personally I dont see why a spontaneous caster would use metamagic feats for casting, except maybe quicken, and I don't know about that one at all... +4 is harsh...
Cleric vs Oracle?
Wizard vs Sorc?Who cares. They both get 9th level spells! Its like asking whats worse... getting hit by a 9.5 earthquake or a Nuke... either way your dead.
I like this comparison.
Are wizards/clerics better than sorcs/oracles? Yeah, probably. However, they can perform much the same devastatingly powerful role that you might as well screw the theoretical "optimal" class and choose your favorite style. Having fun is the true victory, as much of the forum is wont to say.
*random side note* I prefer playing Wizards over Sorcerers, yet oddly enough prefer Oracles over Clerics.
Well, the universalist caster actually gets the easiest time using MM, although for miniscule amounts/day...
And actually, normal specialists and clerics don't dominate on spells/day, Ashiel. They do slightly better at lower levels, but at later ones the spells/day of sorcs just pull ahead and away...and that's with nerfing their high level spell slots to a lower maximum!
The only class that stays ahead of sorcs is the Thassilonian double spec, and they end up with the same amount as sorcs, only they get their spells sooner levelling.
Pearls of Power and scrolls are nice for low level spells. But if you use those, you have to use the fact sorcs can buy those scrolls, and there are magic items that increase a Sorc's spells known and spell slots (the Ring of Wizardry being one, and what IS the name of those pearls that increase spells known?).
And lastly, there is the incredible power of the human sorc to increase spells known with FC benefits, and the half-elven sorc to access any spell they want to with a racial spell.
On the other side, Wizards with arcane bond can instantly access any spell in their spellbooks, which is absolutely great for 'i need it NOW' scenarios.
==Aelryinth
personally I dont see why a spontaneous caster would use metamagic feats for casting, except maybe quicken, and I don't know about that one at all... +4 is harsh...
Quicken is awesome...two spells a round can be absolutely devastating in combination. True Strike + Kill Spell, for example. Stinking Cloud quick followed by force cage, etc.
Also, a quickened spell never triggers an AoO, a nice little side benefit.
heighten spell means you can take a low level spell that is appropriate for the situation and make it harder to resist by casting it out of a higher level slot. Heightened Continual Fire spells dispel much higher level darkness spells then the normal spell.
If you are in an ambush or opening salvo situation, any magic that modifies or upgrades a spell is extremely useful...and if it can stack on top of a metamagic rod, all the better.
==Aelryinth
Personally I prefer the versatility of prepared casters, but I also like to have some spontaneous options as well. I loved The Chort's "God Fireball" wizard concept but didn't like Admixture as a whole. My version includes Preferred Spell (Dragon's Breath) as his weapon of choice, while using the Foresight school for it's awesome abilities.
However, I also wanted to add a bit more options to his spontaneous spells and decided that the Spellbinder Archetype can get me pretty close to what I was looking for. The key is to pick spells that you will usually use ONE time in EVERY combat, Such as: Mirror Image, Haste, Fly, ect. Or chose spells that may come up situationaly, but when it does, you use them a lot such as Teleport, Dispel Magic, ect..
Take it a step further and implement Fast Study with a few open spell slots and you have a prepared caster with spontaneous blasting, semi-spontaneous utility, and spell slots available for any other situation that may come up.
I'll take that any day of the week over a straight up prepared / spontaneous caster.
Personally I prefer the versatility of prepared casters, but I also like to have some spontaneous options as well. I loved The Chort's "God Fireball" wizard concept but didn't like Admixture as a whole. My version includes Preferred Spell (Dragon's Breath) as his weapon of choice, while using the Foresight school for it's awesome abilities.
Glad you liked my idea! Fireball certainly isn't the only spell you can use within that concept. I think it works well and I certainly enjoyed making the much maligned fireball into a more respectable spell.
I actually had an earlier version of the build as a Foresight Diviner, in fact. Being able to sacrifice unused divination spells is very handy, since those spells are particularly situational.
Oh noes - seriously? Play sorcerers and oracles, it actually doesnt matter at all whether you understand why wizards and cöerics are more powerful or not.
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I'm amazed this hasn't been said yet (as far as I can see, I might have missed it), but I've been throwing up between a sorcerer and a wizard and there's one thing which is a dealbreaker:
Spell level progression.
Always being a level behind the wizard in what they can cast just doesn't work - I'd rather lose out on spontaneous casting.
Can't remember off the top of my head if this is the same deal with the oracle vs cleric.
I'm amazed this hasn't been said yet (as far as I can see, I might have missed it), but I've been throwing up between a sorcerer and a wizard and there's one thing which is a dealbreaker:
Spell level progression.
Always being a level behind the wizard in what they can cast just doesn't work - I'd rather lose out on spontaneous casting.
Can't remember off the top of my head if this is the same deal with the oracle vs cleric.
It is.
Being one spell level behind doesn't work?
What about all the multiclass spellcasters. Or characters who are not spellcasters?
Wizard, Cleric, and Druid are certainly not the only three classes that are playable in the game.
How dare you insult my favorite class!
*tries to Hex the OP*
I can eventually learn every spell in the world. You can hardly beat that.
Also preference, say I want Demiplane so I can start building my own hideout, I'd hate to have it and just one more spell I can throw for the rest of the level. Yay, demiplane and spell X for Y amount of months.
Pearls of power, staffs and spell-storing items give me more than enough spontanious spells. Using the implanting rules, my wizard currently has 10 level one spells stored in his back, half of them are cleric spells that my friend casted for me. 10,000gp gives me ten more level one spells with pearls of power.
But level one sucks you say? Well, say that to Intensified 10d6 Shocking Grasp x10.
I can eventually learn every spell in the world. You can hardly beat that.
Also preference, say I want Demiplane so I can start building my own hideout, I'd hate to have it and just one more spell I can throw for the rest of the level. Yay, demiplane and spell X for Y amount of months.I find joy and contentment in both my sorcerers and wizards, because I don't try to play them as the same class. They're not despite the fact that they share a spell list. In fact, that's the only thing they have in common besides d6 hit dice. and decent will saves.
When you factor in mythic rules, the spells that a sorcerer doesn't know become much less of an issue, especially those that are the type he'd only cast once in a blue moon.
I always end up in a gestalt game, so I don't think I'll ever get a chance to try mythic as it'd be so much power. Even though I'd love to try an Archmage for the simple ability to cast low level spells all day.
Tho I have to admit that a dual bloodline dragon/elemental dragon disciple sounds like so much fun. I also think Cha is a way better stat than Int, sure it gives more ranks, but a high Diplomacy, Bluff and UMD goes a loooong way.
So a greater number spells to cast and better use of metamagic giving you far greater tactical flexibility, against a slightly slower spell progression and potentially less diversity (refer you to the human sorcerer note from earlier).
I'll take Sorcerer any day.
<please accept the following comment as a light-hearted bantering, I like both Sorcs and Wizards alike>
Did you seriously just claim that sorcerers have a greater tactical flexibility? Please turn in your pathfinder id badge :)
Seriously though, just two days ago, we were playing a battle where we were warned in advance of some 30 level 4 barbarians with 6 Advanced Trolls coming to attack a village, well over the EL of our 5 member level 9 party. Knowing full well what we were up against, we were able to prepare for the battle. I swapped my typical spells for a broader arrangement of aoe battlefield control spells, and several options to mitigate troll regeneration.
I tossed a phantasmal web onto the 6 trolls, which marginalized their effectiveness and our enlarged monk and barb/ranger with the help of some fireballs from the rogue, they cleaned them up nicely. (Which I would not have been able to do as a level 9 sorc doesn't have level 5 spells)
While they took care of the trolls, I turned my attention to the 15 barbarians on my side of the map. a Stone Call and an Obsidian Flow (which I intended for trolls, but we destroyed them too fast) later, all but 2 were stuck solid to the ground. Then after going to town with several preferred spell dragons breath AOE's the threat was over. I then turned my attention back to the other 15 barbarians on the other side of the map to help the other party members clean up.
Of course, my familiar was tossing out the enlarge person's and Haste from the wands she carries. After all, buffing others is a waste of my actions.. let the familiar do it :)
All in all only our rogue took any damage, and I took care of over half the mooks by myself, and neutered the Troll threat before it even started. As a Sorc, we still win the battle, but it would not have been as easy a fight.
Tactical flexibility favors the Wizard. Especially when they can prepare ahead of time.
..., just two days ago, we were playing a battle where we were warned in advance of some 30 level 4 barbarians with 6 Advanced Trolls coming to attack a village, well over the EL of our 5 member level 9 party. Knowing full well what we were up against, we were able to prepare for the battle. I swapped my typical spells for a broader arrangement of aoe battlefield control spells, and several options to mitigate troll regeneration. ... Tactical flexibility favors the Wizard. Especially when they can prepare ahead of time.
That was why I said earlier that it depends largely upon your GM, campaign, and group.
Again...
we were warned in advance of some 30 level 4 barbarians with 6 Advanced Trolls coming to attack a village
With our current GM, I have played a full campaign up to 15th level and better than half of 2 more campaigns. As best I can remember, we have NEVER gotten close to that detailed of information about what we are going to be facing. Even when spending money for spies and using spells for information, we have never gotten anything like that. Probably the closest I would have been able to get if I really worked hard at it is something along the lines of:
"A raid by better than 2 dozen primitives or tribesmen and some of them look like very large humanoids."I could have interpreted that as anything from base goblins with a few bugbears to feral gnoll barbarians with fire giant leaders.
I would have known it would be a good idea to have AoE spells (which most sorcs have at least one of anyway) but would not have known what to prepare for the very large humanoids.
I have played with groups, GM's, and campaigns where a wizard/cleric often does get the info to prepare. Then yes a wizard/cleric can really shine.
Currently I have a set where he does not. I tried a wizard with this set. Since I almost never knew what was coming and was virtually never given safe time to fill slots, I basically had the same list of spells almost every day. I changed it only between my walking around town/just gathering info/combat not expected list and my heading into the dark/this will be bad/combat expected spell list.
Even then alot of the same spells were on both lists. I was practically shoehorned into playing like a very bad sorcerer with about thrice as many skill points.
A recent adventure in my home game illustrated one advantage of a spontaneous caster.
The party witch, not really planning on teleporting at all one day but wanting an emergency escape if needed, prepared Teleport once. The party summoner also had that spell as a known spell, and his level and charisma let him cast it or another 4th level spell twice per day if he wanted to. We got into an encounter that for a moment looked like it would be a TPK. On his turn, the witch teleported out, taking one party member and one corpse with him (none of the rest touched him when he asked them to). Soon thereafter the encounter was resolved, and the summoner teleported out as well to look for him. Upon finding him, the summoner asked if he could teleport back on his own. The witch couldn't, but the summoner only had to dismiss his eidolon to bring the witch and the other player character back to the rest of the party.
Sometimes flexibility can be a powerful thing.
A recent adventure in my home game illustrated one advantage of a spontaneous caster.
The party witch, not really planning on teleporting at all one day but wanting an emergency escape if needed, prepared Teleport once. The party summoner also had that spell as a known spell, and his level and charisma let him cast it or another 4th level spell twice per day if he wanted to. We got into an encounter that for a moment looked like it would be a TPK. On his turn, the witch teleported out, taking one party member and one corpse with him (none of the rest touched him when he asked them to). Soon thereafter the encounter was resolved, and the summoner teleported out as well to look for him. Upon finding him, the summoner asked if he could teleport back on his own. The witch couldn't, but the summoner only had to dismiss his eidolon to bring the witch and the other player character back to the rest of the party.
Sometimes flexibility can be a powerful thing.
I don't get it. The witch teleports out with a guy and a corpse, then the summoner teleports out, and soon he wants to teleport back, why couldn't the summoner teleport the witch, one guy and a corpse with his 2nd teleport? How does dismissing Eidolon bring the party together?
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well... if the DM wont allow to buy scrolls and such, the spontaneous castersd get alot better...
since the wixard shall have as many known spells and fewer to cast.also - getting any metamagic you need without preparing is SO great.
Yes, if the GM is drastically changing the game from its predisposed state which specifically has rules that determine if a caster can purchase scrolls, which towns you can find spellcasters in, and so forth, then yes you could make the wizard seem less appealing. Of course, then the wizard could still use spell-research and fill out his spellbook but it would take more downtime.
In a world where only stone and bone weapons and hide armors are available, warriors look a lot less attractive too. Of course, that's not the game described in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.
Damn this thread makes me feel like sorcerers need a boost when compared to wizards.
Sorcerers got a boost with Ultimate Equipment in form of rings of spell knowledge, into which you can teach any spell and replace them again and pages of spell knowledge. Both items then let you cast the spells as if you knew them.
A sorcerer can have a spellbook now with a lot of spells and if needed just teach the right spell into the ring of spell knowledge.
Besides the overpowered human alternative favorite class bonus for sorcerers.
I stand by the greater flexibility comment - for that one encounter your wizard was fore-warned about how many have you had, at best a limited response to?
Also the various powering up of spells cuts both ways AND the Sorcerer will get to play more freely with his meta-magics, better pacing his spells to the adventure. Oh, and a sorcerer can buy/use scrolls too so that argument is invalid, in fact Sorcerer's get use magic device plus usually have a high charisma so they have a practical edge there too.Nah, Sorcerer everyday for me.
If you aren't taking prodigious use of your knowledge skills as a wizard to better prepare yourself for the kinds of battles you may be facing, or if your DM is just being difficult by not allowing your knowledge checks to divulge the needed information, then yes a sorcerer will be better able to handle the randomness of the encounter, because they can spam the spells they know.
However, a wizard has more flexibility in the kinds of encounters they can handle, and if needed, can prepare multiple spells of what he needs. In the encounter I mentioned I had prepared slow twice, assuming it would come in handy against the vast number of enemies. Yet due to being well prepared, I never needed to cast even one.
Most meta-magic is best handled via lesser meta-magic rods. What you really want meta-magic for is boosting damage spells. In my case, I can freely add meta-magic to my preferred spell, making me just as effective as a sorc in the damage department if not more so due to only requiring a standard action.
My particular build also includes the spellbinder archetype. I can semi spontaneously swap any spell I have prepared with several bonded spells. Need to teleport more than once? I can do that.
So yes, there are certain advantages to having the ability to spontaneously spam certain spells, but there is a lot to be said for a caster that can use knowledge to prepare in advance for encounters they'll face.
How does knowledge help you know what spells to prepare?Helps you identify your enemies type and weaknesses from whatever description your intelligence gathering finds.
Thanks TOZ, I'll add some examples to expand on what you said:
Say your mission is to go fight a dragon that has been terrorizing a nearby village. You ask around and its told that its a red dragon. Well, a quick knowledge check will tell you to leave the fire spells in your book and prepare some cold based spells. Also, better prepare some Resist Energy (fire), and perhaps a communal stoneskin to ease the pain of those multiple attacks. Also, they tend to have lower dex's, if you can drain that dex down to zero with a Bestow Curse and Touch of Gracelessness, perhaps you can ground the dragon for the duration of the fight.
Say your mission is to recover an artifact in a dungeon. A knowledge history may tell you some vital information about the artifact, such as it being cursed, and it's original owner built many constructs. Best prepare spells that deal physical damage instead of traditional magic, as you are likely to face a few constructs along the way, as well as a remove curse.
In other words... Use those knowledge's if you are a wizard so that you can be prepared for what you're facing. If you don't, then you are just a weaker version of a sorc. Everyone has their go-to everyday spell lists, but a prepared wizard is hard to beat.
Spontaneous casters also get a better deal form meta-magics e.g. heighten spell - because it gives the spells you have a greater ability to respond to circumstances.
You think?
Well tell me then, do spontaneous casters and prepared casters use metamagic rods the same way?| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
here's the pros and cons as i see them of all the spell casting classes in their generic form.
Arcane
Alchemists:Pros:bombs,mutagen,healing and dealing the poison and drugs out to your enemies and allies, flexible spells known per day(SKPD). Cons:spell list is limited, need materials for magic, can be expensive, need to lug around formula book.
Wizard:Pros: flexible SKPD, specialization enhances field of magic, gain difficulty in casting two other fields of magic, mostly unlimited spells available to learn. Cons: you are focused towards a field of magic, difficulty casting opposition spells unless you take opposition research twice (unless you are a sin specialist in which case lose access to two other fields of magic!), lug around spell book, if bonded item: need item to cast spells, if familiar: carry around an animal that can get killed, needs to prepare spells.
Sorcerer:Pros:bloodline grants unique ability and bonus spells, all the spells you know you can cast without preparation, unlimited spells available. cons: inflexible SKPD, bloodline power focus towards specific theme of spells.
Magus:Pros: spell combat, martial weapons proficiency, armor utilization, flexible SKPD, flexible between front line and back line combat. Cons:spell availability limited until later level but still limited, spell book, spell focus towards combat only, needs to prepare spells.
Witch:Pros: your spell book has legs/wings/fins, flexible SKPD, unique hexes, healer, patron bonus spells. cons: limited spell availability, familiar dies so does your spellbook, needs backup cannot stand alone, needs to prepare spells.
Summoner:Pros:Eidelon, summoning skills, doesn't need to prepare spells, knows all their spells, eidelon form flexible. cons: reliance on summoned creatures, inflexible SKPD, limited spell availability.
Bard:Pros:great social skills and magic, bardic knowledge, performances, greater access to spells and armor, healer, no need to prepare spells, know all the spells you can wield. cons:Limited spell access, inflexible SKPD, heavy focus towards performance and need limited performance rounds a day.
I don't get it. The witch teleports out with a guy and a corpse, then the summoner teleports out, and soon he wants to teleport back, why couldn't the summoner teleport the witch, one guy and a corpse with his 2nd teleport? How does dismissing Eidolon bring the party together?A recent adventure in my home game illustrated one advantage of a spontaneous caster.
The party witch, not really planning on teleporting at all one day but wanting an emergency escape if needed, prepared Teleport once. The party summoner also had that spell as a known spell, and his level and charisma let him cast it or another 4th level spell twice per day if he wanted to. We got into an encounter that for a moment looked like it would be a TPK. On his turn, the witch teleported out, taking one party member and one corpse with him (none of the rest touched him when he asked them to). Soon thereafter the encounter was resolved, and the summoner teleported out as well to look for him. Upon finding him, the summoner asked if he could teleport back on his own. The witch couldn't, but the summoner only had to dismiss his eidolon to bring the witch and the other player character back to the rest of the party.
Sometimes flexibility can be a powerful thing.
Weight limits. The Eidolon was one too many to bring along.
==Aelryinth
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So a greater number spells to cast and better use of metamagic giving you far greater tactical flexibility, against a slightly slower spell progression and potentially less diversity (refer you to the human sorcerer note from earlier).
I'll take Sorcerer any day.
<please accept the following comment as a light-hearted bantering, I like both Sorcs and Wizards alike>
Did you seriously just claim that sorcerers have a greater tactical flexibility? Please turn in your pathfinder id badge :)
Seriously though, just two days ago, we were playing a battle where we were warned in advance of some 30 level 4 barbarians with 6 Advanced Trolls coming to attack a village, well over the EL of our 5 member level 9 party. Knowing full well what we were up against, we were able to prepare for the battle. I swapped my typical spells for a broader arrangement of aoe battlefield control spells, and several options to mitigate troll regeneration.
I tossed a phantasmal web onto the 6 trolls, which marginalized their effectiveness and our enlarged monk and barb/ranger with the help of some fireballs from the rogue, they cleaned them up nicely. (Which I would not have been able to do as a level 9 sorc doesn't have level 5 spells)
While they took care of the trolls, I turned my attention to the 15 barbarians on my side of the map. a Stone Call and an Obsidian Flow (which I intended for trolls, but we destroyed them too fast) later, all but 2 were stuck solid to the ground. Then after going to town with several preferred spell dragons breath AOE's the threat was over. I then turned my attention back to the other 15 barbarians on the other side of the map to help the other party members clean up.
Of course, my familiar was tossing out the enlarge person's and Haste from the wands she carries. After all, buffing others is a waste of my actions.. let the familiar do it :)
All in all only our rogue took any damage, and I took care of over half the mooks by myself, and neutered...
This is a textbook situation where the wizard is favored. It even takes place at a level where the wizard gets his spells earlier.
The counter-example is: You walk into a clearing at the same time a barbarian horde accompanied by a bunch of big trolls clears the other side. Roll initiative.
...and suddenly the wizard might have real problems. Tactical flexibility does indeed favor the sorceror...STRATEGIC flexibility favors the wizard. Sorc because if he has 1-2 spells that are useful in the situation, he can use them over and over...a wizard is unlikely to be able to do so. Wizard, because if he has time and knowledge to prepare, he can simply do more different things...but he needs that time and preparation, which makes it strategic, not tactical.
That Familiar must have a pretty good UMD, heh.
You've also got some very unusual spells there, which you probably somehow acquired and yet don't count against your WBL...another fact hand-waved for many wizards.
Note that Quick Learner feat allows a Sorc to gain an extra spell and a hit point every level, which is sweet.
And a Sorc with False life effectively has his own 'semi-healing spell' stored away for multiple use, something a wizard is highly unlikely to do.
==Aelryinth