I have an elf conjurer 6 currently and thinking about back up wizards as character mortality in the campaign is an issue. So I ask the readers to rate the seven specialist s and the universalist .
Even better?
Well here is how I guess it 1. Conjurer 2. Diviner 3. Evoker 4.transmuter 5. Necromancer 6.Abjurer 7. Illusionist 8. Universalist 9. Enchanter. Now someone else try.
I have to disagree with CN, here. If you're playing core only, Evocation is one of the better schools, IMO. Not tippy-top, but solid.
That said, the only bad one is Universalist.
Schools aren't that big of a deal, especially in PF, where prohibited schools became opposed schools. My wizards rely on the spells in their books, and they can use any school, so casting Vampiric Touch into somebody's spell-storing weapon on an easy day isn't impossible, even if it's an opposed school.
You can have a good wizard using any school. They all have useful spells.
It's hard to put them in order, but Conj. is strongest. The rest can do well or not so well depending on the game you're in.
So I guess what I'm saying is that I can't answer the question! LOL
Evocation pretty much is at the bottom especially if you are playing core only. Unless you really put a lot of effort into it, its not that great. The only way it shines is if the GM use a lot of mooks because otherwise the bad guys are still standing. A bad guy with 1hp and a bad guy with 50 hp still hit you the same since PF does not use a wounds system which makes you weaker the more you get hurt. Now if you can get dazing spell(splat feat) evocation just got a lot better.
PS:I am not saying an evocation wizard can't work. I am saying it is at the bottom, but since you are a wizard your "bottom" is still better than almost everyone else.
Not limited to core just like those best.
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Evocation starts to shine when you look at other books. A dip in cross blooded sorcerer witht he right blood lines can cause the evoker to tear it up. Admixture and all the knowledge skills allows you to balst things with whatever they are weak against.
But I would agree control and action economy is what wins fight best. As conjorer is king.
Evocation pretty much is at the bottom especially if you are playing core only. Unless you really put a lot of effort into it, its not that great. The only way it shines is if the GM use a lot of mooks because otherwise the bad guys are still standing. A bad guy with 1hp and a bad guy with 50 hp still hit you the same since PF does not use a wounds system which makes you weaker the more you get hurt. Now if you can get dazing spell(splat feat) evocation just got a lot better.
PS:I am not saying an evocation wizard can't work. I am saying it is at the bottom, but since you are a wizard your "bottom" is still better than almost everyone else.
You can play an evoker and never cast fireball. There are 5 3rd level evocations, and only 2 are blasts. Treantmonk rated it green for core, and he emphasized that he doesn't care for damage spells.
Evocation pretty much is at the bottom especially if you are playing core only. Unless you really put a lot of effort into it, its not that great. The only way it shines is if the GM use a lot of mooks because otherwise the bad guys are still standing. A bad guy with 1hp and a bad guy with 50 hp still hit you the same since PF does not use a wounds system which makes you weaker the more you get hurt. Now if you can get dazing spell(splat feat) evocation just got a lot better.
PS:I am not saying an evocation wizard can't work. I am saying it is at the bottom, but since you are a wizard your "bottom" is still better than almost everyone else.
You can play an evoker and never cast fireball. There are 5 3rd level evocations, and only 2 are blasts. Treantmonk rated it green for core, and he emphasized that he doesn't care for damage spells.
You can't just look at 3rd level spells, and I have yet to see anyone give reasons to choose it as anything other than a bottom 3 school.
Conjuration. Your bonus spell slot is amazingly versatile for this school. The teleportation sub school just adds to the awesomeness.
Divination has amazing bonus to Init. The bonus spell slot is neigh useless, so kinda a bummer.
Illusion, adds rounds to durration ofter you abandon concentration. If you have effortless trickery, not useful. If you aren't a gnome, wonderful. Illusions power tends to fluctuate GM to GM and how they rule on the 'interaction' needed to make a will save.
Necromancy, Evocation, Transmutation These are all about equal. These spells cover a huge portion of the spells available, so there is a lot of versatility, but the school powers are kinda meh.
Abjuration. The abilities are basically replacements for spells that will end up as your bonus spells anyway.
Enchantment. So many creatures are just flat out immune, it is hard to make a case this is a specialization worthy school. On the other hand, when the spells work they are phenomenal. Sadly, due to the lack of use, this is the worst of the schools.
Universalist. You give up a whole bunch for the abillity to throw a stick 30'! YAY!? Just dont do it.
You can't just look at 3rd level spells,No, you can't.
and I have yet to see anyone give reasons to choose it as anything other than a bottom 3 school.
All I can do is appeal to authority, and play the game. We're talking straight core.
T say: Blue: Conj
Green: Evoc, Illu, Necro, Trans
Orange: Abj, Div, Ench,
Red: Univ
Divination gives you awesome initiative. Of course, since divinations are best used out of combat, having to have one in a slot won't rely on initiative. You'll usually go early, but you won't be casting Tongues.
They take up slots, every day, even if you don't use them. And you won't when the SHTF.
Evocation? Pick one at random. Any level. A wall made of any of 4 energies at 8th?
So, what will you cast when you're in combat? Wall of Force, or Contact other Plane?
I know what I'm going to cast more often when things get violent. I'm supposed to be a god.
What is "appeal to authority"?
What is "appeal to authority"?
His holy majesty, Lord Treantmonk. What "T" say.
He nailed core wizards pretty well, I think. Not that I agree on the finest points, but who ever does?
Ok..Yeah he did a good job. He normally does. :)
Idk IM working on a dwarf universalist battlemage with a +2bonded axe or hammer wearing +2 mithril breastplate crafts his own stuff. Not optimal but seems flavorful.
battlemage? What is the actual class being used?
You can't just look at 3rd level spells, and I have yet to see anyone give reasons to choose it as anything other than a bottom 3 school.Evocation pretty much is at the bottom especially if you are playing core only. Unless you really put a lot of effort into it, its not that great. The only way it shines is if the GM use a lot of mooks because otherwise the bad guys are still standing. A bad guy with 1hp and a bad guy with 50 hp still hit you the same since PF does not use a wounds system which makes you weaker the more you get hurt. Now if you can get dazing spell(splat feat) evocation just got a lot better.
PS:I am not saying an evocation wizard can't work. I am saying it is at the bottom, but since you are a wizard your "bottom" is still better than almost everyone else.
You can play an evoker and never cast fireball. There are 5 3rd level evocations, and only 2 are blasts. Treantmonk rated it green for core, and he emphasized that he doesn't care for damage spells.
for core only i agree, but if UM is okay, rime spell can function like a mini time stop if you do it right
im playing an evoker for fun who uses frozen rimey spells as his main focus, freeze the enemies in place and buy my team extra turns
later on dazing spell does the same thing, kinda
the build is an elf spellbinder, and its a lotta fun, i also scribe a lot of my frozen rime fireballs and such so i still have spells to cast so its not like im running out of ammo like evokers are notorious for doing
it can be good if you do it right, but that argument can be made for pretty much anything
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I think that Rime and Dazing spell and Admixture did a fine job of making Evocation a serious contender, far better than Enchantment for example. I'm not impressed with the benefits of actually specializing in Necromancy or Illusion either.
There's a bunch of schools where the school abilities are only so-so, but there are a few good spells. Transmutation, Illusion, Necormancy and Enchantment have some great spells. However, they don't have stuff at every level that I'd prepare every day.
That's what makes Conjuration so good. Excellent spells at every level, combined with good school powers.
Divination is the odd one, with spells you're not exactly shouting about preparing every day, but amazing school powers (Foresight subschool).
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Transmutation : Has the most spells that control the flow of battle.
Conjuration : This and Transmutation are equal in power.
( I have yet to see summons work effective past low level. )
Enchantment : It ranks lower because of the amount of creatures immune to them.
Necromancy : Low ability to control the flow of battle.
Illusion : See Enchantment. And the ability to by pass most Illusions is not hard to come by.
Universalist : So you can do it all.
Divination : List me one effective combat spell. That will change the out come of a fight because it was cast.
Abjuration : Because fighting defensively is a good way to lose.
Evocation : Because you will be out damaged by every one. That is not relying on spells for damage.
There is no limit to how many times a fighter can swing a sword. The same is not true of casters. That is why evocation is at the bottom of the list. There is a limited number of times per day. There DPR can keep up with a sword, or bow. However one control spell change the battle with little effort from the wizard.
Lets look at 3rd level spells. I can tell what spell is more dangerous to me.
Wizard cast fire ball. (Ref save)
A fireball spell generates a searing explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area.
Wizard cast slow. (Will save)
An affected creature moves and attacks at a drastically slowed rate. Creatures affected by this spell are staggered and can take only a single move action or standard action each turn, but not both (nor may it take full-round actions). Additionally, it takes a –1 penalty on attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves. A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment), which affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for decreased speed.
My order is as follows:
Conjuration: many spells to control a battlefield
Necromancy: Some good spells vs a single target. I use this primarily for BBEG control and despite the belief that save or sucks..suck I have found this to be a good strategy for dealing with BBEGs.
Transmutation: Great for buffing and debuffing. Some good control spells.
Abjuration, Divination, Illusion, and Universalist are somewhere in the middle. I do not have a clear preference for any of these. However, I find they are all useful.
Evocation is next, I rarely need any of these spells.
Enchantment, I find this to be of the lowest value since so many creatures are either immune or have high will saves. I would only specialize in this if I was in a humanoid-centric campaign.
- Gauss
Baal evokers take a lot of feats and levels to get really good. You can be just as effective, by focusing less on another school. In short evocation is not that efficient without dazing spell.
...want to control a battlefield blaster mage isnt doing it,..
No, but an evoker can do it quite well.
Baal evokers take a lot of feats and levels to get really good. You can be just as effective, by focusing less on another school. In short evocation is not that efficient without dazing spell.
admixture evoker can be effective as early as lvl 5 with the right gear
admix a fireball to be frozen and use a metamagic rod of rime spell and BOOMyou dont even need to take the feats, tho it does help
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Someone asked what class I was using, its wizard no specialty.
Evokers take a lot of investment to do well, that's true.
That's a PLUS for evoker specs.
Because the other classes take very little investment to do what they do.
In short a spec evoker with investment is totally unbeatable at his shtick...putting out tons and tons of damage in AoE's for multiple rounds.
And if direct damage isn't working, he can fall back on area controls.
People keep missing the fact that the other specs are strong because of their spells...and any wizard can cast the spells. Evokers are strong because they concentrated on their shtick.
Evokers with investment are strong because their spells f'ing kill things...and even if they save against the damage, the spells at least do SOMETHING.
And by taking a completely different loadout they can pretend at being another type of wizard entirely. Other types of wizards trying to be evokers generally fail because they don't have the class features to support the damage being dealt...while you don't actually need class features to be effective with other schools.
Evokers are considerably more dangerous then people think, because all they have to do is not be an evoker when it's best not to be so.
==Aelryinth
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The thing with evokers is Admixture. It's the ability that you need to be an effective blaster (Rime, and getting around monster energy resistance/immunities). That means that an evoker can learn summon spells and be nearly as good at it as a real conjurer, but the conjurer can never get close to the evoker at blasting.
Dwarf wizard 6 point buy 20 stats and fears/traits as follow: str 13 dex 12 con 14 I.+1@ 4th wis 12 cha 8. Near with me IM posting by phone. Feats are: 1. Improved initiative ,scribe scroll 3.light armor proficiency 5. Arcane armor training , craft magic arms and armor 7. Medium armor proficiency 9. Arcane armor mastery 10. Craft wondrous item 11. Quicken spell 13. Maximize. Spell 15.craft. staff, intensify spell 17. Toughness. Traits : armor expert, adopted (elf )warrior of old.
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Frankly, I am sick to death of these threads. It's like people go out and read Treantmonks (excellent) guide then come on to the boards to take a crap on Evokers.
I personally love playing Evokers. Is it suboptimal? Probably. But then again even when I do play a blaster evoker I squeeze in control spells into my loadout whenever possible.
It would be nice that in a future supplement such as an Ultimate Magic 2 we could see some improvements. Maybe a feat that requires Intense Spells that increases damage to 1pt/level as opposed to 1pt/2 levels. Maybe some new elemental metamagic effects. Also the SR problem needs to be overcome, conjuration acid spells are too good in comparison to evocation which is supposed to be centered on damage.
The words Wizard and suck should never have to be used in the same sentence.
I think it's cute that this thread ended up revolving around Evokers. Who knew it was such a point of contention? Are Evokers as "God"-ly as Conjurers and Diviners? Well no, but to say the specialization sucks is just...
Well, I love Evokers. Huzzah. :3
Frankly, I am sick to death of these threads. It's like people go out and read Treantmonks (excellent) guide then come on to the boards to take a crap on Evokers.
I personally love playing Evokers. Is it suboptimal? Probably. But then again even when I do play a blaster evoker I squeeze in control spells into my loadout whenever possible.
It would be nice that in a future supplement such as an Ultimate Magic 2 we could see some improvements. Maybe a feat that requires Intense Spells that increases damage to 1pt/level as opposed to 1pt/2 levels. Maybe some new elemental metamagic effects. Also the SR problem needs to be overcome, conjuration acid spells are too good in comparison to evocation which is supposed to be centered on damage.
The words Wizard and suck should never have to be used in the same sentence.
i agree that im not too sure people are posting their own opinions or just buying into the myth
evokers can do a lot of good things, and they can also do things that arent evoking, conjuerers get some elongated summons and the teleportation thing is badass, but evokers get the same summoning spells
augment summoning and superior summoning are factors, for determining what school to take spell focus in, but its not impossible to be able to do both, especially in PFS where you skip out on scribing in favor of spell focus for free
Human Blaster Conjurer
lvl 1) Spell Focus(Conjuration), Spell Focus(Evocation), Improved Initiative
lvl 3) Augment Summoning
lvl 5) Superior Summoning, Rime Spell
it is possible to do more than one thing, and do it well
Frankly, I am sick to death of these threads. It's like people go out and read Treantmonks (excellent) guide then come on to the boards to take a crap on Evokers.
I personally love playing Evokers. Is it suboptimal? Probably. But then again even when I do play a blaster evoker I squeeze in control spells into my loadout whenever possible.
It would be nice that in a future supplement such as an Ultimate Magic 2 we could see some improvements. Maybe a feat that requires Intense Spells that increases damage to 1pt/level as opposed to 1pt/2 levels. Maybe some new elemental metamagic effects. Also the SR problem needs to be overcome, conjuration acid spells are too good in comparison to evocation which is supposed to be centered on damage.
The words Wizard and suck should never have to be used in the same sentence.
Wizards don't suck. It is in comparison to other options so it should be taken with a grain of salt..
It's a carryover from 3.5, where Evokers were also considered the least optimal of the specialists.
And naturally, they also underestimated the fact that when you can blow 800 pts of damage into a something on its weakest elemental resistance, or bypass that resistance, and ignore its SR,and do it repeatedly...then why do you need to Gate in a Solar?
There were some crazy wicked ways to get damage up in 3.5, and once your damage is high enough, your hammer can just go ahead and whack pretty much ANY nail. You don't need to Dominate the Monster when it's dead.
==Aelryinth
I'd probably rank it as....
Conjuration
Transmutation
Divination
Illusion
Necromancy
Enchantment
Evocation
Abjuration
Generalist
Divination is there solely due to the powerful school abilities, otherwise it would be dead last (except above generalist). Cojuration has ossibly the best spell list and possibly the best school powers. Transmutation combines possibly the best spell list with subpar school powers.
Abjuration is the worst to specialize in, IMO, because it combines the lack of great spells to fill slots with that Divination brings w/ a lack of good school powers, too. I've always been kind of annoyed w/ abjuration magic in general, because nearly everyone gets the big guns (dispel magic and greater, detect magic, resist energy), and clerics not only get almost all of the important abj. spells at the same time, they even get some of them EARLIER! You did not sack yor HD, BAB, proficiencies, and saves, and pay butt loads of money on your spellbooks just to play second fiddle to the freaking cleric!
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A lot of people are willing to argue against or for evocation, but I don't hear any debate about universalists. Their absolute inferiority seems to be the one thing everybody can agree on.
Which makes me the jerk in the room, I suppose.
Here's the thing-- playing a wizard involves a LOT of bookkeeping. A sorcerer just keeps a list of what spells she knows and a list of spells per day per level, and just keeps a running tally of what she's cast today.
The wizard needs to sit down every day and re-plan out his daily loadout, right down to the last spell, in advance. How many times will you want to cast this spell today? Or that one? Which metamagic feats do you want to apply to it?
Spell schools further complicate the issue, because you have to remember which school each of your spells is in, and which ones you know at any given level. The universalist's "ability" is that he never needs to worry about any of that, and thus his player takes less time preparing spells each day and doesn't get frustrated figuring out what his school has for him at this level and why he should've chose this or that other school. For some people, that ease of execution is worth not getting an increased duration on a certain subset of spells, or a 3+Int/day power that will cease to relevant by level 3.
Metamagic Mastery isn't too shabby either, considering it gives a wizard a little more leeway with how to prepare his spells. It's basically a free metamagic rod of whatever feats you've got.
A lot of people are willing to argue against or for evocation, but I don't hear any debate about universalists. Their absolute inferiority seems to be the one thing everybody can agree on.
Which makes me the jerk in the room, I suppose.
Here's the thing-- playing a wizard involves a LOT of bookkeeping. A sorcerer just keeps a list of what spells she knows and a list of spells per day per level, and just keeps a running tally of what she's cast today.
The wizard needs to sit down every day and re-plan out his daily loadout, right down to the last spell, in advance. How many times will you want to cast this spell today? Or that one? Which metamagic feats do you want to apply to it?
Spell schools further complicate the issue, because you have to remember which school each of your spells is in, and which ones you know at any given level. The universalist's "ability" is that he never needs to worry about any of that, and thus his player takes less time preparing spells each day and doesn't get frustrated figuring out what his school has for him at this level and why he should've chose this or that other school. For some people, that ease of execution is worth not getting an increased duration on a certain subset of spells, or a 3+Int/day power that will cease to relevant by level 3.
Metamagic Mastery isn't too shabby either, considering it gives a wizard a little more leeway with how to prepare his spells. It's basically a free metamagic rod of whatever feats you've got.
Having a specialist wizard is not really that much of a factor. It might burn a few more seconds if I forget which school a spell is in, but that is about it. I have never heard anyone complain about the difference in book keeping online or in real life. If they hate bookkeeping then generally ignore the wizard altogether.
your specialization should directly affect the way you play your wizard
conjurers summon crap then warp the hell outta there so their summons can do work
diviners make sure they go first so they get a free turn to make sure the BDF gets the most important buff before the bad guys can attack
admixers make sure they get around the ER of certain enemies, and preferably throw something else into the 'mix' to get some battlefield control going
if you only see a school for the extra spell slots you are missing the point