spells, be safe from poison, but what they need is to really depart from bonus feats entirely (and clutter).
Make the ki stuff strong, give the players choice (damn barbarians with all their special ability choice!), take it far far away from feats because monks should be really into the mysteries of ki, not a dab of ki, a bit of speed, make sure you choose your feats well young grasshopper.
I'm with that. You could describe the powers as Ki (or Chi, or whatever - inner strength is the idea) but make the feats just extra stuff. The Ranger and Paladin are kinda like that. The feat choices are important, but they don't define the class. When you think Paladin, you think Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, Mercies, Divine Bond...not Dodge. Same with Ranger.
The Monk needs to follow the same design idea - it needs to be defined by it's abilities and have the feats be icing on the cake.
Barbarians get both Robilar's Gambit AND Shock Trooper. hardly gone from the system.
Yeah, solid steps (a new monk power perhaps?). Give the monk players choice and prevent them from having to go and find feats to do what they want to do, and poach off old sources.
Clutter must be avoided, so much clutter in the tables. My eyes get sore reading that bunched up text.
Ashiel in the past has had some good suggestion on what could be done to the monk, as in merge them into spellcaster. I'd like ki kept away from spellcasting as there is so much they can do rather than make them just another spellcaster. Copy pasting 3.5 and messing with some of the numbers was a bit lazy. They get a lot, they can fulfill some roles, but I don't think they quite fit. In 3.5 this also came up.
Here is an idea, they can get deflect arrows no problem yeah? Well how about a special ki ability to ignore one attack a round--doesn't matter what they roll, like deflect arrows. Wow that would be good. You would want it a few levels in, and down a defensive ki ability tree as we are conceiving them, but you also want to give it moderately early, so that the monk gains coolness. :D
A 'coolness' factor should be involved. When I think Monk, I'm thinking of the movie IP man, and other films like that. It might get a bit into wuxia (which I don't mind, but am not a big fan of), but then Wizards are stopping time and Clerics are summoning volcanoes. It should be OK.
Deflecting attacks automatically is really strong, but then Crane style does it, and Ray Shield lets you deflect away a magical ray. Various offensive and defensive abilities would be nice. And I agree with the design concept of having it shaped like Barbarians - Pick a power every so often. And they could keep a good deal of what they have now (slow fall, fast movement, and AC bonuses are all very cool). Reducing the MAD problem is a tough one, though.
Yeah, you got it. The monk could be streamed into soft (ac, low damage, hinder and debilitate opponents) or hard styles (all that to hit and damage, strike through opponents, sunder like mad).
This is my 4000th post. So got to say, some good times and some bitter arguments. With good cheer I have got to add, still didn't read your recent posts Ashiel but I did see the bold bit on the end. Maybe type all in bold? :P
Just to reiterate on the monk, they can do what they can do, skirmish, soak spells, be safe from poison, but what they need is to really depart from bonus feats entirely (and clutter).
Well they can be safe from poison...
Barbarians get both Robilar's Gambit AND Shock Trooper. hardly gone from the system.
Oh yeah? I haven't seen a remake of Shock Trooper. Robilar's Gambit definitely, but I haven't seen something allowing them to dump their full BAB into an AC penalty for one round in exchange for adding a BAB * 2 to damage on all attacks during a charge; which they proceeded to immediately use with Pounce.
At least, that's how it went in 3.5. Shock Trooper actually isn't that bad in Pathfinder because of how Pathfinder doesn't let you dump your entire BAB.
Evasion, good saves all round and still mind can be pretty nifty. Still in control of the monk-flurrywagon!
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Yeah, you got it. The monk could be streamed into soft (ac, low damage, hinder and debilitate opponents) or hard styles (all that to hit and damage, strike through opponents, sunder like mad).
This is my 4000th post. So got to say, some good times and some bitter arguments. With good cheer I have got to add, still didn't read your recent posts Ashiel but I did see the bold bit on the end. Maybe type all in bold? :P
That would be really cool. If he could switch between them, it becomes even better. He delays an enemy (soft mode) while the party handles some other threat for a few rounds, then when they come over to help, he turns into whoopin' mode (hard style). That would make it fun to play. And break you off from the tyranny of the full attack a bit.
Congrats on 4k! I'm still in the triple digits, and not even to 500 yet.
Barbarians get both Robilar's Gambit AND Shock Trooper. hardly gone from the system.Oh yeah? I haven't seen a remake of Shock Trooper. Robilar's Gambit definitely, but I haven't seen something allowing them to dump their full BAB into an AC penalty for one round in exchange for adding a BAB * 2 to damage on all attacks during a charge; which they proceeded to immediately use with Pounce.
At least, that's how it went in 3.5. Shock Trooper actually isn't that bad in Pathfinder because of how Pathfinder doesn't let you dump your entire BAB.
Shock Trooper Exists as a rage power. a different mechanic that amounts to the same net thing.
Trade an AC penalty for an Attack Buff at the same rate as power attack. combined with power attack, it recreates shock trooper.
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Evasion, good saves all round and still mind can be pretty nifty. Still in control of the monk-flurrywagon!do not forget the double edge of spell resistance.
Qinggong Monk is good for that.
30 STR = 10 mod = 20 damage its two handed archetype. 20 + 4 WT +2 gloves + 5 enchant + 24 power attack (read the archetype) + 2 (base weapon damage)+4 Spec=61*5=305.
To compare Barbarian. HP from class 7* 20 +5=145 Favored class bonus for fun 165. Rage Bonus +10 Con = +100. 265. 305-265=40/20=2 So yeah Low con Barbarian with favored class bonus of health, the Raging vitality feat, and his 20th level rage is one shotted by base damage.
if you want I can do casters though they won't fair nearly as well.
The game isn't balanced for PvP, and if your THF-spec'd fighter was pit against a full caster the most probable outcome depends on how contrived the setup is. If it's a small arena then you favour the fighter but the caster can still win if they get initiative, if it's not an arena then the fighter loses because trying to hit someone with a sword who can teleport is generally rather hard.
30 STR = 10 mod = 20 damage its two handed archetype. 20 + 4 WT +2 gloves + 5 enchant + 24 power attack (read the archetype) + 2 (base weapon damage)+4 Spec=61*5=305.
To compare Barbarian. HP from class 7* 20 +5=145 Favored class bonus for fun 165. Rage Bonus +10 Con = +100. 265. 305-265=40/20=2 So yeah Low con Barbarian with favored class bonus of health, the Raging vitality feat, and his 20th level rage is one shotted by base damage.
if you want I can do casters though they won't fair nearly as well.
No worries. I'll make this easier on us both.
18 Strength (16 base + 2 race) = +6.
Power Attack = +3.
Greatsword = 7 average damage.
Barbarian Rage = +2.
Total = 18 damage (minimum 13, maximum 23).
A 1st level Barbarian with an 18 Constitution = 16 Hp.
A 1st level Fighter with an 18 Constitution = 14 HP.
A 1st level Cleric with an 18 Constitution = 12 Hp.
A 1st level Wizard with an 18 Constitution = 10 HP.
A 1st level Warrior with an 18 Constitution = 9 HP.
A 1st level Expert with an 18 Constitution = 8 Hp.
A 1st level Adept with an 18 Constitution = 7 Hp.
The average CR 1 enemy = 15 HP.
The average CR 1/2 enemy = 10 HP.
The average CR 1/3 enemy = 6 HP.
The average CR 1/4 enemy = 4 HP.
The strongest and most damaging and most consistent rocket tag you will ever play is at 1st level. At this level you are statistically likely to move and make a single standard action attack and one-shot almost any class in the game on a successful hit even if they have specced Constitution prime. Without a critical hit. And at this level you don't have to worry about things like mirror image, displacement, etc.
The rest of the game is moving further and further away from rocket tag.
Barbarians get both Robilar's Gambit AND Shock Trooper. hardly gone from the system.Oh yeah? I haven't seen a remake of Shock Trooper. Robilar's Gambit definitely, but I haven't seen something allowing them to dump their full BAB into an AC penalty for one round in exchange for adding a BAB * 2 to damage on all attacks during a charge; which they proceeded to immediately use with Pounce.
At least, that's how it went in 3.5. Shock Trooper actually isn't that bad in Pathfinder because of how Pathfinder doesn't let you dump your entire BAB.
Shock Trooper Exists as a rage power. a different mechanic that amounts to the same net thing.
Trade an AC penalty for an Attack Buff at the same rate as power attack. combined with power attack, it recreates shock trooper.
Ahhh. Okay, you're talking about Reckless Abandon. Yeah, that will work, but it's not as impacting as Shock Trooper was in 3.5. You could actually allow Shock Trooper from 3.5 into Pathfinder and it probably not disrupt anything since you can't sink your entire BAB into Power Attack anymore. :P
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Ahhh. Okay, you're talking about Reckless Abandon. Yeah, that will work, but it's not as impacting as Shock Trooper was in 3.5. You could actually allow Shock Trooper from 3.5 into Pathfinder and it probably not disrupt anything since you can't sink your entire BAB into Power Attack anymore. :PBarbarians get both Robilar's Gambit AND Shock Trooper. hardly gone from the system.Oh yeah? I haven't seen a remake of Shock Trooper. Robilar's Gambit definitely, but I haven't seen something allowing them to dump their full BAB into an AC penalty for one round in exchange for adding a BAB * 2 to damage on all attacks during a charge; which they proceeded to immediately use with Pounce.
At least, that's how it went in 3.5. Shock Trooper actually isn't that bad in Pathfinder because of how Pathfinder doesn't let you dump your entire BAB.
Shock Trooper Exists as a rage power. a different mechanic that amounts to the same net thing.
Trade an AC penalty for an Attack Buff at the same rate as power attack. combined with power attack, it recreates shock trooper.
you could also allow 3.5 Robilar's gambit as a fighter feat and it won't disrupt anything either.
The game isn't balanced for PvP, and if your THF-spec'd fighter was pit against a full caster the most probable outcome depends on how contrived the setup is. If it's a small arena then you favour the fighter but the caster can still win if they get initiative, if it's not an arena then the fighter loses because trying to hit someone with a sword who can teleport is generally rather hard.By contrived you mean, who wins initiative, which i believe is the definition of rocket tag.
O_o No. I'm talking about the size of field of battle. Either you plonk them both down in an area that is at most 60 foot across so the caster can be charged and there's no previous knowledge or anything of the other, or you say they're enemies and they're going to fight each other eventually. 1st one favours martial, second one favours caster. Both situations are inorganic and equally farcical.
Besides, I forgot about the immediate action wall of force spell, Emergency Force Sphere. Guess melee loses anyway.
Well keep in mind your 20th level barbarian example has super-balls Hp for that level. In core alone a barbarian who began with a 14 Constitution in a standard party with an arcane caster can amass a +6 enhancement, +5 inherent (via wish) for a 25 Constitution by 20th level. That's assuming no level up bonuses put into Con (though 1/5 would bump him to 26). That would give the Barbarian a base hit points of: 275 Hp. Add in Rage for another +80 Hp = 355 HP with no Rage powers, no Toughness, and no favored class bonus, nor any buffs like Enlarge Person, or any temporary HP, damage reductions, or miss % factored in. Meanwhile at this level your average cleric can be sporting heal + quickened heal to heal pretty much all the damage taken in such an attack.
you could also allow 3.5 Robilar's gambit as a fighter feat and it won't disrupt anything either.Ahhh. Okay, you're talking about Reckless Abandon. Yeah, that will work, but it's not as impacting as Shock Trooper was in 3.5. You could actually allow Shock Trooper from 3.5 into Pathfinder and it probably not disrupt anything since you can't sink your entire BAB into Power Attack anymore. :PBarbarians get both Robilar's Gambit AND Shock Trooper. hardly gone from the system.Oh yeah? I haven't seen a remake of Shock Trooper. Robilar's Gambit definitely, but I haven't seen something allowing them to dump their full BAB into an AC penalty for one round in exchange for adding a BAB * 2 to damage on all attacks during a charge; which they proceeded to immediately use with Pounce.
At least, that's how it went in 3.5. Shock Trooper actually isn't that bad in Pathfinder because of how Pathfinder doesn't let you dump your entire BAB.
Shock Trooper Exists as a rage power. a different mechanic that amounts to the same net thing.
Trade an AC penalty for an Attack Buff at the same rate as power attack. combined with power attack, it recreates shock trooper.
Seems reasonable. IIRC fighters got some pretty decent love in PHB II. They got some high level feats that allowed them to apply their weapon specialization bonuses to all weapons that shared a damage type (so you could spec slashing, bludgeoning, or piercing weapons) and a very high level ability that allows a fighter to "take 10" on an attack roll each round.
Wouldn't that be another 160 HP at 20th level (+8 Mighty Rage) for a total of 435?
Wouldn't that be another 160 HP at 20th level (+8 Mighty Rage) for a total of 435?
no, it's +80 because +8 con=+4 modifer 4x20=80
with favored class, toughness, and raging vitality. the barbarian can have 415 HP when raging. with a 3.5 feat from Monster Manual 5 he can have that 435.
415 HP with DR10/- is a deadly combo for a tank. especially with pounce and +7 morale bonus to all saving throws. trading your +6 natural armor as fodder for +6 to hit to shock trooper your power attack.
Oh derp. Smack me over the head.
Oh derp. Smack me over the head.
it's fine. people make mistakes all the time. and it is very rare i get to ninja.
They got some high level feats that allowed them to apply their weapon specialization bonuses to all weapons that shared a damage type (so you could spec slashing, bludgeoning, or piercing weapons) and a very high level ability that allows a fighter to "take 10" on an attack roll each round.
Isn't there a human fighter feat that lets you apply all your specializations to a weapon group?
Also, imo, the Mythic Abilities really are a boon to fighters especially.
EDIT: Q_Q I specifically linked it.
Martial Mastery
Prerequisites: Martial Versatility, fighter level 16th, human.
Benefit: Each combat feat you have that applies to a specific weapon (e.g., Weapon Focus) can be used with all weapons in the same weapon group.
They got some high level feats that allowed them to apply their weapon specialization bonuses to all weapons that shared a damage type (so you could spec slashing, bludgeoning, or piercing weapons) and a very high level ability that allows a fighter to "take 10" on an attack roll each round.Isn't there a human fighter feat that lets you apply all your specializations to a weapon group?
Also, imo, the Mythic Abilities really are a boon to fighters especially.
There is but I don't like it specifically because it's human-only. You shouldn't have to be a particular race to not suck IMHO. It's pretty much the reason I dislike the human favored class option for sorcerers and oracles (it is just too critical to building a good sorcerer or oracle). I'd rather have seen some other option (like a feat that did the same thing) so everyone could have some love.
I'd have a lot more respect for the weapon specialization feats if the Martial Mastery was available much, much earlier and to every race.
There is but I don't like it specifically because it's human-only. You shouldn't have to be a particular race to not suck IMHO. It's pretty much the reason I dislike the human favored class option for sorcerers and oracles (it is just too critical to building a good sorcerer or oracle). I'd rather have seen some other option (like a feat that did the same thing) so everyone could have some love.
I'd have a lot more respect for the weapon specialization feats if the Martial Mastery was available much, much earlier and to every race.
And I can I can respect that opinion. Mind you that's an easy fix for non-pfs play, just house rule it for everyone.