Except Blood Drain is not an Undead only ability. Leeches have it as well.
It's an Ex ability for them but has much the same effect, except it does half and half Str/Con damage instead of straight Con.
And what are you talking about "mistakes are made"?
And what are you talking about "mistakes are made"?
He is assuming it never should have seen print.
Energy drain is had by some outsiders also. :)
It is not just for undead.
vampiric blood drain is a SU ability for a reason and causes straight con dmg for a reason as well.
Undead are no longer of nature thay are outside of it no matter how much they try to mimmic it they are only going through the motions.
"In an official Paizo AP, there is a Vampire Druid." is what i was talking about wen I said "No one is infalable, mistakes are made."
outsiders are still of nature no matter how twisted or warped but undead however are completely seperate from it.
outsiders are still of nature no matter how twisted or warped but undead however are completely seperate from it.
Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces. An undead creature has the following features.
Ex-Druids
A druid who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a nondruid loses all spells and druid abilities (including her animal companion, but not including weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She cannot thereafter gain levels as a druid until she atones (see the atonement spell description).
Being outside of nature is not a rules-legal means of becoming an ex-druid.
outsiders are still of nature no matter how twisted or warped but undead however are completely seperate from it.
So things like Demons, which want to kill/maim/rape/destroy/burn all of existence are closer to nature than a living corpse that otherwise is free to do whatever it wants, including revere nature, as long as it drinks some blood (even animal blood) every now and then?
"In an official Paizo AP, there is a Vampire Druid." is what i was talking about wen I said "No one is infalable, mistakes are made."
Ah, of course. I forgot that in Zotpok-land Zotpox's opinion is always right and therefore trumps something directly from the creators of the game.
Silly me.
Being outside of nature aka becoming undead should be a rules-legal means of becoming an ex-druid, that it is not is a simple oversight.
Being outside of nature aka becoming undead should be a rules-legal means of becoming an ex-druid, that is not is a simple oversight.
Regardless of whether you think it should be or not, it isn't.
I don't believe it should be.
Rynjin wrote:
So things like Demons, which want to kill/maim/rape/destroy/burn all of existence are closer to nature than a living corpse that otherwise is free to do whatever it wants, including revere nature, as long as it drinks some blood (even animal blood) every now and then?
Correct Sir!!!
I run my games as i see fit. I have been told that Zotpox land is quite nice.
Regardless of your opinion of my opinion I will still not allow undead to be druids in my games for the reasions previously stated and sighted.
Zotpox-land does not receive the Rynjin seal of approval
And we all know I have the cutest seals on hand at all times so that's pretty important
And on the 8th day Zotpox rested and it was good, thus the undead druid war seal was formed and released apon the multiverse.
Things like plagues and natural disasters, while obviously negative, are still a part of soem natural order in a world where nature is an abstract, practically religious force. Undead on the other hand are literally the antitesis of life and living things. They react to positive and negative energies in a way opposite to how living things act.
Frankly I'm in the "vampires automatically become psychopaths when they turn" camp because that's what makes vampirism and fighting vampires scary.
But in game terms, they only become totally psycho when the GM takes control of them as NPCs or directs the player to go crazy with it.
The question that started the thread would seem to indicate the GM is allowing the player to continue playing the character without forcing a total personality shift.
If that is the case, I see no reason to revoke the druid's classes automatically. However, I do think it would make a very, very cool plot point to send other nature servants, such as rangers and druids, out after the guy, trying to kill him as an "abomination."
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A vampire druid won't have it easy, that's sure. He's closer to falling off the druid wagon that living druids, he's got to deal with unnatural urges he needs to keep in check. Angsty. I mean, he's Evil, so he has to work hard at not also becoming Chaotic or Neutral, because that would be Too Much.
But I think just having an ability (energy drain) and actually using it, are two separate things. If he uses it, that's going against nature. If he merely has it, that's just kinda creepy. Similar to how a human can know how to make Agent Orange, and actually doing it.
I think the druid order from Nidal, which was referenced earlier, is a great example in this case. Those druids may not be undead themselves but they actually raise the undead, which I think is a lot worse than accidentally turning undead, yet they remain druids. So why would nature spirits that accept it when you make zombies not accept a vampire revering nature? Similarly, there are druid who worship entities like Cyth-V'Sug and want to cover the world in fungus and rot, which destroys your average life, and still have access to druid powers. Maybe they simply found a way to take their powers from nature instead of it being given to them? Would mean others would want to "correct" them though.
As for the undead, druids making unintelligent undead actually isn't that weird to me. Just flavor it as either a corpse infested with maggots(zombie) or vines covering a skeleton(skeleton) where the druid controls the maggots/vines. Wouldn't even be truly evil, just recycling (if that isn't pro-nature)
Negative energy is also a part of the natural world/universe, and is no more against nature than positive energy. It just normally has negative(not good) side affects, and is normally used for bad things, but it is not inherently evil or unnatural.
Nothing in 3.5 or Pathfinder states that negative energy which powers undead is unnatural.
Daemons are worse than undead, and nobody has made a case against them. They actually seek to destroy life..
Daemon
Harbingers of ruin and embodiments of the worst ways to die, daemons epitomize painful death, the all-consuming hunger of evil, and the utter annihilation of life.
The sole purpose of their existence is to end life.
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Outsiders are outside nature. Druids should be wary of them. Some of them are okay (elementals, kami), some are too pushy and their well-intentioned interventions, meant to make life nicer for people, may upset the natural balance (angels), while others may impose a rigidity that's unnatural (inevitables) or dissolve nature's stability (proteans). Some are inimical to life and existence (most evil outsiders).
Nature isn't nice, nor is it necessarily playing fair. So while undead in general are not natural, that doesn't mean nature can't use them; nature is adaptive. It will take whatever it comes across and use it.
I know its forgotten realms but Jander Sunstar? Not a druid but not an entirely evil dude either
F***ing Twilight!
Vampires are not cuddly or reverent. They don't sparkle. Twilight is not a love story. Twilight is a story of a codependent teenager and a 200-something year old who takes advantage of her naiveté for his own ends.
Vampires are horrible undead monsters that are fueled by the anti-life plane (neg energy) feed off life forces of others.
They are not human, broody, lovesick, or kind. They're the shark from jaws if that shark was also undead.
I think the druid order from Nidal, which was referenced earlier, is a great example in this case. Those druids may not be undead themselves but they actually raise the undead, which I think is a lot worse than accidentally turning undead, yet they remain druids.They're not druids despite what they call themselves, despite what they may have been once, as raising the dead is not part of any druidic power. What they are, is an expression of the corruption that infects the nation thanks to Big Daddy Z-K. Any real druid would happily put them down if he got the chance.
Yet they're still druid, as testified by the Shade of Uskwood feat, which while not requiring Druid levels adds spells to the Druid list. The fact that they don't play nice with other druids doesn't mean anything. There are druids devoted to demon lords and other such beings (associated with some twisted aspect of nature) so why can't they venerate Zon'Kuthon? Nature hurts and imposes hardship upon everything so I don't see why not. As for the undead, it's unintelligent ones only so just the body and the spirit is left alone, I'd call that recycling.
A druid simply is a divine caster who reveres nature or an aspect of nature and either gains or takes power from that. Whether that aspect is cuddly kittens or creeping fungus does not matter.
Outsiders are outside nature.
Where is that stated at?
Nature is more than the material plane.
Negative energy is also a part of the natural world/universe, and is no more against nature than positive energyOk, to make it simpler natural=biological. A human or other natural creature is born, grows and dies.
An undead creature is an unnaturally reanimated corpse. Nothing about it is natural - it does not grow, it has (dead) lungs so does not breath, it has a heart which does not beat, it has no blood, its brain is dead and still it can think, its eyes are dead but it can still see.
If that is not unnatural then I don't know what you can use the word unnatural to describe!
What about outsiders? They are immortal. Some fey are known to be immortal. They are not born, and they don't die, unless killed, and fey are very much a part of nature. The tarrasque can't die of old age. It is a magical beast.
Dead does not equal unnatural.
Also not all undead are corpses. Some are incorporeal.
Nightshades are neither corpses nor incorporeal.
Negative energy is also a part of the natural world/universe, and is no more against nature than positive energyOk, to make it simpler natural=biological. A human or other natural creature is born, grows and dies.
An undead creature is an unnaturally reanimated corpse. Nothing about it is natural - it does not grow, it has (dead) lungs so does not breath, it has a heart which does not beat, it has no blood, its brain is dead and still it can think, its eyes are dead but it can still see.
If that is not unnatural then I don't know what you can use the word unnatural to describe!
Vampires do have blood. Not always their own I'll admit, but they do have blood. :P
I use unnatural to mean abberations like 3.5 beholder, Aboleths, Mindflayers.
F***ing Twilight!
Vampires are not cuddly or reverent. They don't sparkle. Twilight is not a love story. Twilight is a story of a codependent teenager and a 200-something year old who takes advantage of her naiveté for his own ends.
Vampires are horrible undead monsters that are fueled by the anti-life plane (neg energy) feed off life forces of others.
They are not human, broody, lovesick, or kind. They're the shark from jaws if that shark was also undead.
While I also, quite rightly, abhor Twilight, et. al., a critique of that series belongs in some other forum entirely...
I'm not suggesting that vampires are "cuddly."
Reverence, however, is within their repertoire.
And nothing about vampirism ruins one for being a druid. The state of undeath is not "unnatural," just unusual. So, the metaphor about being sharks? Uh, predators are very natural, and nothing requires a druid to be a PLEASANT part of the world...
The twilight rant was for demonstration purposes.
The bolded part is where you and I disagree.
Some settings do have positive energy based undead,that are good. :)
Cheese weasel,
I hear and understand everythign you're saying. However, I disagree. Undead are not part of nature. Entropy is part of nature, but undead are not entropy.
Cheeseweasel, not only are undead not "pockets of entropy" undead are the very antithesis of entropy. Entropy is the property of the universe that leads systems to go from a more ordered to a less ordered state. Decay is part of entropy, and by halting the process of decay "undeath" actually halts the process of entropy.
This is why it's called "undeath" in the first place. Druids are dedicated to the circle of life, and that circle is broken by undeath. Undead are those creatures which have been separated from the circle of life.
Cheeseweasel, not only are undead not "pockets of entropy" undead are the very antithesis of entropy. Entropy is the property of the universe that leads systems to go from a more ordered to a less ordered state. Decay is part of entropy, and by halting the process of decay "undeath" actually halts the process of entropy.
This is why it's called "undeath" in the first place. Druids are dedicated to the circle of life, and that circle is broken by undeath. Undead are those creatures which have been separated from the circle of life.
^^this^^
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Cheeseweasel, not only are undead not "pockets of entropy" undead are the very antithesis of entropy. Entropy is the property of the universe that leads systems to go from a more ordered to a less ordered state. Decay is part of entropy, and by halting the process of decay "undeath" actually halts the process of entropy.
This is why it's called "undeath" in the first place. Druids are dedicated to the circle of life, and that circle is broken by undeath. Undead are those creatures which have been separated from the circle of life.
So if a zombie is allowed to slowly rot away it's ok? Not saying undead are part of nature (in general they aren't) but that doesn't mean they can't be druids. Could an awakened construct become a druid? They are just as unnatural as undead, if not more so (sure, clay/stone/some other golems are made of natural bits, but so is a vampire).
As to the natural=biological thing, that elementals are not natural either and I believe the entire idea behind them is that they are exemplars of bits of "purified" nature.
One thing that is being forgotten here in some of these comments is that druids are made, not born. A character does not spontaneously manifest the properties of a druid. Perhaps more than any other class druids are created by existing druids. Part of becoming a druid is learning the druid language.
So "can a construct become a druid" means "would existing druids train a construct to become a druid?"
The conversation of an existing druid turning undead is different, in that case the newly created vampire was already a druid. But an awakened construct can't just choose to become a druid. Some druid or druids have to take him/her/it under their wing and presumably convince the existing druid order to allow it.
Not all druids are a part of orders, and there is no rule saying a druid needs the permission of other druids to train a new druid.
Even though you have a point about someone needing to train the construct, that does not change the question of whether or not it can be done.
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Not all druids are a part of orders, and there is no rule saying a druid needs the permission of other druids to train a new druid.
Even though you have a point about someone needing to train the construct, that does not change the question of whether or not it can be done.
It sure changes the odds though Wraith.
This is the sort of thing that bewilders me. The very asking of the question of whether turning undead would be a problem for druids demonstrates that it's clearly a strange situation that many people would find difficult to explain.
Of course "but .... dragons" always applies.
However, once you start having undead druids, you might as well punt the whole "druids have limits" concept. I mean what the hell, wearing FRIGGIN' WORKED METAL is too "unnatural" for a druid to remain a druid, but hey, turning into lifeforce-sucking, unable to breed, undead abomination vampires is just fine.
Right. Whatever.
To go back to what I said before, I think that as long as the role playing is done properly it shouldn't be a problem. Undead druids would hate themselves and be horribly depressed and think of themselves as an unholy abomination. Maybe they should also fight to resist becoming evil and what not, but it all depends on the type of undead, and the means by which the druid becomes undead. Druid ghost I can imagine would still hold all of it's prior values and alignment. Druid vampire would struggle with internal conflict for all eternity. I imagine that the druidic sources of their power would be a little relaxed on the druid and not punish him for an affliction he suffered against his will.
Is anyone here familiar with Magic the Gathering's Golgari?
They are a guild of nature-and-undeath loving druids. Their theme is about recycling and renewing the dead, and often use undead to propogate life (carrying spores/seeds/etc to new locations, planting things in rotting zombies).
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Undead probably are unnatural if anything is unnatural. (One could argue that anything is natural or it couldn't exist.)
On the other hand, druids aren't required by the rules to 'be' natural, only to revere nature. Choosing to become a vampire would not be revering nature. But being turned into a vampire against your will wouldn't mean you didn't still care for nature in some form.
Undead probably are unnatural if anything is unnatural. (One could argue that anything is natural or it couldn't exist.)
On the other hand, druids aren't required by the rules to 'be' natural, only to revere nature. Choosing to become a vampire would not be revering nature. But being turned into a vampire against your will wouldn't mean you didn't still care for nature in some form.
While I am utterly against the idea of an undead druid, this is probably the strongest argument for an undead druid I've seen.
Still, druids take very specific and encompassing oaths to maintain their power. Their magic is partially from a god (setting dependent) and partially from an unyielding devotion to nature and the cycles of life. Failing this or even donning a worked metal item is enough to revoke their magic temporarily.
I seem to remember a lot of information about druids hating the unnatural, which always boiled down to two creature types: undead and aberrations. The problem here is that Paizo has actually written both of these out with archetypes. Naga Aspirants actually become "true" naga through progression of the druid class, and Blight druids can actually create undead or select undead familiars without any awkward manipulation of the rules. Samsaran can also do this, but I don't feel that's worth exploring. The biggest problem here is that Naga Aspirants & Blight Druids aren't presented as anti-druids or specific exceptions. Just like any other archetype, they're just a regular expansion of the base rules.
The fact remains: nothing in the Pathfinder rule system, as it's presented to us (ignoring fluff & adventure paths), says that druids can't be undead. In fact, it's even partially supported (see above) that they can defy their "I love nature" to some degree and still function as a complete druid.
My personal opinion is that a druid should not be able to create, conjure, or consort with undead or aberrations as they are affronts to the natural cycle. I feel that this should also apply to the druid himself. It's very similar to the expectations of a paladin in my book.
However, at the end of the day, the rules are silent on the subject and occasionally even support the idea.
Not all druids are a part of orders, and there is no rule saying a druid needs the permission of other druids to train a new druid.
Even though you have a point about someone needing to train the construct, that does not change the question of whether or not it can be done.
It sure changes the odds though Wraith.
This is the sort of thing that bewilders me. The very asking of the question of whether turning undead would be a problem for druids demonstrates that it's clearly a strange situation that many people would find difficult to explain.
Of course "but .... dragons" always applies.
However, once you start having undead druids, you might as well punt the whole "druids have limits" concept. I mean what the hell, wearing FRIGGIN' WORKED METAL is too "unnatural" for a druid to remain a druid, but hey, turning into lifeforce-sucking, unable to breed, undead abomination vampires is just fine.
Right. Whatever.
Magic is strange and does not make sense. Also, I don't see anything in the rules to stop a vampire druid, nor anything in the flavor that stops it just because they are undead. Now if they change their motivations while becoming undead I can understand, but I see no reason why a druid could not be a lich, due to being misguided. It would be a great tragic villain.
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Let's assume that when you turn vampire, your alignment immediately shifts to Evil. Does your Lawful/Chaotic tendency also shift? If not, then a Lawful Neutral druid would become a Lawful Evil vampire => not a druid. But a Neutral, NE or NG druid would become a NE vampire druid.
So basically, "revering nature" is a much more delicate mental balancing act for a vampire druid.
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Nothing about being undead is either unnatural, nor is there anything about being undead that is forbidden by the druid's ethos according to the class. Seems legit.
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Nothing about being undead is either unnatural, nor is there anything about being undead that is forbidden by the druid's ethos according to the class. Seems legit.
Either or
Neither nor
I'm still firmly in the undead are unnatural camp.
Sting gears slightly could you have an abomination Druid? In my mind they are equally unnatural,
I'm still firmly in the undead are unnatural camp.
Sting gears slightly could you have an abomination Druid? In my mind they are equally unnatural,
When you say abomination, do you mean aberration? If so, I totally agree. I touched on this in my post above, but I don't see anywhere that this sort of thing translated into pathfinder. In fact, I only see examples of how it's been ignored.