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Magic also doesn't work in normal physics. RPG worlds (and comic worlds for that matter) have magic, thus their physics are not normal physics. Also, normal biology does not allow for almost anything inside a bestiary, any bestiary, thus RPG worlds have different bological laws. If biological and physical laws different, our knowledge about the normal rules does not apply to the in world rules. I propose that the rules of physics in those worlds may allow for different rules of momentum, inertia and center of gravity, allowing any halfling strong enough (titan mauler perhaps) to swing a Large greatsword.The big problem with most of those weapons is the physics of the matter.
Nice video. We can assume cloud's sword is not zinc/aluminum. So, 60 lbs.
Even if you are superhumanly strong, the problem is the weight of the weapon throws off your center of gravity and the inertia is going to keep your body moving even if you are strong enough to handle it...your arms would stop, but your whole body would turn and your feet tear up the ground as the weight and force of the blow dragged you around.
If you extended it out to the side, your center of gravity would shift and you'd tilt and fall over, regardless of how strong you are.
Now, if you've got 'heavyfoot' and can lock your position in relative to wherever, and/or you can fly, all this becomes moot, as where you stand is no longer dependent on gravity, weight and footing.
Physics is why most of cartoon super-strength doesn't work right. The Hulk can't lift a tank unless he's right under it, because the instant he grabs hold of it, his center of gravity is going to be under the tank, and he'll just fall over, regardless of how strong he is. Unless there's a telekinetic element to the strength, it just doesn't work in normal physics.
===Aelryinth
This whole thread is about the physics of large swords. I'm just putting out there that it's not just the sheer brute strength required to wield a 60 lb sword, let alone treat it like a rapier (i.e. needing to be 20x stronger then a normal human, or about a 32 Strength). It's the fact that weight and inertia are forces of their own.
One of the things they tell boxers is that all punches come from the feet. You are pushing against the ground when you make contact with a punch, and either the ground is going to yield, or the thing you are punching is going to. A normal person with superstrength punching a steel wall is going to shove his feet back along the ground and do no damage to the wall.
So, unless you have 'heavyfoot' (i.e. tk, magic, ki, WHATEVER) to overcome inertia and the need to push off something, the physics don't work for more then just the strength reason.
It's the big reason they redid Superman's strength to include a touch-tk component...he can actually pick up and carry an ocean liner, instead of just having it collapse around him, because he's grabbing onto the entire ship at the same time, instead of just where his hands are. His flight is also telekinetic, so he can 'push off' the air when hitting something.
Most anime does the same thing...the ability to deflect incoming attack power into the ground, the way they can lock their stance and plow up the ground instead of falling over, they can 'skid' on the air, etc...there's a telekinetic aspect to their strength that goes beyond just strength.
I like to call it 'lifting with the soul'. Once strength gets past what is physically possible, magical strength certainly functions differently.
==Aelryinth
IIRC: At the Base it should be 4 Fingers if I am remembering. That is unless it is designed for Fencing. In which it was 2 Fingers. 3 was the standard for Arming Swords.
Another reason why Bows aren't used is the techniques needed to make them effective are hard to teach and learn. But Swords still see use. I believe there are 3 Marine Companies/Divisions, 2 British Companies, and 5 or 6 French Companies that are all required to learn to wield a sword & are expected to carry a sword of some type. Heck, I think one of the Scottish regiments go into battle carrying Claymores.
On the skidding on the air thing: If you are taking Bleach it is explained as a element of Hoho(Fast Movement) that involves them gathering energy and using that as a platform.
Bleach is hardly the only anime that does it. They just alternate to 'air walking' more then outright flying, because it looks cooler.
there's nothign wrong with it, either. It basically defines 'ground' as 'anything my feet are on', and throws a nod in the way of the importance of footing. If you can actually fly, your whole body is your footing, and you can ignore the whole concept of center of gravity, and nobody can see how you control inertia or getting shoved around or back.
==Aelryinth
I agree. I just like that Bleach actually gives In-World Explainations. At least for a lot of things.
Also my blade wasn't based on Inuyasha. It was actually based on Ascalon the Dragon Reaver. Though Ascalon was described as a Greatsword with the Weight of a Dagger and took the form of a Long dagger/Short Sword when Sheathed and when drawn it became a large blade capable of cleaving a dragon in-twain.
In fact the swords final form was a +5 Impact Holy Dragonsbane Greatsword. We are currently working on making an Artifact based on it combined with the rest of Ascalon's powers.
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This is what I envision when I think "Greatsword"
I also prefer my magic weapons to look like extremely well made, elegantly simplistic real weapons
(ignore my semi-okay artwork)
This is what I envision when I think "Greatsword"
I also prefer my magic weapons to look like extremely well made, elegantly simplistic real weapons
(ignore my semi-okay artwork)
You drew that? That's pretty cool.
The Paladin looks a little...fruity though. He looks like he's about to break into a dance at any moment.
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This is what I envision when I think "Greatsword"
I also prefer my magic weapons to look like extremely well made, elegantly simplistic real weapons
(ignore my semi-okay artwork)
You drew that? That's pretty cool.
The Paladin looks a little...fruity though. He looks like he's about to break into a dance at any moment.
The Chelaxian Tango is a Dance of Warriors. Do not mock it.
Iomadae herself was a master. It is known.
Drawn better than my typical artwork...
I actually was thinking more of "The Shuffle."
This is what I envision when I think "Greatsword"
I also prefer my magic weapons to look like extremely well made, elegantly simplistic real weapons
(ignore my semi-okay artwork)
I rather like the artwork.
The weapon though, looks more like a Longsword or maybe a Bastard Sword than a Greatsword, in my opinion.
Generally speaking, you can't wield something that's over 2/3rds of your height in one hand. That's about the size of a Historical Greatsword.
You're not supposed to wield a Greatsword in one hand though, it's a two-handed weapon.
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And by "Historical Greatsword" I mean something like this
You're not supposed to wield a Greatsword in one hand though, it's a two-handed weapon.
He's not wielding it. He's holding the thing. It's a non-combat pose, dude. Parade rest, that sort of thing.
My vision of a life-sized greatsword
Is that you?
And Greatswords could be wielded 1-Handed but only when they were correctly sized for the wielder.
Wouldn't that 'generally speaking' bit apply to a Bastard Sword? Normally you can't, but with the exotic proficiency feat you can.Generally speaking, you can't wield something that's over 2/3rds of your height in one hand. That's about the size of a Historical Greatsword.This is what I envision when I think "Greatsword"
I also prefer my magic weapons to look like extremely well made, elegantly simplistic real weapons
(ignore my semi-okay artwork)
I rather like the artwork.
The weapon though, looks more like a Longsword or maybe a Bastard Sword than a Greatsword, in my opinion.
I'll cede that, but PF is out of sync with real weapons, and I try to project them onto my GMing and playing because oversized blades make me physically twitch.
I was just demonstrating what a real greatsword looks like proportionately next to a human body. That's about what the real thing looks like, in terms of size.
But the game is fantasy, so, y'know, do whatcha like.
Okay then... But that person is probably shorter than normal considering the other weapons behind them.
Though I can honestly say I am better with a Claymore wielded 1-Handed with a Buckler than a Claymore wielded 2-Handed.
My own personal preference is a weapon whose hilt ends at my Temple.
Well, the PF iconic barbarian wields a huge sword - with appropriate penalties for a large weapon - so it's not surprising that the aesthetic is popular around here. I always think of Pathfinder as 'high fantasy' and roll with it. I like Amiri and think the background story about her sword is pretty cool too.
Practically though, I've swung an actual zweihander, and they're much heavier that you would think from watching movies or whatever - swinging an 8 lb sledgehammer or even a 23 oz. framing hammer can pretty much wear you out by the end of the day, trust me, I know. Anything over 25 lbs. would be so ridiculously slow I wouldn't even consider it as a weapon. Of course, we live in the age of firearms, so it's pretty irrelevant from a practical standpoint anyways, right?
Bottom line - huge swords are a pretty minor thing to quibble about in a setting where magic can raise the dead, contact and summon creatures from other planes of existence, move mountains, conquer nations, etc. Geez, give the martial classes big swords, they're going to need them.
Amiri's sword it is mainly the Width but I get hers being larger than normal blades.
But you also have to remember that her blade was used as the Picture for the Greatsword in Ultimate Equipment.
Note that for weight, we're talking about PC's who are much stronger then a normal person nowadays, with the upper levels being 2-4x stronger then any human who has ever lived.
That doesn't deal with the physics of inertia, but once you start getting into that Strength range, your strength isn't physical anymore, anyways.
==Aelryinth
As an amusing point of note, I'm currently playing a 400 pound, 8 foot tall, barely-large Tiefling (whose Large Arms Trait the DM was courteous enough to house-rule into functioning like the weapon-size aspect of Powerful Build/a racial Strong-Arm Bracers effect) whose primary weapon is a 96 pound Heavy Weapon (Platinum) Mighty Sword.
and i am playing the loli who will ride the giant tiefling's shoulder.
As an amusing point of note, I'm currently playing a 400 pound, 8 foot tall, barely-large Tiefling (whose Large Arms Trait the DM was courteous enough to house-rule into functioning like the weapon-size aspect of Powerful Build/a racial Strong-Arm Bracers effect) whose primary weapon is a 96 pound Heavy Weapon (Platinum) Mighty Sword.and i am playing the loli who will ride the giant tiefling's shoulder.
I hope you two never get lost and have to try to find your way on your own...
get lost? i always know my way back to my night job.
sweet bleach reference though
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i feel ashamed i just got that ...
loli spends time serving drinks at a vampire brothel.
a half nymph dhampir sorceress and an onispawn with a sword nearly 20 lbs heavier than herself.
This whole thread is about the physics of large swords. I'm just putting out there that it's not just the sheer brute strength required to...Magic also doesn't work in normal physics. RPG worlds (and comic worlds for that matter) have magic, thus their physics are not normal physics. Also, normal biology does not allow for almost anything inside a bestiary, any bestiary, thus RPG worlds have different bological laws. If biological and physical laws different, our knowledge about the normal rules does not apply to the in world rules. I propose that the rules of physics in those worlds may allow for different rules of momentum, inertia and center of gravity, allowing any halfling strong enough (titan mauler perhaps) to swing a Large greatsword.The big problem with most of those weapons is the physics of the matter.
Nice video. We can assume cloud's sword is not zinc/aluminum. So, 60 lbs.
Even if you are superhumanly strong, the problem is the weight of the weapon throws off your center of gravity and the inertia is going to keep your body moving even if you are strong enough to handle it...your arms would stop, but your whole body would turn and your feet tear up the ground as the weight and force of the blow dragged you around.
If you extended it out to the side, your center of gravity would shift and you'd tilt and fall over, regardless of how strong you are.
Now, if you've got 'heavyfoot' and can lock your position in relative to wherever, and/or you can fly, all this becomes moot, as where you stand is no longer dependent on gravity, weight and footing.
Physics is why most of cartoon super-strength doesn't work right. The Hulk can't lift a tank unless he's right under it, because the instant he grabs hold of it, his center of gravity is going to be under the tank, and he'll just fall over, regardless of how strong he is. Unless there's a telekinetic element to the strength, it just doesn't work in normal physics.
===Aelryinth
Then I guess we actually agree. Your first post made me think you were against it being possible in game. If you're just noting that it would be impossible in real life but may be acceptable in game if the world allows for that kind of comicbook feats of strenght and/or there is magic involved(belt of giant strenght can be the excuse here)), then I completely agree.
You know, by that logic the belts of attribute increasing stop being christmas ornaments and plain number enhancers and start being awesome itens that give all those secondary powers needed to explain stuff. Belts of strenght give the tactile telekinesis to wield large things without losing balance, over extending or breaking the materials.Probably could think of similar awesome allowing stuff for belts of dex and con too.
That's what I always liked about the Whateley Academy series of stories. All of the super-strong types (after a certain point) have some kind of TK ability to help them out. The "Brick" types are usually referred to as PK Supermen, they subconsciously emit a skin-tight field of psycho/telekinetic energy that absorbs impacts, allows lifting of weights measured in tons, and flight. Always though just saying it outright instead of hiding it somewhere got a lot of the "Well that's physically impossible!" arguments out of the way from the get-go.
Yeah, artists draw way-too-big swords. They also draw women who somehow can twist their spines such that you can see both breasts and both buttocks at the same time. Or pauldrons that use more metal than the whole rest of the suit of armor. There's just something in the pigments or Adobe software that results in brain plaque that disconnects them from reality, okay? Show some compassion!
To be graciously sexist, we forgive them the women, at least.
==Aelryinth
some of the pathfinder iconics also have outfits that, while attractive, are highly impractical.
how long do you think it takes Meresiel to unfasten all those buckles for a potty break?
but fantasy for years has handwaved the issues of these impractical outfits, so we can handwave the issues of a giant sword just fine.
I can't help but think of how some Military Uniforms that existed had even more buckles than Merisiel but they weren't used to wear the clothing. They were used to carry things the Soldier needed.
I guess I am one of the few that doesn't suffer from the Bigger is Better Fallacy.
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Whoa whoa whoa, don't diss on Guts swords. It's the only oversized sword that's actually treated like an oversized swords. He is a rather formidable man that has trained with oversized weapons since he was a kid. And he wields it properly, not like a butter knife, unlike those other characters.
On a side note, you should totally watch/read Berserk. It's awesome, even if you don't typically like anime/manga.
I'll add: you should totally read Berserk, ESPECIALLY if you don't like anime. Berserk is the standard bearer of the whole dark fantasy genre in comic books - it just happens to also be a (stunning, original, visceral) manga with amazing drawings, interesting characters and a great story.
It's not that 'Bigger is Better' but rather that 'Huge is Cool sometimes' I think.
Those 2 Tropes are related...
Given its uses in the Moorcock novels, including once being wielded as lightly as a rapier, Stormbringer is a bastard sword, usable in one or two hands.
==Aelryinth
--Statement redacted for referencing the wrong Elric--
And wow wrong Elric but still got ninja'd.
Considering that Wheel of Time has a sword made of glass and runs on the logic that "Katanas are just better", it just ignored the big greatsword trope and ran with a completely different one.
And I thought Ice was always described as being a pretty big honkin' sword?
Ice is described as being a Valyrian Greatsword. Which in ASoI&F is realistically usable 1-Handed (though with Penalty). But it was described as being Forged for a Man larger than most.
I'd use Elric's buckler as an example instead of Stormbringer.
I'd use Elric's buckler as an example instead of Stormbringer.
You wouldn't happen to have a Link to a Picture would you?