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While undead are very much NOT a part of the natural world (they are part of the SUPERnatural world, and many of them have specific abilities that cause creatures of nature to balk or flee or the like, such as the wraith's unnatural aura)...
...druids can still be undead. Unless they're ghosts, they'll be neutral evil druids 99.9999994% of the time. A druid can certainly become a lich or a vampire. It's far more uncommon for an undead creature to start taking levels of druid AFTER it becomes a druid. Druids that are undead generally do not keep animal companions, and most have archetypes like blight druid that are more thematic fits for their undead state.
In addition, later this year, the Worldwound 64 page campaign setting book will present stats for the siabrae, an undead druid template somewhat akin in power to the lich template; siabraes are the result of the powerful druids of Sarkoris sacrificing themselves to try to prevent the demons of the Worldwound from completely destroying one of the most sacred sites of the Green Faith. More info on them later this year!
Whelp. Hard to argue with the proverbial horse.
In addition, later this year, the Worldwound 64 page campaign setting book will present stats for the siabrae, an undead druid template somewhat akin in power to the lich template; siabraes are the result of the powerful druids of Sarkoris sacrificing themselves to try to prevent the demons of the Worldwound from completely destroying one of the most sacred sites of the Green Faith. More info on them later this year!
Not gonna lie, that sounds amazingly awesome.
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In addition, later this year, the Worldwound 64 page campaign setting book will present stats for the siabrae, an undead druid template somewhat akin in power to the lich template; siabraes are the result of the powerful druids of Sarkoris sacrificing themselves to try to prevent the demons of the Worldwound from completely destroying one of the most sacred sites of the Green Faith. More info on them later this year!Not gonna lie, that sounds amazingly awesome.
Agreed. :)
While undead are very much NOT a part of the natural world (they are part of the SUPERnatural world, and many of them have specific abilities that cause creatures of nature to balk or flee or the like, such as the wraith's unnatural aura)...
Well this is kinda of what I was getting at. Since druids are all over supernatural stuff (including extending people's lives via reincarnation, transforming into supernatural beings like outsiders, etc). I was basically noting that they were no more unnatural than anything else that is "natural" in a fantasy world with magic, positive and negative energy planes, and transforming creatures, immortal alchemists, and so forth.
It's difficult to hate undead because they're natural while Merlin is turning people to stone, and the druid is transforming into 12 ft. creatures made of planar fire. :P
I prefer hating specific undead because they're evil buggers though (like most vampires are evil).
"I cast sunburst."
"You're a vampire!"
"Yes? Look, I'm not stupid enough to put myself inside its radius of effect. I just want to take out the attacking undead."
"But you're a vampire!"
"So? Next round I'm going to cast sunbeam."
"VAMPIRE!"
"And a druid."
"VAAAAAMPIRE!!!!!!
However, once you start having undead druids, you might as well punt the whole "druids have limits" concept. I mean what the hell, wearing FRIGGIN' WORKED METAL is too "unnatural" for a druid to remain a druid, but hey, turning into lifeforce-sucking, unable to breed, undead abomination vampires is just fine.Right. Whatever.
Actually Druids can wear metal and stay Druids. You can't cast during same day but you remain a Druid.
Yet metal is more part of nature than being UNDEAD, yet somehow gets a pass?
The Druid =/= no metal thing has always been a silly rule anyhow.
Yet another developer ruling that I find utterly incomprehensible.
Metal causes druids to lose their powers. Turning undead just lets them be all kinds of awesome.
This is seriously the sort of thing that makes the rules a joke.
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Yet another developer ruling that I find utterly incomprehensible.
Metal causes druids to lose their powers. Turning undead just lets them be all kinds of awesome.
This is seriously the sort of thing that makes the rules a joke.
Yes.
Obviously the metal thing needs to be removed so there will be no more silliness.
Hm this is were the Blighter prestige class would come in handy. Not the variant, the prestige class from dnd. Blighters are evil, destructive, and more importantly hate nature. They are the mirror image of druids, they destroy nature to gain powers.
I dislike the idea of an undead druid and if one of my players wanted to continue one then they'd have to come up with a very good reason.
Oh also the Blighter gains his wild shape and animal companions as undead mockeries of life.
To me an undead druid is like a demon paladin, not impossible, but you better have a good story for it.
Yet another developer ruling that I find utterly incomprehensible.
Metal causes druids to lose their powers. Turning undead just lets them be all kinds of awesome.
This is seriously the sort of thing that makes the rules a joke.
Yes.
Obviously the metal thing needs to be removed so there will be no more silliness.
May as well.
Yet another developer ruling that I find utterly incomprehensible.
Metal causes druids to lose their powers. Turning undead just lets them be all kinds of awesome.
This is seriously the sort of thing that makes the rules a joke.
Yes.
Obviously the metal thing needs to be removed so there will be no more silliness.
If a Druid worships Melini, they can wear metal (just cuz) in FR.
Hm this is were the Blighter prestige class would come in handy. Not the variant, the prestige class from dnd. Blighters are evil, destructive, and more importantly hate nature. They are the mirror image of druids, they destroy nature to gain powers.
I dislike the idea of an undead druid and if one of my players wanted to continue one then they'd have to come up with a very good reason.
Oh also the Blighter gains his wild shape and animal companions as undead mockeries of life.
Blighters were made badly though.
They only have 1st level spells when you take 1st level of it (you have to give up Druid casting/forake nature to be one). And it requires 3rd Druid level spells (and +4 BAB) to be one as an insult (which is an insult just to give them up everything to Gain so little back).So a Druid who wants to be one must be 6th level Druidto be one Then at 7th level, you become Blighter one and can cast 1st level spells (3 levels behind all full casters).
It should have been take able by 3rd level (2nd level spells) since nothing it gives is worth giving up everything.
"Druids who lose 6 levels of class features and have to burn down a forest to regain their spells. In a desert? Too bad. Underwater? You're SOL."
What does 6th level Druid give up:
1) nature sense, 2) wild empathy, 3) woodland stride, 4) trackless step, 5) resist nature's lure, and 6) wild shape (2/day)* as well as 7) an animal companion* and 8) all of your spells. These are all gone once you step into the shoes of a Blighter, and you'll never be able to atone for your misgivings if you want to regenerate your daily share of blighter spells. Now, with the loss of 6 levels worth of spells and a bunch of great class abilities, one would think that their first level of blighter would be good?
"But it's really not. As a blighter, your BAB and saves progression are no different from the Druid, and your first level is purely your spellcasting (level 1 spells max) and your daily method of getting spellcasting back. This is instead of gaining wild shape 3/day (or mobility in your flight form, if using the PHBII wildshape variant) and level 4 spell access. You are now 5 nifty class features down, 3 spell levels down, one animal companion short, and completely devoid of the Druid's wild shape shenanigans."
This guy tried to redesign it: it is basically better http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198309
Well, another straight fix: An idea is to give Blighters the option to trade in Druid levels, sort of like Paladin-to-Blackguard. A 6th-level Druid may not get anything special, but a 17th-level Druid is a prized catch for the forces of decay.
This isn't too bad, spell-likes instead of spells/day: http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=244820
If a Druid worships Melini, they can wear metal (just cuz) in FR.Yet another developer ruling that I find utterly incomprehensible.
Metal causes druids to lose their powers. Turning undead just lets them be all kinds of awesome.
This is seriously the sort of thing that makes the rules a joke.
Yes.
Obviously the metal thing needs to be removed so there will be no more silliness.
Yep Starbuck, it's that famous rigorous adherence to the rules without making arbitrary exceptions "just cuz" that gives PF such credibility in the gaming world.
Who needs any Paladin code anyway? It just gets in the way of awesomeness.
Who needs any Paladin code anyway? It just gets in the way of awesomeness.
Agreed.
Who needs any Paladin code anyway? It just gets in the way of awesomeness.Agreed.
This weekend my full plate wearing, chaotic good vampire druid will be joining one buddy's lawful good ghast assassin and my other buddy's chaotic evil lich paladin on a quest to kidnap, torture and eventually kill the 10 year old princess so that they can extort the king to grant the undead full voting rights.
It's a civil rights themed campaign and there will be all kinds of fun when the rest of the party learns the paladin is secretly plotting against them. Unless he backstabs them first.
Can't wait.
The undead druid war seal again leaves his bloody paw print apon the realm.
This weekend my full plate wearing, chaotic good vampire druid will be joining one buddy's lawful good ghast assassin and my other buddy's chaotic evil lich paladin on a quest to kidnap, torture and eventually kill the 10 year old princess so that they can extort the king to grant the undead full voting rights.Who needs any Paladin code anyway? It just gets in the way of awesomeness.Agreed.
I gotta say, the ghast assassin and the chaotic good vampire druid are in a strange place in that plot. I'd be expecting them to be protecting the 10 year old princess from the chaotic evil lich paladin (these guys actually existed in both 3.x and Pathfinder as Blackguards and Antipaladins, both of which are capable of being liches in Pathfinder with no real issues). That being said, a chaotic good vampire druid and the ghast assassin would probably be pretty good guardians for a 10 year old princess (at the very least they can stand toe to toe with the lich paladin without getting thrashed by his natural attacks or fear aura; though the smite good would probably be a risky business).
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Creative Director
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Yet another developer ruling that I find utterly incomprehensible.
Metal causes druids to lose their powers. Turning undead just lets them be all kinds of awesome.
This is seriously the sort of thing that makes the rules a joke.
Good thing you get to change the rules that you don't like then!
Good thing you get to change the rules that you don't like then!Yet another developer ruling that I find utterly incomprehensible.
Metal causes druids to lose their powers. Turning undead just lets them be all kinds of awesome.
This is seriously the sort of thing that makes the rules a joke.
Nothing quite like the Creative Director of the game company I play pulling the "Rule Zero Fallacy" on me to justify arbitrary nonsense in the rules.
Nice to see that your idea of a good game design is that anyone can just ignore whatever they like James. Of course anyone can ignore any rules for any game if they aren't playing in some sort of sanctioned tournament or organized play.
Like, oh, I dunno, PFS for example...
I gotta say, the ghast assassin and the chaotic good vampire druid are in a strange place in that plot. I'd be expecting them to be protecting the 10 year old princess from the chaotic evil lich paladin (these guys actually existed in both 3.x and Pathfinder as Blackguards and Antipaladins, both of which are capable of being liches in Pathfinder with no real issues). That being said, a chaotic good vampire druid and the ghast assassin would probably be pretty good guardians for a 10 year old princess (at the very least they can stand toe to toe with the lich paladin without getting thrashed by his natural attacks or fear aura; though the smite good would probably be a risky business).
Bolded the parts where you are harshing my creativity Ashiel.
I gotta say, the ghast assassin and the chaotic good vampire druid are in a strange place in that plot. I'd be expecting them to be protecting the 10 year old princess from the chaotic evil lich paladin (these guys actually existed in both 3.x and Pathfinder as Blackguards and Antipaladins, both of which are capable of being liches in Pathfinder with no real issues). That being said, a chaotic good vampire druid and the ghast assassin would probably be pretty good guardians for a 10 year old princess (at the very least they can stand toe to toe with the lich paladin without getting thrashed by his natural attacks or fear aura; though the smite good would probably be a risky business).Bolded the parts where you are harshing my creativity Ashiel.
Nay sir, no harshing. I said what I would expect. It seems odd to me that the good characters would be trying to assassinate a 10 year old princess (or a ten year old at all) but nothing is stopping either of those from doing so and I don't have any further backstory that would suggest how the events are transpiring or what their plan is.
I merely commented that it wasn't what I would have expected. I'm very familiar with undead PCs or undead good guys. They're much like living good guys except with more negative energy instead of positive energy, and most tend to have insomnia. :P
In truth, I think undead protectors are a wonderful trope. Paladins make exceptionally good candidates for undeath from a narrative perspective (they are the sorts I'd see most likely putting off their final rest to continue to champion goodness or to stand vigilant against an ancient evil for a long time). Having fallen in love with the movie Vampire Hunter D early in life (pre-teenage years), I had a certain appreciation for the archetype of the distant undead guardian or hunter of evil.
Though I took your post in jest (it seemed satirical), if you're serious don't let me rain on your parade. As JJ often says, it's your game. :D
Nothing quite like the Creative Director of the game company I play pulling the "Rule Zero Fallacy" on me to justify arbitrary nonsense in the rules.
Nice to see that your idea of a good game design is that anyone can just ignore whatever they like James. Of course anyone can ignore any rules for any game if they aren't playing in some sort of sanctioned tournament or organized play.
Like, oh, I dunno, PFS for example...
Well what else do you want him to say?
The more blunt "Yeah sorry you don't agree with the rules we laid down, but tough noogies"?
I happen to like the fact that a character isn't precluded from being a certain class just because they're an Undead, and I'm sure others do too. You can't please everyone, so in effect "Change it if you don't like it, also don't play PFS if you don't like the rules as written" is pretty much all he can say.
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Nothing quite like the Creative Director of the game company I play pulling the "Rule Zero Fallacy" on me to justify arbitrary nonsense in the rules.
This isn't really a case of the rule zero fallacy though. Rule zero fallacy applies when a rule system doesn't work as intended or is lacking in effect (Prone shooter does nothing? Fix it yourself then!) is a rule zero fallacy.
When the issue is that you disagree with the design of the rules in relation to the world, or when you disagree with design choices based on the world itself (You don't like guns in your fantasy game? Then don't play with them!), it's not a rule zero fallacy.
EDIT: Basically, if you think the rules don't do their job and the response is "then house rule!" that's a fallacy, but if you just don't like what their job is then it isn't.
That said, I don't like that ruling either; in my world, undead druids generally won't exist (I might do an exception for a PC if it a) shows a fair bit of self-loathing while in that unnatural state and b) works towards curing herself and c) uses her vampiric powers as little as possible). If an NPC or PC gets vampirised I'd much rather let them swap levels to some cleric of a nature god, that I have no issues with. But druids in my worlds get their powers directly from their connection with nature, and that's generally cut off if they're undead.
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Yet another developer ruling that I find utterly incomprehensible.
Metal causes druids to lose their powers. Turning undead just lets them be all kinds of awesome.
This is seriously the sort of thing that makes the rules a joke.
The metal does not stop you from being a druid though. Losing powers, and losing membership(becoming an ex-druid) are two vastly differently things.
Without checking the book you probably need to atone if you want to become a druid again.
IMHO, a vampire druid actually makes a lot of sense. If anything, I would imagine that a druid would probably be the best sort of person to be infected with vampirism. Druids are already comfortable with the idea of balance and not abusing what the world gives you, and are already in tune with being predatory creatures.
A druid vampire would probably already have the correct mindset to already be aware of the natural urge to hunt (druids of 5th+ level presumably are quite comfortable transforming into all sorts of predators and living amongst them) while also having the respect of balance to not give in to over indulgence (druids are about balance, so no over-logging, over-populating, over-hunting, etc). Which means that if I was to have to pick someone to be affected with vampirism (or lycanthropy) I'd probably try to find a well-intentioned druid; simply because I'd think their nature already leaves them poised to be ready for such a transformation.
Given the link to animals that vampires are attributed in D&D/PF (they consort with bats, wolves, etc), some legends of vampires transforming into animals, as well as their natural predatory nature...well I think that a sect of vampire-druids would fit nicely in most any campaign. At least such a sect of druids would be hesitant to overpopulate or depopulate the local region with their blood sucking and stalking.
Evil druids likely already stalk and kill people anyway (probably influences many of the folktales about highly intelligent packs of wolves or great animals that are maneaters with exceptional cunning). So not much would change if the druid was evil. If the druid was Neutral or Good though, hey, you can survive with a little blood drained. :)
On the subject of druids and metal, I always figured it was probably centered around the same mysticism or lore about worked metal being disruptive. Kind of how fey are vulnerable to cold iron. Based on the description of the mechanics, druids seem to have no prohibitions against wearing metal armor. Merely that it interferes with their magics in some way (wearing it cuts the druid off from their magic for a period of time but doesn't even require they atone for it). It seems strange, and perhaps arbitrary, and honestly I wouldn't miss it if it were gone (it's not a balancing feature 'cause druids can already wear alternatives for reasonable costs, such as dragonscale).
So basically "because the rule doesn't say" we totally ignore the concept and fluff of the class?
Vampires are not a part of the natural order.
On the contrary, it's a combination of "the rules don't say", "there's existing precedent in the fluff", and "direct Paizo staff commentary says it's possible".
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On the contrary, it's a combination of "the rules don't say", "there's existing precedent in the fluff", and "direct Paizo staff commentary says it's possible".So basically "because the rule doesn't say" we totally ignore the concept and fluff of the class?
Vampires are not a part of the natural order.
Oh, kind of like that NPC who was using Spring Attack and Vital Strike together?
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People seem to be ignoring, or forgetting, that the Negative Material Plane is, inherently, part of the greater nature of the planes.
Pretty much this right here. The Negative Energy Plane is no more or less 'unnatural' to the D&D/PF cosmology than the Positive Energy Plane. If creatures nurtured by negative energy are 'unnatural,' then so to are all living creatures, similarly nurtured and sustained by yet another energy source from another dimension entirely, and inhabited by spirits that similarly travel to other planes when their bodies die.
If Druids were incompatible with creatures whose essential natures are derived from other planes, they wouldn't get along with fey, or elementals, both of which they like just fine, despite those creatures being 'unnatural' to the material world, just visiting from their own home dimensions.
The alien ecologies of some aberrations might prove more problematic than undead, which are just another step in the life-death-rebirth cycle they so honor, and tied together with the seasonal connections (particularly harvest festivals and 'days of the dead'), to many Druids.
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Yet another developer ruling that I find utterly incomprehensible.
Metal causes druids to lose their powers. Turning undead just lets them be all kinds of awesome.
This is seriously the sort of thing that makes the rules a joke.
Yes.
Obviously the metal thing needs to be removed so there will be no more silliness.
How about remove the capability to be undead silliness and keep what actually fits the class thematically?
How about remove the capability to be undead silliness and keep what actually fits the class thematically?
People have explained already how being Undead and being a Druid are thematically compatible.
You don't like it, ban it in your games.
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People seem to be ignoring, or forgetting, that the Negative Material Plane is, inherently, part of the greater nature of the planes.Pretty much this right here. The Negative Energy Plane is no more or less 'unnatural' to the D&D/PF cosmology than the Positive Energy Plane. If creatures nurtured by negative energy are 'unnatural,' then so to are all living creatures, similarly nurtured and sustained by yet another energy source from another dimension entirely, and inhabited by spirits that similarly travel to other planes when their bodies die.
If Druids were incompatible with creatures whose essential natures are derived from other planes, they wouldn't get along with fey, or elementals, both of which they like just fine.
The alien ecologies of some aberrations might prove more problematic than undead, which are just another step in the life-death-rebirth cycle they so honor, and tied together with the seasonal connections (particularly harvest festivals and 'days of the dead'), to many Druids.
Just because the negative energy plane exists doesn't automatically make it natural. Chuuls exist but they aren't natural creatures, same goes with cities.
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How about remove the capability to be undead silliness and keep what actually fits the class thematically?People have explained already how being Undead and being a Druid are thematically compatible.
You don't like it, ban it in your games.
You can explain that 2 + 2 = 6 all day long but that doesn't mean it makes sense.
So basically "because the rule doesn't say" we totally ignore the concept and fluff of the class?
Vampires are not a part of the natural order.
I don't see any fluff backing up what you say. Yeah druids don't like undead, but that does not equal "undead can not be druids". Maybe undead druids don't like other undead either, but I don't see how that would stop an undead druid from using his new abilities to continue his former role.
A polar bear or whale living in the middle of a sandy desert is also unnatural.
Only if someone put it there on purpose. In fact, the polar bear's natural habitats are deserts. I'd give you the whale, as I can't see a whale taking a few wrong turns and ending up in a desert of any kind, only under one.
You could say the same of a druid. If it seeks out undeath it does something unnatural. If it just happens to him/her, tough luck now find a way to cope with it.
Oh, kind of like that NPC who was using Spring Attack and Vital Strike together?On the contrary, it's a combination of "the rules don't say", "there's existing precedent in the fluff", and "direct Paizo staff commentary says it's possible".So basically "because the rule doesn't say" we totally ignore the concept and fluff of the class?
Vampires are not a part of the natural order.
That was a rules error.
What the other poster listed was a string of positives for it to happen. You feel being undead cuts something off from nature. Other of us don't. In short you read the fluff differently from the way the rest of us do. Even the guy responsible for the flavor thinks its ok.
You can explain that 2 + 2 = 6 all day long but that doesn't mean it makes sense.
Indeed.
But as that's not what anyone is explaining, I'd suggest you go back and re-read the other 143 posts until it does make sense to you.
Note: "I dun like it" is not the same as "It makes no sense". Remember to keep that in mind.
Just because the negative energy plane exists doesn't automatically make it natural. Chuuls exist but they aren't natural creatures, same goes with cities.People seem to be ignoring, or forgetting, that the Negative Material Plane is, inherently, part of the greater nature of the planes.Pretty much this right here. The Negative Energy Plane is no more or less 'unnatural' to the D&D/PF cosmology than the Positive Energy Plane. If creatures nurtured by negative energy are 'unnatural,' then so to are all living creatures, similarly nurtured and sustained by yet another energy source from another dimension entirely, and inhabited by spirits that similarly travel to other planes when their bodies die.
If Druids were incompatible with creatures whose essential natures are derived from other planes, they wouldn't get along with fey, or elementals, both of which they like just fine.
The alien ecologies of some aberrations might prove more problematic than undead, which are just another step in the life-death-rebirth cycle they so honor, and tied together with the seasonal connections (particularly harvest festivals and 'days of the dead'), to many Druids.
The negative energy plane is one of the plane that makes up the universe in fantasyland. Chuuls are a poor comparison.
You can explain that 2 + 2 = 6 all day long but that doesn't mean it makes sense.How about remove the capability to be undead silliness and keep what actually fits the class thematically?People have explained already how being Undead and being a Druid are thematically compatible.
You don't like it, ban it in your games.
It is only 6 in "your" world. You have yet to provide flavor or mechanics that states why undead can't tap into the divine force that druids can. Not natural, and "incapable of connecting with nature" are not the same thing. So far there is nothing to support the latter. If vampires could not be druid then they should not be allowed to be rangers since both classes tap into the same force, just on a different scale.
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People seem to be ignoring, or forgetting, that the Negative Material Plane is, inherently, part of the greater nature of the planes.Pretty much this right here. The Negative Energy Plane is no more or less 'unnatural' to the D&D/PF cosmology than the Positive Energy Plane. If creatures nurtured by negative energy are 'unnatural,' then so to are all living creatures, similarly nurtured and sustained by yet another energy source from another dimension entirely, and inhabited by spirits that similarly travel to other planes when their bodies die.
If Druids were incompatible with creatures whose essential natures are derived from other planes, they wouldn't get along with fey, or elementals, both of which they like just fine, despite those creatures being 'unnatural' to the material world, just visiting from their own home dimensions.
The alien ecologies of some aberrations might prove more problematic than undead, which are just another step in the life-death-rebirth cycle they so honor, and tied together with the seasonal connections (particularly harvest festivals and 'days of the dead'), to many Druids.
The thing is, with that line of reasoning, everything is natural, exactly everything, because everything exists in some way in the cosmology. Then a lot of the druid fluff becomes meaningless - "devotion to a nature deity" might as well be any deity at all, and worship of nature itself might as well be worship of some worldeating monstrosity that seeks to end all of creation. Because those all exist in the cosmology and are by that definition natural.
I think "natural" implies more than just "part of the cosmology", and previous editions of D&D seemed more explicit about it.
